Tentmaker Forum

I pray that I am stayed and adamant in what the Lord and the brethern have enlightened to me is a Truth. What I have been given to know, and I am sure you all reason the same as to your knowledge, that you believe strong and stayed as well.
.

Heb 5:11  concerning whom we have much discourse and of hard explanation to say, since ye have become dull of hearing,
Heb 5:12  for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,
Heb 6:1  Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
Heb 6:2  of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,
Heb 6:3  and this we will do, if God may permit,

Heb 5:11  concerning whom we have much discourse and of hard explanation to say, since ye have become dull of hearing,
Heb 5:12  for even owing to be teachers, because of the time, again ye have need that one teach you what are the elements of the beginning of the oracles of God, and ye have become having need of milk, and not of strong food,
Heb 6:1  Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God,
Heb 6:2  of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on also of hands, of rising again also of the dead, and of judgment age-during,
Heb 6:3  and this we will do, if God may permit,

And I will have to say on many things, a mystery still surrounds me. This, what I ask is one of those we have debated and discussed this before....
I am given to see some of it but remain surrounded by questions. God is Spirit John 4:24
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
It would be ignorant for me to say that all things did not have beginning in God who is Spirit, I believe this adamantly.
I treasure this verse Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.

This one also, Ecc 1:6 Going to the south and turning around to the north, Around and around the wind is going, Yet on its courses the wind returns."
Ecc 1:7 All the watercourses are flowing to the sea, Yet there is no filling of the sea; To the place from which the watercourses are flowing, There they return to go forth again."

These verses and many more make me reason that all returns to where it came from and when that reasoning man also must have been spirit at the beginning and to the spirit he will return. I like it, I want to believe it. Men of God who I have read and recieved their words to be a truth, Eby, Prinzing, Roach but now this year within the last 6 months, I question this. Why?
How do I descern, understand and put into this equation the words of Paul    1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

How is it that Paul teaches that man was first in the natural and then the spirit "The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."?
Against the stand that that all will return to spirit where they were first?

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

This may be the key to it.  If we were lowered, maybe we didn't have a body previously. " Sacrifice and offerings I did not desire, but a body you prepared for me."

One thing that pops out to me with the line of questioning is that IN THIS WORLD natural takes precedence over spiritual.  The first Adam BECAME a living soul . . .what was he before he "became" something else?  The principles of the kingdom will ALWAYS be backwards to natural reasoning.  In this realm, flesh comes first and then spirit.

I think the reason you struggle is because you are seeing different things in different dimensions, thinking that it's all pertaining to "one" dimension.  To see that rivers are formed from water's accumulating in the air, the rivers pour into oceans and the oceans never increase in depth, but instead, the water evaporates back into the invisible air again . . ."that" is really how we came to be as well, and you can see that . . .it's the "big" picture.

But then when you pull up the passage of Paul, you've left the big picture, and now are looking at a more specific perspective.  It doesn't make it any less true, it's merely speaking on a different level of understanding.  Paul's not trying to explain where man originated . . .keep it in the context. 

Quote from: RHMIt is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

:thumbsup:   What is sown?

Quote from: NathanThe first Adam BECAME a living soul . . .what was he before he "became" something else?

:thumbsup:     Good question.

Micah, just my  :2c: but just because Eby, Prinzing, Roach, say something doesn't make it so. I have found that there are at least one flaw in the teachings of everyone. I don't believe there is one person who God gave the whole truth to. If you find that man I would like to meet him. Only God and Jesus Christ knows ALL things. 

Quote from: micah 7:9
How is it that Paul teaches that man was first in the natural and then the spirit "The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."?
Against the stand that that all will return to spirit where they were first?

I have wondered about this myself and my personal feelings are that, sure we came from God and will return to God but the question is, what were we when we came from God? If God breathed into Adam and he BECAME a living soul, doesn't that mean that Adam wasn't a living soul before God breathed into him? You might could say we were the breath of God, right? (Gen. 2:7) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE; and man became a living soul. Our breath is our life, our bodies came from the dust of the ground. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY HATH GIVEN ME LIFE.

Take the dry bones for instance. (Ezek. 37:5) behold I will cause BREATH to enter into you, and ye SHALL LIVE. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God hath made me and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Here we have Job saying that it is God's Spirit that made his body but God's breath gave him life. So, by the Spirit of God everything was made but God's breath is what gave everything life. Wow! we have the breath of God.

(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he {man} returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. It is only the breath of God that returns to God, everything else returns to dust.

The way I understand this is kind of like the dry bones. When we die we know nothing, our thoughts are dead, our body returns to dust and our breath returns to God.  When we are resurrected God breathes his breath back into us and we become a living being, without his breath we are dead beings. We put on a new coat which is a spiritual coat and we become spiritual beings.

CHB

Quote from: Nathan on November 29, 2011, 06:38:51 PM
One thing that pops out to me with the line of questioning is that IN THIS WORLD natural takes precedence over spiritual.  The first Adam BECAME a living soul . . .what was he before he "became" something else?  The principles of the kingdom will ALWAYS be backwards to natural reasoning.  In this realm, flesh comes first and then spirit.

I think the reason you struggle is because you are seeing different things in different dimensions, thinking that it's all pertaining to "one" dimension.  To see that rivers are formed from water's accumulating in the air, the rivers pour into oceans and the oceans never increase in depth, but instead, the water evaporates back into the invisible air again . . ."that" is really how we came to be as well, and you can see that . . .it's the "big" picture.

But then when you pull up the passage of Paul, you've left the big picture, and now are looking at a more specific perspective.  It doesn't make it any less true, it's merely speaking on a different level of understanding.  Paul's not trying to explain where man originated . . .keep it in the context.

"The principles of the kingdom will ALWAYS be backwards to natural reasoning.  In this realm, flesh comes first and then spirit." Nathan

What you say has some merit, but I am not given to see it that way anymore. Some 30 yrs ago I purchased a book " The Upside Down Kingdom," a lot of what you post on the forum reminds me of what I got out of that book, even bought into that way of thinking for a while. I struggle, as you say for the simple reason that for 20 years I believed and accepted the teaching that we were "spirit" and that we will return to "spirit." Still believe it or want to believe it; But the Lord had me to stumble on to Paul in 1Cor. 15. and Paul does not teach what I had accepted, there is my struggle. Bu I thank you Nathan. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: CHB on November 29, 2011, 08:04:16 PM
Micah, just my  :2c: but just because Eby, Prinzing, Roach, say something doesn't make it so. I have found that there are at least one flaw in the teachings of everyone. I don't believe there is one person who God gave the whole truth to. If you find that man I would like to meet him. Only God and Jesus Christ knows ALL things. 

Quote from: micah 7:9
How is it that Paul teaches that man was first in the natural and then the spirit "The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."?
Against the stand that that all will return to spirit where they were first?

I have wondered about this myself and my personal feelings are that, sure we came from God and will return to God but the question is, what were we when we came from God? If God breathed into Adam and he BECAME a living soul, doesn't that mean that Adam wasn't a living soul before God breathed into him? You might could say we were the breath of God, right? (Gen. 2:7) And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the BREATH OF LIFE; and man became a living soul. Our breath is our life, our bodies came from the dust of the ground. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God hath made me, and the BREATH OF THE ALMIGHTY HATH GIVEN ME LIFE.

Take the dry bones for instance. (Ezek. 37:5) behold I will cause BREATH to enter into you, and ye SHALL LIVE. (Job 33:4) The Spirit of God hath made me and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

Here we have Job saying that it is God's Spirit that made his body but God's breath gave him life. So, by the Spirit of God everything was made but God's breath is what gave everything life. Wow! we have the breath of God.

(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he {man} returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. It is only the breath of God that returns to God, everything else returns to dust.

The way I understand this is kind of like the dry bones. When we die we know nothing, our thoughts are dead, our body returns to dust and our breath returns to God.  When we are resurrected God breathes his breath back into us and we become a living being, without his breath we are dead beings. We put on a new coat which is a spiritual coat and we become spiritual beings.

CHB

May humbly say CHB you are very much in line of how the Lord is dropping hints so to speak. You are bold and honest. I hope we will text more. Thank you CHB I want do consider your thoughts more.  :HeartThrob: :cloud9: :bigGrin:

It's only one verse though Micah, why let it tangle you up and choke you.

As for me I will continue to study that verse and see if God says anything.

It seems to me that the bible teaches both, views. Maybe it is a matter of who it is.

Quote from: thinktank on November 29, 2011, 10:43:07 PM
It's only one verse though Micah, why let it tangle you up and choke you.

As for me I will continue to study that verse and see if God says anything.

It seems to me that the bible teaches both, views. Maybe it is a matter of who it is.

Here is 3 more.
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
Psa 103:14  For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Where does the Bible teach both?  Please that would help a lot, where is that teaching?  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on November 29, 2011, 11:02:21 PM

Quote from: thinktank on November 29, 2011, 10:43:07 PM
It's only one verse though Micah, why let it tangle you up and choke you.

As for me I will continue to study that verse and see if God says anything.

It seems to me that the bible teaches both, views. Maybe it is a matter of who it is.

Here is 3 more.
Gen 2:7  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.
Psa 103:14  For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust.
1Co 15:47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Where does the Bible teach both?  Please that would help a lot, where is that teaching?  :HeartThrob:

Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,


Numbers 16:22
And they fell upon their faces, and said, O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh, shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Judges 15:19
But God clave an hollow place that was in the jaw, and there came water thereout; and when he had drunk, his spirit came again, and he revived: wherefore he called the name thereof Enhakkore, which is in Lehi unto this day.

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

Romans 8:16
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

2 Corinthians 7:1
Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

That is just a small portion. There are also many scriptures in the psalms and also Paul talks about leaving his tabernacle to be with the lord. I have not even listed one scripture concerning the dozens of scriptures that talk of unclean spirits.

Psalm 143:7
Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.

Perhaps it's possible for some spirits to fail. While others live by stealing, but the saints live from the word of God, bread of life.

Which gives 3 spirits.
Those that fail and fall to the dust
Those that continue to live, such as Saul, Stephen, Paul, Elijah,
Those that steal, eat dust and are unclean fugitives.




I hope you enjoy reading these. God bless

Have you ever considered your meanings of "spirit, breath, life, and soul," as they weave their way through the scriptures?

You have offered many good verses, you overlooked Heb 12:9  Then, indeed, fathers of our flesh we have had, chastising us , and we were reverencing them ; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of the spirits, and live?
Then, indeed, fathers of our flesh we have had, chastising us , and we were reverencing them ; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of the life, lifes and live?


How do I understand if one were to read...Acts 7:59
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my life or breath.

Or Psalm 143:7
Hear me speedily, O LORD: my spirit faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the pit.
Hear me speedily, O LORD: my life, breath faileth: hide not thy face from me, lest I be like unto them that go down into the
pit.

Or Numbers 27:16
Let the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,
Let the LORD, the God of the life, breaths of all flesh, set a man over the congregation,

There is truly much to see and seek the truth from. God Bless :HeartThrob:

Isaiah 42:5
Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

I see breath and spirit as seperate.

Breath is life, a gift to all living things, living flesh, including animals. Breath plus flesh = living soul.

But spirit is the true nature of man, the inner candle, that scripture speaks of.

It's an interesting study, there is much to learn, about soul, heart, spirit, breath and what they mean.

I cannot fully understand the difference between soul and spirit, but I am aware that in scriptures soul is only spoken of in combination with a body, flesh and blood, whereas spirit is spoken of with and without a body.

Our soul needs to become immortal, at the resurection, through the death atonement of Jesus Christ, but the spirit needs to be cleansed by baptism of fire.

So I think, that as saints we will have 2 lives.

The spirit life, at death and dreams and translation type miracles.
And the soul life upon earth. Which has not yet happened, until the resurection and the establishment of Israel and Gods laws as Gods capital of the earth.

The spirit life, we access heaven and all kinds of worlds that exist in Gods kingdom
And the soul life we live on the earth, as victorious souls, that we reign for a thousand years.

Hi TT,

When Jesus died he said  "into thy hands I commend my spirit" yet after he was resurrected he told Mary "touch me not for I have not ascended to my Father".

How would you explain this?

CHB

This in only my opinion but should we begin as the Bible states....
(ASV)  And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(CLV) And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

(KJV)  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(YLT)  And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

I contend that "breath" holds within it life "chay"(regular everyday living life), and that within that life is a lamp, that the Lord can and will light when He will, then when it is lit, I contend  is when we are born anew, that spirit is what He deals with. Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

This I believe is when the "spirit" that is workable, that lamp is lit, that is when the "living soul-human being comes into the yielding state, clay workable.
Psa 18:28  For Thou--Thou lightest my lamp, Jehovah my God enlighteneth my darkness.

My opinion only.

Quote from: CHB on November 30, 2011, 02:01:10 AM
Hi TT,

When Jesus died he said  "into thy hands I commend my spirit" yet after he was resurrected he told Mary "touch me not for I have not ascended to my Father".

How would you explain this?

CHB

There might be another explanation, but here goes.

There is two of Jesus.

The spirit of Jesus is the word, I AM, Abrahams friend, Gods only Son.

But the Jesus who touched Jesus, is the Jesus that grew up as a human baby in the likeness of man, a living soul, who has developed a personality based on his upbringing, which is very Jewish, such as calling the samaritan woman a dog, but her faith accessed the spirit of Jesus and overcame his Jewish upbringing in order to bless her. As a human soul, Jesus relied on his Father most of the time, I do what the Father showeth. But sometimes relied on His spirit I AM, such as raising Lazarus from the grave. From his manner of speech I perceive that the Father did not tell Jesus to raise Lazarus.

So in brief , After Jesus soul rose from the grave he as a soul did not yet, ascend to the Father.

Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2011, 02:56:34 AM

Quote from: CHB on November 30, 2011, 02:01:10 AM
Hi TT,

When Jesus died he said  "into thy hands I commend my spirit" yet after he was resurrected he told Mary "touch me not for I have not ascended to my Father".

How would you explain this?

CHB

There might be another explanation, but here goes.

There is two of Jesus.

The spirit of Jesus is the word, I AM, Abrahams friend, Gods only Son.

But the Jesus who touched Jesus, is the Jesus that grew up as a human baby in the likeness of man, a living soul, who has developed a personality based on his upbringing, which is very Jewish, such as calling the samaritan woman a dog, but her faith accessed the spirit of Jesus and overcame his Jewish upbringing in order to bless her. As a human soul, Jesus relied on his Father most of the time, I do what the Father showeth. But sometimes relied on His spirit I AM, such as raising Lazarus from the grave. From his manner of speech I perceive that the Father did not tell Jesus to raise Lazarus.

