The chicken or the egg?

[livingwater1]

One day, YOU will awaken and be born from above. Then the entire drama of scripture will unfold within you, revealing your true identity.

[livingwater1]

noONE comes to the father except by me.


who is this ONE??    spirit, clay/dust??  or the being/soul???   

and if this ONE is dragged to the father, and becomes a NEW man,  is that NEW/awake ONE to die again; even after having been given LIFE??  i think not

[livingwater1]

28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

who is this ONE that returns to the father?     is it just the breath that returns to the Lord? 

and if Jesus is ONE with the Father.....who is "that ONE"?   

and if "that" has to die or become nothing as the body dies and the spirit returns, then "that which is ONE with, the father must die too.   then this ONE must die;  so the father must die.      i dont' think so



to me, these scriptures speak of a "something" that was prior with the Father, and returns there.    and it is interessting that we are to REturn to the father.   again; for me...the RE words have something to be pondered

[livingwater1]

imo, just like Jesus

WE come from the father, and return to the father.  and the steps between are what we call "death to life".    REturning to ONENESS with HIM.   but having forgotten (purposely) in order to awaken o sleeper, rise from the dead.   carnal mind (dead soul) to mind of Christ (NEW man/soul/Identity; one that KNOWS he is ONE with the FATHER).

[Molly]

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:4

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Just a couple of points to  :bdh: lol.....

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that invisible beings that want to destroy us, exist. Granted, my belief is slanted by experiences and you can never argue with a man with an experience, but the Word is pretty plain on this as well. I also believe the enemy is between our ears, but it is used by the enemy without.

Ever seen two 10 year old girls with generational voodoo demons levitate off the floor a foot? I have.

Ever see a 25 year old man with his previously flat stomach swelled up like he literally swallowed a *moving* basketball, while slain in the Spirit and unaware of it, also from a generational voodoo spirit (his grandfather was a voodoo high priest in Haiti)? I have.

Ever been asleep in a room when a demon was in the process of possessing someone? I have. And countless other stories, most I've forgotten by choice. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image.

The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

[micah7:9]

Had to leave WW I did not ignore your post. As always you bring up great thoughts. I owl be baach!  :bigGrin:

Little correction to my own post.
(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

I wrote became is added by translators. That wasn't a totally wrong statement but now it seems it wasn't totally correct either.
Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image.

When looking deeper into the "Mood" of the verse there are some things that aren't visible in most translations. A better translation:

(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

At the end of this post the definition/explanations of the Stem and Mood used in this post.

Forming: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Blowing: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Becoming: I think it's also ==> Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect

The whole verse seems to be uncompleted actions.
God keeps forming.
God keeps blowing in live/air.
And the lump of clay keeps becoming alive.

It can be reasoned for example it took God 2 hours build Adam so that's why the imperfect mood is used. An so it also took 2 hours for that limp of clay to become alive. Those two hours have passed long ago; so now it's a completed action. But that's, imo, not how the Bible works. It makes clear in other verses some actions are completed (Stem perfect)

So could the alternative reading be:
God is still creating.
God is still "trying" to get that lump of clay to be alive.
Man still isn't a living soul but something in between.

In other words the verse merely describes God starting an activity that ends when God becomes all in all.


And when men is disobedient the process in temporarily interrupted and everything gradually returns to the before Gen 2:7

(Genesis 2:17 [CLV])
Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

Yep you likely guessed it by now.... :winkgrin:
Eating and dying: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect


Enough blasphemy for one post  :blush:

Stem=Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the
"simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:
He sat,  he ate,  he went,  he said,  he rose,  he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

Mood=Imperfect

The imperfect expresses an action,  process or condition which is incomplete, 
and it has a wide range of meaning:

1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact",  the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?",  refers not only to the
present,  but assumes that the search has continued for some time.

Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion,  as to a
continued condition.

2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.

2a) In the present:

it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

2b) In the past:

"and so he did"       -  regularly,  year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke"            -repeatedly

3) The imperfect is used to express the "future",  referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:

3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:

Now "shalt thou    See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to    See what "should be done"

4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation,  and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.

of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say

5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose",  "result" and so forth as,  "in order that",  "lest"; e.g.

say thou art my sister,  "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation,  "lest it multiplies"

5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose",  or when it
is meant to be strongly marked,  then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.

raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"

"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".

Good insights.  Got this back from a friend in Jerusalem...> " And man ------------a living soul..."? Is the word "became" not relevant
> to the meaning of this sentence?  Thank you again. Dave

We have an idiom here wayhi X le-Y, which is X became Y in Biblical Hebrew.


shabbat shalom,

[Beloved Servant]

It could be read:

and man — AM — a living soul.

[Molly]

and becoming is the human a living soul.

We don't talk or write like this in English.

Therefore, it makes no sense.

[micah7:9]

It could be read:

and man — AM — a living soul.

I would think it could, but it wouldn't it have to be- I AM- a living soul? Because the "become" is the same as I AM not just AM?

