No man enters heaven

[Molly]

Oh, excuse me then.  I must have misunderstood what you meant by "errant, contradictory, and falsehoods."  Maybe you could reword it for me so I could understand better.

I  do not need to reword what I stated. I am not responsible for your opinion as you choose to read my remarks and then arrive at the opinion they reflect the intent to bash the Bible. Stating facts is not bashing.
My signature reflects my opinion. It is a quote copied from the Tent maker website. I think if someone cares to do the research they will find the evidence to suit themselves. Or not.


Or one could venture to Tentmaker.org and read the articles there. Article 1, the myth of the Bible, is a good start I would think.  Or perhaps one could research what Biblical scholars have to say. Professor Bart Ehrman's work, one of many BS, comes to mind.

I do hope that helps your understanding.
God Bless.

So are you saying it's a fact that the Bible is errant, contradictory, and contains falsehoods?

[jabcat]

LD, I've talked with Gary before when another member had made similar statements regarding his writings on the site, and his response generally was that was not his intent (to "diminish" the scriptures) and he believed his statements had been misinterpreted to present a view of the scriptures that he doesn't actually have.  He has said repeatedly that he wants there to be a respect for the scriptures in the discussion forum.

Before we move forward in this particular discussion, please review the following link;

http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791

Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

p.s.  I'm also in the process of contacting Gary to see if there's anything he wants to add or perhaps clarify.  Thanks.

[LordsDaughter]

James,
My intention in replying to the OP author who implied their confusion about whether or not a soul enters Heaven after death, was not in any way intending to disrespect scripture.
Rather, it was to relate an understanding, an accord if you will, that in reading the scripture it is very easy to be confused as to what is the answer to that inquiry. As there are varying scriptures that relate two different points. As I demonstrated in brief in my initial reply.

I do not see what Scholars have noted about scripture, being there are no autographs available for review today, as the final canonized version that's come down to us as the KJV, and other versions, being errant, contradictory our false as disrespectful of scripture.

As noted in my reply above, with an excerpt from the Bible Myth article at Tent Maker.org, and as my signature relates and as was copied from TM.org itself, it is understandable that throughout the generations the varying interpretations and translations of scripture through the ages from Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, would lose something in the process.
Personally, and with all respect, I do not think it serves as spiritual manna to ignore what Biblical Scholars alone have noted regarding the errant factor of the written words of men within the Bible. As the Tent Maker site itself noted, in the excerpt above while paraphrasing here, the Holy Spirit speaks to the faithful innately.

Certainly, speaking to what Gary himself noted on his own site is not bashing. Rather it is reiterating what he's noted about the Bible itself. If his intention was not to communicate what he wrote there I agree with you in that perhaps he should make a correction so that his true intent is made clear. As it stands what I've read of his articles thus far does not substantiate a fundamentalist evangelical point of view.
I don't think a new member can be held responsible for inferring his point of view from what he himself is responsible for posting on his own site so that the reader may thus be informed accordingly.

I appreciate your insight and look forward to Gary's input.

God Bless.

[jabcat]

I've emailed Gary for his comments and to see if there are any clarifications he'd like to make and/or have input in general re: the discussion.

In the meantime, let's please continue to operate in the discussion forum as noted in the link I provided.  Thanks, James.

[jabcat]

Gary responded that the link to TM Expectations re: the scriptures "pretty much sums it up".  He also offered to correspond by email to answer any specific questions about it.  He can be reached at gary@tentmaker.org.

Thanks, James.

[eaglesway]

I think it is easy enough to clarify if one believes that the errors we are dealing with are related to mistranslation and the morphology of language and the theological prejudices of certain translations- on the one hand

and a belief in the integrity of the scriptures when presented as they were, spoken by the Spirit as expressions of the Logos, the mind of Christ, the image of the invisible God, on the other hand.

The Spirit certainly does "innately" explain things to the faithful, which is how I was able, eventually, to overcome the devastating errors (both purposeful and accidental) of the primary English translations and reach an understanding that God would have no man suffer forever and that the Lord Jesus Christ would eventually redeem and restore all of creation.

I do however also thank God that through the use of interlinears and parrallels and lexicons and dictionaries a mediocre student such as myself could find the clear truth presented in the scriptures as they were meant to be.