So in brief , After Jesus soul rose from the grave he as a soul did not yet, ascend to the Father.

Thinktank, may I as how you come upon the handle "thinktank?"  As for me, I find it quite appropriate.

Thank you  :hihat: God is my inspiration.

Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2011, 02:56:34 AM
There might be another explanation, but here goes.

There is two of Jesus.

The spirit of Jesus is the word, I AM, Abrahams friend, Gods only Son.

But the Jesus who touched Jesus, is the Jesus that grew up as a human baby in the likeness of man, a living soul, who has developed a personality based on his upbringing, which is very Jewish, such as calling the samaritan woman a dog, but her faith accessed the spirit of Jesus and overcame his Jewish upbringing in order to bless her. As a human soul, Jesus relied on his Father most of the time, I do what the Father showeth. But sometimes relied on His spirit I AM, such as raising Lazarus from the grave.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing;.....

QuoteFrom his manner of speech I perceive that the Father did not tell Jesus to raise Lazarus.

So in brief , After Jesus soul rose from the grave he as a soul did not yet, ascend to the Father.

That happend over a month later.

Quote from: WhiteWings on November 30, 2011, 10:42:18 AM

Quote from: thinktank on November 30, 2011, 02:56:34 AM
There might be another explanation, but here goes.

There is two of Jesus.

The spirit of Jesus is the word, I AM, Abrahams friend, Gods only Son.

But the Jesus who touched Jesus, is the Jesus that grew up as a human baby in the likeness of man, a living soul, who has developed a personality based on his upbringing, which is very Jewish, such as calling the samaritan woman a dog, but her faith accessed the spirit of Jesus and overcame his Jewish upbringing in order to bless her. As a human soul, Jesus relied on his Father most of the time, I do what the Father showeth. But sometimes relied on His spirit I AM, such as raising Lazarus from the grave.

John 5:30 By myself I can do nothing;.....

QuoteFrom his manner of speech I perceive that the Father did not tell Jesus to raise Lazarus.

So in brief , After Jesus soul rose from the grave he as a soul did not yet, ascend to the Father.

That happend over a month later.

With exceptions to walking on water, healing the sick, raising the dead. My peace I give to you, not as the world gives


Rose from the dead 3 days later.

To clarify:
"That happend over a month later."

"That" points to ascending to heaven. Not resurrection itself.

Something I find fascinating re: natural first then spiritual;  is all the verses in the bible using the RE prefix (which means to me, a return).  ie:   REconciled, REvealed, REvelation, REnewing, REstoration, REpent etc.     

why the RE, if we are not REturning to something we were before; but have forgotten;   ???

maybe the "dead" know nothing; because they have forgotten their true nature;  and we are "waking" up to who we really are.  ARE as in no past and no future; but IS.   Dream land tends to make us "forget" the reality.   

This is the thought, reason, and theory, accepted, it would "seem" to be how man was "first" a spirit and (lowered) and to become a natural, earthy man(a living breathing in soul) and then to become a spiritual man or being.
Now I realize their are some who will express that this was not or is not how they came about their reasoning, but a revelation came to them without this knowledge, and that is okay. But J. Preston Eby who has for a long time offered much in his writings and known by many as a forerunner in many of who seek deeper things from Our Lord and Savio; and I believe he is a man that the Lord has blessed him greatly.
"Bro. Eby has so well written, we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience." (This is a quote from a Robert Torango letter I received as I asked other brothers about the subject.
I contend that if that is so, then I must figure that Paul wrote a riddle in 1Co 15:42  Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
1Co 15:44  It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
1Co 15:47  The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven:
1Co 15:48  As, the man of earth, such, also, the men of earth, and, as, the man of heaven, such, also, the men of heaven;
1Co 15:49  And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

I personally would like this understanding that Bro. Eby states to be a truth that I may lay this aside. I have mentioned earlier,  that I had accepted this offering of Bro. Eby for decades, it is just now that I am stumbling.  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 03:15:00 AM
This is the thought, reason, and theory, accepted, it would "seem" to be how man was "first" a spirit and (lowered) and to become a natural, earthy man(a living breathing in soul) and then to become a spiritual man or being.
Now I realize their are some who will express that this was not or is not how they came about their reasoning, but a revelation came to them without this knowledge, and that is okay. But J. Preston Eby who has for a long time offered much in his writings and known by many as a forerunner in many of who seek deeper things from Our Lord and Savio; and I believe he is a man that the Lord has blessed him greatly.
"Bro. Eby has so well written, we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience." (This is a quote from a Robert Torango letter I received as I asked other brothers about the subject.
I contend that if that is so, then I must figure that Paul wrote a riddle in 1Co 15:42  Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
1Co 15:44  It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
1Co 15:47  The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven:
1Co 15:48  As, the man of earth, such, also, the men of earth, and, as, the man of heaven, such, also, the men of heaven;
1Co 15:49  And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

I personally would like this understanding that Bro. Eby states to be a truth that I may lay this aside. I have mentioned earlier,  that I had accepted this offering of Bro. Eby for decades, it is just now that I am stumbling.  :HeartThrob:

i get eby's belief, and i get where u are coming from from these verses listed above.  but it doesn't explain to me, why the RE prefix, ie:  "raised in glory" to me would mean REsurrection.   "back to something, which would be in this case glory".  Micah, any thoughts as to the RE words in scripture.  ?? 

But it is not the spiritual life (Jesus the flesh man) which came first,
but the physical (Adam),
and then the spiritual (Jesus).

Adam, psuche, and individual living breath of the Elohim.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:55:46 AM


But it is not the spiritual life (Jesus the flesh man) which came first,
but the physical (Adam),
and then the spiritual (Jesus).

Adam, psuche, and individual living breath of the Elohim.

But, we..man was first a living soul/breathing creature. I believe at this beginning point that the spiritual Jesus is not yet in place. And saying that has no relation at this point at all. It may be just me.

Quote from: livingwater1 on December 02, 2011, 04:31:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 03:15:00 AM
This is the thought, reason, and theory, accepted, it would "seem" to be how man was "first" a spirit and (lowered) and to become a natural, earthy man(a living breathing in soul) and then to become a spiritual man or being.
Now I realize their are some who will express that this was not or is not how they came about their reasoning, but a revelation came to them without this knowledge, and that is okay. But J. Preston Eby who has for a long time offered much in his writings and known by many as a forerunner in many of who seek deeper things from Our Lord and Savio; and I believe he is a man that the Lord has blessed him greatly.
"Bro. Eby has so well written, we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience." (This is a quote from a Robert Torango letter I received as I asked other brothers about the subject.
I contend that if that is so, then I must figure that Paul wrote a riddle in 1Co 15:42  Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
1Co 15:44  It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
1Co 15:47  The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven:
1Co 15:48  As, the man of earth, such, also, the men of earth, and, as, the man of heaven, such, also, the men of heaven;
1Co 15:49  And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

I personally would like this understanding that Bro. Eby states to be a truth that I may lay this aside. I have mentioned earlier,  that I had accepted this offering of Bro. Eby for decades, it is just now that I am stumbling.  :HeartThrob:

i get eby's belief, and i get where u are coming from from these verses listed above.  but it doesn't explain to me, why the RE prefix, ie:  "raised in glory" to me would mean REsurrection.   "back to something, which would be in this case glory".  Micah, any thoughts as to the RE words in scripture.  ??

Good thoughts. We do return, there is a RE in all of this, I am waiting on the Lord. What Bro. Eby has taught has been in my belief for quite sometime, I am left without the understanding at this point, that is why I have posted.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 06:00:48 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:55:46 AM


But it is not the spiritual life (Jesus the flesh man) which came first,
but the physical (Adam),
and then the spiritual (Jesus).

Adam, psuche, and individual living breath of the Elohim.

But, we..man was first a living soul/breathing creature. I believe at this beginning point that the spiritual Jesus is not yet in place. And saying that has no relation at this point at all. It may be just me.

Except for the fact that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen.

so...

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

"we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience."  This is either an assumption with good intent or it is a theory and thought. I have stated and believe that God is Spirit and that ALL things come form God. It is a TRUTH. So most certainly as ALL things come from God, who is spirit, all must be from the spirit. But man was FIRST(foremost, first in line in place and time) a soullish earthy breathing creature.
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
And to say that man, the man of Genesis 2:7 was a spirit lowered to a state of what we call humanity only to go through the path of this life to return again to the spirit is not inline with what Paul teaches in 1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
  1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 06:10:38 AM

The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen.

so...

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Beloved, "The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen." where did you get this "fragmenting" of Himself to create what is seen? Now we have a God who is inpart? From my understanding God is ONE.

The creation was thrust OUT OF Christ, lowered into this gross material realm. This we have verified in the following scriptures: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20). Again, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). I do not wish to appear to be "splitting hairs" nor do I wish to invent doctrines, but to me it is infinitely important to pay special attention to the word "foundation" in the passages just quoted. Foundation is from the Greek word KATABOLE, derived from KATABALLO, which is a compound of two words, KATA, meaning "down", and BALLO, meaning "to throw". The precise meaning of the word is "to throw down" and bespeaks, moreover, a rupture, breach, breaking or tearing assunder, schism, scission, fission - a disruption. It does not mean, as our Authorized Version has it, the establishing of the foundation of the world, but, conversely, the breaking up or disruption of the world! The Concordant Version of the New Testament correctly renders it thus: "Christ ... a flawless and unspotted Lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world." Again, "...the Lambkin which has been slain from the disruption of the world."

The question readily follows: When did this disruption of the world occur? It will be helpful to turn to Gen. 1:1-2 wherein we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The first verse contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act. Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word study of this second verse will reveal.

In the Authorized Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word in the Hebrew text is also translated "but", or "moreover". Thus in the Septuagint version of the scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible was". The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became", so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became". This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become..." Tohu v'bohu! This phrase, "tohu v'bohu", is translated in the American Revision waste and void". In the Authorized Version it reads, "without form and void", but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says, "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makes the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life. The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined, unfurnished, disrupted, fragmented and chaotic, covered with water and shrouded in darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters. Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation, or re-creation. Isaiah states that God created the earth not a waste (Isa. 45:18) and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste.

When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation.

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

Quote from: livingwater1 on December 02, 2011, 04:31:30 AM
i get eby's belief, and i get where u are coming from from these verses listed above.  but it doesn't explain to me, why the RE prefix, ie:  "raised in glory" to me would mean REsurrection.   "back to something, which would be in this case glory".  Micah, any thoughts as to the RE words in scripture.  ??

RE is English. Not Hebrew of Greek.

Quote from: CHB on December 02, 2011, 07:57:36 AM

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

That just about where I am found on this CHB. Also Beloved, are those your words that you m posted?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 06:42:14 AM



The creation was thrust OUT OF Christ, lowered into this gross material realm. This we have verified in the following scriptures: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20). Again, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). I do not wish to appear to be "splitting hairs" nor do I wish to invent doctrines, but to me it is infinitely important to pay special attention to the word "foundation" in the passages just quoted. Foundation is from the Greek word KATABOLE, derived from KATABALLO, which is a compound of two words, KATA, meaning "down", and BALLO, meaning "to throw". The precise meaning of the word is "to throw down" and bespeaks, moreover, a rupture, breach, breaking or tearing assunder, schism, scission, fission - a disruption. It does not mean, as our Authorized Version has it, the establishing of the foundation of the world, but, conversely, the breaking up or disruption of the world! The Concordant Version of the New Testament correctly renders it thus: "Christ ... a flawless and unspotted Lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world." Again, "...the Lambkin which has been slain from the disruption of the world."

The question readily follows: When did this disruption of the world occur? It will be helpful to turn to Gen. 1:1-2 wherein we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The first verse contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act. Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word study of this second verse will reveal.

In the Authorized Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word in the Hebrew text is also translated "but", or "moreover". Thus in the Septuagint version of the scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible was". The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became", so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became". This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become..." Tohu v'bohu! This phrase, "tohu v'bohu", is translated in the American Revision waste and void". In the Authorized Version it reads, "without form and void", but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says, "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makes the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life. The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined, unfurnished, disrupted, fragmented and chaotic, covered with water and shrouded in darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters. Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation, or re-creation. Isaiah states that God created the earth not a waste (Isa. 45:18) and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste.

When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation.

Beloved I read almost the same thing on the word foundation- katabole in Dake's Bible. From my studies in Genesis, the word beginning can in part be read as "firstfruits." And with that thought I can reason that in/out of Jesus Christ was the creating. I reason and believe that ALL is created "bara" cut down or from Jesus Christ. And should that be true then the flesh man Jesus was not just a flesh man but He was Spirit all the time, so the what be the sense of it all?
1Co 15:15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused."
1Co 15:16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith - you are still in your sins!"
1Co 15:18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished."
1Co 15:19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we."


May I also note that Dake considers at the time of this "katabole" was caused by "lucifer" attempting to usurp God's throne and failing, "lucifer" aka satan the devil was "thrown down" to our earthly realm to rule.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 08:38:29 AM

Quote from: CHB on December 02, 2011, 07:57:36 AM

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

That just about where I am found on this CHB. Also Beloved, are those your words that you m posted?

NO.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm

I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

1961    hayah (224a); a prim. root; to fall out

Now tell me friend are you going to begin to build on that one out taking? "to fall out?"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) -----
1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
1a1b) to come about, come to pass
1a2) to come into being, become
1a2a) to arise, appear, come
1a2b) to become
1a2b1) to become
1a2b2) to become like
1a2b3) to be instituted, be established
1a3) to be
1a3a) to exist, be in existence
1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
1a3d) to accompany, be with
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root [compare H1933]
Same Word by TWOT Number: 491
Strongs
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 09:17:18 AM



I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

How is this? Is this true? Where can I find this information please?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 10:01:58 AM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 09:17:18 AM



I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

"When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation." From the artical.

I believe this, God lower the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Chirst, for ALL are in/of Christ the firstfruits;
Still this being know and acknowledged when He formed man from the dust of the ground, in my opinion, He did this not in a "spirit form" but of and in the natural/earthy form. The first man was of the earth, this then is where He begins His work and this man will return to the dust, not to the spirit, but the second Adam, the "new creature" born from above is of the spirit. this man will not return to the spirit for he is "of" the spirit being born again, from above.

