I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
Our life is hidden away with (in) Christ - who is Life. We are one with him here and now, and forever more, we are his body afterall. When we leave our fleshly fallen tent, that fleshly fallen tent which acts as a barrier or veil between us and the Lord (unlike our glorified bodies which will be sinless, and not like the flesh with which we wrestle with now) will be no longer a barrier, and we will behold our Lord with a more wholesome clarity. And we will be with him, and more aware of being with him in and as spirit than we were in beholding and experiencing him through the veil of our flesh.
I like to say this - "Where ever Christ is, Heaven is also"
We are seated in heavenly places, and we are alive - embodied or not, because Christ makes us alive, and did not fail in this by any means, we are alive here and now because we are indeed alive here and now drawing nourishment form the Divine-vine, as branches, in union with Life himself.
It is just that with the fall of the fallen, sinful, body into dust, yet another barrier between us and our Lord is extinguished - though it shall be raised again and made holy in the resurrection for what ever purpose or another.
This is what I believe (I do not believe in soul-sleep at all) because soul-sleep seems to me to say that we are not alive, but are infact pretending to be alive...Heaven is about being Alive and in the presence of God, before it is ever about clouds, harps, and halos. Honestly, that's just a bonus, what ever it might be.
There is more to say about this subject, but I'd have to have some time to lay out a more detailed thesis on it.
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
I am opening up to new ideas of what heaven could be. We live in flesh which can experience 3 of the 11 known dimensions of the universe. What if death allows us to experience all 11, in the twinking of the eye? We think with 3D minds, that is why our perspective is compromised from the start. Something to ponder.
I am opening up to new ideas of what heaven could be. We live in flesh which can experience 3 (4 if you count time) of the 11 known dimensions of the universe. What if death allows us to experience all 11, in the twinking of the eye? We think with 3D minds, that is why our perspective is compromised from the start. Something to ponder.
Imagination. It is a fantastic word and it has a forming attitude in the mind of us...man....it takes hold of ones mind.
Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
the question is just what is it you believe and expect "heaven" to be. Is it a place of physical logistics? Just what is heaven to you? Is it a real place that is physical like Eden?
I repeat this verse of Jesus...Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
This is our living life, can we understand that what heaven is much greater and much stonger than our imagingation? I will say this, that most of what christianity has done to bring forth its religion and offered it to men who are very susceptible to the imagination of their minds and they can be played with(its a shame, but true) in there minds they are given to believe what ever religion offers for they do not care to find out who Jesus is, this life is more important, they do not see nor do they believe or care to understand that as Jesus said...
Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.' (or among you)
It is quite important in our walk t know that the "reign or kingdom on God is within(among) you, without that knowledge and believing we will not climb the mountain or walk through the valley. HE IS
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination. We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition. Is heaven in this universe? Is it outside in a multiverse? Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? I have no idea. It's fun to think about though. :bigGrin:
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2011, 05:23:15 AM
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination. We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition. Is heaven in this universe? Is it outside in a multiverse? Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? I have no idea. It's fun to think about though. :bigGrin:
Is heaven in this universe? No.
Is it outside in a multiverse? No.
Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? No.
Leaving it to mans imagination is what brought us to all the various imaginations as to what heaven is today. Heaven =is lofty, high up is there anything there that inspirers mans imagination to the conclusions man has today?
But it fun to think about though.... :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 12, 2011, 05:39:23 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2011, 05:23:15 AM
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination. We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition. Is heaven in this universe? Is it outside in a multiverse? Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? I have no idea. It's fun to think about though. :bigGrin:
Is heaven in this universe? No.
Is it outside in a multiverse? No.
Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? No.
Leaving it to mans imagination is what brought us to all the various imaginations as to what heaven is today. Heaven =is lofty, high up is there anything there that inspirers mans imagination to the conclusions man has today?
But it fun to think about though.... :bigGrin:
Yes, it is indeed.
Yes in deed.... is that to mean..it is fun---- to think about? Should that be true, then why wonder at all, if its mans imagination that dominates the thoughts? Yes in deed, Yes in deed.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 12, 2011, 09:18:04 AM
Yes in deed.... is that to mean..it is fun---- to think about? Should that be true, then why wonder at all, if its mans imagination that dominates the thoughts? Yes in deed, Yes in deed.
I have tried to be pleasant and ignore the tone but I must ask. What is your issue with someone wondering about heaven? Why wonder, ponder or think about anything? We are human beings, of course we are going to wonder about our heavenly home. We ache for it, long for it, so why wouldn't we wonder about it as well?
What you wrote is just what I am speaking about. I like pleasant and I cherish pleasant speak, but I when it comes to "wondering" about a "heaven" that mans religon teaches as a logistical "place." Shawn, just what do you consider "heaven" to be?
I believe and trust that it is a comfort, and peace where I walk in the spirit and know My Saviour is alive and working within...among. The kingdom of God/Heaven is within/among you....
Luk 17:21 nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.' (or among you)
I just weary of brothers and sisters who ponder and wonder about a Hollywood, storybook heaven. And I realize at times that my speach is at times abrasive, I am like that, forgive me or look over my short comings, somethings need work.
Heaven is more than a state of mind, or being. But it is also not less than a tangible, experiential existence; a Home.
If Heaven shall be perfect, and everything that Heaven is to represent is our home, our place of citizenship - then like homeless children it is very much natural and wonderful for us to think about what it will be like to have a home. Especially if it shall be perfect, then why should it not be the stuff of faerie tales, and storybooks - in the truest sense of what faerie tales and storybooks try to say?
"And they all lived happily ever after - forever and ever"
You say "man's religion" teaches it as a logistical place, and why not? Why not hope for an actual paradise worth calling paradise that we can enjoy in a literal sense as well as every other sense with our literally resurrected Lord?
I very much dislike the idea of a "Christian brand" of Nirvana.
I do not understand, "I very much dislike the idea of a "Christian brand" of Nirvana." Lefein. If you are saying that perhaps it is a good thing to have visions of a "Nirvana" (what ever that is) rather than having a knowlledge of what "I Am," IS in the life of a vessel who believes in his Creator beyond the rituals of Americas churchs, then I say take your dreams a visions that are told over the pulpit as, truth, the let it be truth.....THE TRUTH WILL MAKE YOU FREE.....Joh 8:32 and the truth shall make you free.'
A Christian brand of Nirvana, would be in essence "Heaven is just a happy state of mind" - this is a gross idea to me.
"Heaven" involves a happy state of mind. But it does not end there, a literal Home in which to literally live in every sense of the word and implication is included too.
If Heaven is nothing more than me, floating about rather uselessly in stagnant bliss more akin to the bliss that comes of ignorance, or if Heaven is nothing more than me floating in some sort of stagnant "universal bliss-conscience/mind" --- rather than true and actual perfection in which I may interact non-statically with a magnificent New Creation perfect and lovely, in every spectrum whether material or spiritual; then I think we would be quite an impoverished Humanity, and worse so - God would be robbed of the enjoyment of the rest of His Creation; birds, trees, grass, rocks, flowers, water, stars, light...etc. And He would be robbed also of the enjoyment of his children in their toys, their rooms, their yards, their inheritance, as well as His.
Being fully (with not even a hint of fallen separation) with the I AM, and being with God makes everything Heavenly - but God has not had it in his designs for mankind to merely float in static bliss, or for their bliss to exist "merely in their mind". He has a Creation for his Created, a literal place as much as it is a literally happy state of mind.
"Heaven" is not just in our heads, dear friend..."Heaven" does not just reside in our hearts, and stop there. "Heaven" is in our hearts, indeed; but we'll find ourselves literally standing in it and literally enjoying it soon enough.
Quote from: Lefein on March 13, 2011, 08:16:11 AM
A Christian brand of Nirvana, would be in essence "Heaven is just a happy state of mind" - this is a gross idea to me.
"Heaven" involves a happy state of mind. But it does not end there, a literal Home in which to literally live in every sense of the word and implication is included too.
If Heaven is nothing more than me, floating about rather uselessly in stagnant bliss more akin to the bliss that comes of ignorance, or if Heaven is nothing more than me floating in some sort of stagnant "universal bliss-conscience/mind" --- rather than true and actual perfection in which I may interact non-statically with a magnificent New Creation perfect and lovely, in every spectrum whether material or spiritual; then I think we would be quite an impoverished Humanity, and worse so - God would be robbed of the enjoyment of the rest of His Creation; birds, trees, grass, rocks, flowers, water, stars, light...etc. And He would be robbed also of the enjoyment of his children in their toys, their rooms, their yards, their inheritance, as well as His.
Being fully (with not even a hint of fallen separation) with the I AM, and being with God makes everything Heavenly - but God has not had it in his designs for mankind to merely float in static bliss, or for their bliss to exist "merely in their mind". He has a Creation for his Created, a literal place as much as it is a literally happy state of mind.
"Heaven" is not just in our heads, dear friend..."Heaven" does not just reside in our hearts, and stop there. "Heaven" is in our hearts, indeed; but we'll find ourselves literally standing in it and literally enjoying it soon enough.
Agreed. Good post.
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
Are you referring to those who believe in soul sleep? Personally I don't. I believe that at the instant I die, I will go to be with Christ.
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
Nathan,
I have many questions on this. I think I ask them in another thread?
I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know? I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now. Where Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?
(1Cor. 15:36) says "thou fool, that which thou SOWEST IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE. According to this, these bodies we have now will be resurrected. (Verse 44) says It is sowna natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. From these verses we know that these bodies will be resurrected. Knowing this, why would our spirit return to God as an active spirit, one that reasons, understands, works, speaks, all all the things our physical bodies do now? I know that it says that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". But is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.
I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?
CHB
QuoteI haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.
What about the verses that state that we are basically already with him? It wouldn't be a matter of "going to him" more than "stepping further into where we already are" - our sinful flesh being left behind to rot in the dust until it is resurrected anew and clean and glorified.
For example;
(Eph 2:5-6)
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:We are in Christ, we are his body, and he is in us - we are alive, and have eternal life because our life is Christ's life, the life of Life himself. Our life is dependent on Christ who is alive forever more - Life himself, not on our bodies, or whether or not we are in them. Our bodies are to serve us, not the other way around. (Loosely speaking; just as in the same way, we as Christ's body are meant to serve him)
Our existence as the image of God is in our spirit. Our bodies are not the "centre" of our theotic "image-ness". I do not deny that our bodies are part of that image, but our image is not dependent on our body to retain that image, because God's "image from which we are reflected" (to put it poetically) does not specifically demand a body. The Word became flesh, it did not exist always as flesh. God is Spirit, and so are we.
In putting on immortality, it refers to a change of clothes. From dirty dusty rags of sinful fallen; perishable dust --- to clean glory of resurrected majesty; imperishable wonder.