I am also thankful that God is not really all uptight about what anyone believes about how time works or doesnt, or how sheol or heaven mesh or don't or how and when one sleeps or wakes in relation to that DAY when the veil is rent and every eye shall see Him and exactly how we experience it after physical death.

"We see through a glass darkly", said Paul, a man who had been caught up to the third heaven and heard words so transcendent he could not repeat them among men.

Love one another says John.

Peace y'all

[LordsDaughter]

I think it is easy enough to clarify if one believes that the errors we are dealing with are related to mistranslation and the morphology of language and the theological prejudices of certain translations- on the one hand

and a belief in the integrity of the scriptures when presented as they were, spoken by the Spirit as expressions of the Logos, the mind of Christ, the image of the invisible God, on the other hand.

The Spirit certainly does "innately" explain things to the faithful, which is how I was able, eventually, to overcome the devastating errors (both purposeful and accidental) of the primary English translations and reach an understanding that God would have no man suffer forever and that the Lord Jesus Christ would eventually redeem and restore all of creation.

I do however also thank God that through the use of interlinears and parrallels and lexicons and dictionaries a mediocre student such as myself could find the clear truth presented in the scriptures as they were meant to be.

I am also thankful that God is not really all uptight about what anyone believes about how time works or doesnt, or how sheol or heaven mesh or don't or how and when one sleeps or wakes in relation to that DAY when the veil is rent and every eye shall see Him and exactly how we experience it after physical death.

"We see through a glass darkly", said Paul, a man who had been caught up to the third heaven and heard words so transcendent he could not repeat them among men.

Love one another says John.

Peace y'all

Thank you for putting my point of view in a different way. Well said! All of it actually, but particularly that part. Perhaps your phrasing will help to clear the glass. ;)

God Bless.

[MusicLover123]

Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust.

Act 23:6 Now Paul, knowing that the one party is of Sadducees, yet the other of Pharisees, cries in the Sanhedrin, "Men! Brethren! A Pharisee, son of Pharisees am I. Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged.

I just do not see how Scripture makes a big deal about the "hope/expectation of the resurrection of the dead" yet at the same time we get a "free ticket" to this carnal man's version of a physical Heaven. If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection, what point is of the body? What point is of the resurrection of the dead? Why is death our ENEMY? Not only our enemy, but the LAST one? If we life before a resurrection, why would it be a "victory" If we can live with that enemy still present?

Still unsure on what "Heaven" exactly "is," but remember, these words are Spirit and are only Spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!

[marie glen]

Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust.

Act 23:6 Now Paul, knowing that the one party is of Sadducees, yet the other of Pharisees, cries in the Sanhedrin, "Men! Brethren! A Pharisee, son of Pharisees am I. Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged.

I just do not see how Scripture makes a big deal about the "hope/expectation of the resurrection of the dead" yet at the same time we get a "free ticket" to this carnal man's version of a physical Heaven. If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection, what point is of the body? What point is of the resurrection of the dead? Why is death our ENEMY? Not only our enemy, but the LAST one? If we life before a resurrection, why would it be a "victory" If we can live with that enemy still present?

Still unsure on what "Heaven" exactly "is," but remember, these words are Spirit and are only Spiritually discerned.

1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!

hi, ML.. [  :2c: ] I think of Bible prophecy, the Book of revelation and the bible itself as one whole 'story'.. and as a history.. All history once we're in the following ages.. Not that there isn't tons of spiritual lessons in all these things! But I guess I believe the 'prime directive' is it is history and is teaching all "in heaven and earth" the difference between, and the full understanding of good and evil. Which I think is also - or is life and death/nonlife. God being life and also perfection.

To sum it up, what we are learning (the basic underlying ALL truth - I'm not sure what I mean by that..)
Is this.. pluck the leaf off the tree. (And what happens? ...To the leaf.)

Have you ever kept a compost heap? that leaf plucked off the tree, will literally burn. It is consumed, and heats up while doing so.. Like a slow motion burn. It shrivels up until it is gone. The result of missing the mark - because it's the opposite of God/Life. God is perfection, the imperfect character cannot survive. Can anyone in the universe think of a better way for all to totally learn this? Than our share of experience? And to witness this horror? - History bearing witness that life w/o God / not built on the Rock, can only crash n burn, individual and collective. All of it ordained in one sense, and random in another.. :2c: :2c: I really liked EW's reply just above, and I love how exchange of thought here is peaceful.. A good fruit/evidence for U.R! :thumbsup: Most topics I find, are an issue of "and" not "or".. But some places, not quite on that page, can be kind of brutal!