Quote from: livingwater1 on December 02, 2011, 02:12:10 AM
Something I find fascinating re: natural first then spiritual;  is all the verses in the bible using the RE prefix (which means to me, a return).  ie:   REconciled, REvealed, REvelation, REnewing, REstoration, REpent etc.     

why the RE, if we are not REturning to something we were before; but have forgotten;   ???

You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Quote from: lomarah on December 02, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

:cloud9: That's exactly what happened to us. A spirit of forgetfulness was placed on us (carnal mind) and the mind of Christ is allowing us to recall things. He spoke to me while I was studying the Word, not too long after I came to Him, and He said, "You're not really learning this, you're REMEMBERING it." Being a newbie, I didn't realize what He had said to me was going to produce an earthquake in anyone I told, LOL....I thought it was my duty to tell what I heard. I was the poster child for having zeal without knowledge.  :icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 04:05:43 PM


hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 04:05:43 PM


hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

Quote from: Cardinal on December 02, 2011, 04:28:36 PM

Quote from: lomarah on December 02, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

:cloud9: That's exactly what happened to us. A spirit of forgetfulness was placed on us (carnal mind) and the mind of Christ is allowing us to recall things. He spoke to me while I was studying the Word, not too long after I came to Him, and He said, "You're not really learning this, you're REMEMBERING it." Being a newbie, I didn't realize what He had said to me was going to produce an earthquake in anyone I told, LOL....I thought it was my duty to tell what I heard. I was the poster child for having zeal without knowledge.  :icon_jokercolor:

Amen, card.

Christ, the many-membered man is re-membered.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:20:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 04:05:43 PM


hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

yes.

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 05:27:59 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:20:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 04:05:43 PM


hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

yes.

So...
Adam did not "become" anything.

...that he wasn't already.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:35:04 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 05:27:59 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:20:59 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 02, 2011, 04:47:43 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 04:05:43 PM


hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

yes.

So...
Adam did not "become" anything.

Well, he did in the sense that a lump of clay = I AM=a living soul.

...and that Adam's life is not his own but is I AM

whew!   this thread give me 'the shivvies"

   and 'satan' has a prroblem...of who he actually attacks and tries to kill and condemn...it is GOD![no weapon formed against you will suceed]

    I AMbush!!!

HEhehehehehehe Sheila I AMbush! hahahahaha

Quote from: Cardinal on December 02, 2011, 04:28:36 PM

Quote from: lomarah on December 02, 2011, 03:04:05 PM
You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

:cloud9: That's exactly what happened to us. A spirit of forgetfulness was placed on us (carnal mind) and the mind of Christ is allowing us to recall things. He spoke to me while I was studying the Word, not too long after I came to Him, and He said, "You're not really learning this, you're REMEMBERING it." Being a newbie, I didn't realize what He had said to me was going to produce an earthquake in anyone I told, LOL....I thought it was my duty to tell what I heard. I was the poster child for having zeal without knowledge.  :icon_jokercolor:

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
I've been there too Card!! (Zeal without knowledge.) Still slip up sometimes on that one haha.

Lomorah,

   My grand-daughter and I have been watching that show,also.   the 'witch' is babylon with her majic spells. Snow white is Jerusalem above,her daughter

   the 'only daughter of her 'mothe/betrothedr' her son=the manchild.   hidden in parables :dontknow:

I know it's crazy how similar it is, eh??? After every show I am just blown away.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 05:45:15 PM


...and that Adam's life is not his own but is I AM

Sir you have certainly given much to think about. Thank you. Still in this sense and understanding, in my opinion(which does not seem to be much) the I AM is just having an on going battle with Himself, and inner conflict of good and bad, light and darkness, and the living/breathing soul is neurotic. :sigh:
But thank you for bringing that to my attention again, just never thought about it as you speak of it, and it is very interesting all over again. Thank you again. :HeartThrob:

I most certainly brings this verse into a greater understanding Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 10:00:15 AM
Now tell me friend are you going to begin to build on that one out taking? "to fall out?"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) -----
1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
1a1b) to come about, come to pass
1a2) to come into being, become
1a2a) to arise, appear, come
1a2b) to become
1a2b1) to become
1a2b2) to become like
1a2b3) to be instituted, be established
1a3) to be
1a3a) to exist, be in existence
1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
1a3d) to accompany, be with
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root [compare H1933]
Same Word by TWOT Number: 491
Strongs
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

Fall out, as in fall out of a sky, dropping seed into the earth, fruit falling out from tree, bringing forth much fruit

It is written, sown a natural body.

:icon_flower:

I get  your point TT, yet there are SEVERAL other meanings as well. Why did or do you just lift our "fall?"

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 02, 2011, 11:44:50 PM
I get  your point TT, yet there are SEVERAL other meanings as well. Why did or do you just lift our "fall?"

Not sure what you mean.

....Adam ..., who is the figure of him that was to come.

--Rom 5:14


"figure"
G3667
ὁμοίωμα
homoiōma
hom-oy'-o-mah
From G3666; a form; abstractly resemblance: - made like to, likeness, shape, similitude.

   
ὁμοίωμα

Derivation: from G3666;
KJV Usage: made like to, likeness, shape, similitude. G3666
Thayer:
1) that which has been made after the likeness of something
1a) a figure, image, likeness, representation
1b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity
Trench's New Testament Synonyms
Image

It's all about the garden, Micah!
We're hedged in.

yep.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1lTJUFHiOE

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 02, 2011, 09:45:15 AM



  "  ...and that Adam's life is not his own but is I AM"


Sir you have certainly given much to think about. Thank you. Still in this sense and understanding, in my opinion(which does not seem to be much) the I AM is just having an on going battle with Himself, and inner conflict of good and bad, light and darkness, and the living/breathing soul is neurotic. :sigh:

I would seem to me, in my opinion that there is much assumption and wishful imagination in the "how comes" that were spirit first.
But thank you for bringing that to my attention again,( "become and I AM=same) just never thought about it as you speak of it, and it is very interesting all over again. Thank you again. :HeartThrob:

It most certainly brings this verse into a greater understanding Php 2:13  for God it is who is working in you both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

"I think you make an error when you say man was at first a spirit.  The scriptures do not support that view, and Science knows nothing about spirit so we must rely upon God and the scriptures for the truth.

Before I was born, I did not exist.  When I was born, God gave me the spirit of life, and I became a living soul or being.  When I die, my unconscious spirit returns to God, my body becomes dust, and my soul, my sentient being ceases to be and goes to the unknown.  My thoughts cease." John from Kentucky

I would only change " my unconscious spirit returns to God." to my unconscious breath returns to God.

2Ti 4:2  preach the word; be earnest in season, out of season, convict, rebuke, exhort, in all long-suffering and teaching,
2Ti 4:3  for there shall be a season when the sound teaching they will not suffer, but according to their own desires to themselves they shall heap up teachers--itching in the hearing,
2Ti 4:4  and indeed, from the truth the hearing they shall turn away, and to the fables they shall be turned aside.

I do not, in my opinion, find this to be sound doctrine..."Bro. Eby has so well written, we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience."

Oh sweet Micah;
We are His sons.
We exist in Him (Seed) and His Wisdom (Christ) birthed us.

Staying within the "Chicken or the Egg" idea; for those who believe in a "Second Coming," (staying within a basic teaching of Paul)

1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

Will Jesus return in the physical or in spirit?  :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 05, 2011, 08:03:19 PM
Staying within the "Chicken or the Egg" idea; for those who believe in a "Second Coming," (staying within a basic teaching of Paul)

1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."

Will Jesus return in the physical or in spirit?  :HeartThrob:

Jesus has already returned in spirit, but his resurected body that the disciples handled, has yet to appear.

Oh.  Do you have any verses for this?  Also does that nullify this basic teaching of Paul?
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 
How does Him coming in the natural "again" figure in?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 05, 2011, 08:29:37 PM
Oh.  Do you have any verses for this?  Also does that nullify this basic teaching of Paul?
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 
How does Him coming in the natural "again" figure in?

Even though its physical God deems it as spiritual, for it is not fashioned as our vile body but towards his glorious body.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Are you a lawyer? :bigGrin:

Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

CHB, you bring up very good points, but reading again Jabcats post, we just about have to stop our questioning, Why? Well to continue to delve into more information, we unfortunately must dip into one of them taboo subjects. And we cant go there. At least that is my opinion.

I was looking for more information on this and came across this site.

http://www.letusreason.org/LDS24.htm

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

:bigGrin:  I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

However, even putting that aside, it still doesn't explain God, Who is Spirit.  Wasn't He first, and hasn't He ALWAYS been Spirit?  When was He "natural" first?

I John 4:2    Of course He CAME in the flesh.  Where was He before that?  I believe scripture teaches He was with the Father.

Same thing with 2 John 1:7

IMO, neither one of those verses has anything to do with an initial earthly creation of Jesus, as if He never existed in any form at all prior to that.   They're saying He did leave His place and COME to earth for a season and a purpose.

 

Quote from: jabcat
  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

Right!! I agree with this. I was just saying that Jesus didn't exist as Jesus before he became human. Adam didn't exist as Adam before he was made, created, was or became human. Maybe this is what we are missing??? I don't know.  :dontknow: it was just a thought I had.

I do think a lot of things are assumed about this topic, like we agreed to become human and forgot who we are. Other things like this that are no where in the Bible.

CHB

OK, I hear ya sis.  Good, thanks.  :dsunny:

I looked up some interesting scrips I may post in a bit. 

Heb 2:9  and him who was made. Now where do we go from here? We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

"I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural." Jabcat

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?  Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made

Yes, what or who was this Jesus, the man, the Saviour of the world Before He was MADE as the man? Again, We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?

No, my point was that CHB brought up Jesus the man   seemingly as if it were a beginning of the Son of God.  She clarified that's not exactly what she meant, but if it were,  I'm saying that's a technicality -  and addressing that the Son of God didn't suddenly come into existence when He was born a man - whether He had the NAME Jesus yet or not.   That He was in existence before that. 

I also said this;  "Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence...", in an attempt to circumvent the stumbling over that part of the issue as well.  I'm addressing the current thread of discussion, "natural/spirital", not all the other "side" issues.

I'm NOT making an argument regarding "that which is taboo".  I am saying, in accord with this thread, that I believe the Son of God was spirit first, then came to us in the natural.  And God, I don't see where He was ever "natural" first.  Maybe you see it differently.   Blessings.

Good scrips, everyone can see what they're given to see here.   :thumbsup:

Philippians 2:6-9 

Although He existed inherently in God's form, He didn't think that continuing on an equality with God was a thing to be forcibly taken;  rather, He emptied Himself, as He took the form of a slave and became like humans.  How when He was found in the temporary form like a human, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a stake.  For this reason too, God has highly elevated him, and favored Him with the name that is above every name ["Yesu" which means "Yehweh-Savior"]  The Christian Bible
------------

6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

8and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,

9wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,  YLT
-------------

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, NKJV
-----------------

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name  NAS
------------------

6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,  CLV

"I am saying, in accord with this thread, that I believe the Son of God was spirit first, then came to us in the natural." Jabcat

This  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. is the
thread that I began. Speaking about adam/man being first a living soul. Somehow adam/man became spirit first, and the second man was not in the question. Or maybe I'm in error?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 05, 2011, 08:29:37 PM
Oh.  Do you have any verses for this?  Also does that nullify this basic teaching of Paul?
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 
How does Him coming in the natural "again" figure in?

Sorry, I was just addressing that.

Quote from: CHB on December 05, 2011, 09:38:54 PM

Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2011, 08:53:30 PM
I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

Actually if you know Jesus as Y'shuah, you will see him all over the Old Testament.  So yes, he was first spiritual, and then physical;



Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14


I have longed for Y'shuah, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. [Psa 119:174]

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 12:41:51 AM
Heb 2:9  and him who was made. Now where do we go from here? We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

"I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural." Jabcat

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?  Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made

Yes, what or who was this Jesus, the man, the Saviour of the world Before He was MADE as the man? Again, We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.'    It means to decrease.  So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote,  there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]

First man Adam Earth ,The second Adam Lord from heaven?


In context maybe it means the resurection of the dead.

The first Adam brings death, but the second Adam the word made flesh is returning as the lord from heaven.

Since Jesus is spiritually form heaven, but physically he is from the earth, like adam, born of a woman and the seed of Abraham.

So maybe the reference is pertaining to the Resurected lord from heaven who returns as the lord from heaven, that where he is we may be also.


The second Adam cannot be from heaven, unless he has been resurected, in the likness of Adam.
Otherwise the passage should read not the second Adam, but simply the Lord returns as God. But it says the second Adam is the Lord from heaven, thereby this Lord must be in the likeness of man( second Adam), and the only Lord that is man, is Jesus Christ the son of man, for ye see this Jesus whom ye have crucified has been made both lord and saviour and resurected from the dead, thus qualifies as he who ascended into heaven sitting at the right hand of God as seen by Stephen, and is now our high priest and we become fashioned into his glorious body,  The first Adam was of the earth, but the second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

Of course its just me, but perhaps going back to the original post would make things easier for me. It had nothing to do with the second adam but had to do with the first adam. So here is the middle at least. I do not see how we got to, "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.'    It means to decrease.  So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote,  there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]" Molly


I am given to see some of it but remain surrounded by questions. God is Spirit John 4:24
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
It would be ignorant for me to say that all things did not have beginning in God who is Spirit, I believe this adamantly.
I treasure this verse Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.

This one also, Ecc 1:6 Going to the south and turning around to the north, Around and around the wind is going, Yet on its courses the wind returns."
Ecc 1:7 All the watercourses are flowing to the sea, Yet there is no filling of the sea; To the place from which the watercourses are flowing, There they return to go forth again."

These verses and many more make me reason that all returns to where it came from and when that reasoning man also must have been spirit at the beginning and to the spirit he will return. I like it, I want to believe it. Men of God who I have read and recieved their words to be a truth, Eby, Prinzing, Roach but now this year within the last 6 months, I question this. Why?
How do I descern, understand and put into this equation the words of Paul    1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

How is it that Paul teaches that man was first in the natural and then the spirit "The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."?
Against the stand that that all will return to spirit where they were first?

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23



Where is he sending these righteous men from?

And, what makes them righteous to begin with?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Eph 1:4

I do so regret my original post. I had no idea of the can of unrelated worms it would open. Please overlook anything I may have said in this thread, I had no idea what I was talking about, whatever I said is without thought or cause. I do ask your forgiveness for my silly and without substance statements. I just don't know what happened.