QuoteBut is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.
Our spirit is far more than mere animating fuel. Our spirit is the very breath of God himself, our Life's-being. God is Life, and God is sentient, conscious, a living being --- and God is Spirit, so our spirit is also a piece of God, a unique expression of Life and the life of an infinitely significant unique individual. It is not mere activating energy...Forgive my harshness, but to call it so is to slight God who is himself Spirit.
As for tape player, He does not need a body to function, neither do we. Our bodies serve more than a utilitarian purpose, and so its purpose is not strictly utilitarian. God is not a utilitarian God of Machines, he is the God of the living.
QuoteI guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?
We are not put back into dead bodies. We are put back into resurrected, glorified living ones (which Paul compares to a fully grown tree), which are far superior to our fallen ones (which Paul compares to a seed). You cannot have a tree without the seed dying and being resurrected as a tree - and a seed compared to a tree, is quite a high leap of majesty. And from the perspective of a seed it is awfully hard to comprehend what it is like to be a tree.
However, we are not beings who were invented for "utilitarian purposes" - that is to say, we are not God's divine little machines. We are his children, his people. Going from an active spirit with God to being embodied again is no terrible fall; our life is in our spirit, because Life is Spirit - but our resurrected bodies are as much a gift as life itself - and being a gift it is not a thing of mere utility but blessed favour; and also because it is a gift, it is not a curse or a fall from height, merely because we went from being spirit to being embodied spirits, neither does that mean that the body somehow has a strictly utilitarian necessity, God is far better than that. Our body is a gift to be enjoyed, as well as used. But just because the body is a thing we can use - does not make the body a necessity in being with our Lord, neither does it make the body a necessity in us "existing" because our "existence" is a thing maintained, given, and centered in Christ who is Life - not our flesh or the state of it (glorified or not).
In essence; Christ is The Source, not Flesh.
Lefein,
I think you kind of misunderstood some of what I said or I didn't explain myself well.
First off (Eph 5-6) is speaking spiritually. We spiritually are sitting on the right hand of God in Christ, I do not deny that. We are not literally there yet.
Quote from: Lefein
Our existence as the image of God is in our spirit. Our bodies are not the "centre" of our theotic "image-ness". I do not deny that our bodies are part of that image, but our image is not dependent on our body to retain that image, because God's "image from which we are reflected" (to put it poetically) does not specifically demand a body. The Word became flesh, it did not exist always as flesh. God is Spirit, and so are we.
From what do you base this on? How do you know that our spirit doesn't demand a body or vice versa? What if God designed it that way?
Quote from: Lefein
In putting on immortality, it refers to a change of clothes. From dirty dusty rags of sinful fallen; perishable dust --- to clean glory of resurrected majesty; imperishable wonder.
The way I understand this is, it is like putting on a coat over this changed body. I think we are saying the same thing here.
Quote from: Lefein
Our spirit is far more than mere animating fuel. Our spirit is the very breath of God himself, our Life's-being. God is Life, and God is sentient, conscious, a living being --- and God is Spirit, so our spirit is also a piece of God, a unique expression of Life and the life of an infinitely significant unique individual. It is not mere activating energy...Forgive my harshness, but to call it so is to slight God who is himself Spirit.
As for tape player, He does not need a body to function, neither do we. Our bodies serve more than a utilitarian purpose, and so its purpose is not strictly utilitarian. God is not a utilitarian God of Machines, he is the God of the living.
I don't deny most of what you say above but that doesn't prove or disprove that we will be an active spirit that goes on to be with God at our death.
Quote from: Lefein
We are not put back into dead bodies. We are put back into resurrected, glorified living ones (which Paul compares to a fully grown tree), which are far superior to our fallen ones (which Paul compares to a seed). You cannot have a tree without the seed dying and being resurrected as a tree - and a seed compared to a tree, is quite a high leap of majesty. And from the perspective of a seed it is awfully hard to comprehend what it is like to be a tree.
Here is where I see the problem. Why do we even need these dead human bodies if we are already with God and are a functional, living, active, spirit? Doesn't make any sense.
In the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died. Scriptures that say, "the dead know no anything". "Dead praise not the Lord". David said "in death there is no remembrence of thee". (Job 12:2) "wisdom die with you". (Job 14:14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME. Has that changed?
CHB
QuoteWe are not literally there yet.
Of course not, most of us aren't dead yet. Unless I'm a zombie...lol
QuoteFrom what do you base this on? How do you know that our spirit doesn't demand a body or vice versa? What if God designed it that way?
Common sense mostly.
God is Spirit - Didn't come in the flesh, or a human body until Jesus (for Trinitarians) - we are made in God's image.
If the image of God is not the body, it is most likely something to do with the spirit - or of a spiritual nature.
QuoteI don't deny most of what you say above but that doesn't prove or disprove that we will be an active spirit that goes on to be with God at our death.
Perhaps not, but it is another variable to consider in the problem. :)
QuoteHere is where I see the problem. Why do we even need these dead human bodies if we are already with God and are a functional, living, active, spirit? Doesn't make any sense.
It doesn't make sense because you're thinking in a utilitarian view.
QuoteIn the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died.
Death, Sheol, separation from God, and otherwise prevented that.
QuoteScriptures that say, "the dead know no anything". "Dead praise not the Lord". David said "in death there is no remembrence of thee". (Job 12:2) "wisdom die with you". (Job 14:14) If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I WAIT, TILL MY CHANGE COME.
These are not the full picture of our post-mortem state. It is more complicated than I can really present properly. But sufficed to say, the soul does not remain with the body, neither does the spirit. It must therefore go somewhere else, and comes back to the body - which makes the body live. The body does not make the soul or spirit live. Because the spirit is the breath of Life, being quite literally the breath of God.
1Kings 17:22 And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.
Luke 8:53-55 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
QuoteHas that changed?
A great many things changed after the cross. I wouldn't be surprised if the afterlife for a human being did too.
"Death <---cross---> Life"
In the OT there are too many scriptures that show that they didn't go on to heaven to be with God when they died.
Quote from: Lefein
Death, Sheol, separation from God, and otherwise prevented that.
But weren't those back in the OT made from God's image as well and didn't they also have the same spirit of God that we have today?
I really think there are things we are not understanding about this whole subject. I desire to understand it but so far haven't had answers to my questions that gave me satisfaction. I am not talking about your answers but all that I have read about this subject.
Where it states that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "breath".
Ok, we have the breath of God which is the life in man. When man dies this breath or part of God's life, returns to him. By the way, I think the breath/spirit that gives life to man is different from man's spirit.
Quote
But weren't those back in the OT made from God's image as well and didn't they also have the same spirit of God that we have today?
I really think there are things we are not understanding about this whole subject. I desire to understand it but so far haven't had answers to my questions that gave me satisfaction. I am not talking about your answers but all that I have read about this subject.
God is omnipresent - even in Sheol. But the Dead under the Law of Death were not in the state of Life, which is Heavenly. That came after the cross, and was a great part of Christ's purpose; "Free us from Death unto Life". :thumbsup:
Quote
Where it states that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "breath".
Ok, we have the breath of God which is the life in man. When man dies this breath or part of God's life, returns to him. By the way, I think the breath/spirit that gives life to man is different from man's spirit.
I don't see why they should be all that different in their root ideas, according to my understanding anyway.
Hopefully heaven caters computer game players and cream cake lovers!
Perhaps hard core sports in heaven is Russian roulette :happy3: I won't be playing though.
I could go for some MMORPG and twinkies with Jesus. That'd be pretty fun!
But don't let the hard core fundamentalists find out that you think this...They'd consider you a part of the "emergent" church, and that's just ever so terrible a heresy - nigh as damnable as universali...oh...wait...
To some it sounds carnal. Perhaps it is humanly, more than heavenly desires, but I would not call it carnal, if there is cream cakes in heaven I would not be eating them as some kind of carnal greedy pig, those type of carnal desires I doubt will exist in heaven, in the presence of Jesus, but an intersting question I often find myself asking is "would we have the freedom to be carnal in heaven?" But if we do then, it would be the same place on earth, but would Jesus have a zero tolerance policy in heaven? Perhaps we would have to go back to earth if we become carnal again.
God I believe once put it to me like this.
"Freewill" (yes, I must unfortunately use the dreaded word, but only for the sake of presenting the idea as I believe it was presented to me - not for debate, just for thinktank's thought)
"Freewill is not solely about the ability to choose between good and evil. It is the ability to choose between every good choice. Evil restricts choice, because evil limits freedom, there is no freedom in evil. When the choice to do evil has been Overcome; then mankind is free to do what ever they like. Because nothing will be evil, and every choice will be good. Perfect freedom."
The choice to be carnal is nothing more than a choice to go to prison. It is not a choice in freedom, but a choice that restricts choice itself.
In the garden mankind had the choice between every good tree of the garden, and the only bad thing was a single tree, which was literally the choice to have the choice between Good and Evil. When this has been overcome, there is nothing left but every good tree, especially the tree of life. If that makes sense.
I like that, Lefein. I'll have to go away and think about it for a while. :thanks:
Well, Lefein, you know what I think about the dreaded word, it doesn't exist. That is all I will say about it.
CHB
Which is why I specifically directed it at Thinktank. :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on March 14, 2011, 01:47:47 AM
Well, Lefein, you know what I think about the dreaded word, it doesn't exist. That is all I will say about it.
CHB
We are both universalists. That dreaded word is one my favourite words. I think a lot to do with might be because many here come from ET backgrounds and that word has been used for evil purposes. Shame that the doctrine brings, evil to such a beautyfull word.
Quote from: Lefein on March 14, 2011, 01:52:24 AM
Which is why I specifically directed it at Thinktank. :thumbsup:
Thank you for that word Lefein, it was a good word from God I believe, also helped me remember, when God said the same thing to me a few months ago, on this forum. I think that's one of the problems with revelation, at least in my experience, is that it's easy to forget the information, but it's good that God has his reminders there, to help, when needed or to just encourage in general and to witness and perhaps add and reveal additional info too.
:boyheart:
With those thoughts, you have no conception nor idea what "heaven" is. Needless to say, once one begins to say, tell or attempt to describe what "heaven" is with the word of mans imnagination, it is telling that that person has not one twit of knowledge of what the Word of God, the Bible speaks in words of what "heaven" is. And there in lies the weakness of the human, carnal soul, that is called man.
Micah, I just want to be sure - but are you calling us carnal for speculating about what our heavenly home will be like? The tone of that sentence does not ring very kindly, and I'm hoping that I've read it wrong.
Yes
Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.
