Justice -?- ?-

[VineBranch]

With UR showing us that all will eventually be reconciled to God, what becomes of our notion of justice?

Does our concept of wrongs committed against others undergo a transition as well? 

How will wrongs be re-dressed?

Does forgiveness subsume all?

Can there truly be such a thing as repentance?

[redhotmagma]

what do you mean by justice?  That is kinda like gospel  :happy3: :icon_joker:

IMO wrongs will be re-dressed through love, eye for an eye is buried in the ground, weak and useless as it was.  The fire of God's presence, his orgy of love poured out will burn away all the dross leaving all in the image of Christ.

[lomarah]

Once we all see what was causing the wrongs we will be able to mete out justice in truth and forgiveness will be the only option.  :HeartThrob:

[VineBranch]

what do you mean by justice?  That is kinda like gospel  :happy3: :icon_joker:

IMO wrongs will be re-dressed through love, eye for an eye is buried in the ground, weak and useless as it was.  The fire of God's presence, his orgy of love poured out will burn away all the dross leaving all in the image of Christ.

I wasn't talking about the definition of justice, more the notion of justice.  The inklings, and glimpses, and head scratches you get from being alive and having seen life lived in front of your very eyes.

For example ...

Under ET:

You tick God off, he sends you to hell.
You tick man off, he and Messrs Smith and Wesson send you to hell.
(kinda symmetrical)

Then you find out there is no hell:

You tick God off, he sends you to Spokane.
You tick man off, and they come live with you in Spokane.
(Hell just got redefined, but it kinda still exists ie. where you are.)

Then you find about UR:

You tick God off and he says "You will eventually run into my open arms because you know I love you and you love me, and we will be reconciled; this was my plan all along".
You tick man off and he ... now what?  There is no re-dress.  They wind up living in Spokane alone, and where is the justice in that?

[sheila]

O' I think He has a certain 'justice' in mind.  THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SPEND ETERNITY

    TOGATHER!!!!! LOL!!! Perfect Justice!!

[lomarah]

 :laugh: Now there's punishment enough hahaha!!!

[VineBranch]

O' I think He has a certain 'justice' in mind.  THAT WE ALL HAVE TO SPEND ETERNITY

    TOGATHER!!!!! LOL!!! Perfect Justice!!

It's interesting, that was actually Jean Paul Sartre's definition of hell (No Exit).  The UR definition of justice is the former definition of hell. Nice.

[sheila]

LOL!  well..what may be a 'trial' for us now...I THINK WILL BE PURE JOY WHEN WE ALL ARE PERFECTED!! :laugh:

[Lazarus Short]

I think VB, that in view of the forgiveness we will all receive, our petty vindictiveness, our tit-for-tats, our sense of justice will be humbled by God's Mercy.  You must understand the Jubilee principle - debts, monetary, civil, criminal, moral, are all canceled.  Mind you, there will be justice meted out in God's judgments of this world and its people, but it will be mitigated with mercy.  The parable of the farmer who paid all his help the same it very instructive here.  God's rewards and mercies are His to dole out as He sees fit, and man's vision of justice does not enter into it.  Picture in your mind a White Throne Judgment accompanied by executions, long jail terms, fines, lashings, and an eye-for-an-eye for every injustice committed since the Apple Incident.  It would be Hell, dude!   

[VineBranch]

Agreed.  It's just UR seems to change the fabric of understanding.  It is more than just linguistic (you have no idea how much it pains me to write that phrase); it's about the canvas itself, not just the picture. The whole reason most people I know have a notion of justice is that they see wrongs.  They see wrongs as things which need to be addressed.

If I may, I'll tell you what has happened to me in the last two months or so.  The understanding that all will be reconciled to God has replaced almost everything which had separate mental places for me.  Love is not an issue I can debate because God shows His ultimate love by not only His patience, but also His understanding.  Hell doesn't even exist as a topic, unless it's as a quip or something, like, to hell with hell and good riddance, who in hades needs hell anyway.  But as a genuine topic of discussion ... it has gone the way of the eight-track.  So, not only did UR wipe out hell, it wiped it out as a valid point of conversation.  I'ld rather read a book than discuss hell:  it's just that unimportant.  It's right up there with how many angels can dance on the head of a pin:  which has always seemed a discussion for pinheads anyway.  It just seems like UR is so important, it makes a lot of things unimportant.  I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.

[Lazarus Short]

I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.

Faith will cease to be when the things we have faith in become real.  8-tracked.

Hope will cease to be when the things hoped for arrive for us.  8-tracked.

Love will never cease, for it is the woof and warp of God and His redeemed universe.

Consider how God has dealt with sin and injustice - He laid down the eye-for-an-eye rules in the Law, and waited for it to become clear to us that the Law was not enough to bring forth the fruits of righteousness.  Then He died for us, in our place.  That was a totally unexpected solution to the problem, and the only one which could have succeeded.  If we insist that we only want justice and what is (or should be) coming to us, God has something far grander in mind than justice, retribution, revenge, or getting even.

[sheila]

 that was beautifully put. :iagree:

[VineBranch]

I was just wondering what happens to those things which were once the bread and butter of understanding Christianity.

Faith will cease to be when the things we have faith in become real.  8-tracked.

Hope will cease to be when the things hoped for arrive for us.  8-tracked.

Love will never cease, for it is the woof and warp of God and His redeemed universe.