Quote from: MicahOf course its just me, but perhaps going back to the original post would make things easier for me. It had nothing to do with the second adam but had to do with the first adam. So here is the middle at least. I do not see how we got to, "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.' It means to decrease. So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote, there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]" Molly

You don't see how we got here, yet you are the one who brought it up.  I was just answering your post.

But since we are here:  Thus it is written

The first man Adam became
The last Adam [ became ]

The first man Adam was made
The last Adam [ was made]

Paul often writes in parallel like this to make a point.

The word for 'became' is 'ginomai' and it means 'to cause to be' that is 'to become.'

Now we know that Jesus was not starting out as a man at all, much less a man who is a quickening spirit, but he was caused to be this for a purpose, as was Adam, by extension of the parallel,  caused to be a living soul for a purpose.

So if we look at the microcosm of Adam as man and Jesus as man, this is what we see--first the natural, then the spiritual. 

And Paul asks--how is that? or why is that?

Then he goes on to say [in the course of things] as we have born the image of the earthy, we will bear the image of the heavenly.

So there's more to this than meets the eye.

Because we know it was always God's intent that we would be HIS image bearers, in his likeness and image.

Quote from: Molly on December 06, 2011, 03:08:20 AM
So if we look at the microcosm of Adam as man and Jesus as man, this is what we see--first the natural, then the spiritual. 

And Paul asks--how is that? or why is that?

Then he goes on to say [in the course of things] as we have born the image of the earthy, we will bear the image of the heavenly.

as i said, i haven't studied this out...so is this the "context" i've been suggesting there must be?  i.e., that it's talking about "earthly things", not addressing heavenly things?   if so, that would certainly take into account my questions of the Father and the Son first being spiritual...as opposed to what happens in the natural domain...if the context of Paul's statement is that, then it makes perfect sense and fits in perfectly.  again, no contradictions, but sometimes it's hard to understand/rightly divide.   :thumbsup:

You got that right, "So there's more to this than meets the eye." If only it could be seen.
So, was the first adam/man first natural or spiritual?

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

--Eph 1



And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 03:28:32 AM
You got that right, "So there's more to this than meets the eye." If only it could be seen.
So, was the first adam/man first natural or spiritual?

Here is what I believe--

The first man Adam, the son of God,  was caused to become [a natural man] a living soul, so that the kinsman Redeemer, the last Adam, would partake in flesh and blood and become a life giving Spirit to redeem him, thereby redeeming the entire world in the process.

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.  Mat 13:44

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. [1 Cor 6:20]

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:  Ex 14:9

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 04:09:40 AM
Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

I'm not sure if you're kidding or not brother, but I have those moments myself...had one just today.   :mblush:

Serious, my friend, serious.

Quote from: jabcat on December 05, 2011, 11:57:27 PM
:bigGrin:  I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

However, even putting that aside, it still doesn't explain God, Who is Spirit.  Wasn't He first, and hasn't He ALWAYS been Spirit?  When was He "natural" first?

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup: the physical man Jesus was the veil He hid behind, but that veil was rent. He said to the disciple who would not believe without seeing the rent veil again, blessed are those who believed without seeing (the rent veil with natural eyes). Blessings....

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 04:09:40 AM
Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

Quote from: CHB on December 06, 2011, 05:06:39 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 04:09:40 AM
Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

Quote from: thinktank on December 06, 2011, 09:35:59 PM

Quote from: CHB on December 06, 2011, 05:06:39 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 06, 2011, 04:09:40 AM
Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

Why do you say that?

CHB

I guess I find it hard to believe he has changed his mind, but we'll see.

The joke works on many levels.

Quote from: thinktank on December 06, 2011, 09:35:59 PM
Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

Why not? It's a good thing  :laughing7:

7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

Wait.

I'm still under the impression that there is no Hebrew word for "become."

Is there not one translation of the Bible that avoids using it?

Hmmm...


The word shown here — u iei — is not the word "hayah" that is used in other translations.

Gotten here:   http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

[attachment deleted by admin]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

what does it profit a man of he gain the world but lose his soul.

You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

Quote from: thinktank on December 07, 2011, 09:47:49 PM
what does it profit a man of he gain the world but lose his soul.

"...man became a living soul..."  Lev 17:11  For as for the life of the flesh, in the blood,..."

In my opinion, what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his "life."

Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2011, 10:34:11 PM
You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

How did we get to #4 when I have not found a step #3? and of course man is immortal, I forgot that :sigh:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 10:38:27 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 07, 2011, 10:34:11 PM
You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

How did we get to #4 when I have not found a step #3? and of course man is immortal, I forgot that :sigh:

Ok.  I got lost in your steps.  You said there was no step three.

So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality.

And we are restored through Jesus to that immortality.

This is all about the law too.

Adam's immortality is conditional on Adam following the law [don't eat from that tree].

But, our immortality through Jesus is unconditional.  He has fulfilled the law for us.

Now, I must ask when we read about this whole man way back in Genisis 2 and 7 help me count the parts/steps.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1) formed man of the dust of the ground

2)  breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

3)  ?

and man became a living soul.

As for, "So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality." (Molly) That's how you see it huh?

It just seems to me that there are some pages in my Bible(s) that omit these very important step or parts. I know of no "immortality" until Romans 2:7

(ASV)  to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

(CLV) to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;"

(KJV)  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


(Rotherham)  Unto them, on the one hand, who, by way of endurance in good work, are seeking, glory, honour and incorruption, life age-abiding,

(WNT)  to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality, the Life of the Ages;

(YLT)  to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;
Now I see you call it "conditional" immortality, but in so doing aren't you assuming that the Lord God did not figure that man/adam would eat of the tree?

Quote from: MicahAs for, "So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality." (Molly) That's how you see it huh?

Well yes, and who knows how long Adam spent in the garden.  Maybe it was ten thousand years.

But, as long as he was there, he had conditional immortality for as long as he obeyed the law.

We see a similar thing going on with the Israelites in Deut 28--as long as you keep my commandments and harken to my voice all these wonderful things will happen to you, but if you don't, all these terrible things will happen to you.

Again, conditional on obeying God's commandments.

But, through Christ, we have unconditional immortality.

We are immortal now.

 :sigh:    Think so huh?

Satan's trinity of man

The adversary has a trinity teaching and that doctrine is taught in all of Chistianity, and believed. What is it? It's the teaching that man is made up of body-soul- spirit.
That man has an immortal soul. I at one time accepted the teaching, drew charts and taught it, until my eyes were opened.

1Th 5:23  and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Clarke commentary: Your whole spirit and soul and body - Some think that the apostle alludes to the Pythagorean and Platonic doctrine, which was acknowledged among the Thessalonians. I should rather believe that he refers simply to the fact, that the creature called man is a compound being, consisting,
1.   Of a body, σωμα, an organized system, formed by the creative energy of God out of the dust of the earth; composed of bones, muscles, and nerves; of arteries, veins, and a variety of other vessels, in which the blood and other fluids circulate.
2.   Of a soul, ψυχη, which is the seat of the different affections and passions, such as love, hatred, anger, etc., with sensations, appetites, and propensities of different kinds.
3.   Of spirit, πνευμα, the immortal principle, the source of life to the body and soul, without which the animal functions cannot be performed, how perfect soever the bodily organs may be; and which alone possesses the faculty of intelligence, understanding, thinking, and reasoning, and produces the faculty of speech wherever it resides, if accident have not impaired the organs of speech.
"1Th 5:23 Himself but the God of the peace may sanctify you entirely; and whole of you the spirit and the life and the body blameless in the presence of the Lord of us Jesus Anointed may be preserved."   (Emp. Diag.)

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 08:14:41 PM
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 01:59:59 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 07, 2011, 08:14:41 PM
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 02:53:50 AM



If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

He must or perhaps Jesus did not die?

Jesus — Himself — freely laid His life down and took it up again.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 03:59:07 AM


Jesus — Himself — freely laid His life down and took it up again.

Yes and Glory! But He was a man/human being and He laid it down to die. I, praise the Lord, if I may say it, have laid my life/soul down as well, and I will die. Die whether it is the death appointed to all men or the the spiritual death to self. But indeed, should I not die, I cannot be resurrected as my Saviour Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:16  for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

Then we are right back to:


If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

and

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 05:00:41 AM


Then we are right back to:


If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

and

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

Again it is my ignorance showing. I do not know what you are saying or asking. I have more ignorance that smarts, I'm sorry Beloved, I am dense at times.

Removed by Micah, reason, beating a dead horse,

Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. [1Thess 5:21]

and may your whole
spirit pneuma
soul psuche   
body soma   


BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.  Acts 2:27

NT Soul = psuche
OT Soul= nephesh [psa 16:10]

And Yeshua called out in a loud voice and he said, "My Father, into your hands I lay down my spirit." He said this and he expired. [Lk 23:46]

spirit=pneuma

For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. [eccl 12:7]

spirit= ruach

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.[1 Sam 31:12]

body=g'viyah [alive or dead]



OT spirit ruarch=new testament spirit pneuma
OT soul nephesh=new testament soul psuche
OT body g'viyah=new testament body soma


:dontknow:

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.    LIE

Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,    TRUTH

And thus we build our religion.

I don't quite understand what you are saying Micah.

Are you saying there is something wrong with 1 thess 5:21 which refers to spirit, soul, and body?

Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2011, 08:04:11 AM
I don't quite understand what you are saying Micah.

Are you saying there is something wrong with 1 thess 5:21 which refers to spirit, soul, and body?

I'm saying

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.    LIE

Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,    TRUTH

And thus we build our religion.

1Th 5:21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Could you mean ?
1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

What I am saying is that 1Thes. 5: 23 is from a poem. Which leads to a misconception which you believe.


I am saying the formula body-soul-spirit is from the poem.

"Let this also may help us understand, the "body and soul" is acually taken from a poem, "Soul and Body refers to two anonymous Old English poems: Soul and Body I, which is found in the Vercelli Book, and Soul and Body II, found in the Exeter Book. It is one of the oldest poems to have survived in two manuscripts of Old English, each poem slightly different than the other. Despite the poems' differences (in structure and length, for example), the Soul and Body poems address similar themes, themes about the duality of human nature."
"Though the precise date of the Exeter Codex's inscription is still unknown, it may generally be described as one of the great works of the English Benedictine revival of the tenth century, and proposed dates of authorship generally range from 960 to 990. This period saw a rise in monastic activity and productivity under the renewed influence of Benedictine principles and standards. At the opening of the period, Dunstan's importance to the Church and to the English kingdom was established, culminating in his appointment to the Archbishopric at Canterbury under Edgar and leading to the monastic reformation by which this era was characterised. Dunstan died in 998, and by the period's close, England under Æthelred faced an increasingly determined Scandinavian incursion, to which it would eventually succumb.
The Exeter Book's heritage becomes traceable as of 1050, when Leofric was made Bishop at Exeter. Among the treasures which he is recorded to have bestowed upon the then-impoverished monastery is one famously described "mycel englisc boc be gehwilcum þingum on leoðwisan geworht" (i.e., "a large English book of poetic works about all sorts of things"). This book has been widely assumed to be the Exeter Codex as it survives today."  Wike

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 08:17:02 AM
What I am saying is that 1Thes. 5: 23 is from a poem. Which leads to a misconception which you believe.

Is from a poem?  You mean it isn't in the Bible?

Have you built your entire belief and doctrine on that one verse?  1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you really believe that the soul is separate entity from the body? That the soul is something other than the living being that we are? A person? Do you really believe in an immortal soul? Do you really believe that the soul will not die? I you believe what I asked then, I just wonder what Bible you have put your faith in. The soul is life, it is our spirit, the spirit(breath) keeps our body alive. Is there another verse that speaks of a body soul and spirit?

The words for body, soul, and spirit are all in both the Old and New Testaments.

You will not leave my soul in hades [so where is the soul going then? to heaven?]nor allow your holy one to see corruption [of the body].

But, meanwhile, my spirit has been commended into the father's hands.  So, spirit goes back to God [in heaven], but separated for a time from the soul [which is in hades] and the body [which is turning to dust].

So yes, I would say we are three parts--body, soul, and spirit.

Or what is Jesus redeeming?  Just our bodies? 

But, he has prepared a body for us in heaven until the redemption of the body takes place.

I'm not just depending on one scripture.

Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2011, 09:57:47 AM
The words for body, soul, and spirit are all in both the Old and New Testaments.

You will not leave my soul in hades [so where is the soul going then? to heaven?]nor allow your holy one to see corruption [of the body].

But, meanwhile, my spirit has been commended into the father's hands.  So, spirit goes back to God [in heaven], but separated for a time from the soul [which is in hades] and the body [which is turning to dust].

So yes, I would say we are three parts--body, soul, and spirit.

Or what is Jesus redeeming?  Just our bodies? 

But, he has prepared a body for us in heaven until the redemption of the body takes place.

I'm not just depending on one scripture.

I await the scriptures.  When you yield to a truth that in the OT a soul was a life or a person. Properly and according to His Word, "You will not leave my "life" in the pit/grave...hades.
The spirit of which you speak is the "breath of life." This wind is what makes the body(dust) breath-live-be alive. You continue to mix that the breath of life which is the spirit that God lites as a separate entity, that a soul can live without the breathing body. It cant. Does the Bible teach there will be a resurrection of the body or the resurrection of the dead? In my opinion you weld much of your belief to religion rather than the Word of God. Should we now have an immortal soul, what need does man have for the resurrection of the dead, to become what we already are? Please show me scripture of body-soul - and spirit. For that matter show me more than 1 Thes. 5:23. Molly I love you  :HeartThrob:

 :cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on December 08, 2011, 03:52:56 PM
:cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

Leviticus 26:11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

(Psalms 51:11 [CLV])
O do not fling me from Your presence, And do not take Your holy spirit from me."

Cardinal, what is attached to the body by the silver cord?  Is that the soul?

What about something like coma.  Has the soul left the body?  Has the spirit?

What do we identify ourselves with when we say 'I'?  the soul or the spirit?

Who is the observer?  That one who only watches?

If you know...

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

--Ecc 12

The silver cord connecting soul and body might be why Micah equates soul with life of the body.  If that silver cord is cut, the soul is no longer attached to the body, and death occurs.

Various things are discussed in this verse as the parts of a man or the things that man has access to:

silver cord

golden bowl

pitcher

fountain

wheel

cistern

Quote from: Cardinal on December 08, 2011, 03:52:56 PM
:cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

I aint never read a word of a "New Ager" or what ever, and the above is your opinion right? Because, in my opinion I have not found anywhere that God gave man a soul, call it the inner court if you wish. I have heard and followed and taught this trinity teaching of body soul and spirit for a long time and, in my opinion it is no longer sound doctrine. (Oh I see it is your 2 cents.)