I can understand "And man ------------a living soul." Knowing what WW has said that it is still in a working process, X becoming Y.

I am feeling more like an archeologist as the Lord keeps me digging into the dust-sand-ground of that wonderful book of the beginning. I am learning with each new find and from all the brethren who are digging as well. Some times old pieces don't fit with the new pieces.  :cloud9:

[Molly]

 
New International Version (©1984)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

World English Bible
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Ever wonder what God has hidden in plain sight about it?

Genesis 2:23 KJV
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


Interesting that the word for BONE here runs into a meaning of "SELF, SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE"; in other words, what makes us, us = the soul. It comes from a root word that also means, "TO SHUT THE EYES".

When someone shuts their eyes, this is an expression for sleep/death. God shut Adam's eyes, but you cannot find where He ever woke him up. This is because he will stay asleep until the Spirit of Christ wakes him up, and He fulfills in the fullness by CLOTHING HIM WITH HIMSELF = "celestial" flesh/glorified body.

The fact that He had a bone to take out of him, means He had one put in him in the first place. The soul is as those bones, the stony heart of man that must become as a covering heart of flesh (the tablets of the law were COVERED OVER, not replaced).

Even more interesting is the fact that FLESH here runs into a root word meaning of, "TO PREACH, TO GLADDEN WITH GOOD NEWS, TO ANNOUNCE SALVATION AS GOOD NEWS". This IS Christ, the covering heart of flesh. More later....Blessings....

[micah7:9]

 
New International Version (©1984)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

World English Bible
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Purpose?

[Molly]

And the LORD God formed the man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils [the breath of life] nashamah chay,
and the man

"became"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.


a living soul.


Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


"inspiration" [of the Almighty]

H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.



The neshamah of the Almighty gives men understanding.

The LORD God breathed into [Adam's] nostrils neshamah chay, the breath of life.---which is spirit, divine intellect, soul, inspiration of life,  and understanding, a BIG package.


Search the BIble for other instances of God breathing n'shamah chay into man's nostrils.

[Molly]

Purpose?

To show that all these translators say 'the man became'...

[WhiteWings]

Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image.

The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

It seen iei means becoming. (almost) all translations use became/becoming or similar. I guess that's based on something. Somehow the word isn't linked to the Strong index. I checked some Hebrew versions and they have that word. H1961
The Hebrew word is used 782 times in the OT as mood=imperfect
Actually it's used far more often but then it's blended into another word.
For example become.a.king.  Same word with some extra letters added.

ueie = haya

491 הָיָה (hāyâ) to be, become, exist, happen.
This verb appears 3,540 times in Biblical Hebrew, and all of these are in the Qal stem except for twenty-one uses of the Niphal. The verb is related to another Hebrew word meaning "to become," hăwâ (only five times: Gen 27:29; Isa 16:4; Eccl 2:22; 11:3; Neh 6:6), and the same verb in Biblical Aramaic, hăwâ (71 times). In Akkadian its phonetic equivalent, ewû, means "to turn oneself into, to become like." To express being or existence Akkadian uses not ewû but bashû (much like Ugaritic and Phoenician kûn).
Very seldom in the ot is hāyâ used to denote either simple existence or the identification of a thing or person. This can be illustrated by a quick glance at almost any page of the KJV on which one will find numerous examples of words such as "is, are, was, were," in italics, indicating that these are additions by the translators for the sake of smoothness, but not in the Hebrew itself. In such cases the Hebrew employs what is known grammatically as a nominal sentence, which we may define most simply as a sentence lacking a verb or a copula, for example: I (am) the Lord your God; the Lord (is) a sun and shield; the land (is) good; and in the nt, blessed (are) the poor. This almost total lack of hāyâ as a copula or existential particle has led some to use this phenomenon as confirming evidence that "static" thought was alien to the Hebrews, the latter thinking only in "dynamic" categories (see Boman in the bibliography below).
An alternative way in Hebrew to express existence besides the nominal sentence is by the particles yēsh (positive) and 'ayin (negative), really another type of nominal sentence "perhaps 'there are' fifty righteous in the city"; " 'there is' no God." Both of these words are more substantival in nature than they are verbal, and in function they resemble the French il y a and the German es gibt.
There are instances, however, where hāyâ is used with a predicate adjective: (a) in the description of a past situation which no longer exists, "The earth was (hayĕtâ) formless and void" (Gen 1:2); (b) in historical narration, "The serpent was (hāyâ) more subtil than any beast of the field" (Gen 3: 1); (c) in the expression of a gnomic truth, "It is not good that man should be (hĕyôt) alone" (Gen 2:18). Notice the juxtaposition of the verbal sentence, with hāyâ and a nominal sentence without it: "You shall be (tihyû) holy for I (am) holy (qādôsh 'ănı̂, Lev 19:2). Boman would account for the absence of a copula in the latter part of this phrase by stating that the predicate (holy) is inherent in the subject (God) and hence the copula is unnecessary. He would also add that the first "be" really means "become." To jump from this observation, however, to the conclusion that the basic meaning of "to be" in the Bible is "to become" seems to be unwarranted.
Of special import is the use of the verb hāyâ in covenant formulae: I will be your God and you will be my people (Jer 7:23; 11:4; 24:7; 31:33, etc.), and in the context of God's promises of blessings and judgements: and I will make of you a great nation ... and you shall be a blessing (Gen 12:2). A frequent, although perhaps misleading, translation of hāyâ is, as we have noted above, "to come." This can be seen in connection with God's spirit "coming" upon an individual (Jud 11:29; I Sam 19:20), and in those places where God's word "came" to someone (Gen 15:1; I Sam 15:10; II Sam 7:4; Jer 36:1).
A final and brief word may be said about the meaning and interpretation of Jehovah/Yahweh. It seems beyond doubt that the name contains the verb hāyâ "to be" (but also see article YHWH). The question is whether or not it is the verb "to be" in the Qal, "He is," or the Hiphil, "He causes to be," a view championed by W. F. Albright. The strongest objection to this latter interpretation is that it necessitates a correction in the reading of the key text in Ex 3:14: "I am that I am." Most likely the name should be translated something like "I am he who is," or "I am he who exists" as reflected by the LXX's ego eimi ho ōn. The echo of this is found surely in the nt, Rev 1:8. More than anything perhaps, the "is-ness" of God is expressive both of his presence and his existence. Neither concept can be said to be more important than the other.
Bibliography: Barr, James, The Semantics of Biblical Language, Oxford University Press, 1961, esp. pp. 58–72, in opposition to Boman's emphasis on the "dynamic" versus "existential" character of hāyâ. Boman, T., Hebrew Thought Compared With Greek, trans. J. L. Moreau, London: SCM, 1960, esp. pp. 38–49. DeVaux R., "The Revelation of the Divine Name YHWH," in Proclamation and Presence, eds. J. I. Durham and J. R. Porter, London: SCM, 1970, pp. 48–75, with citation of the appropriate bibliography of studies on the meaning of the Tetragrammaton. Preuss, H. D., "Ich will mit dir sein," ZAW 80:139–73. Schild, E., "On Exodus iii 14: 'I am that I am'," VT 4:296–302. THAT, I, pp. 477–85.