Consider how God has dealt with sin and injustice - He laid down the eye-for-an-eye rules in the Law, and waited for it to become clear to us that the Law was not enough to bring forth the fruits of righteousness.  Then He died for us, in our place.  That was a totally unexpected solution to the problem, and the only one which could have succeeded.  If we insist that we only want justice and what is (or should be) coming to us, God has something far grander in mind than justice, retribution, revenge, or getting even.

But I don't want justice, I just want to know what happened to it.

[Lazarus Short]

But I don't want justice, I just want to know what happened to it.

I think it will get eight-tracked, just like faith and hope.

[shawn]

I think the undercurrent of this thread is the reason we have a tough time with guilt, shame, giving and accepting forgiveness.  Justice says we must pay for our wrongs...grace says we are forgiven.  Our carnal minds love the concept of justice, but is that Gods mind?  I believe Gods idea of justice is very different than our own.  Let me give you a for instance...

Woman has abortion, later deeply regrets it, has nightmares, post traumatic stress, seeks help...accepts Gods forgiveness...forgives herself...uses her journey as a blessing to those suffering after making the same decision.  Was their consequences?  Yes.  Were the consequences there for pure punitive retribution?  No.

Gods justice must be an extension of His agape love since that is how He defines Himself.  There is no love in punitive retribution.  Justice as an arm of love brings about change, purification, and unification.

How this will work after death I do not know.

[VineBranch]

Gods justice must be an extension of His agape love since that is how He defines Himself.  There is no love in punitive retribution.  Justice as an arm of love brings about change, purification, and unification.

But only love can be an extension of love.

Your response still doesn't answer the question where where did it go, it just asks another question:  where did it come from?

I think the answer lies somewhere near here:  it never was!  In a humano-centred thought it takes on artificial importance, in a God-centered thought God is all in all, and the rest is dross.

[Lazarus Short]

I think the answer lies somewhere near here:  it never was!  In a humano-centred thought it takes on artificial importance, in a God-centered thought God is all in all, and the rest is dross.

I think you're getting close, so very close. :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)

[misszoolander]

Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)

Agree 100%.

Justice is not complete, until both companies can forgive one another.

[sheila]

great thread!!!!

[eaglesway]

In my opinion, The only justice God requires, ultimately, is that we SEE HIM CLEARLY. Then we will SEE CLEARLY what we are and what we have done so that we can SEE CLEARLY what He has done for us. Then we will SEE CLEARLY whether we ought to(if we can) make restitution and DECLARE FULLY our culpability and REJOICE that God has FULLY FORGIVEN US. Since no one can pay for their sins and no punishment can re-mediate sins and no one can fix the fissure in the relationship between man and God but God- who has done it through the sacrifice of His Son, JUSTICE IS ACKNOWLEDGING the sufficiency of that sacrifice for our sins AND FOR ANYONE WHO HAS SINNED AGAINST US. This to me is REPENTANCE AND FAITH TOWARDS GOD, from among the the foundation doctrines of Hebrews 6.

Any and all punishment/kolassis/pur meted out, whether many stripes or few, is not to provide payment or to equal the balances- THAT CANNOT BE DONE BY PUNISHMENT OR WORKS OR RESTITUTION.

Any and all punishment/kolassis/pur meted it out is ONLY TO HELP ONE SEE, to open the eyes of the blind, to consume the veil that covers the eyes of the hearts of the adversaries, operating in the form of bringing light that is fire to darkness/flesh/veils.

Once the person/being SEES, JUSTICE IS RENDERED. Anyone who does not glorify God in the moment of their conviction, has not seen. Thus, into the lake of fire(now or then, same principle).

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart. Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
(2Co 3:14-16)

Those who have not turned to the Lord remain veiled/blinded/in darkness.

But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
(2Co 3:18)

Those who have turned to the Lord are being JUSTIFIED from glory to glory, from vision to deeper vision as the veils are removed in progressive sanctification thru the spirit of grace.


But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
(2Co 4:3-6)

Those who have not seen are lost. We are the lamp set upon the Lampstand, the City set on a hill. The darker it gets the more clearly we will shine- For God who has commanded the light to shine out of the darkness has shined in our hearts to give the light........

and the earth was without form and void and darkness covered the face of the deep, and the Spirit hovered over the face of the waters, and the voice of the lord said, 'LET THERE BE LIGHT, and there was light and god saw that it was good, and there was evening and morning, the first day :o)

this is the FIRST DAY. Seeing Jesus crucified(evening) and raised from the dead(morning) to conquer sin and death. Repentence(evening, experiencing the revelation of the cross) and faith towards God(morning, the all sufficiency of God in our lives)
:2c:

[redhotmagma]

 :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[eaglesway]

Oh man, the glory of God's grace just overwhelms me. I am so glad I am on a "need to know" basis. All I need to know is Christ and Him crucified.  :HeartThrob:

[VineBranch]

Forgiveness is the greatest justice. It involves accountability(acknowledgment by the transgressor) and reconciliation(acceptance of the broken and contrite heart) by the one transgressed against. That is why mercy triumphs over judgment. That is why....
Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.
(Psa 85:10)

Agree 100%.

Justice is not complete, until both companies can forgive one another.

Sort of ... forgive them it will teach them a lesson?

[eaglesway]

Well, more like, forgive them and the grace of Christ's cross will be the light shining through you to consume their veils of darkness and open their eyes to the goodness of God ;o)