Let's do try to remember please;
Philippians 2:3
3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
"...in honor preferring one another.." Rm. 12:10
It takes a little extra effort sometimes (believe me, I know - sometimes it's very hard for me) but we can post without either insulting, or, bringing up discouraged topics. It can be done. Thanks.
Quote from: Lefein on March 14, 2011, 04:03:27 AM
Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.
That statement alone is insulting..."while we enjoy the
speculation" just what does that mean? "about how our Father will
funish our heavenly home," let me see will that be early american, 1950s ranchette, or perhaps European. And this is quite unnerveing, "like the
hopeful little children we are trying to be"...I wanted to say more but I must stop.
My friend I have read several of your posts and and I must say that you are beyond and above a statement like this. Perhaps my speech is harsh, but I weary at how the beloved grovel at the natural and carnal offerings, of easter bunny thinking, xmas... well just all of the "things" like a mansion or cabin in heaven with all the trimmings. Silly thinking.
As per instruction... IMO, I never did that before and I hope I will not have to do it again.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/rules_and_faq/posting_as_i_understand_in_my_opinion.._8684.0.html
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
The problem is that the spirit is not the same as the soul.
The Soul does not immediately return to God, but the Spirit does! As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches! (see below) Read Psalms 146:4 again, and note it does not teach his body returns to the earth but "he" or his body perishes but "thoughts."
(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath
rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.
(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day
his thoughts perish.
Other support verses are...
(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life
(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now
I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me,
but I will not be."
(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed;
You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30
You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.
Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that
separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is
100% Greek philosophy. It is pure
Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the
same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.
Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of
existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the
immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming
incarnate (Grolier's Encyclopedia (GE)).
This definition of
"spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only
God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have
not yet been judged?
This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."
Let us now examine what
"spirit" means to a Jew. The word
"spirit" in Hebrew is
"ruah" and in Greek it is
"pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.
"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates),
Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).
Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) -
Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is
animated (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).
In other words, it is the
life force that God gives to people and animals that
animates their bodies, which gives them
life. When He takes it away
they die.
Examples:
Psalms 104:29 -30:
"When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."Ecclesiates 12:7:
"And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."Psalms 33:6:
"When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:
"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus' Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:
"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:
"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.
If we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus' breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.
So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches... (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said... Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus' tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her... John 20:17 ... Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus' body and soul died and went to hades!
You now have your bone,
Paul
:bigGrin:
Christ went to Sheol, not to Heaven, for three days.
Mat 12:40
(ASV) for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (CLV) For even as Jonah was in the bowel of the sea monster three days and three nights, thus will the Son of Mankind be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."
(KJV) For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
(Rotherham) For, just as was Jonah in the belly of the sea-monster three days and three nights, so, will be the Son of Man, in the heart of the earth, three days and three nights.
(RYLT-NT) for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
(WNT) For just as JONAH WAS THREE DAYS IN THE SEA-MONSTER'S BELLY, so will the Son of Man be three days in the heart of the earth.
(YLT) for, as Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights, so shall the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.
Jesus went to the "heart of the earth."
Is that not the grave? Sheol? Where he preached to the prisoners, and brought forth his captives?
Acts 2:31 - perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen [Sheol/Hades], nor was His flesh acquainted with decay.
No. The Word does not read that he was in the grave-sheol-hades-the pit, it reads He was in the heart of the earth. He was in the HEART (thought feelings and mind)of the earth.... what we are made of He KNEW humanity for three days and three nights...Jona got free Jesus got free to do the work, to finsih the work. Jesus died and Christ arose. I am not clear on all of these workings, but I know that the storys of religious rethoric and theology that feeds the christian belief is pagan and as empty and without merit, as Pauls example of sounding brass.
Clearly it says he was in Sheol or Hades in Acts 2:31 which is drawn from a prophetic psalm about Christ.
Psalm 16:10 For You shall not forsake my soul in the unseen; You shall not allow Your benign one to see corruption.
Or in Hebrew
Ki la thozb nphsh'i l'sheol la ththn chsid'k l'rauth schchth
Or in Greek (from the Septuagint)
For you shall not abandon my soul in Hades nor shall you give your sacred one to see corruption.
ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδην οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν
Then there is this;
Act 2:27 For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen [Hades], Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay.
Act 2:27 ὅτι οὐκ ἐγκαταλείψεις τὴν ψυχήν μου εἰς ᾅδου οὐδὲ δώσεις τὸν ὅσιόν σου ἰδεῖν διαφθοράν.
Drawn from Acts 2:22-28, which clearly speaks of Jesus being in the unseen, which is Hades - or Sheol.
Men! Israelites! Hear these words: Jesus, the Nazarene, a Man demonstrated to be from God for you by powerful deeds and miracles and signs, which God does through Him in the midst of you, according as you yourselves are aware - This One, given up in the specific counsel and foreknowledge of God, you, gibbeting by the hand of the lawless, assassinate, Whom God raises, loosing the pangs of death, forasmuch as it was not possible for Him to be held by it. For David is saying to Him, I saw the Lord before me continually, Seeing that He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken." Therefore gladdened was my heart, And exultant my tongue. Now, still my flesh also shall be tenting in expectation, For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." Thou makest known to me the paths of life. Thou wilt be filling me with gladness with Thy face.
Jesus went for three days down into Hades, Sheol, the Grave. This is what the scriptures say, and this is how the scriptures interpret the "Heart of the Earth" passage. Your interpretation has some merit friend, but it is not the sole foundational Truth of the matter; because Christ entered into Hades, and that is what the scriptures say.
---
ᾅδην
ᾅδου
Haden
Hadou
Hades - The Grave, the unseen.
And what is our life in this form but death and decay? Jesus was in the earth, flesh, death, unseen. You think you are alive in this earth body? I think not, we are dead, even tho we breath the breath of life (Gen.2:7)
Gen 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
My body made of fallen dust is dead and dying - because it is my flesh. But I, my being, is very much alive. Or else Christ has failed miserably in worse ways than "Eternal Torment" ever enforced that he had. If he cannot even make one of his very own children alive in him like he promised.
You seem to be stuck in a pre-cross mindset. We are after the cross, and things have drastically changed; Christ said "It is finished" for a good reason, and it wasn't so we could have a fancy version of Judaism, or be stuck in Sheol. It was to give us Life, to defeat Death, and to do it again, and again, and again until it is fully defeated at last when it is thrown into the lake of fire.
I am not an Adamite, I am a son of God through Christ - the last Adam. I am a new creature, gifted with eternal life - and my resurrected body is a gift yet to come. I am not my body, I am an image of God and one of his beloved living children.
In Christ, right now, this very second, I live. And I live also a resurrection life, which will fully manifest itself in Perfection when my body follows suit with the resurrection that has occurred in my Inner man.
Guess I should respond to this somewhere beings I'm the one that started it . . .
For me, nothing we share of in spiritual matters is actually factual. None of us have the full capability to even explain something as simple and popular as the subject of heaven because our minds . . .#1, can't comprehend it. And #2, have never been there. So let be begin by saying everything I share is not based on fact, proof or natural evidence. But instead, it's all based on faith . . .as what most others base their viewpoints on as well. Some may try to tell you their answers are factual because the took this or that directly from Scripture. Yet what we read out of Scripturei, if it can be literally read, then it's literally natural words, which then leads to our natural minds "perceiving" and "interpreting" what the natural words are stating through which we come to our conclusions.
And because we all have different backgrounds from each other, some be it thorugh different culture, others through different levels of knowledge, but all are nonetheless different, we will still come to different conclusions. The key is to remain one with each other as we arrive at our different conclusions . . . only those walking in the spirit can actually accomplish this because the oneness is a spiritual experience that does manifest through our natural bodies, just as much as disunity also is an inward experience that manifests outwardly as well . . .that which defiles is not what we take in, but it's what we let out. Because what we let out is the evidence of what we are in.
So . . having said that . . .by faith in my relationship with the Father TODAY . . .this is what I see. You can take it or leave it and I won't be offended either way. I started this thread out of a little frustration on the idea that even though most here embrace the fact (in faith) that all will have the same final destination in the end, and we can't seem to understand why others choose to embrace the idea that their loved ones are in hell due to the fact that they didn't say the magic words when they were alive, yet we also find ourselves doing basically the same thing, in variation of what we scratch our heads about others doing. . . .crap . . .need to do another post again.
We wonder why people "choose" to believe loved ones are in hell, and yet we ourselves "choose" to beleive we'll not go to heaven when we die. We "choose" to believe that we'll be suspended in nothingness, that we'll "not" be with our beloved Father after passing through this vapor of life, but instead we'll be nonexistant until the ultimate plan of God is fully complete at which point we'll all once again be reinstated at the resurrection of these bodies of flesh as they become transformed into immortality. We're kings and priests now, but when we die, we go back to nothingness . . .soul sleep . . . suspended state . .whatever tag you put on it . . .
Yet at the same time, clearly, Scripture reveals that those who have come and gone on before us are currently surrounding us, encouraging us, rooting for us . . .watching and observing us . . .that just seems to blow all that other stuff out of the water.
Quote from: NathanWe wonder why people "choose" to believe loved ones are in hell, and yet we ourselves "choose" to beleive we'll not go to heaven when we die. We "choose" to believe that we'll be suspended in nothingness, that we'll "not" be with our beloved Father after passing through this vapor of life, but instead we'll be nonexistant until the ultimate plan of God is fully complete at which point we'll all once again be reinstated at the resurrection of these bodies of flesh as they become transformed into immortality. We're kings and priests now, but when we die, we go back to nothingness . . .soul sleep . . . suspended state . .whatever tag you put on it . . .
I don't believe that.
This then wouldn't apply to you . . .I was just speaking in general to those who do see it to be that way . . .
Quote from: Nathan
Yet at the same time, clearly, Scripture reveals that those who have come and gone on before us are currently surrounding us, encouraging us, rooting for us . . .watching and observing us . . .that just seems to blow all that other stuff out of the water.
Nathan, could you please give me some of these scriptures? Hope you read my posts on this. If you have would you please give me your thoughts on some of the things I posted?
CHB
Read Hebrews 11 and the very beginning of 12 . . .I'll go back and read up on what you've written and go from there.
Quote from: CHB on March 13, 2011, 06:34:48 PM
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 10:49:43 PM
I've heard this comment made from time to time in various conversations over the couple of years I've been on the forum and I guess originally it just struck me kinda funny that there are those who actually beleive that when one dies, one doesn't go to heaven . . .I'm a bit baffled by this due to the understanding that there are only two places where we exist, spirit or flesh and heaven is clearly not flesh which leaves it to be in the spirit . . .so when our spirits leave our mortal bodies, how can we "not" pass on into heaven?