I know the atheists around me believe you are just a body, they are total materialists, and of course, no God, so they believe that once the body dies, that's it.  You are dead, hook, line, and sinker.

Of course, I know better myself for many reasons, not the least of which I have left my own body twice, and I have seen the silver cord attaching 'me' to my body, experienced this before I ever read about it in the Bible.

So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?  But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?  What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?

What about this verse?

(1John 3:2)
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

CHB

when he "appears"

phaneroo

Manifests himself, reveals himself


When he reveals himself [in us] we shall be like him.


From phaneros which means 'shining.'

Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2011, 04:25:59 PM
Cardinal, what is attached to the body by the silver cord?  Is that the soul?

What about something like coma.  Has the soul left the body?  Has the spirit?

What do we identify ourselves with when we say 'I'?  the soul or the spirit?

Who is the observer?  That one who only watches?

If you know...

:cloud9:  The silver cord is the spiritual counterpart to the umbilical cord between mother and child. (Really brings the scripture about being born from above into focus, doesn't it?)  :winkgrin:

The soul leaves the body in a coma, which is why some of them report seeing themselves from a vantage point above their body. I saw myself this way after surgery when I was young, apparently from the anesthetics they gave me. This is why the enemy of our souls loves drug and alcohol addictions, because a loss of consciousness from abusing the temple can release the soul from the body, vacating it temporarily for demonic spirits to enter.

When the spirit leaves you die. The separation of spirit and soul is what happened in the garden. This is why the resurrection IS, the re-union of soul and spirit (which is why He went to preach to those that had gone before).

The really startling thing to me here of late, was to realize that HE did it (by taking Eve out of Adam essentially), knowing a divided house could not stand.

What they did, was a walking out of what had ALREADY been done, once again following the pattern of the body doing what it sees the head do.

The difference between Him doing it, and them doing it, was the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. My  :2c:  Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on December 08, 2011, 06:59:53 PM
I know the atheists around me believe you are just a body, they are total materialists, and of course, no God, so they believe that once the body dies, that's it.  You are dead, hook, line, and sinker.

Of course, I know better myself for many reasons, not the least of which I have left my own body twice, and I have seen the silver cord attaching 'me' to my body, experienced this before I ever read about it in the Bible.

So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?  But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?  What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?

"So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?"
I do not believe that God will bring our bodies from the dead. Where ever did you get that?

"But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?"
Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

" What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?"
I, unlike you it seems, believes what the Bible teaches. I know, I know that's just old David and Solomon, and God saying that.
I'll take their word for it.
Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face, shalt thou eat bread, until thou return to the ground, because therefrom, wast thou taken,—For, dust, thou art, And, unto dust, shalt thou return.
Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face, they are dismayed, Thou withdrawest their spirit, They cease to breathe, And, unto their own dust, do they return:
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Ecc 9:5  For, the living, knew that they should die,—-but, the dead, knew not, anything, neither had they any longer a reward, because forgotten was their memory.


By the way any luck on finding that verse that tells us where God put a soul in man?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If the soul is dead, how is Jesus the Savior of ALL mankind?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

Micah, not taking sides because I'm still not sure myself.
God created Adam from dust. Adam was nothing more that a dead lump of clay.
They God blew life into Adam. Adam became a living soul.
Note: Became is added by the translators. Hebrew: man living soul.
So it's clear that the breath gives life to the otherwise dead body.
The soul was already alive before it entered the body.
The dead body is dead. The Bible is clear about that. It speaks about decay and totally returing to dust.
So it's very clear the lump of clay needs the breath (of God) to be alive.
But does the breath need the body to stay alive?
And how do we die?

(Psalms 104:29 [ACV])
Thou hide thy face, they are troubled. Thou take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Perhaps to literal but if God takes the breath, it's in His hands. Aka it returned to God?


(Isaiah 55:11 [ACV])
so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. And it shall prosper in the thing to which I sent it.

I can find no matching words but in a way words are also breath. Likely taking things a bit to far
Back to Genesis.
(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I think we have a little formula here....

Dead dust + breath = living soul
Living soul - breath (taken away by God) = Dead dust
Living soul - dead dust = breath

So: Dead dust = dead soul  ==> Soul is just another word for dust.....?

:dontknow:

What if I compare it with a car and driver?

Car = body
gasoline = breath
Driver = spirit

The car drives until it runs out of gas (no more breath).
The car rusts until nothing is left. The drive take the stairway to heaven.


Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 09:58:56 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it.

Jesus tomb was empty and He walked around in a body. They didn't recognize Him at first but later they did. So I think that means God "upgraded" the dust of Jesus' body that was on earth for a few decades.
If the heavenly body is totally new I would think Jesus' old body would be left in the tomb to decay and God just gave Him another body.
:dontknow:

Quote from: wwWhere in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. [Gen 1]

God creates man in his own image.  God is spirit.  Man is spirit, also.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.[Job 32:8]

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [Rom 8:16]


spirit = ruach [Hebrew]= pneuma [Greek[

Man also has a physical component [dust and water] and a soul component.

"He restoreth my soul" (Psalm 23:3).

I Peter 3
:20 Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few,
that is,
eight souls were saved by water.

soul=psuche [Greek]

man became a living soul

soul=nephesh [Hebrew]

Thus, man is body [soma], spirit [pneuma], and soul [psuche].

My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. [Lk 1:46,47]

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul [psuche] and spirit [pneuma], and of the joints and marrow (body soma), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2011, 10:12:16 PM

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 08, 2011, 09:58:56 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it.


Jesus tomb was empty and He walked around in a body. They didn't recognize Him at first but later they did. So I think that means God "upgraded" the dust of Jesus' body that was on earth for a few decades.
If the heavenly body is totally new I would think Jesus' old body would be left in the tomb to decay and God just gave Him another body.
:dontknow:



If the soul is dead, how is Jesus the Savior of ALL mankind?

"[/quote]If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it."  Whose quote is this?

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2011, 10:04:36 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 08, 2011, 09:26:19 PM
Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

Micah, not taking sides because I'm still not sure myself.
God created Adam from dust. Adam was nothing more that a dead lump of clay.
They God blew life into Adam. Adam became a living soul.
Note: Became is added by the translators. Hebrew: man living soul.
So it's clear that the breath gives life to the otherwise dead body.
The soul was already alive before it entered the body.
The dead body is dead. The Bible is clear about that. It speaks about decay and totally returing to dust.
So it's very clear the lump of clay needs the breath (of God) to be alive.
But does the breath need the body to stay alive?
And how do we die?

(Psalms 104:29 [ACV])
Thou hide thy face, they are troubled. Thou take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Perhaps to literal but if God takes the breath, it's in His hands. Aka it returned to God?


(Isaiah 55:11 [ACV])
so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. And it shall prosper in the thing to which I sent it.

I can find no matching words but in a way words are also breath. Likely taking things a bit to far
Back to Genesis.
(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I think we have a little formula here....

Dead dust + breath = living soul
Living soul - breath (taken away by God) = Dead dust
Living soul - dead dust = breath

So: Dead dust = dead soul  ==> Soul is just another word for dust.....?

:dontknow:

What if I compare it with a car and driver?

Car = body
gasoline = breath
Driver = spirit

The car drives until it runs out of gas (no more breath).
The car rusts until nothing is left. The drive take the stairway to heaven.


Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

Had to leave WW I did not ignore your post. As always you bring up great thoughts. I owl be baach!  :bigGrin:

This discussion about soul versus spirit has been around on the forum in times past.  And I can't remember who it was that posted their view but it sparked a personal experience in my spirit that revealed "to me" what the defining characters are between flesh, soul and spirit.  Obviously there are many different points of view here and I've yet to see any "one" conversation where someone made a statement that caused everyone else to lay down their differences and embrace the direction of what was said . . .so this probably isn't going to be any different.  But for those out there who have not read this or have seen it before, I'll put it out here again.

I will agree that God did not give us a soul.  And I will also agree that my body, soul and spirit is the manifestation of the "whole" me.  I believe God is the same way in that the wholeness of God is the conglomoration of Father, Son and Spirit.  However, I also believe there are definitative separations of each of those elements and natures.  I believe the simplicity of the common chicken egg is a perfect example of all of these things.  There's the yoke, the white and the shell.  You can't remove one from the other without affecting the continuity of the whole.  I see our wholeness in the same way.  You can't separate my soul from my body without affecting the continuity of my wholeness of life.

So what happens when we die?  First, how did we get a soul in the first place?  I beleive it developed the instant God breathed SPIRIT into Adam's BODY.  Before that, it was just a carcass . . .made from dirt.  But when God breathed in it his life, breathed into it a spirit, it then "came" to life.  It BECAME a living soul.  It was one thing, but then after the breath of life it BECAME something else.  Man BECAME a living soul.  What happened?  The SPIRIT entered into the BODY . .two of the three main componants that make up our whole being . . .and when spirit entered into flesh, the soul . . .the EVIDENCE manifested. 

So, for me, my soul is the evidence that there is a spirit in my body. 

I don't see demons entering in when my soul is on the verge of leaving . . .that's a whole other doctrine in and of itself.  I beleive much of the demon doctrines is really more about the broken state of one's mind than anything.  There was a time when the church would rebuke a person who was mentally handicapped . . .now, we understand it isn't demonic at all, but it's merely a physical malfunctioning of the brain's activity within us.  I beleive that's just scratching the surface of what many attribute demons to . . .our minds are much more powerful than even we can possibly imagine.  I believe there are some who've triggered something in the depths of their consciousness that brings about many unusual manifestations that the consciousness of man can not understand but attempt to try to label "something" on it for their own personal comfort and control.  If I can give it an identity, I can control it's ability.  But as I said, that's a whole other matter.

It again begs the question as to where is there life in the message of what's being beleived?  I always cringe when someone almost demands Scripture and verse . . .it won't matter.  It's not the Scripture I have an issue with, it's the interpretations of others in the rendering of those Scriptures.  If God is light and he is in us and we're in him, how then can we carry so many beliefs and doctrines that inflict fear and darkness in others when it's just so unneccessary.  My enemy is not an invisible being that is out to kill me the first chance he gets.  Talk about spiritual schitzophrenea!   My worst enemy is the woman between my ears.

Ever wonder why God had to bring Eve out from Adam?  Why didn't he just create her from the dust as well?  For me, Eve is the outward manifestation of Adams soul.  He indeed represents spriit as she represents soul . . our spirit and soul are to be "married" as one.  And our soul is to submit to our spirit to allow the seed of life to be conceived within us so we may birth  offspring that are unified in his glory . . .spriitual offspring . . . in us there are nations . . .there are geneologies of who we are in Chrsit that has not even begun to birth in us yet.  But it's coming.

When I die . . .remember the example of when you take a transparent piece of colored glass and overlay it with a different colored piece of glass . . .the instant you do that, the two colors combined become three . . .for me, that third color is my soul.  It's the manifestation that the other two are combined.  Take one away from the other and the third disappears.  That again, I believe is what our soul does . . .my identity is not in my soul alone.  My identity, my LIFE is in my spirit.  My soul manifests when my spirit lives in this body.  The body doesn't live forever, it's only temporal.  My soul only manifests as long as my spirit is in this body.  I believe that's why it's so important to note that we'll all recieve "new" bodies . . .our spirit will return to transformed bodies that are also eternal . . .so that once again our soul can manifest the union between spirit and body . . .it's a mystery to be sure, but the patterns of this are through out all the old Testament. 

If you think about it . . .the day Eli died was the day Israel lost her heart.  Because that was the day they lost the ark and years later when they did get it back, there was no mention of the rod that budded or the jar of manna . . .all that was left in it was the law . . .who represented the law?  Moses because he was the tool God used to initiate it to his people.  And it's why there was a struggle between satan (adversary) and Michael (chief message bearer) over the body of Moses . . .satan=adversary=flesh . . .when we do fleshly things, there's a fleshly invigoration that takes place is there not?

Jeeze, I better quit . . .this is becoming another marathon.

Reply to WW earlier...

Quote from: micah7:9 on Today at 01:26:19 PM

    Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

Micah, not taking sides because I'm still not sure myself.
God created Adam from dust. Adam was nothing more that a dead lump of clay.
I don't consider that the lump clay was "dead" as you post. It was just the dust of the ground.

They God blew life into Adam. Adam became a living soul.  Yes.
Note: Became is added by the translators. Hebrew: man living soul. I'm looking into that summation.

So it's clear that the breath gives life to the otherwise dead body.
Breath gives live to the formed dust of the ground.
The soul was already alive before it entered the body.
How do you figure that? There is no person or soul at this time.
The dead body is dead.
Death as in dead had not yet entered into the scenerio yet. Any thought of death did not enter the equation until Gen. 2:17 And I reason man/adam had no idea what the heck it was.
The Bible is clear about that. It speaks about decay and totally returing to dust.
But you have already moved away from what our subject is.

So it's very clear the lump of clay needs the breath (of God) to be alive. Yes.

But does the breath need the body to stay alive? No.
And how do we die?
Man quits beathing.

(Psalms 104:29 [ACV])
Thou hide thy face, they are troubled. Thou take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Perhaps to literal but if God takes the breath, it's in His hands. Aka it returned to God? Yes, that is a truth.


(Isaiah 55:11 [ACV])
so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. And it shall prosper in the thing to which I sent it.

I can find no matching words but in a way words are also breath. Likely taking things a bit to far.
Yes, too far. But since you are taking things a bit to far
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; that settles that. I hope.

Back to Genesis.
(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I think we have a little formula here....

Dead dust + breath = living soul I see no death in the dust. Death was unheard of at this point, as far as the writer is concerned.

Living soul - breath (taken away by God) = Dead dust.  Living soul- breath= non existance

Living soul - dead dust = breath  I don't follow that one?

So: Dead dust = dead soul  ==> Soul is just another word for dust.....?
Negative, that is your assumption. Where did you get "dead dust?" No soul is not just a word for dust. Again, your assumption.

:dontknow:

What if I compare it with a car and driver?

Car = body
gasoline = breath
Driver = spirit

The car drives until it runs out of gas (no more breath).
The car rusts until nothing is left. The drive take the stairway to heaven.

The car is the body, good you got that part. the Gasoline and the driver are one and the same. The driver would not could not start to use the car without gasoline, the is the breath the breath is the spirit.



Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

This is where I believe in my opinion the entire misunderstanding begins. The "breath of life" of Genesis is taught to be the "spirit" of God, when in a truth that spirt is the igniter to the dust of the ground formed by the Lord God become a living soul. I contend that that "breath of life," is not the VERY Spirit of which God is, but it is the "thing or the first miracle?" which causes our natural breathing ablility on this earth.

Paul makes it very clear that to die means to leave the body and be with Christ.   To be away from the body means to be 'at home' with the Lord.   End of story.


21 For me, life finds all of its meaning in Christ. Death also has its benefits.

22 Suppose I go on living in my body. Then I will be able to carry on my work. It will bear a lot of fruit. But what should I choose? I don't know.

23 I can't decide between the two. I long to leave this world and be with Christ. That is better by far.

24 But it is more important for you that I stay alive.

25 I'm sure of that. So I know I will remain with you. And I will continue with all of you to help you grow and be joyful in what you have been taught. 26 I'm sure I will be with you again. Then your joy in Christ Jesus will be greater than ever because of me.

--Phil 1



8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Co 5)

That is YOUR end of YOUR story, And may I had that you are engaged with the winter STORY as well. Of course that is only my opinion, from what I have read in some posts.
Being solid in ones beliefs is a good thing, I admire it, but should there be flaws or errors in that belief, in my opinion, there is needs be room for at least reconsideration of what one does hold as a solid belief. :2c:

And has the scripture been found where man/adam was given a soul? I wait.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:37:17 AM
That is YOUR end of YOUR story, And may I had that you are engaged with the winter STORY as well. Of course that is only my opinion, from what I have read in some posts.

You don't believe the Bible?

Paul is writing after the cross.

And, after the resurrection of Christ.

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:39:44 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:37:17 AM
That is YOUR end of YOUR story, And may I had that you are engaged with the winter STORY as well. Of course that is only my opinion, from what I have read in some posts.

You don't believe the Bible?

Paul is writing after the cross.

And, after the resurrection of Christ.

Yes! I fervently believe the Bible and I am finding that to be a burden of great joy that I do.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:45:47 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:39:44 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:37:17 AM
That is YOUR end of YOUR story, And may I had that you are engaged with the winter STORY as well. Of course that is only my opinion, from what I have read in some posts.

You don't believe the Bible?

Paul is writing after the cross.

And, after the resurrection of Christ.

Yes! I fervently believe the Bible and I am finding that to be a burden of great joy that I do.

well, then, believe THIS

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Cor 5

Is there a resurrection of the body?

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Is there a resurrection of the body?

Yes, at the end of the age.  But, meanwhile, a lot of Christians have died in the last 2000 years.

They are with the Lord, in age abiding bodies prepared for them in heaven.

That's what the Bible says.

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:00:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Is there a resurrection of the body?

Yes, at the end of the age.  But, meanwhile, a lot of Christians have died in the last 2000 years.

They are with the Lord, in age abiding bodies prepared for them in heaven.

That's what the Bible says.

Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?

I must admit I surely find the tributary topics quite a challenging exercise.

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:52:09 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:45:47 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:39:44 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:37:17 AM
That is YOUR end of YOUR story, And may I had that you are engaged with the winter STORY as well. Of course that is only my opinion, from what I have read in some posts.

You don't believe the Bible?

Paul is writing after the cross.

And, after the resurrection of Christ.

Yes! I fervently believe the Bible and I am finding that to be a burden of great joy that I do.

well, then, believe THIS

6Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

8We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

2 Cor 5

I believe that. :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:04:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:00:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Is there a resurrection of the body?

Yes, at the end of the age.  But, meanwhile, a lot of Christians have died in the last 2000 years.

They are with the Lord, in age abiding bodies prepared for them in heaven.

That's what the Bible says.

Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?

I must admit I surely find the tributary topics quite a challenging exercise.

The resurrection of the body will signify our full adoption as sons of God.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:12:56 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:04:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:00:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Is there a resurrection of the body?

Yes, at the end of the age.  But, meanwhile, a lot of Christians have died in the last 2000 years.

They are with the Lord, in age abiding bodies prepared for them in heaven.

That's what the Bible says.

Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?

I must admit I surely find the tributary topics quite a challenging exercise.

The resurrection of the body will signify our full adoption as sons of God.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23

Again, "Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?"

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 01:42:56 AM
If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it."  Whose quote is this?

Mine.
I messed up with the quotes. I've corrected it in post #147

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 08:38:59 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 01:42:56 AM
If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it."  Whose quote is this?

Mine.
I messed up with the quotes. I've corrected it in post #147

Do you believe that God created a universe out of nothing and filled it with life?

By the way I responded to your post with the car-gasoline-driver. :bigGrin:

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 01:46:50 AM
Had to leave WW I did not ignore your post. As always you bring up great thoughts. I owl be baach!  :bigGrin:

Little correction to my own post.
(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

I wrote became is added by translators. That wasn't a totally wrong statement but now it seems it wasn't totally correct either.
Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image. (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)

When looking deeper into the "Mood" of the verse there are some things that aren't visible in most translations. A better translation:

(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

At the end of this post the definition/explanations of the Stem and Mood used in this post.

Forming: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Blowing: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Becoming: I think it's also ==> Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect

The whole verse seems to be uncompleted actions.
God keeps forming.
God keeps blowing in live/air.
And the lump of clay keeps becoming alive.

It can be reasoned for example it took God 2 hours build Adam so that's why the imperfect mood is used. An so it also took 2 hours for that limp of clay to become alive. Those two hours have passed long ago; so now it's a completed action. But that's, imo, not how the Bible works. It makes clear in other verses some actions are completed (Stem perfect)

So could the alternative reading be:
God is still creating.
God is still "trying" to get that lump of clay to be alive.
Man still isn't a living soul but something in between.

In other words the verse merely describes God starting an activity that ends when God becomes all in all.


And when men is disobedient the process in temporarily interrupted and everything gradually returns to the before Gen 2:7

(Genesis 2:17 [CLV])
Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

Yep you likely guessed it by now.... :winkgrin:
Eating and dying: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect


Enough blasphemy for one post  :blush:

---

Stem=Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the
"simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:
He sat,  he ate,  he went,  he said,  he rose,  he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

---

Mood=Imperfect

The imperfect expresses an action,  process or condition which is incomplete, 
and it has a wide range of meaning:

1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact",  the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?",  refers not only to the
present,  but assumes that the search has continued for some time.

Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion,  as to a
continued condition.

2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.

2a) In the present:

it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

2b) In the past:

"and so he did"       -  regularly,  year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke"            -repeatedly

3) The imperfect is used to express the "future",  referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:

3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:

Now "shalt thou    See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to    See what "should be done"

4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation,  and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.

of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say

5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose",  "result" and so forth as,  "in order that",  "lest"; e.g.

say thou art my sister,  "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation,  "lest it multiplies"

5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose",  or when it
is meant to be strongly marked,  then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.

raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"

"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 04:26:36 AM
God created Adam from dust. Adam was nothing more that a dead lump of clay.
I don't consider that the lump clay was "dead" as you post. It was just the dust of the ground.

God is the great potter that uses clay :winkgrin:
I think clay and dust are related and linked to the meaning of the word Adam. But I think it's not important for this discussion. Whenever I write clay just read it as dust.

QuoteSo it's clear that the breath gives life to the otherwise dead body.
Breath gives live to the formed dust of the ground.
The soul was already alive before it entered the body.
How do you figure that? There is no person or soul at this time.

There are verses that state that God has a soul.
How did I figure that? If you read my whole post you will notice I seem to contradict myself. You have to understand that most of what I wrote were no statements but conflicting thoughts I have on the subject. That said.
If we assume Fathers breath is the soul then obviously the soul was already alive because Father doesn't breath death.
Again just a thought. A thought I think is less likely that others. I'm just presenting bulding blocks for a discussion......

QuoteThe dead body is dead.
Death as in dead had not yet entered into the scenerio yet. Any thought of death did not enter the equation until Gen. 2:17 And I reason man/adam had no idea what the heck it was.

Death is the original state.
Darkness is the absense of light.
Death is the absense of life.
God=life=light.
So things were dead before God made them alive. The fact that Adam didn't understand that, doesn't make it less true.

QuoteSo it's very clear the lump of clay needs the breath (of God) to be alive. Yes.

But does the breath need the body to stay alive? No.
And how do we die?
Man quits beathing.

(Psalms 104:29 [ACV])
Thou hide thy face, they are troubled. Thou take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Perhaps to literal but if God takes the breath, it's in His hands. Aka it returned to God? Yes, that is a truth.

What is breath according to you?
a] Body of dust?
b] Spirit?
c] Soul?
d] Something else? Please define.


(Isaiah 55:11 [ACV])
so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. And it shall prosper in the thing to which I sent it.

QuoteI can find no matching words but in a way words are also breath. Likely taking things a bit to far.
Yes, too far. But since you are taking things a bit to far
Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; that settles that. I hope.

Actually it doesn't  :winkgrin:
The Word obviously is Jesus. Jesus was more than just  a sound/noise.
So a word isn't just soundwaves but a whole complex being.
Viewing it from that angle I just as wel can state God breathes out (blowing live into dust). God breaths in (removing the life from the dust)

QuoteBack to Genesis.
(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I think we have a little formula here....

Dead dust + breath = living soul I see no death in the dust. Death was unheard of at this point, as far as the writer is concerned.

I think the writer, HS, was/is smart enough to understand death before Adam understood it.

QuoteLiving soul - breath (taken away by God) = Dead dust.  Living soul- breath= non existance

Not true. The body returns to the dust. Or becomes dust again.
Michah, lets take a closer look at became a living soul.
If something becomes a living soul it means it was dead before.
God took dust and formed Adam. Nothing mentioned about life yet.
But when God blows into the nostrils of Adam the verse continues adding the soul became a living soul.
That would imply the body God formed was a dead soul.
Meaning body=soul. But that seems to be refuted by:

(Matthew 10:28 [CLV])
And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

Soul and body seem to be two different things.

QuoteLiving soul - dead dust = breath  I don't follow that one?

Breath is life.
Just look at the body as a jar filled with breath. We then have  a living jar.
Remove the jar and the only thing left is breath.

QuoteSo: Dead dust = dead soul  ==> Soul is just another word for dust.....?
Negative, that is your assumption. Where did you get "dead dust?" No soul is not just a word for dust. Again, your assumption.

You could be right, but it's also your assumption that my assumption is false.
I'm just trying to disect the verse and learn from it.

QuoteWhat if I compare it with a car and driver?

Car = body
gasoline = breath
Driver = spirit

The car drives until it runs out of gas (no more breath).
The car rusts until nothing is left. The driver takes the stairway to heaven.

The car is the body, good you got that part. the Gasoline and the driver are one and the same. The driver would not could not start to use the car without gasoline, the is the breath the breath is the spirit.

I don't understand that. First you say the gasoline and drive are the same, but right after that you speak about the driver and gasoline as being 2 different things. As for the read part I assume you mean gasoline is spirit or driver is spirit?

QuoteEcc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

This is where I believe in my opinion the entire misunderstanding begins. The "breath of life" of Genesis is taught to be the "spirit" of God, when in a truth that spirt is the igniter to the dust of the ground formed by the Lord God become a living soul.

So the spirit is the sparkplug of your car? God turns the ignition key. The sparkplug gives a breath of life. And then the enigine keeps running.

QuoteI contend that that "breath of life," is not the VERY Spirit of which God is, but it is the "thing or the first miracle?" which causes our natural breathing ablility on this earth

Animals are also alive. They, just like Adam, have breath in their nostrils.
(Genesis 7:22 [CLV])
Everyone which has the breath of the spirit of the living in his nostrils, of all that were in the drained area, dies.

So both adam and man are made from dust. Both have recieved the breath of life. But Adam has a spirit retuning to God. So that must mean it must be added during the early Genesis verses. Otherwise there isn't much difference between man and beast. OTOH some claim animals also goto heaven...
:dontknow:

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 01:01:28 AM

Quote from: wwWhere in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. [Gen 1]

God creates man in his own image.  God is spirit.  Man is spirit, also.

God is holy, infinite, pure, almighty, etc.
Mankind is .......
?

QuoteBut there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.[Job 32:8]

IN man is not the same as IS man.
I drive IN a car, but I'm not A car.

H7307 is translated into many different ways. I'll just post the first verses from Genesis to using H7307.

(Genesis 1:2 [KJV+])
And the earth was without form , and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep . And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters .

(Genesis 3:8 [KJV+])
And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day : and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden .

(Genesis 6:3 [KJV+])
And the LORD said , My spirit shall not always strive with man , for that he also is flesh : yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years .

(Genesis 6:17 [KJV+])
And, behold , I , even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth , to destroy all flesh , wherein is the breath of life , from under heaven ; and every thing that is in the earth shall die .

(Genesis 7:15 [KJV+])
And they went in unto Noah into the ark , two and two of all flesh , wherein is the breath of life .

(Genesis 7:22 [KJV+])
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life , of all that was in the dry land, died .

(Genesis 8:1 [KJV+])
And God remembered Noah , and every living thing , and all the cattle that was with him in the ark : and God made a wind to pass over the earth , and the waters asswaged ;

(Genesis 26:35 [KJV+])
Which were a grief of mind unto Isaac and to Rebekah .

(Genesis 41:8 [KJV+])
And it came to pass in the morning that his spirit was troubled ; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt , and all the wise men thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream ; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh .

(Genesis 41:38 [KJV+])
And Pharaoh said unto his servants , Can we find such a one as this is, a man in whom the Spirit of God is?

(Genesis 45:27 [KJV+])
And they told him all the words of Joseph , which he had said unto them: and when he saw the wagons which Joseph had sent to carry him, the spirit of Jacob their father revived :

---

H5315

(Genesis 1:20 [KJV+])
And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

(Genesis 1:21 [KJV+])
And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

(Genesis 1:24 [KJV+])
And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

(Genesis 1:30 [KJV+])
And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

(Genesis 2:7 [KJV+])
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

(Genesis 2:19 [KJV+])
And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

(Genesis 9:4 [KJV+])
But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.

(Genesis 9:5 [KJV+])
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.

(Genesis 9:10 [KJV+])
And with every living creature that is with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

(Genesis 9:12 [KJV+])
And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:

(Genesis 9:15 [KJV+])
And I will remember my covenant, which is between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh.

(Genesis 9:16 [KJV+])
And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is upon the earth.

(Genesis 12:5 [KJV+])
And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.

(Genesis 12:13 [KJV+])
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; and my soul shall live because of thee.