[micah7:9]

Purpose?

To show that all these translators say 'the man became'...

True, but that only means they all agree. The Hebrew really translates that is a processing that "may' be still be on going.
"became" ..... cause, come (to pass), continue, ...cant discard the thought.


Job 32:8   But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Psa 18:28  For Thou--Thou lightest my lamp, Jehovah my God enlighteneth my darkness.


H5397  a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
neshâmâh
BDB Definition:
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Beloved Servant on Today at 09:25:12 AM

    Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 01:43:47 AM


        Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:

        Larger image.


    The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
    I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

It seen iei means becoming. (almost) all translations use became/becoming or similar. I guess that's based on something. Somehow the word isn't linked to the Strong index. I checked some Hebrew versions and they have that word. H1961
The Hebrew word is used 782 times in the OT as mood=imperfect
Actually it's used far more often but then it's blended into another word.
For example become.a.king.  Same word with some extra letters added.

Good info.

"There are verses that state that God has a soul." WW
I thought I had come across that verse, cannot re find it?

Also, am I in error to presume that the first time a word in the Bible is a type of defining of that word? And if that is true then the word "soul" the first time it is used it defines a soul as "living." ?

[Beloved Servant]

Thank you WW!

[WhiteWings]

Got this back from a friend in Jerusalem...> " And man ------------a living soul..."? Is the word "became" not relevant
> to the meaning of this sentence?  Thank you again. Dave

We have an idiom here wayhi X le-Y, which is X became Y in Biblical Hebrew.

I'm already convinced something like becomes/became/is becoming/was becoming/did become/etc is really present in the Hebrew. The translations I've see all use one of those variations.
I would like to know (from your friend): Is it  a completed action like:

(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Or a uncompleted action like: (Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.


Maybe I'm complicating thing to much but I just want to know because we (TM members) keep discussing the same thing over and over. That leads nowhere without added info....

(Genesis 1:3 [CLV])
And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.

EXACTLY the same word and mood as used in "became a living soul"
And again we see "becoming light" as one word but a you likely have guessed by now.... it's stil becoming light.....

[Beloved Servant]

Adam — haya

God — I AM that I AM

Could we suppose that importantly Adam lacks "THAT?"

[WhiteWings]

Thank you WW!

At your service David :winkgrin:

http://www.scripture4all.org/
Free but highly recommended. The program has more info than the also free .pdf version

[Beloved Servant]

Stated another way:
Adam, suddenly, exists but not self-existent.

And God described as an oxymoron — static, yet everlasting!

[micah7:9]

Adam — haya

God — I AM that I AM

Could we suppose that importantly Adam lacks "THAT?"

I believe we can, in my opinion. And I might add that I find great that WW' " Viewing it from that angle I just as well can state God breathes out(blowing live into dust). God breaths in(removing life from the dust). Some thing to give thought to.