There are a couple of passages that seem to me, to clearly affirm this. One of which is Hebrews 12, which is actually the conclusion of chapter 11's thought. But it's speaking to us being surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, we can't see them because we're still in this flesh, yet they're there . . .how can they "not" be in heaven and yet be in a heavenly state? For me, heaven isn't so much a literal place as it is the spiritual realm opposite of "this" realm. The other passage is where Paul talks about when he's no longer "here" he'll be with the Lord . . .either "here" or "there" which again seems to be clearly stating that we "do" go to heaven once our lives in this realm are complete.
Throw me a bone here if ya would.
Nathan,
I have many questions on this. I think I ask them in another thread?
I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know? I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now. Where Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?
(1Cor. 15:36) says "thou fool, that which thou SOWEST IS NOT QUICKENED, EXCEPT IT DIE. According to this, these bodies we have now will be resurrected. (Verse 44) says It is sowna natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. From these verses we know that these bodies will be resurrected. Knowing this, why would our spirit return to God as an active spirit, one that reasons, understands, works, speaks, all all the things our physical bodies do now? I know that it says that "the spirit returns to God who gave it". But is this spirit just the power of God's Spirit that energizes this body and when this body dies the spirit lies dormat until it is reunited with the body that is dead? Think of our spirit kind of like a tape, or recording, when it is taken out of the tape player all the information is still there but it doesn't work but when it is put back into the player it is active again, one doesn't work without the other one.
I guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?
CHB
Just bringing this back to the front . . .
Okay, the one thing that I think is the hardest thing to try to take in is that ONLY this realm is confined to the natural laws . . .TIME being one of them. Time is measured and governed by the sun, moon and the earth's rotation, just to name a few . . .all of which are natural elements. Our minds have no reference point with which we could relate to what it would be like to be without the confines of time. From time, we have our conclusions of what heaven is or isn't. There may be 11 - 13 dimensions, but there are only 2 dimensions. One is natural, the other is spiritual. The spiritual dimension is the atmosphere where God lives and breathes . . .again, I speak from position of perspective through my personal relationship and my faith. I'm not basing any of this on facts because we're not talking about the tangible . . .different rules apply.
So . . right now, we operate in three dimensions, We are a SPIRIT that lives in tents of FLESH that manifests a SOUL. To try to see where we go would also involve in trying to understand who we are . .what we are . . .because this "creative" part of my core being only manifests when my spiirt is in "a" body. It's the oneness of God that we manifest. Take away any one of those three componants, the other two can no longer co-exist. Remove my spirit, my flesh dies immediatly. Or, if you stop my heart . .if you kill my flesh, my spiirt leaves immediately.
How about this . . .where does your shadow go when you turn the light off? It's immediately there . . same exact form as it always is . . .but without light's illumination, the shadow doesn't exist. I see my soul to be the same way . . .when I die, my "spirit' returns to the Father, my flesh returns to the earth and my soul stops manifesting . . .but when we enter into our resturrected bodies . . .of imortality . . like our shadow, our soul once again manifests . . .so "in that way" I would agree with the "soul sleep" concept . . .but not in the way it's been relayed in the past.
I believe I'm obviously still me after I die, I'm just not manifesting that part of me because the light in my flesh has been turned off. But my spirit is still in existence . . .it's just in a different realm.
Quote from: CHBI guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?
Because it is the spirit which quickens the body and a quickening spirit will be able to keep the body alive forever.
Because we are created to be body, soul, and spirit.
And, because Jesus did it first.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit."quickening" [spirit]
G2227
ζωοποιέω
zōopoieōdzo-op-oy-eh'-o
From the same as G2226 and G4160; to (re-) vitalize (literally or figuratively):
make alive, give life, quicken.
THREE GREAT FEASTS FOR THE CHURCH
http://latter-rain.com/escha/warnock.htm
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 14, 2011, 04:46:09 AM
Quote from: Lefein on March 14, 2011, 04:03:27 AM
Then kindly get over insulting us while we enjoy a speculation about how our Father will furnish our heavenly Home, like the hopeful little children we are trying to be.
That statement alone is insulting..."while we enjoy the speculation" just what does that mean? "about how our Father will funish our heavenly home," let me see will that be early american, 1950s ranchette, or perhaps European. And this is quite unnerveing, "like the hopeful little children we are trying to be"...I wanted to say more but I must stop.
My friend I have read several of your posts and and I must say that you are beyond and above a statement like this. Perhaps my speech is harsh, but I weary at how the beloved grovel at the natural and carnal offerings, of easter bunny thinking, xmas... well just all of the "things" like a mansion or cabin in heaven with all the trimmings. Silly thinking.
As per instruction... IMO, I never did that before and I hope I will not have to do it again.
I guess you are right that it is silly thinking in a sense. Paul said no one can imagine the things of heaven.
But with me I value heaven and also I value my human earthly life.
Psalm 139:14
I praise you because
I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
Psalm 50:10
for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.
Deuteronomy 26:11
Then you and the Levites and the foreigners residing among you shall rejoice in all the good things the LORD your God has given to you and your household.
Joshua 23:15
But just as all the good things the LORD your God has promised you have come to you, so he will bring on you all the evil things he has threatened, until the LORD your God has destroyed you from this good land he has given you.
So I know from scripture that what the lord gives us is good. So if he gave me a computer console in heaven, even though you might find it simple and crude, God gave it and it would be good.
A prophet spoke this word
I spoke great truths, profound words that changed lives and continue to do so. But I also spoke to the children. I was simple, I was clear, and I didn't lose My appreciation of little things. I stopped to enjoy the flowers. I cooked for My disciples.
It's when you can't find joy in the everyday things of life that you become complicated and lose the human touch. You exchange depth of character for a labyrinth of complex thinking, a heart that is sensitive to the things of the spirit for mere head knowledge.
Simplicity is a gift. Everyone starts out with it, but as some people grow up they discount this gift because they associate it with ignorance, naiveté, immaturity, and a lack of sophistication. They prefer to weave a web of complexity to cover it. But did I not say that unless you have childlike simplicity to believe in the "impossible" and the unseen—Me, the One who died for you and rose to life again so you could have the wonderful but simple gift of eternal life—you cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven? The gift of simplicity remains for those who have the humility and wisdom to value it and claim it as their own.
There is much to discover throughout life and even more in Heaven, but you will always find that the most profound truths, the greatest beauty, and the most outstanding wisdom are all expressed simply.
Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2011, 05:39:54 PM
Quote from: CHBI guess my problem with us going on to heaven or to be with God as a active spirit doesn't make any sense as far as these bodies go. Why put an active spirit back into a dead body if the spirit is already working, active,...if you know what I mean?
Because it is the spirit which quickens the body and a quickening spirit will be able to keep the body alive forever.
Because we are created to be body, soul, and spirit.
And, because Jesus did it first.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.[/i
Hi Molly, but why do we need the body that has returned to dust if our spirit is functioning just fine in heaven already? This is one thing that I can't seem to wrap my mind around.
One other thing. When Jesus was resurrected, so was his body. Yet, if our spirit returns to God, our body is left to rot and decay, or return to dust where it stays.
Just some things that are hard for me to accept, that is why I ask so many questions on this subject. I go back and forth on this. I just haven't seen enough evidence to prove that we go on to heaven when we die.
(Heb. 11:40) God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.
This verse tells me that no one had received the promises, {immortality} at that time and Paul said they wouldn't "be made perfect without us"...or those Paul was talking to. No one had been given immortality up to that time. One thing I wonder about is, did this change after 70AD? I don't see the scriptures that show that everyone goes to heaven now, lives two thousand years and then gets their spirit put back into the dust that they were originally in. If they lived without these human bodies for a thousand years why will they need them to be resurrected? Just questions I have that I hope someone can give me a good answer to?
CHB
THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.
What is perfect? Perfect is union with Jesus now. But then, it will be an incorruptible body.
I wouldn't worry too much about the dust business. He will not allow his holy one to see corruption.
I could clone my body today from one cell.
Surely, this can't be too hard for God to do.
I just believe we are meant to live in immortal bodies. But, we will not see death, so until then, should we lose this corruptible body, I believe we will remain alive in a spirit body [he has prepared a home for us] until the first resurrection.
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
--2Cor 5:1
" It's the oneness of God that we manifest." (Nathan)
Amen
Quote from: Molly on March 14, 2011, 08:47:07 PM
THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT.
What is perfect? Perfect is union with Jesus now. But then, it will be an incorruptible body.
I wouldn't worry too much about the dust business. He will not allow his holy one to see corruption.
I could clone my body today from one cell.
Surely, this can't be too hard for God to do.
Quote from: Molly
I just believe we are meant to live in immortal bodies. But, we will not see death, so until then, should we lose this corruptible body, I believe we will remain alive in a spirit body [he has prepared a home for us] until the first resurrection.
If we are in a spiritual body what do you think happens to these earthly bodies? Will we be reunited with it at a later date?
For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
--2Cor 5:1
[/quote]
Hi MOLLY,
I think what Hebrews 11:40 is saying is, No one had received Iimmortality up to the time Paul is saying this, because in verse 39 it says "and these all, having received a good report through faith, RECEIVED NOT THE PROMISE".
CHB
The promise is the first resurrection, CHB--imo.
They were living in tents waiting for a house built by God.
That will be the resurrected body--but, this will not happen until the fulfillment of the Gentiles.
God has gone to a lot of trouble to identify us down to the color of our last hair with a code so complicated that it would fill a library.
"If you unwrap all the DNA you have in all your cells, you could reach the moon 6000 times!
"
Why would he go to all that trouble, CHB, unless he intends to preserve my big brown eyes for eternity? :icon_king:
But, he is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living.
Because of Jesus, we will not die.
Why would he go to all that trouble, CHB, unless he intends to preserve my big brown eyes for eternity? :icon_king:
I'm falling for you Molly :boyheart:
LOL. Better wait for the resurrection TT when I'll be 16 again. :icon_flower:
But, it's true, isn't it? Why would he go to so much trouble to identify each one of us down to the last little detail if he is just going to throw it all away in so much dust?
God is amazing.
The dead bones of Israel comes to mind. God paints new skin on them. Unless one wants to go skeletal? :happy3: It might be the new "look".
:icon_jokercolor:
Kinda hard to read "into" all the embedded questions along with the comments. Over all, I think we can agree to say that since Christ, there have been no more physical resurrections. And for me, it's only when all three componants are in operation that we are actually completely perfected . . .spirit in a body causing the soul to manifest life. For those who've died physically, they are spirits without bodies . . .incomplete beings. The completion comes when the 7th Day is at rest and the 8th day has arrived. We are just now entering into the 7th day . . .this world is just now experiencing the affects of the changing of the spiritual climate . . .again, that's why there are more and more Rob Bell's popping up, God is building up a church that is true and illuminating as opposed to the one man has built that is personalized-by-deceit and based on fear and intimidation.