(Genesis 14:21 [KJV+])
And the king of Sodom said unto Abram, Give me the persons, and take the goods to thyself.

(Genesis 17:14 [KJV+])
And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

(Genesis 19:17 [KJV+])
And it came to pass, when they had brought them forth abroad, that he said, Escape for thy life; look not behind thee, neither stay thou in all the plain; escape to the mountain, lest thou be consumed.

(Genesis 19:19 [KJV+])
Behold now, thy servant hath found grace in thy sight, and thou hast magnified thy mercy, which thou hast shewed unto me in saving my life; and I cannot escape to the mountain, lest some evil take me, and I die:

(Genesis 19:20 [KJV+])
Behold now, this city is near to flee unto, and it is a little one: Oh, let me escape thither, (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.

(Genesis 23:8 [KJV+])
And he communed with them, saying, If it be your mind that I should bury my dead out of my sight; hear me, and intreat for me to Ephron the son of Zohar,

(Genesis 27:4 [KJV+])
And make me savoury meat, such as I love, and bring it to me, that I may eat; that my soul may bless thee before I die.

(Genesis 27:19 [KJV+])
And Jacob said unto his father, I am Esau thy firstborn; I have done according as thou badest me: arise, I pray thee, sit and eat of my venison, that thy soul may bless me.

(Genesis 27:25 [KJV+])
And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine, and he drank.

(Genesis 27:31 [KJV+])
And he also had made savoury meat, and brought it unto his father, and said unto his father, Let my father arise, and eat of his son's venison, that thy soul may bless me.

(Genesis 32:30 [KJV+])
And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

(Genesis 34:3 [KJV+])
And his soul clave unto Dinah the daughter of Jacob, and he loved the damsel, and spake kindly unto the damsel.

(Genesis 34:8 [KJV+])
And Hamor communed with them, saying, The soul of my son Shechem longeth for your daughter: I pray you give her him to wife.

(Genesis 35:18 [KJV+])
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

(Genesis 36:6 [KJV+])
And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.

(Genesis 37:21 [KJV+])
And Reuben heard it, and he delivered him out of their hands; and said, Let us not kill him.

ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 02:30:22 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 01:01:28 AM

Quote from: wwWhere in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. [Gen 1]

God creates man in his own image.  God is spirit.  Man is spirit, also.

God is holy, infinite, pure, almighty, etc.
Mankind is .......
?

QuoteBut there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.[Job 32:8]

IN man is not the same as IS man.
I drive IN a car, but I'm not A car.

Adam is God's spirit lowered into flesh and blood...a type of the one to come.

Quote from: www"God creates man in his own image.  God is spirit.  Man is spirit, also."

God is holy, infinite, pure, almighty, etc.
Mankind is .......
?

Think Jesus who had the Spirit without measure.  He was/is holy, infinite, pure, almighty, etc.

awake o SLEEPER, arise from the dead....



just who is this sleeper?  the soul????  could it be a dead soul.....that is to arise????     


.....and Christ will give you LIGHT


who is he giving LIGHT too???

a dead one.....could that be a soul?????



he is not giving light to a body is he?

he is not giving light to spirit is he???


the only thing left to "awaken" from death, is the soul.     



seems strange to me, that a soul can awaken....only to die again.     death to life,  then back to death so life again can happen....i think not.



all we see in the physical.....in my opinion supports the rising of the "soul" between the ears.   my 1 cent

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.


who is this "we" that has passed FROM death to LIFE???


is it our "body"?

is it just the breath?


or could it be the soul, the "who we are" between our ears.       whoever/whatever IT is, it is ALIVE.   ......only to die again......I don't think so.   


ALIVE is ALIVE, raised up from "sleep".   

In agreement with livingwater, Jesus says, Let the dead bury their dead, [Lk 9:60]

but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.

One day, YOU will awaken and be born from above. Then the entire drama of scripture will unfold within you, revealing your true identity.

noONE comes to the father except by me.


who is this ONE??    spirit, clay/dust??  or the being/soul???   

and if this ONE is dragged to the father, and becomes a NEW man,  is that NEW/awake ONE to die again; even after having been given LIFE??  i think not

28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

who is this ONE that returns to the father?     is it just the breath that returns to the Lord? 

and if Jesus is ONE with the Father.....who is "that ONE"?   

and if "that" has to die or become nothing as the body dies and the spirit returns, then "that which is ONE with, the father must die too.   then this ONE must die;  so the father must die.      i dont' think so



to me, these scriptures speak of a "something" that was prior with the Father, and returns there.    and it is interessting that we are to REturn to the father.   again; for me...the RE words have something to be pondered

imo, just like Jesus

WE come from the father, and return to the father.  and the steps between are what we call "death to life".    REturning to ONENESS with HIM.   but having forgotten (purposely) in order to awaken o sleeper, rise from the dead.   carnal mind (dead soul) to mind of Christ (NEW man/soul/Identity; one that KNOWS he is ONE with the FATHER).

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:4

 :cloud9: Just a couple of points to  :bdh: lol.....

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that invisible beings that want to destroy us, exist. Granted, my belief is slanted by experiences and you can never argue with a man with an experience, but the Word is pretty plain on this as well. I also believe the enemy is between our ears, but it is used by the enemy without.

Ever seen two 10 year old girls with generational voodoo demons levitate off the floor a foot? I have.

Ever see a 25 year old man with his previously flat stomach swelled up like he literally swallowed a *moving* basketball, while slain in the Spirit and unaware of it, also from a generational voodoo spirit (his grandfather was a voodoo high priest in Haiti)? I have.

Ever been asleep in a room when a demon was in the process of possessing someone? I have. And countless other stories, most I've forgotten by choice. Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 09:43:47 AM

Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image. (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)

The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 09:43:47 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 01:46:50 AM
Had to leave WW I did not ignore your post. As always you bring up great thoughts. I owl be baach!  :bigGrin:

Little correction to my own post.
(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

I wrote became is added by translators. That wasn't a totally wrong statement but now it seems it wasn't totally correct either.
Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image. (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)

When looking deeper into the "Mood" of the verse there are some things that aren't visible in most translations. A better translation:

(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

At the end of this post the definition/explanations of the Stem and Mood used in this post.

Forming: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Blowing: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect
Becoming: I think it's also ==> Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect

The whole verse seems to be uncompleted actions.
God keeps forming.
God keeps blowing in live/air.
And the lump of clay keeps becoming alive.

It can be reasoned for example it took God 2 hours build Adam so that's why the imperfect mood is used. An so it also took 2 hours for that limp of clay to become alive. Those two hours have passed long ago; so now it's a completed action. But that's, imo, not how the Bible works. It makes clear in other verses some actions are completed (Stem perfect)

So could the alternative reading be:
God is still creating.
God is still "trying" to get that lump of clay to be alive.
Man still isn't a living soul but something in between.

In other words the verse merely describes God starting an activity that ends when God becomes all in all.


And when men is disobedient the process in temporarily interrupted and everything gradually returns to the before Gen 2:7

(Genesis 2:17 [CLV])
Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.

Yep you likely guessed it by now.... :winkgrin:
Eating and dying: Stem=Qal, Mood=Imperfect


Enough blasphemy for one post  :blush:

---

Stem=Qal
Qal is the most frequently used verb pattern. It expresses the
"simple" or "causal" action of the root in the active voice.

Examples:
He sat,  he ate,  he went,  he said,  he rose,  he bought

This form accounts for 66.7% of the verbs parsed.

---

Mood=Imperfect

The imperfect expresses an action,  process or condition which is incomplete, 
and it has a wide range of meaning:

1a) It is used to describe a single (as opposed to a repeated) action
in the past; it differs from the perfect in being more vivid and
pictorial. The perfect expresses the "fact",  the imperfect adds
colour and movement by suggesting the "process" preliminary to its
completion.
He put forth his hand to the door
it came to a halt
I began to hear

1b) A phrase such as "What seekest thou?",  refers not only to the
present,  but assumes that the search has continued for some time.

Why do you weep?
Why refuse to eat?
Why are you distressed?

These relate not so much as to one occasion,  as to a
continued condition.

2) The kind of progression or imperfection and unfinished condition
of the action may consist in its frequent repetition.

2a) In the present:

it is "said" today
a wise son "maketh glad" his father

2b) In the past:

"and so he did"       -  regularly,  year by year
a mist "used to go up"
the fish which "we used to eat"
the manna "came down" -regularly
He "spoke"            -repeatedly

3) The imperfect is used to express the "future",  referring not only
to an action which is about to be accomplished but one which has
not yet begun:

3a) This may be a future from the point of view of the real
present; as:

Now "shalt thou    See what I will do"
"We will burn" thy house

3b) It may be a future from any other point of view assumed; as:
He took his son that "was to reign"
she stayed to    See what "should be done"

4) The usage of 3b may be taken as the transitive to a common use of
the imperfect in which it serves for an expression of those shades
of relation among acts and thoughts for which English prefers the
conditional moods. Such actions are strictly "future" in reference
to the assumed point of relation,  and the simple imperfect
sufficiently expresses them; e.g.

of every tree thou "mayest eat"
"could we know"
He "would" say

5a) The imperfect follows particles expressing "transition",
"purpose",  "result" and so forth as,  "in order that",  "lest"; e.g.

say thou art my sister,  "that it may be well with thee"
let us deal wisely with the nation,  "lest it multiplies"

5b) When however there is a strong feeling of "purpose",  or when it
is meant to be strongly marked,  then of course the moods are
employed; e.g.

raise me up "that I may requite them"
who will entice Ahab "that he may go up"
what shall we do "that the sea may be calm"

The moods are also employed to express that class of
future actions which we express in the "optative"

"may I die"
"may" the LORD "establish" his word
"may" the child "live".

Good insights.  Got this back from a friend in Jerusalem...> " And man ------------a living soul..."? Is the word "became" not relevant
> to the meaning of this sentence?  Thank you again. Dave

We have an idiom here wayhi X le-Y, which is X became Y in Biblical Hebrew.


shabbat shalom,

It could be read:

and man — AM — a living soul.

Quoteand becoming is the human a living soul.

We don't talk or write like this in English.

Therefore, it makes no sense.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 09, 2011, 05:35:41 PM


It could be read:

and man — AM — a living soul.

I would think it could, but it wouldn't it have to be- I AM- a living soul? Because the "become" is the same as I AM not just AM?

I can understand "And man ------------a living soul." Knowing what WW has said that it is still in a working process, X becoming Y.

I am feeling more like an archeologist as the Lord keeps me digging into the dust-sand-ground of that wonderful book of the beginning. I am learning with each new find and from all the brethren who are digging as well. Some times old pieces don't fit with the new pieces.  :cloud9:

 
New International Version (©1984)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

World English Bible
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

 :cloud9: Ever wonder what God has hidden in plain sight about it?

Genesis 2:23 KJV
And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


Interesting that the word for BONE here runs into a meaning of "SELF, SUBSTANCE, ESSENCE"; in other words, what makes us, us = the soul. It comes from a root word that also means, "TO SHUT THE EYES".

When someone shuts their eyes, this is an expression for sleep/death. God shut Adam's eyes, but you cannot find where He ever woke him up. This is because he will stay asleep until the Spirit of Christ wakes him up, and He fulfills in the fullness by CLOTHING HIM WITH HIMSELF = "celestial" flesh/glorified body.

The fact that He had a bone to take out of him, means He had one put in him in the first place. The soul is as those bones, the stony heart of man that must become as a covering heart of flesh (the tablets of the law were COVERED OVER, not replaced).

Even more interesting is the fact that FLESH here runs into a root word meaning of, "TO PREACH, TO GLADDEN WITH GOOD NEWS, TO ANNOUNCE SALVATION AS GOOD NEWS". This IS Christ, the covering heart of flesh. More later....Blessings....

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:30:27 PM
 
New International Version (©1984)
the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground. He breathed the breath of life into the man's nostrils, and the man became a living person.

English Standard Version (©2001)
then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Then the LORD God formed the man from the dust of the earth and blew the breath of life into his nostrils. The man became a living being.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American King James Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

American Standard Version
And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord God formed man of the slime of the earth: and breathed into his face the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Darby Bible Translation
And Jehovah Elohim formed Man, dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and Man became a living soul.

English Revised Version
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Webster's Bible Translation
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

World English Bible
Yahweh God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah God formeth the man -- dust from the ground, and breatheth into his nostrils breath of life, and the man becometh a living creature.

Purpose?

And the LORD God formed the man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils [the breath of life] nashamah chay,
and the man

"became"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.


a living soul.


Job 32:8
But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.


"inspiration" [of the Almighty]

H5397
נשׁמה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
From H5395; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.



The neshamah of the Almighty gives men understanding.

The LORD God breathed into [Adam's] nostrils neshamah chay, the breath of life.---which is spirit, divine intellect, soul, inspiration of life,  and understanding, a BIG package.


Search the BIble for other instances of God breathing n'shamah chay into man's nostrils.

QuotePurpose?

To show that all these translators say 'the man became'...

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 09, 2011, 05:25:12 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 09:43:47 AM

Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)
Larger image. (http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9702/gen27.gif)

The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

It seen iei means becoming. (almost) all translations use became/becoming or similar. I guess that's based on something. Somehow the word isn't linked to the Strong index. I checked some Hebrew versions and they have that word. H1961
The Hebrew word is used 782 times in the OT as mood=imperfect
Actually it's used far more often but then it's blended into another word.
For example become.a.king.  Same word with some extra letters added.