[Good news is, Perfection makes no mistakes, cannot lose anything.. Does every thing He does, in such a way (surely?) to bring about the utter Best 'end' result.]

[MusicLover123]

Whoops, I did not mean that Scripture is not historical. I'm not one of those ultra liberals that takes everything as just a "good story" that did not actually happen.

Never been to a compost myself, unless you are also talking about a garbage dump! I have been to those before. Those stink!

Speaking of learning and discerning good and evil, have you ever noticed that the 2 are inseparable? You can't know one without the other. Not that evil is just this too powerful monster that is egregiously powerful to handle. It won't be around forever either, but an experience given now to humble us (Ecc 1:13)

These verses also may/may not have relevancy, but thought it applied do to you mentioning good fruit....

1Ti 4:12 Let no one be despising your youth, but become a model for the believers, in word, in behavior, in love, in faith, in purity.

Col 4:5  In wisdom, be walking towards them who are without,—the opportunity, buying out for yourselves,
Col 4:6  Your discourse being always with benefit, with salt, seasoned,—that ye may know how it behoveth you, unto each one, to be making answer.

Php 3:17 Become imitators together of me, brethren, and be noting those who are walking thus, according as you have us for a model,
Php 3:18 for many are walking, of whom I often told you, yet now am lamenting also as I tell it, who are enemies of the cross of Christ,
Php 3:19 whose consummation is destruction, whose god is their bowels, and whose glory is in their shame, who to the terrestial are disposed."
Php 3:20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 Who will transfigure the body of our humilation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.

[rosered]

Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!

  I have always felt , that the written word is for the carnally minded , many live in that fear of the unknown God , I recall   not understanding it and taking it at face value

  I believe the Spoken Word is when   we are born again from above and experience those things and  began a  discerning between the     what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh    and also the fruits of those   doings  and what manner of spirit we are of ....   BEGIN   to  HEAR WHAT THE Spirit  is saying all done by faith  of God  working in us  ..

I believe we are judged by the WORD spoken to us  and what begins to live in us and what is appointed and anointed of God when it becomes a Living WORD   in you   BY THE SPIRIT  OF THE LIVING GOD ....

     This being a   HOLY WORD , the Christ / anointing is in you the hope of glory to GOD     THE HOLY  SPIRIT OF THE FATHER & THE SON ....     and returns to Him as fulfilling ,''all things''   in  each and everyone called according to GODS WISDOM   and purpose

  So much more depth  of   GODS  LOVE ,,,,,,,,,GOD IS LOVE     ...17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth of His love, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God....


  :HeartThrob:

[marie glen]

If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection..

I know, right? If we're all 'going to heaven' (and at death) then what is the resurrection at His return.. and what are we to make of Revelation 21 when the New City Jerusalem comes down out of heaven "to the earth".. I think that sounds so much better than lounging around on clouds all day.. or existing w/o a body.. or all as one in the extreme of one big blob of consciousness.. :laughing7:

Whatever the universe is, it seems to me He has created it to be inhabited.. Just because it's been subjected to vanity (imperfect, subject to death and decay) doesn't mean the original glory isn't still intact and very much a part of the blueprint (of what He is creating?)
   just :2c: :Peace2:

Whoops, I did not mean that Scripture is not historical. I'm not one of those ultra liberals that takes everything as just a "good story" that did not actually happen.

Oops.. I should have known that.. or that is, I didn't mean to imply that :gsmile:
That attitude always baffles me.. like where do they draw the line? Many think genesis is metaphor, the beginning, and revelation, the end (of course Rev is told using much symbolism and maybe even metaphor, haven't really thought about that.. symbolism, yes.. even types.. oops, headed down the rabbit hole (of talking about bible prophecy). The virgin birth? The crucifixion? The resurrection? Bible prophecy already occurred? If prophecy already occurred isn't metaphor alone, then why should other bible prophecy be metaphor alone? Of course raining down sulphur and brimstone upon an unrepentant world may be metaphor.. or then again.. maybe not, there's plenty of sulphur and brimstone type stuff already, that's been unleashed plenty of times..

Speaking of learning and discerning good and evil, have you ever noticed that the 2 are inseparable? You can't know one without the other. Not that evil is just this too powerful monster that is egregiously powerful to handle. It won't be around forever either, but an experience given now to humble us (Ecc 1:13)

Ecclesiastes 1:13
13 And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.