What we see happening in the natural is what God is doing in the spiritual . . .has done in the spiritual . . .natural disasters are said to be increasing . . .earthquakes . . .a shifting of foundations beneath the surface of what can be seen. Hurricanes that are born over oceans . . .climactical change growing over spiritual waters and invading the land. Tornadoes . . .results in clashing of atmospheric preassures . . .volcanoes fire from within pouring without . . .God is speaking on many levels to the earth, to our flesh, announcing change is coming to the world . . .the timetable he set into motion is coming to a close. That's a "good" thing . . .
Quote from: CHB on March 13, 2011, 06:34:48 PM
I am pretty sure before Christ was resurrected, no one went to heaven when they died. After he was resurrected, I don't know? I haven't seen a verse that convinces me that we do go to be with Christ now.
I have the same thoughts as you C.
In the OT we read about soul sleep. We can argue what exactly that is; but the word sleep seems to indicate it isn't the real deal.
It seemed to happen to men of God too. Samuel was asleep.
When Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper He sealed a wedding deal between Himself, Father and the bride (believers)
The next day He paid the "bridal prize" on the cross.
YLTJohn 142 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
That preparing typically took 1-2 years. Time often has some twist in the Bible. A day is day or year or thousand year. So it's hard to say what exact time we are speaking about.
For OT people there was no room to go to, the bride wasn't paid for yet, in fact the father of the bride hasn't agreed yet. It takes only little imagination what would happen if couple (OT people) that wasn't even engaged were caught being with eachother. Also read that the house of the father (God) of the groom (Jesus) has many (bridal) rooms. Those rooms are in heaven. So for me it's sure OT are not in heaven.
Another hint is that souls are sleeping under the altar. I'm aware that verse isn't directly linked to marriage but again we see sleeping souls.
For me it's sure the first time people to enter heaven is during the rapture. I know the word rapture raises some hairs in the necks of many readers but I'm sure it brings across what I'm saying.
So CHB, figure out when the rapture takes place and you know when people go to heaven.
YLTRev 69 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony that they held,
10 and they were crying with a great voice, saying, `Till when, O Master, the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge and take vengeance of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'
11 and there was given to each one white robes, and it was said to them that they may rest themselves yet a little time, till may be fulfilled also their fellow-servants and their brethren, who are about to be killed--even as they.
Note the altar is in heaven so technically the souls are in heaven too.
YLTEccl 127 And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.
Maybe that verse solves some problems. OT people are in heaven but they sleep. Samuel was there to when the witch of Endor called him. I imagine a perfected body has an endless amount of energy so doesn't need to rest at all.
There are lots of trumpets in Revelation but when a man was going to get his bride he sounded a rams horn (trumpet) in the middle of the night. Many brides to be sleep at night.... :-)
QuoteWhere Paul said, we would "PUT ON" our immortality, makes me wonder if we won't keep these bodies and they will be changed when we put on spirituality?
Just guessing a bit... The bride saved money all her life to look good for the groom. That included 'skin care products' and of course a nice dress. Maybe that dress has a little label in the neck reading "immortality" :-)
I always wondered how I look in a pink dress with my size 12 hiking boots :laughing7:
Hi WhiteWings,
Good to see you, or read you I should say. :happygrin: Thanks for your post. So much to think about, I certainly do not have it all figured out yet, may never get it all in this life time but it is fun trying to figure it all out. Ho[e you stick around, have missed you!!!
CHB
WhiteWings, and me thinkin' you had left from our midst, Im sure glad to see me debatin' friend back at his post! Heres a gald your back friend. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
I think the OP question gives rise to once again recognizing the contradictory nature of Bible scripture and how it can cause confusion on the issue of whether or not souls return to Heaven after they die.
Perhaps it's the same quandary that occurs when it is proposed through scripture that humans are born as sinners after being pure souls in Heaven. (Philipians 3:20 - For our citizenship is in heaven...)
John 3:13 (NASB)
13 No one has ascended into heaven, but he who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.
In my opinion when we are souls in Heaven after we die we return from whence we came. To accept, especially after Jesus death on the cross, that we are today born sinners and thus the fate of our souls rests in either sentence to hell or heaven, is to not only imply Jesus failed in his mission to earth, but is to say that God not only plays chess with himself as the omniscient architect of our destiny according to his plan, but that he is a sadist in the process of being all knowing in the course of play.
I think that's why it is not wise to garner one's faith in God from scripture. When the Bible is errant, contradictory and contains falsehoods, it can only be confusing to take those words of men as holy writ, when they propose to describe a supreme being that by that very nature would find it impossible to inspire an errant text as a message to the people his power would give birth to for all time.
We are not allowed to bash the Bible on this site, LD. It's against the TOS.
Plus, it's annoying.
What I find annoying is to be accused of something for which there is no evidence. Your opinion is not proof of my intent.
I am not bashing the Bible. That was not nor would it ever be my intent.
I am entering this discussion, while citing scripture to make my point and reply to the OP.
Oh, excuse me then. I must have misunderstood what you meant by "errant, contradictory, and falsehoods." Maybe you could reword it for me so I could understand better.
Quote from: LDI think that's why it is not wise to garner one's faith in God from scripture. When the Bible is errant, contradictory and contains falsehoods, it can only be confusing to take those words of men as holy writ, when they propose to describe a supreme being that by that very nature would find it impossible to inspire an errant text as a message to the people his power would give birth to for all time.
Quote from: LordsDaughter on September 05, 2012, 03:38:57 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 05, 2012, 03:11:43 AM
Oh, excuse me then. I must have misunderstood what you meant by "errant, contradictory, and falsehoods." Maybe you could reword it for me so I could understand better.
I do not need to reword what I stated. I am not responsible for your opinion as you choose to read my remarks and then arrive at the opinion they reflect the intent to bash the Bible. Stating facts is not bashing.
My signature reflects my opinion. It is a quote copied from the Tent maker website. I think if someone cares to do the research they will find the evidence to suit themselves. Or not.
Or one could venture to Tentmaker.org and read the articles there. Article 1, the myth of the Bible (http://www.tentmaker.org/Biblematters/bible-index.htm), is a good start I would think. Or perhaps one could research what Biblical scholars have to say. Professor Bart Ehrman's work, one of many BS, comes to mind.
I do hope that helps your understanding.
God Bless.
So are you saying it's a fact that the Bible is errant, contradictory, and contains falsehoods?
LD, I've talked with Gary before when another member had made similar statements regarding his writings on the site, and his response generally was that was not his intent (to "diminish" the scriptures) and he believed his statements had been misinterpreted to present a view of the scriptures that he doesn't actually have. He has said repeatedly that he wants there to be a respect for the scriptures in the discussion forum.
Before we move forward in this particular discussion, please review the following link;
http://tentmaker.org/forum/rules-and-faq/moderatortm-expectations-regarding-the-scriptures/msg84791/#msg84791
Thanks, James.
p.s. I'm also in the process of contacting Gary to see if there's anything he wants to add or perhaps clarify. Thanks.
James,
My intention in replying to the OP author who implied their confusion about whether or not a soul enters Heaven after death, was not in any way intending to disrespect scripture.
Rather, it was to relate an understanding, an accord if you will, that in reading the scripture it is very easy to be confused as to what is the answer to that inquiry. As there are varying scriptures that relate two different points. As I demonstrated in brief in my initial reply.
I do not see what Scholars have noted about scripture, being there are no autographs available for review today, as the final canonized version that's come down to us as the KJV, and other versions, being errant, contradictory our false as disrespectful of scripture.
As noted in my reply above, with an excerpt from the Bible Myth article at Tent Maker.org, and as my signature relates and as was copied from TM.org itself, it is understandable that throughout the generations the varying interpretations and translations of scripture through the ages from Hebrew, Latin, Greek, Aramaic, would lose something in the process.
Personally, and with all respect, I do not think it serves as spiritual manna to ignore what Biblical Scholars alone have noted regarding the errant factor of the written words of men within the Bible. As the Tent Maker site itself noted, in the excerpt above while paraphrasing here, the Holy Spirit speaks to the faithful innately.
Certainly, speaking to what Gary himself noted on his own site is not bashing. Rather it is reiterating what he's noted about the Bible itself. If his intention was not to communicate what he wrote there I agree with you in that perhaps he should make a correction so that his true intent is made clear. As it stands what I've read of his articles thus far does not substantiate a fundamentalist evangelical point of view.
I don't think a new member can be held responsible for inferring his point of view from what he himself is responsible for posting on his own site so that the reader may thus be informed accordingly.
I appreciate your insight and look forward to Gary's input.
God Bless.
I've emailed Gary for his comments and to see if there are any clarifications he'd like to make and/or have input in general re: the discussion.
In the meantime, let's please continue to operate in the discussion forum as noted in the link I provided. Thanks, James.
Gary responded that the link to TM Expectations re: the scriptures "pretty much sums it up". He also offered to correspond by email to answer any specific questions about it. He can be reached at gary@tentmaker.org.
Thanks, James.
I think it is easy enough to clarify if one believes that the errors we are dealing with are related to mistranslation and the morphology of language and the theological prejudices of certain translations- on the one hand
and a belief in the integrity of the scriptures when presented as they were, spoken by the Spirit as expressions of the Logos, the mind of Christ, the image of the invisible God, on the other hand.
The Spirit certainly does "innately" explain things to the faithful, which is how I was able, eventually, to overcome the devastating errors (both purposeful and accidental) of the primary English translations and reach an understanding that God would have no man suffer forever and that the Lord Jesus Christ would eventually redeem and restore all of creation.
I do however also thank God that through the use of interlinears and parrallels and lexicons and dictionaries a mediocre student such as myself could find the clear truth presented in the scriptures as they were meant to be.
I am also thankful that God is not really all uptight about what anyone believes about how time works or doesnt, or how sheol or heaven mesh or don't or how and when one sleeps or wakes in relation to that DAY when the veil is rent and every eye shall see Him and exactly how we experience it after physical death.
"We see through a glass darkly", said Paul, a man who had been caught up to the third heaven and heard words so transcendent he could not repeat them among men.
Love one another says John.
Peace y'all
Quote from: eaglesway on September 05, 2012, 06:15:46 AM
I think it is easy enough to clarify if one believes that the errors we are dealing with are related to mistranslation and the morphology of language and the theological prejudices of certain translations- on the one hand
and a belief in the integrity of the scriptures when presented as they were, spoken by the Spirit as expressions of the Logos, the mind of Christ, the image of the invisible God, on the other hand.
The Spirit certainly does "innately" explain things to the faithful, which is how I was able, eventually, to overcome the devastating errors (both purposeful and accidental) of the primary English translations and reach an understanding that God would have no man suffer forever and that the Lord Jesus Christ would eventually redeem and restore all of creation.
I do however also thank God that through the use of interlinears and parrallels and lexicons and dictionaries a mediocre student such as myself could find the clear truth presented in the scriptures as they were meant to be.
I am also thankful that God is not really all uptight about what anyone believes about how time works or doesnt, or how sheol or heaven mesh or don't or how and when one sleeps or wakes in relation to that DAY when the veil is rent and every eye shall see Him and exactly how we experience it after physical death.
"We see through a glass darkly", said Paul, a man who had been caught up to the third heaven and heard words so transcendent he could not repeat them among men.
Love one another says John.
Peace y'all
Thank you for putting my point of view in a different way. Well said! All of it actually, but particularly that part. Perhaps your phrasing will help to clear the glass. ;)
God Bless.
Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust.
Act 23:6 Now Paul, knowing that the one party is of Sadducees, yet the other of Pharisees, cries in the Sanhedrin, "Men! Brethren! A Pharisee, son of Pharisees am I. Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged.
I just do not see how Scripture makes a big deal about the "hope/expectation of the resurrection of the dead" yet at the same time we get a "free ticket" to this carnal man's version of a physical Heaven. If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection, what point is of the body? What point is of the resurrection of the dead? Why is death our ENEMY? Not only our enemy, but the LAST one? If we life before a resurrection, why would it be a "victory" If we can live with that enemy still present?
Still unsure on what "Heaven" exactly "is," but remember, these words are Spirit and are only Spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 02, 2018, 07:21:15 AM
Act 24:15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust.
Act 23:6 Now Paul, knowing that the one party is of Sadducees, yet the other of Pharisees, cries in the Sanhedrin, "Men! Brethren! A Pharisee, son of Pharisees am I. Concerning the expectation and resurrection of the dead am I being judged.
I just do not see how Scripture makes a big deal about the "hope/expectation of the resurrection of the dead" yet at the same time we get a "free ticket" to this carnal man's version of a physical Heaven. If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection, what point is of the body? What point is of the resurrection of the dead? Why is death our ENEMY? Not only our enemy, but the LAST one? If we life before a resurrection, why would it be a "victory" If we can live with that enemy still present?
Still unsure on what "Heaven" exactly "is," but remember, these words are Spirit and are only Spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:14 Now the soulish man is not receiving those things which are of the spirit of God, for they are stupidity to him, and he is not able to know them, seeing that they are spiritually examined.
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!
hi, ML..
[ :2c: ] I think of Bible prophecy, the Book of revelation and the bible itself as one whole 'story'.. and as a history.. All history once we're in the following ages.. Not that there isn't tons of spiritual lessons in all these things! But I guess I believe the 'prime directive' is it is history and is teaching all "in heaven and earth" the difference between, and the full understanding of good and evil. Which I think is also - or
is life and death/nonlife. God
being life and also perfection.
To sum it up, what we are learning (the basic underlying ALL truth - I'm not sure what I mean by that..)
Is this.. pluck the leaf off the tree. (And what happens? ...To the leaf.)
Have you ever kept a compost heap? that leaf plucked off the tree, will literally burn. It is consumed, and heats up while doing so.. Like a slow motion burn. It shrivels up until it is gone. The result of missing the mark - because it's the opposite of God/Life. God is perfection, the imperfect character cannot survive. Can anyone in the universe think of a better way for all to totally learn this? Than our share of experience? And to witness this horror? - History bearing witness that life w/o God / not built on the Rock, can only crash n burn, individual and collective. All of it ordained in one sense, and random in another.. :2c: :2c: I really liked EW's reply just above, and I love how exchange of thought here is peaceful.. A good fruit/evidence for U.R! :thumbsup: Most topics I find, are an issue of "and" not "or".. But some places, not quite on that page, can be kind of brutal!
[Good news is, Perfection makes no mistakes, cannot lose anything.. Does every thing He does, in such a way (surely?) to bring about the utter
Best 'end' result.]
Whoops, I did not mean that Scripture is not historical. I'm not one of those ultra liberals that takes everything as just a "good story" that did not actually happen.
Never been to a compost myself, unless you are also talking about a garbage dump! I have been to those before. Those stink!
Speaking of learning and discerning good and evil, have you ever noticed that the 2 are inseparable? You can't know one without the other. Not that evil is just this too powerful monster that is egregiously powerful to handle. It won't be around forever either, but an experience given now to humble us (Ecc 1:13)
These verses also may/may not have relevancy, but thought it applied do to you mentioning good fruit....
1Ti 4:12 Let no one be despising your youth, but become a model for the believers, in word, in behavior, in love, in faith, in purity.
Col 4:5 In wisdom, be walking towards them who are without,—the opportunity, buying out for yourselves,
Col 4:6 Your discourse being always with benefit, with salt, seasoned,—that ye may know how it behoveth you, unto each one, to be making answer.
Php 3:17 Become imitators together of me, brethren, and be noting those who are walking thus, according as you have us for a model,
Php 3:18 for many are walking, of whom I often told you, yet now am lamenting also as I tell it, who are enemies of the cross of Christ,
Php 3:19 whose consummation is destruction, whose god is their bowels, and whose glory is in their shame, who to the terrestial are disposed."
Php 3:20 For our realm is inherent in the heavens, out of which we are awaiting a Saviour also, the Lord, Jesus Christ,
Php 3:21 Who will transfigure the body of our humilation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself.
Quote
Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!
I have always felt , that the written word is for the carnally minded , many live in that fear of the unknown God , I recall not understanding it and taking it at face value
I believe the Spoken Word is when we are born again from above and experience those things and began a discerning between the what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh and also the fruits of those doings and what manner of spirit we are of .... BEGIN to HEAR WHAT THE Spirit is saying all done by faith of God working in us ..
I believe we are judged by the WORD spoken to us and what begins to live in us and what is appointed and anointed of God when it becomes a Living WORD in you BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ....
This being a HOLY WORD , the Christ / anointing is in you the hope of glory to GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER & THE SON .... and returns to Him as fulfilling ,''all things'' in each and everyone called according to GODS WISDOM and purpose
So much more depth of GODS LOVE ,,,,,,,,,GOD IS LOVE ...17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth
of His love, 19and to know
the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God....
:HeartThrob:
Quote from: MusicLover123 on June 02, 2018, 07:21:15 AM
If we get a free trip to that before the resurrection..
I know, right? If we're all 'going to heaven' (and at death) then what is the resurrection at His return.. and what are we to make of Revelation 21 when the New City Jerusalem comes down out of heaven "to the earth".. I think that sounds so much better than lounging around on clouds all day.. or existing w/o a body.. or all as one in the extreme of one big blob of consciousness.. :laughing7:
Whatever the universe is, it seems to me He has created it to be inhabited.. Just because it's been subjected to vanity (imperfect, subject to death and decay) doesn't mean the original glory isn't still intact and very much a part of the blueprint (of what He is creating?)
just :2c: :Peace2:
Quote
Whoops, I did not mean that Scripture is not historical. I'm not one of those ultra liberals that takes everything as just a "good story" that did not actually happen.
Oops.. I should have known that.. or that is, I didn't mean to imply that :gsmile:
That attitude always baffles me.. like where do they draw the line? Many think genesis is metaphor, the beginning, and revelation, the end (of course Rev is told using much symbolism and maybe even metaphor, haven't really thought about that.. symbolism, yes.. even types.. oops, headed down the rabbit hole (of talking about bible prophecy). The virgin birth? The crucifixion? The resurrection? Bible prophecy already occurred? If prophecy already occurred isn't metaphor alone, then why should other bible prophecy be metaphor alone? Of course raining down sulphur and brimstone upon an unrepentant world may be metaphor.. or then again.. maybe not, there's plenty of sulphur and brimstone type stuff already, that's been unleashed plenty of times..
Quote
Speaking of learning and discerning good and evil, have you ever noticed that the 2 are inseparable? You can't know one without the other. Not that evil is just this too powerful monster that is egregiously powerful to handle. It won't be around forever either, but an experience given now to humble us (Ecc 1:13)
Ecclesiastes 1:13
13 And I set my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all that is done under heaven; this burdensome task God has given to the sons of man, by which they may be exercised.
"Have to know both good and evil".. I agree! One not knowing the difference? Patooey
!? spit out like salt that's lost its savor? "worthless" - not that He won't fix it! :cloud9:
Quote
who to the terrestial are disposed
...another version (or was that a different verse? read it today, can't remember..) says "who glory in their flesh" rather than glorying in God and what
He does!
:thumbsup: Great verses!
Quote from: rosered on June 03, 2018, 06:38:54 PM
Quote
Why do you think there are so many literal interpretations of a book like Revelation? Why is all Scripture only taken "literally" instead of Spiritually? (Not to say that there are not literal events, but that are the shadow, and not the light that we are called into.) Because they do not have the key to interpretation: the Spirit of God!
I have always felt , that the written word is for the carnally minded , many live in that fear of the unknown God , I recall not understanding it and taking it at face value
I believe the Spoken Word is when we are born again from above and experience those things and began a discerning between the what is Spirit is spirit and what is flesh is flesh and also the fruits of those doings and what manner of spirit we are of .... BEGIN to HEAR WHAT THE Spirit is saying all done by faith of God working in us ..
I believe we are judged by the WORD spoken to us and what begins to live in us and what is appointed and anointed of God when it becomes a Living WORD in you BY THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD ....
This being a HOLY WORD , the Christ / anointing is in you the hope of glory to GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE FATHER & THE SON .... and returns to Him as fulfilling ,"all things" in each and everyone called according to GODS WISDOM and purpose
So much more depth of GODS LOVE ,,,,,,,,,GOD IS LOVE …17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have power, together with all the saints, to comprehend the length and width and height and depth of His love, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.…
:HeartThrob:
I definitely think God's written word can be taken carnally, or understood carnally.. And we can't understand it until it is spoken to our heart. Otherwise it seems to bear bad fruit.. I mean look at the pharisees who plotted and killed Jesus, would have killed Lazarus.. then requested the prisoners on the cross, legs be broken.. who earlier wouldn't enter Pilate's residence to not be defiled for the Passover meal (eaten on 1st day of Unleavened Bread coming up when the sun went down)... whitewashed graves!
I love how Jesus said on His last eve here.. "come and eat and drink" - and how often do we need to eat and drink? And what do we eat and drink? The bread and the wine. Our daily bread and the new wine of God's Presence come because of what Jesus did/paid.. [Redeemed us, "redemption".. we're being recycled.. :laughing7: ]
More and more, I think of the New Testament especially, as our loaf. We are to eat it and digest it. Not relying on our own heart, for as Jeremiah says, the ehart is deceitful above all things.. and psalms? "lean not unto your own understanding" - Not to say we are not guided by His Spirit.. But I believe it always aligns with and is His Word.