"Have to know both good and evil".. I agree! One not knowing the difference? Patooey!? spit out like salt that's lost its savor? "worthless" - not that He won't fix it! :cloud9:

who to the terrestial are disposed

...another version (or was that a different verse? read it today, can't remember..) says "who glory in their flesh" rather than glorying in God and what He does!
   :thumbsup: Great verses!

[marie glen]

Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!

  I have always felt , that the written word is for the carnally minded , many live in that fear of the unknown God , I recall   not understanding it and taking it at face value

  I believe the Spoken Word is when   we are born again from above and experience those things and  began a  discerning between the     what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh    and also the fruits of those   doings  and what manner of spirit we are of ....   BEGIN   to  HEAR WHAT THE Spirit  is saying all done by faith  of God  working in us  ..

I believe we are judged by the WORD spoken to us  and what begins to live in us and what is appointed and anointed of God when it becomes a Living WORD   in you   BY THE SPIRIT  OF THE LIVING GOD ....

     This being a   HOLY WORD , the Christ / anointing is in you the hope of glory to GOD     THE HOLY  SPIRIT OF THE FATHER & THE SON ....     and returns to Him as fulfilling ,"all things"   in  each and everyone called according to GODS WISDOM   and purpose

  So much more depth  of   GODS  LOVE ,,,,,,,,,GOD IS LOVE     …17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth of His love, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.…


  :HeartThrob:

I definitely think God's written word can be taken carnally, or understood carnally.. And we can't understand it until it is spoken to our heart. Otherwise it seems to bear bad fruit.. I mean look at the pharisees who plotted and killed Jesus, would have killed Lazarus.. then requested the prisoners on the cross, legs be broken.. who earlier wouldn't enter Pilate's residence to not be defiled for the Passover meal (eaten on 1st day of Unleavened Bread coming up when the sun went down)... whitewashed graves!

I love how Jesus said on His last eve here.. "come and eat and drink" - and how often do we need to eat and drink? And what do we eat and drink? The bread and the wine. Our daily bread and the new wine of God's Presence come because of what Jesus did/paid.. [Redeemed us, "redemption".. we're being recycled.. :laughing7: ]

More and more, I think of the New Testament especially, as our loaf. We are to eat it and digest it. Not relying on our own heart, for as Jeremiah says, the ehart is deceitful above all things.. and psalms? "lean not unto your own understanding" - Not to say we are not guided by His Spirit.. But I believe it always aligns with and is His Word.

Just today I did a study and posted on my blog (http://innermonastery.wordpress.com - what is life?) -

I came across the word "hagnos" in a verse, Greek word #0053 which led me into an interesting study.
     Hagnos – free from ceremonial defilement, holy, sacred, pure, chaste; originally, in a condition prepared for worship. (Hagnos)
     This made me think of Revelation chapter 14, where it talks about the 144 thousand "purchased from the Earth as firstfruits, who are virgins, pure, and not defiled with woman. (Revelation 14:1-4) And I wondered "is it the same word?" (#G53)
     It's not the same word, it's #G3933, parthenoi. I found myself studying the context. They are virgins — the Greek interlinear reads: with woman (#G1135) not have been defiled (#G3435 – soil, stain, pollute). And they are parthenos, #G3933) – a maiden, virgin.
     Twice, is the reference of being unstained by woman. Now why would it say that!?
It's obvious. That 'other' religion, from the time of Cain and all through the centuries and ages, has always been female. Satan making trouble right from the get go, using the mysterious female principal as genesis of life, origins, God. "Hidden mysteries!" (Of such were the Gnostics). All those versions of a mother god.. faint memories of Eve corrupted? spread through the world..
     This word "pure" brought me back to the original  verse I'd been reading, in Philippians, verse 4:8 – Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think on these things.
     "Whatsoever things are true" – alethes – true, unconcealed (G#227).
Then I remembered Revelation 14:1 – And I (John) looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing upon Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.
     Hallelujah! To have His name and the name of the Father written on one's forehead! A virgin, chaste, unsoiled forehead. And not just one seal, but a double seal! A triple sealing if we reckon in the "seal upon the heart" a "pledge" of "ownership" and "promise" (of 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:14).

(And this crowd is "Firstfruits"! - Definite U.R. connection!)