Just today I did a study and posted on my blog
(http://innermonastery.wordpress.com (http://innermonastery.wordpress.com) - what is life?) - I came across the word "hagnos" in a verse, Greek word #0053 which led me into an interesting study.
Hagnos – free from ceremonial defilement, holy, sacred, pure, chaste; originally, in a condition prepared for worship. (Hagnos)
This made me think of Revelation chapter 14, where it talks about the 144 thousand "purchased from the Earth as firstfruits, who are virgins, pure, and not defiled with woman. (Revelation 14:1-4) And I wondered "is it the same word?" (#G53)
It's not the same word, it's #G3933, parthenoi. I found myself studying the context. They are virgins — the Greek interlinear reads: with woman (#G1135) not have been defiled (#G3435 – soil, stain, pollute). And they are parthenos, #G3933) – a maiden, virgin.
Twice, is the reference of being unstained by woman. Now why would it say that!?
It's obvious. That 'other' religion, from the time of Cain and all through the centuries and ages, has always been female. Satan making trouble right from the get go, using the mysterious female principal as genesis of life, origins, God. "Hidden mysteries!" (Of such were the Gnostics). All those versions of a mother god.. faint memories of Eve corrupted? spread through the world..
This word "pure" brought me back to the original verse I'd been reading, in Philippians, verse 4:8 – Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable–if anything is excellent or praiseworthy–think on these things.
"Whatsoever things are true" – alethes – true, unconcealed (G#227).
Then I remembered Revelation 14:1 – And I (John) looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing upon Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand having His name and the name of His Father having been written on their foreheads.
Hallelujah! To have His name and the name of the Father written on one's forehead! A virgin, chaste, unsoiled forehead. And not just one seal, but a double seal! A triple sealing if we reckon in the "seal upon the heart" a "pledge" of "ownership" and "promise" (of 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 1:14).(And this crowd is "
Firstfruits"! - Definite U.R. connection!)
More and more I think of His Word as our programming to be.. But not if we don't eat and digest it! (Which of course we all do, or we'd be talking empy wind :laughing7: ) I think lots of 'churches' are getting kind of crazy out there, due to letting go of God's Word, the Logos - spoken word(the greek) and God breathed/inspired the Word.. study to show thyself approved.. rightly dividing.. Thy word is truth.. the renewing of our mind by the washing of the Word.. Jesus and the Spirit of Jesus, but also the spoken and revealed/written, because spoken to the hearts and ears of those elected to write.. Otherwise is too easy for all to be going every which way..! Exactly what seems to be occurring in some quarters of 'the church' in the world.. :Chinscratch:
I do get excited about God's word..
(I use a reading schedule called, enter the story schedule of reading, https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html (https://inner-monastery.blogspot.com/p/daily.html)) God bless you Rosie!
2 Corinthians 12:
1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to gain, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up into Paradise. The things he heard were too sacred for words, things that man is not permitted to tell.
If Paul didn't know, I think it suffice to say that it is not something that we can know, either. The above sounds like a life after death experience, to me. Some things just don't translate into the way we look at life, and afterlife, now. We are far too limited to understand all the nuances that can exist.
We also have verses like the following:
2 Kings 2 New International Version (NIV)
Elijah Taken Up to Heaven
2 When the Lord was about to take Elijah up to heaven in a whirlwind, Elijah and Elisha were on their way from Gilgal. 2 Elijah said to Elisha, "Stay here; the Lord has sent me to Bethel."
But Elisha said, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went down to Bethel.
3 The company of the prophets at Bethel came out to Elisha and asked, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?"
"Yes, I know," Elisha replied, "so be quiet."
4 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here, Elisha; the Lord has sent me to Jericho."
And he replied, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So they went to Jericho.
5 The company of the prophets at Jericho went up to Elisha and asked him, "Do you know that the Lord is going to take your master from you today?"
"Yes, I know," he replied, "so be quiet."
6 Then Elijah said to him, "Stay here; the Lord has sent me to the Jordan."
And he replied, "As surely as the Lord lives and as you live, I will not leave you." So the two of them walked on.
7 Fifty men from the company of the prophets went and stood at a distance, facing the place where Elijah and Elisha had stopped at the Jordan. 8 Elijah took his cloak, rolled it up and struck the water with it. The water divided to the right and to the left, and the two of them crossed over on dry ground.
9 When they had crossed, Elijah said to Elisha, "Tell me, what can I do for you before I am taken from you?"
"Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit," Elisha replied.
10 "You have asked a difficult thing," Elijah said, "yet if you see me when I am taken from you, it will be yours—otherwise, it will not."
11 As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind. 12 Elisha saw this and cried out, "My father! My father! The chariots and horsemen of Israel!" And Elisha saw him no more. Then he took hold of his garment and tore it in two.
13 Elisha then picked up Elijah's cloak that had fallen from him and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. 14 He took the cloak that had fallen from Elijah and struck the water with it. "Where now is the Lord, the God of Elijah?" he asked. When he struck the water, it divided to the right and to the left, and he crossed over.
15 The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, "The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha." And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him. 16 "Look," they said, "we your servants have fifty able men. Let them go and look for your master. Perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has picked him up and set him down on some mountain or in some valley."
"No," Elisha replied, "do not send them."
17 But they persisted until he was too embarrassed to refuse. So he said, "Send them." And they sent fifty men, who searched for three days but did not find him. 18 When they returned to Elisha, who was staying in Jericho, he said to them, "Didn't I tell you not to go?"
I don't think the confusion is how an event is presented, but whether we can accurately put it into words. And, whether we have the understanding of what the possibilities are to truly be able to explain it. And, we cannot see what it looks like from the 'other side'.
My humble :2c:
D.
Just looking at fb, and saw this:
To be absent from the Body, is to be present with the Lord.
2 Corinthians 5:8
Now, I knew that one, but didn't think to include it. I will chalk it up to the influence of the Holy Spirit. :dontknow:
D.
Regarding 2 Kings, here is one email reply I found from Ray. He has wrote a lot more on it, which I have yet to get to, but I thought this covers it well:
Quoteyou say jesus is the only person who went to heaven . how about elighji who god took and moses who talked with jesus in the garden before his crusifiction
Dear Henry and Mabel:
Heaven is both a location as a direction--UP from the earth, the air, the atmosphere, the sky. And, it is a realm as in "The Kingdom OF heaven."
Elijah was transported through the air, the sky, to a different location. Later Elijah wrote a letter from a different location where he was living (II Chron. 21:12). As for Moses and Elijah in the so-called "mount of transfiguration," it was not a physical, literal event: "And behold, there APPEARED unto them Moses and Elias talking with Him...and as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell THE VISION to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead" (Matt. 17:3 & 9). It was a VISION. It never "literally" happened. It is a VISION, not unlike a dream that takes place in one's mind, NOT LITERALLY in the flesh. Besides, Heb. 11 tells us clearly that Enoch (Ver. 5), Abraham (Verse 08), Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, and MOSES (Vers. 20-24) "These ALL DIED IN FAITH, NOT HAVING RECEIVED THE PROMISES..." (Ver. 13).
God be with you,
Ray
Also regarding Paul, pretty sure it was a vision. A VERY powerful one indeed. He still died afterward, right?
Hebrews 9:27
27and as it is laid up to
men once to die, and after this — judgmentWe all still die, no one skips that process.
Regarding 2 Corinthians...
QuoteRay,
Thank you for your work.
One question in regards to death. Your paper says that when we die we lose consciousness until we are resurrected. But how does this align with:
2 Corinthians 5
6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
Here we see that while we are in our bodies we are absent from the Lord, but it says that the instant we are away from our bodies (death) we are present with the Lord. How then are we not conscious after death before the resurrection. By your conclusion those who have died in the Lord are not now present with him but unconscious until the resurrection. From these verses there seems to be no break in the time when we are absent from our body and present with the Lord.
Please elucidate. Thank you for your time.
Bertram
Dear Bertram: No, it DOESN'T say that "...the INSTANT we are way from our bodies we are present with the Lord." Where do you see that word "instant" in Scripture. Paul wrote these verses. Did Paul know when he personally would be "with the Lord?" Yes, of course he did: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye [yes, but WHEN?], AT THE LAST TRUMP, for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we {notice that Paul includes himself, that he will be DEAD, and 'the DEAD shall be raised.' One of those 'dead' will be Paul himself]...." (I Cor. 15:52). So did Paul lie, and mean that he would be changed "instantly" as you suggest AT death, rather than FROM the dead, AT THE LAST TRUMP?
God be with you,
Ray
A quick thought I had on NDE's. Surprised I have seen no one else think of this, from what I have seen at least. Well, maybe one person...
What if they are visions from God? Paul did not have to die to have that vision. The person still is not dead, but they also are not actually at the place they are seeing. I know WW was mentioning that there are NDE's seemingly very close to Scriptural truth. Maybe given in a parable like way, but still...
Appreciate your thoughts, too. You are very Christ-like in all of your ways. Continue to walk after the Spirit, as we continue to suffer together, whether you know it or not. :HeartThrob:
Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.
If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.
So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 04, 2018, 04:30:56 AM
Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.
If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.
So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?
Just a thought....we only know about the people who want to return to earth, from NDE....I would guess, the rest were declared dead.
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on June 04, 2018, 12:37:41 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on June 04, 2018, 04:30:56 AM
Ecc 12 7and the dust returns to the ground it came from,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it.
I agree with Dandelion that what happens is a mystery we don't fully understand.
If you want to tie in NDEs, I have read a ton.
Most want to come to back to earth. Some specifically say that only with a body can we do certain things.
So one possible THEORY based on scripture is...if the spirit returns to God after death, it waits for resurrection because we desire to be here on Earth, God made us and this is our home. So we are absent from the body and present with the Lord, our spirit returned to God who sent it...but awaiting ressurection for incorruptible bodies. Maybe?
Just a thought....we only know about the people who want to return to earth, from NDE....I would guess, the rest were declared dead.
D.
True! :laugh:
I usually think when I die the next thing I know I will be with the Lord.. I do think it's possible there is consciousness after death (before resurrection) but I lean away from believing it because I think it downplays the harsh reality of death, which is the danger of sin ..the soul that sins shall die.. the wages of sin is death ..And it seems not logical to me that saints are in a holding place somewhere waiting for perhaps hundreds of years and more.. But that's just my :2c: I agree we don't know and won't until His return, as we are, both views, relying on scripture.. :gsmile:
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2011, 05:23:15 AM
What heaven is like is something that can only be left to the imagination. We know some through scripture but much of what we think about heaven has been passed down through tradition. Is heaven in this universe? Is it outside in a multiverse? Is it anywhere that can be considered a place? I have no idea. It's fun to think about though. :bigGrin:
Quantum Physics seems to answer some of these questions. There's definitely more than what meets the eye!