More and more I think of His Word as our programming to be.. But not if we don't eat and digest it! (Which of course we all do, or we'd be talking empy wind :laughing7: ) I think lots of 'churches' are getting kind of crazy out there, due to letting go of God's Word, the Logos - spoken word(the greek) and God breathed/inspired the Word.. study to show thyself approved.. rightly dividing.. Thy word is truth.. the renewing of our mind by the washing of the Word.. Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus, but also the spoken and revealed/written, because spoken to the hearts and ears of those elected to write.. Otherwise is too easy for all to be going every which way..! Exactly what seems to be occurring in some quarters of 'the church' in the world.. :Chinscratch:

I do get excited about God's word.. (I use a reading schedule called, enter the story schedule of reading, https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html) God bless you Rosie!

[Dandelion]

2 Corinthians 12:

1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up into Paradise. The things he heard were too sacred for words, things that man is not permitted to tell.

If Paul didn't know, I think it suffice to say that it is not something that we can know, either. The above sounds like a life after death experience, to me. Some things just don't translate into the way we look at life, and afterlife, now. We are far too limited to understand all the nuances that can exist.

We also have verses like the following:

2 Kings 2 New International Version (NIV)

Elijah Taken Up to Heaven
2 When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel."

But Elisha said, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel.

3 The company of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?"

"Yes, I know," Elisha replied, "so be quiet."

4 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here, Elisha; the Lord has sent me to Jericho."

And he replied, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went to Jericho.

5 The company of the prophets at Jericho went up to Elisha and asked him, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?"

"Yes, I know," he replied, "so be quiet."

6 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here; the Lord has sent me to the Jordan."

And he replied, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So the two of them walked on.

7 Fifty men from the company of the prophets went and stood at a distance, facing the place where Elijah and Elisha had stopped at the Jordan. 8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground.

9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?"

"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.

10 "You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not."

11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.

13 Elisha then picked up Elijah's cloak that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 He took the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it. "Where now is the Lord, the God of Elijah?" he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.

15 The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, "The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha." And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. 16 "Look," they said, "we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley."

"No," Elisha replied, "do not send them."

17 But they persisted until he was too embarrassed to refuse. So he said, "Send them." And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. 18 When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, "Didn't I tell you not to go?"

I don't think the confusion is how an event is presented, but whether we can accurately put it into words. And, whether we have the understanding of what the possibilities are to truly be able to explain it. And, we cannot see what it looks like from the 'other side'.

My humble  :2c:

D.

[Dandelion]

Just looking at fb, and saw this:

To be absent from the Body, is to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8

Now, I knew that one, but didn't think to include it. I will chalk it up to the influence of the Holy Spirit.       :dontknow:

D.

[MusicLover123]

Regarding 2 Kings, here is one email reply I found from Ray. He has wrote a lot more on it, which I have yet to get to, but I thought this covers it well:

you say jesus is the only person who went to heaven . how about elighji who god took and moses who talked with jesus in the garden before his crusifiction
     
    Dear Henry and Mabel:
    Heaven is both a location as a direction--UP from the earth, the air, the atmosphere, the sky.  And, it is a realm as in "The Kingdom OF heaven."
     
    Elijah was transported through the air, the sky, to a different location.  Later Elijah wrote a letter from a different location where he was living (II Chron. 21:12).  As for Moses and Elijah in the so-called "mount of transfiguration," it was not a physical, literal event:  "And behold, there APPEARED unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him...and as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead"  (Matt. 17:3 & 9).  It was a VISION.  It never "literally" happened. It is a VISION, not unlike a dream that takes place in one's mind, NOT LITERALLY in the flesh.  Besides, Heb. 11 tells us clearly that Enoch (Ver. 5), Abraham (Verse 08), Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and MOSES (Vers. 20-24) "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES..." (Ver. 13).
     
    God be with you,
    Ray

Also regarding Paul, pretty sure it was a vision. A VERY powerful one indeed. He still died afterward, right?

Hebrews 9:27
27and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this — judgment

We all still die, no one skips that process.

Regarding 2 Corinthians...

Ray,

    Thank you for your work.
     
    One question in regards to death.  Your paper says that when we die we lose consciousness until we are resurrected.  But how does this align with:
    2 Corinthians 5
    6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
     7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
     8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
    Here we see that while we are in our bodies we are absent from the Lord, but it says that the instant we are away from our bodies (death) we are present with the Lord.  How then are we not conscious after death before the resurrection.  By your conclusion those who have died in the Lord are not now present with him but unconscious until the resurrection. From these verses there seems to be no break in the time when we are absent from our body and present with the Lord.
     
    Please elucidate.  Thank you for your time.
    Bertram
     

    Dear Bertram:  No, it DOESN'T say that "...the INSTANT we are way from our bodies we are present with the Lord."  Where do you see that word "instant" in Scripture. Paul wrote these verses. Did Paul know when he personally would be "with the Lord?"  Yes, of course he did:  "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye [yes, but WHEN?], AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we {notice that Paul includes himself, that he will be DEAD, and 'the DEAD shall be raised.' One of those 'dead' will be Paul himself]...." (I Cor. 15:52).  So did Paul lie, and mean that he would be changed "instantly" as you suggest AT death, rather than FROM the dead, AT THE LAST TRUMP?
    God be with you,
    Ray

[MusicLover123]

A quick thought I had on NDE's. Surprised I have seen no one else think of this, from what I have seen at least. Well, maybe one person...

What if they are visions from God? Paul did not have to die to have that vision. The person still is not dead, but they also are not actually at the place they are seeing. I know WW was mentioning that there are NDE's seemingly very close to Scriptural truth. Maybe given in a parable like way, but still...

Appreciate your thoughts, too. You are very Christ-like in all of your ways. Continue to walk after the Spirit, as we continue to suffer together, whether you know it or not.  :HeartThrob:

[GodIsLove]

Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.

If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.

So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and  this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?

[Dandelion]

Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.

If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.

So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and  this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?

Just a thought....we only know about the people who want to return to earth, from NDE....I would guess, the rest were declared dead.

D.

[GodIsLove]

Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.

If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.

So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and  this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?

Just a thought....we only know about the people who want to return to earth, from NDE....I would guess, the rest were declared dead.

D.

True!  :laugh:

[marie glen]

I usually think when I die the next thing I know I will be with the Lord.. I do think it's possible there is consciousness after death (before resurrection) but I lean away from believing it because I think it downplays the harsh reality of death, which is the danger of sin ..the soul that sins shall die.. the wages of sin is death ..And it seems not logical to me that saints are in a holding place somewhere waiting for perhaps hundreds of years and more.. But that's just my :2c: I agree we don't know and won't until His return, as we are, both views, relying on scripture.. :gsmile:

[TheJason]

What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination.  We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition.  Is heaven in this universe?  Is it outside in a multiverse?  Is it anywhere that can be considered a place?  I have no idea.  It's fun to think about though.   :bigGrin:

Quantum Physics seems to answer some of these questions.   There's definitely more than what meets the eye!

[marie glen]

I have a strong sense or feeling that the universe, that is the heavens and the earth will be physical plus more! And incorruptible, not liable to decay of any sort. Maybe a finer matter? But a creation, because of verses like Isaiah 11:7 which says the lion will eat straw like the ox and how the bear will graze with the cow, a child will be able to play at the entrance to the poisonous snake den.... And in Micah (4:4?) how every one will dwell under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them. Also in a later chapter of Isaiah there's a verse that says "My people will sleep in the forest" or be able to? I can't remember and I haven't looked up the interlinear and original words used.

Surely is a lot of fun to think about!
God is good! :Peace2:

[Batty Bible Page]

I've read where the scriptures refer to the heavens as the expanse of the vault of the universe itself. Rather than a celestial abode of some sort, like an address called, "Heaven".

While Ecclesiastes 12 reminds me of those dual verses that refer to the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Heaven, being as Jesus said, within.
Verses 5~7.  
OJV = Orthodox Jewish Version
5 Also when they shall be afraid of height, and fears shall be in the derech, and the almond tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper drags himself along, and desire shall fail; because haAdam goeth to his bais olam (eternal home), and the mourners go about the streets; 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the bor (cistern). 7 Then shall the aphar return to ha'aretz as it was; and the ruach shall return unto HaElohim who gave it.

OR/
Brenton Septuagint Version

5and they shall look up, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust shall increase, and the caper shall be scattered: because man has gone to his eternal home, and the mourners have gone about the market: 6before the silver cord be let go, or the choice gold be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel run down to the cistern; 7before the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, said the Preacher; all is vanity.