I have a strong sense or feeling that the universe, that is the heavens and the earth will be physical plus more! And incorruptible, not liable to decay of any sort. Maybe a finer matter? But a creation, because of verses like Isaiah 11:7 which says the lion will eat straw like the ox and how the bear will graze with the cow, a child will be able to play at the entrance to the poisonous snake den.... And in Micah (4:4?) how every one will dwell under their own vine and fruit tree and no one will bother them. Also in a later chapter of Isaiah there's a verse that says "My people will sleep in the forest" or be able to? I can't remember and I haven't looked up the interlinear and original words used.
Surely is a lot of fun to think about!
God is good! :Peace2:
I've read where the scriptures refer to the heavens as the expanse of the vault of the universe itself. Rather than a celestial abode of some sort, like an address called, "Heaven".
While Ecclesiastes 12 (https://biblehub.com/interlinear/study/ecclesiastes/12.htm) reminds me of those dual verses that refer to the kingdom of God, the kingdom of Heaven, being as Jesus said, within.
Verses 5~7. (https://biblehub.com/lexicon/ecclesiastes/12-7.htm)
OJV = Orthodox Jewish Version
5 Also when they shall be afraid of height, and fears shall be in the derech, and the almond tree shall blossom, and the grasshopper drags himself along, and desire shall fail; because haAdam goeth to his bais olam (eternal home), and the mourners go about the streets; 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the bor (cistern). 7 Then shall the aphar return to ha'aretz as it was; and the ruach shall return unto HaElohim who gave it.
OR/
Brenton Septuagint Version
5and they shall look up, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust shall increase, and the caper shall be scattered: because man has gone to his eternal home, and the mourners have gone about the market: 6before the silver cord be let go, or the choice gold be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel run down to the cistern; 7before the dust also return to the earth as it was, and the spirit return to God who gave it. 8Vanity of vanities, said the Preacher; all is vanity.
I believe that, yes, Heaven is a state of being, a state of consciousness, Christ-consciousness – a state. However, in God's House there are many abiding and tarrying places for God's children. And also, in my opinion, there are places for those whose state of consciousness is degraded to a foul and vile existence, a hideous distortion of a healthy being, who simply could not exist in a spiritualised atmosphere as the Light would cause an 'everlasting' pain - and there, in those places, a purification process must occur before being able to exist in those heavenly abiding places – which will most definitely happen because God must be all in all. It is not difficult to imagine, we see the shadow of health and illness in this shadow-world for our education. All that is in this world, from that which is beautiful to that which is vile, is but a pale reflection of what was once perfect, before man abused the laws of God and brought that he was supposed to be a steward to down with him. That is how I would summarise spiritual heavens and the outer darkness (or jail of 'lake of fire' etc.) as opposed to a material place high up there in the material universe called 'the heavens'. That is just my interpretation of course.
I kinda, sorta, believe that too.. But not as a totality. so i guess i do believe that, yes. But I also believe in a literal Earth and Universe made new.. wherein there will be springtime and harvest (w/o extremes).. and even sabbath and Tabernacles.. where and when, "the lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow" (Is 11:7) And where "each one will abide under their vine and fruit tree".. the nations will beat their weapons into plows and gardening tools.." Micah 4:4,3
I even believe Jesus literally returns to the planet, "His feet standing upon Mt of Olives on that day" (Zech 14:4) just like the angel(s) at His ascension from Mt of Olives said, "you will see Him return just as you have seen Him go up.." Acts 1:9(?)
"My people will be able to sleep in the forest" (somewhere in Isaiah).. Rev 21:5.. all things new, a new heavens and a new earth.. a big universe.. lots of people being resurrected.. namely "all"... To me, it's not what God has created, but what He is creating. And I believe it is quite glorious.
But I definitely agree, there is light and there is darkness.. like dimensions and the mind/heart can be in both.. Levels of darkness? (and imperfection as opposed to Perfection/God/Life) - I kind of agree? I think of darkness/imperfection as an abyss / bottomless pit of not so good potential.. which :eek: history has often demonstrated. But Truth will vanquish all untruth.. Purity all impurity.. Light all darkness.. Life all death.. All the same thing.. Him.
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
If we believe that heaven is not just a place but a state of being, here are some thoughts that I never thought of before until just a few days ago.
We know that we have the ability to feel with this physical body, and that we will have a spiritual body that is incorruptable, unable to corrupt the creation ..... imagine objects in heaven that can do the same thing. Imagine touching a rock and just by touching it we know what it is like to be a rock, or touch a flower and know what it is like to be a flower, now imagine the same in return, that what is created, whether a rock, a tree, a flower can know what it is like to be a person, to have the experience of having life as we do and us having a life like they do ..... wouldn't that in itself be "all in all", imagine being a seed, being planted in the ground, taking nourishment from the ground, knowing what it is like to grow like a tree.
Imagine a rock just waiting in anticipation for someone to come along and love it as much as God loves us, does not the creation itself wait in anticipation for the Sons of God to be manifested?
If all things are possible with God, is this not a possibility? Wouldn't this be infinite understanding? That understanding would never end?
my :2c:
Something else was brought to mind which may sound improbable, impossible and very unbelievable ..... picture Saul's life before his experience on the road to Damascus and his life after that experience ..... what if Adolph Hitler experienced this same thing ..... that his physical death is like Paul's experience and now Adolph is one of the greatest evangelists suffering for Christ among the Jews that he killed while he was here on earth just as Paul suffered for Christ among the ones he once killed.
Just a :2c: thought
The bigger they are, the harder they fall....fall on their knees, that is?
Something like that, jugghead? :gsigh:
D.
Quote from: Dandelion on August 14, 2018, 01:27:38 PM
The bigger they are, the harder they fall....fall on their knees, that is?
Something like that, jugghead? :gsigh:
D.
Yes ..... but a more detailed explanation of what I believe, I will post under my tidbits, in order to not hijack this thread.
Quote from: jugghead on August 14, 2018, 09:29:38 AM
If we believe that heaven is not just a place but a state of being, here are some thoughts that I never thought of before until just a few days ago.
Very interesting posts, JUgghead! I do think we will be so much more "aware" in the Kingdom / what it is God is creating.. One thing I think about God is that He is very thorough, very organized, and very able. Why do I think organized? Idk.. maybe just because I like that idea, lol. Yet, He does seem organized to me, in how He has done things and is doing things. What a wise parent! He will end up with exactly what it is He has set out to do (create). And of course, I think the main theme is His writing His law and duplicating His character upon every heart and mind.. If it's on the heart, I have to think it's written / imbedded in the mind.. The smoke of apocalypse which will rise up forever and ever? [Which idea is not a reason to fear but to celebrate, that only truth can stand. And being in Jesus, we wear God's armor, I'm convinced anyone in tribulation He envelopes them.. And still others He leads safely away from tribulation.. Either scenario He is with us.. Whether we live or whether we die, He is with us..
And the more we study on it, we know that He is fully capable and willing/wanting to redeem all and bring every single one in heaven and earth into complete joy. The more we study on it, the more we find it confirmed in His Word and in His Spirit. As Jesus, said, no man enters the kingdom but through Him, and He will draw all to Him (Jn 14:6; 12:32)
Um.. sorry to ramble on so.. :mblush:
:banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: Dandelion on August 14, 2018, 01:27:38 PM
The bigger they are, the harder they fall....fall on their knees, that is?
Something like that, jugghead? :gsigh:
D.
:iagree: with that!
Quote from: marie glen on August 14, 2018, 07:34:37 AM
I kinda, sorta, believe that too.. But not as a totality. so i guess i do believe that, yes. But I also believe in a literal Earth and Universe made new.. wherein there will be springtime and harvest (w/o extremes).. and even sabbath and Tabernacles.. where and when, "the lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow" (Is 11:7) And where "each one will abide under their vine and fruit tree".. the nations will beat their weapons into plows and gardening tools.." Micah 4:4,3
I even believe Jesus literally returns to the planet, "His feet standing upon Mt of Olives on that day" (Zech 14:4) just like the angel(s) at His ascension from Mt of Olives said, "you will see Him return just as you have seen Him go up.." Acts 1:9(?)
"My people will be able to sleep in the forest" (somewhere in Isaiah).. Rev 21:5.. all things new, a new heavens and a new earth.. a big universe.. lots of people being resurrected.. namely "all"... To me, it's not what God has created, but what He is creating. And I believe it is quite glorious.
But I definitely agree, there is light and there is darkness.. like dimensions and the mind/heart can be in both.. Levels of darkness? (and imperfection as opposed to Perfection/God/Life) - I kind of agree? I think of darkness/imperfection as an abyss / bottomless pit of not so good potential.. which :eek: history has often demonstrated. But Truth will vanquish all untruth.. Purity all impurity.. Light all darkness.. Life all death.. All the same thing.. Him.
:thumbsup: :Peace2:
I agree. The New Jerusalem is coming down out of the heavens. Jesus said, I am the living bread having come down out of heaven.
When, in John's revelation, the coming of the Lord is spoken of as "the heavens were rolled up like a scroll and the ark of the covenant appeared in the heavens, I believe this speaks of the testimony(ark of the testimony a.k.a.) in the "tent of meeting" (huse of prayer for all people). The veil pulled back so "every eye will see him)- all consciouness from all time opened to the face of Christ(and we allw ith unveiled face beholding as in a glss the reflection of the Lord are being transformed from glory to glory into the same image"- which is the destiny of all mankind, which will be one vine, united in love, but also with "each one under His own vine and under his own fig tree". We are the first fruits of this coming universal union of consciousness- "In my Father's house are many mansions"- but it will be a "new earth" in a "new heavens" and "all things will be made new" which, to me, means alive in the Spirit and eternal in nature, gloriously shared like "the voice of God" being as the sound of "the rushing of many waters, like the sound of 10,000s of 10,000s praising God", to me a metaphorical description of the "all in all" in the age of ages which, without fear of sounding new age, I believe is universal consciousness united in love, through Messiah, in God.
In Romans 8, the "
whole creation groans" for the "revelation of the children of God"- the first fruits James speaks of as "a kind of first fruits of creation"- who will set the (whole) creation free from futility.
His coming and appearing are spoken of as "epiphaneia"( bursting open or flooding of consciousness), as "parousia"(arrival of presence), as "erchomai" (to come to a time and a place). I believe it is all of the above, from the dawn(Alpha) to the full noon(Omega).