---

ueie = haya

491 הָיָה (hāyâ) to be, become, exist, happen.
This verb appears 3,540 times in Biblical Hebrew, and all of these are in the Qal stem except for twenty-one uses of the Niphal. The verb is related to another Hebrew word meaning "to become," hăwâ (only five times: Gen 27:29; Isa 16:4; Eccl 2:22; 11:3; Neh 6:6), and the same verb in Biblical Aramaic, hăwâ (71 times). In Akkadian its phonetic equivalent, ewû, means "to turn oneself into, to become like." To express being or existence Akkadian uses not ewû but bashû (much like Ugaritic and Phoenician kûn).
Very seldom in the ot is hāyâ used to denote either simple existence or the identification of a thing or person. This can be illustrated by a quick glance at almost any page of the KJV on which one will find numerous examples of words such as "is, are, was, were," in italics, indicating that these are additions by the translators for the sake of smoothness, but not in the Hebrew itself. In such cases the Hebrew employs what is known grammatically as a nominal sentence, which we may define most simply as a sentence lacking a verb or a copula, for example: I (am) the Lord your God; the Lord (is) a sun and shield; the land (is) good; and in the nt, blessed (are) the poor. This almost total lack of hāyâ as a copula or existential particle has led some to use this phenomenon as confirming evidence that "static" thought was alien to the Hebrews, the latter thinking only in "dynamic" categories (see Boman in the bibliography below).
An alternative way in Hebrew to express existence besides the nominal sentence is by the particles yēsh (positive) and 'ayin (negative), really another type of nominal sentence "perhaps 'there are' fifty righteous in the city"; " 'there is' no God." Both of these words are more substantival in nature than they are verbal, and in function they resemble the French il y a and the German es gibt.
There are instances, however, where hāyâ is used with a predicate adjective: (a) in the description of a past situation which no longer exists, "The earth was (hayĕtâ) formless and void" (Gen 1:2); (b) in historical narration, "The serpent was (hāyâ) more subtil than any beast of the field" (Gen 3: 1); (c) in the expression of a gnomic truth, "It is not good that man should be (hĕyôt) alone" (Gen 2:18). Notice the juxtaposition of the verbal sentence, with hāyâ and a nominal sentence without it: "You shall be (tihyû) holy for I (am) holy (qādôsh 'ănı̂, Lev 19:2). Boman would account for the absence of a copula in the latter part of this phrase by stating that the predicate (holy) is inherent in the subject (God) and hence the copula is unnecessary. He would also add that the first "be" really means "become." To jump from this observation, however, to the conclusion that the basic meaning of "to be" in the Bible is "to become" seems to be unwarranted.
Of special import is the use of the verb hāyâ in covenant formulae: I will be your God and you will be my people (Jer 7:23; 11:4; 24:7; 31:33, etc.), and in the context of God's promises of blessings and judgements: and I will make of you a great nation ... and you shall be a blessing (Gen 12:2). A frequent, although perhaps misleading, translation of hāyâ is, as we have noted above, "to come." This can be seen in connection with God's spirit "coming" upon an individual (Jud 11:29; I Sam 19:20), and in those places where God's word "came" to someone (Gen 15:1; I Sam 15:10; II Sam 7:4; Jer 36:1).
A final and brief word may be said about the meaning and interpretation of Jehovah/Yahweh. It seems beyond doubt that the name contains the verb hāyâ "to be" (but also see article YHWH). The question is whether or not it is the verb "to be" in the Qal, "He is," or the Hiphil, "He causes to be," a view championed by W. F. Albright. The strongest objection to this latter interpretation is that it necessitates a correction in the reading of the key text in Ex 3:14: "I am that I am." Most likely the name should be translated something like "I am he who is," or "I am he who exists" as reflected by the LXX's ego eimi ho ōn. The echo of this is found surely in the nt, Rev 1:8. More than anything perhaps, the "is-ness" of God is expressive both of his presence and his existence. Neither concept can be said to be more important than the other.
Bibliography: Barr, James, The Semantics of Biblical Language, Oxford University Press, 1961, esp. pp. 58–72, in opposition to Boman's emphasis on the "dynamic" versus "existential" character of hāyâ. Boman, T., Hebrew Thought Compared With Greek, trans. J. L. Moreau, London: SCM, 1960, esp. pp. 38–49. DeVaux R., "The Revelation of the Divine Name YHWH," in Proclamation and Presence, eds. J. I. Durham and J. R. Porter, London: SCM, 1970, pp. 48–75, with citation of the appropriate bibliography of studies on the meaning of the Tetragrammaton. Preuss, H. D., "Ich will mit dir sein," ZAW 80:139–73. Schild, E., "On Exodus iii 14: 'I am that I am'," VT 4:296–302. THAT, I, pp. 477–85.

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:49:11 PM

QuotePurpose?

To show that all these translators say 'the man became'...

True, but that only means they all agree. The Hebrew really translates that is a processing that "may' be still be on going.
"became" ..... cause, come (to pass), continue, ...cant discard the thought.


Job 32:8   But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.
Psa 18:28  For Thou--Thou lightest my lamp, Jehovah my God enlighteneth my darkness.


H5397  a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.
neshâmâh
BDB Definition:
1) breath, spirit
1a) breath (of God)
1b) breath (of man)
1c) every breathing thing
1d) spirit (of man)

Quote from: Beloved Servant on Today at 09:25:12 AM

    Quote from: WhiteWings on Today at 01:43:47 AM


        Was correct in stating became can't be found (by me) in the root words used by Strong linked to KJV. In ISA2 I found:

        Larger image.


    The word "became" can not be found in Genesis 2:7
    I'm still curious to find the meaning of the Hebrew word used, shown above, "iei."

It seen iei means becoming. (almost) all translations use became/becoming or similar. I guess that's based on something. Somehow the word isn't linked to the Strong index. I checked some Hebrew versions and they have that word. H1961
The Hebrew word is used 782 times in the OT as mood=imperfect
Actually it's used far more often but then it's blended into another word.
For example become.a.king.  Same word with some extra letters added.

Good info.

"There are verses that state that God has a soul." WW
I thought I had come across that verse, cannot re find it?

Also, am I in error to presume that the first time a word in the Bible is a type of defining of that word? And if that is true then the word "soul" the first time it is used it defines a soul as "living." ?

Thank you WW!

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 05:28:34 PMGot this back from a friend in Jerusalem...> " And man ------------a living soul..."? Is the word "became" not relevant
> to the meaning of this sentence?  Thank you again. Dave

We have an idiom here wayhi X le-Y, which is X became Y in Biblical Hebrew.

I'm already convinced something like becomes/became/is becoming/was becoming/did become/etc is really present in the Hebrew. The translations I've see all use one of those variations.
I would like to know (from your friend): Is it  a completed action like:

(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Or a uncompleted action like: (Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming  is the human a living soul.

---

Maybe I'm complicating thing to much but I just want to know because we (TM members) keep discussing the same thing over and over. That leads nowhere without added info....

(Genesis 1:3 [CLV])
And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.

EXACTLY the same word and mood as used in "became a living soul"
And again we see "becoming light" as one word but a you likely have guessed by now.... it's stil becoming light.....

Adam — haya

God — I AM that I AM

Could we suppose that importantly Adam lacks "THAT?"

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 09, 2011, 07:20:05 PM

Thank you WW!

At your service David :winkgrin:

http://www.scripture4all.org/
Free but highly recommended. The program has more info than the also free .pdf version

Stated another way:
Adam, suddenly, exists but not self-existent.

And God described as an oxymoron — static, yet everlasting!

Quote from: Beloved Servant on December 09, 2011, 07:23:17 PM

Adam — haya

God — I AM that I AM

Could we suppose that importantly Adam lacks "THAT?"

I believe we can, in my opinion. And I might add that I find great that WW' " Viewing it from that angle I just as well can state God breathes out(blowing live into dust). God breaths in(removing life from the dust). Some thing to give thought to.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:19:42 PM"There are verses that state that God has a soul." WW
I thought I had come across that verse, cannot re find it?

http://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

I must add it needs further study because for example some translations use spirit instead of soul.
http://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

QuoteAlso, am I in error to presume that the first time a word in the Bible is a type of defining of that word?

I've read that statement before (by scholars).
My view. Nonsense. :winkgrin:
Jesus told Nicodemus he has to be reborn. Birth is strongly associated with mother/womb. So although a bit impossible, Nicodemus understood he had to crawl back into his mothers womb. Is that the correct definition of reborn? For Nicodemus born again that was the first definition. In this case Jesus immediately told him his understanding was wrong. Should Nicodemus ignore Jesus because he (Nicodemus) already had a definition. Or should he do some  :BangHead: and then consider the extra information Jesus gave him?

But imo that's not always how it works.

Sometimes the Bible gives an entirely correct statement but the reader is to stupid to understand. Perhaps a 1000 verses further the reader finds an explanation that show his understanding was wrong. Just stick with the first impression and ignore all other relevant info?

QuoteAnd if that is true then the word "soul" the first time it is used it defines a soul as "living." ?

As you know I understand the soul is dead by default. The whole deal with that verse isn't that God can make some dead clay puppets. The key is that after the handiwork the breath was ADDED and then it became/is becoming/etc a living soul.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:38:53 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:12:56 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:04:06 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 07:00:30 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 06:57:17 AM
Is there a resurrection of the body?

Yes, at the end of the age.  But, meanwhile, a lot of Christians have died in the last 2000 years.

They are with the Lord, in age abiding bodies prepared for them in heaven.

That's what the Bible says.

Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?

I must admit I surely find the tributary topics quite a challenging exercise.

The resurrection of the body will signify our full adoption as sons of God.

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
Rom 8:23

Again, "Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?"

(Revelation 20:13 [EBR])
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and, death and hades, gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, each one, according to their works.

(Matthew 27:52 [EBR])
and, the tombs, were opened and, many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep, arose,––


I think it's fair to assume there are bodies in the grave. (of course many have decayed into nothing/dust)

Also for you to consider Micah?
Where was the body of Jesus when the women found an empty grave?
Was is stolen? Did the Romans for example burned it? Or was Jesus using it to walk around?

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 06:00:48 PM

Quoteand becoming is the human a living soul.

We don't talk or write like this in English.

Therefore, it makes no sense.

It it is quite close how the Hebrew reads.
Therefore it makes a lot of sense to translate it that way.
That way the English reader can study thing for her/himself.
If it's translated to perfect English, then the translator forces his view upon you.
So like it that way. I don't.

Perhaps a translation you like  :laughing7:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KEMAWXR5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Major biblical stories are recast as mini-blockbusters; individual psalms are rewritten as song lyrics; the letters of Paul become emails to the fledgling "Jesus Liberation Movement" (aka the church)

Genesis 1:1-3
First off, nothing. No light, no time, no substance, no matter. Second off, God starts it all up and WHAP! Stuff everywhere! The cosmos in chaos: no shape, no form, no function– just darkness ... total. And floating above it all, God's Holy Spirit, ready to play. Day one: Then God's voice booms out, 'Lights!' and, from nowhere, light floods the skies and 'night' is swept off the scene.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 07:57:28 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 07:19:42 PM"There are verses that state that God has a soul." WW
I thought I had come across that verse, cannot re find it?

http://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

I must add it need further study because for example some translations use spirit instead of soul.
http://www.learnthebible.org/does-god-have-a-soul.html

QuoteAlso, am I in error to presume that the first time a word in the Bible is a type of defining of that word?

I've read that statement before (by scholars).
My view. Nonsense. :winkgrin:
Jesus told Nicodemus he has to be reborn. Birth is strongly assosiated with mother/womb. So although a bit impossible, Nicodemus understood he had to crawl back into his mothers womb. Is that the correct defenition of reborn? For Nicodemus born again that was the forst defenition. In this case Jesus immediately told him his understanding was wrong. Should Nicodemus ignore Jesus because he (Nicodemus) already had a defenition. Or should he do some  :BangHead: and then consider the extra information Jesus gave him?

But imo that's not always how it works.

Sometimes the Bible gives an entirely correct statement but the reader is to stupid to understand. Pehaps a 1000 verses further the reader finds an explanation that show his understanding was wrong. Just stick with the forst impression and ignore all other relevant info?

QuoteAnd if that is true then the word "soul" the first time it is used it defines a soul as "living." ?

As you know I understand the soul is dead by default. The whole deal with that verse isn't that God can make some dead clay puppets. The key is that afer the handywork the breath was ADDED and then it became/is becoming/etc a living soul.

"
I must add it need further study because for example some translations use spirit instead of soul."
Some translation perhaps I would say a small amount, and if they do they are just confusing the matter further. IMO
Jesus told Nicodemus one must be born of the spirit, I suggest here the word spirit was a truth.

I will stand with the reasoning that when a word is used the first time it is defining. Man's logic and begin the wheel of assumptions, as he will. MO

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Because Adam had to keep the west side of the garden (Temple mount) and Eve the east side (mt Olives). The gate of Eden was on the east side so when the snake walked in he met Eve first.....

    Again, "Can you show me where there is a resurrection of the body?"

(Revelation 20:13 [EBR])
And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and, death and hades, gave up the dead that were in them; and they were judged, each one, according to their works.

(Matthew 27:52 [EBR])
and, the tombs, were opened and, many bodies of the holy ones who had fallen asleep, arose,––


I think it's fair to assume there are bodies in the grave. (of course many have decayed into nothing/dust)

My point is that there is no resurrection of the body, it is the DEAD that are resurrected.
1Co_15:13  But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
Php_3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead
1Pe_1:3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Rev_20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Also for you to consider Micah?
Where was the body of Jesus when the women found an empty grave?
This is where a whole new thread may be needed, for in my opinion this is where we are speaking of Spirit not spirit.
Joh 14:2  ................ I go on to prepare a place for you;

Was is stolen?     NO.
Did the Romans for example burned it?   Nope.

Or was Jesus using it to walk around?   He did, for awhile.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 08:25:17 PMI will stand with the reasoning that when a word is used the first time it is defining. Man's logic and begin the wheel of assumptions, as he will. MO

Ok, but the whole point is that the first definition is also "Man's logic and begin the wheel of assumptions, as he will."

If the Bible is perfect it means that ALL definitions are perfect. Imo that mean the definitions in Genesis, Job, Luke and Revelation are equally good.
So yes you are right the fist definition is correct.

I see it as school.
The teacher explains a new concept. He defines the concept. A little while later he gives some extra explanations. The pupil might understand things differently then.
Did the teacher change his first definition? Nope, the student didn't understand.
That's how I study. I go back and forth in my books.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 08:37:44 PMAlso for you to consider Micah?
Where was the body of Jesus when the women found an empty grave?
This is where a whole new thread may be needed, for in my opinion this is where we are speaking of Spirit not spirit.

Was is stolen?     NO.
Did the Romans for example burned it?   Nope.

Or was Jesus using it to walk around?   He did, for awhile.

So doesn't that mean Jesus was walking around in His own resurrected body?
I think the answer is yes because the body was not in the grave. Not stolen. Not destroyed. The body Jesus had looked like His old body. It even had holes in it from the nails and the spear.
:dontknow:

Quote from: MicahJoh 14:2  ................ I go on to prepare a place for you;

In modern English that would be a pickup line :laughing7:
Seriously, if a man and women were betrothed that was exactly what the groom did. He started a to build a bridal suite/room for his bride to be.
So, imo, it isn't a reference to new bodies(rooms). It's a reference to marriage. It means they were already betrothed.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 08:44:15 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 08:37:44 PMAlso for you to consider Micah?
Where was the body of Jesus when the women found an empty grave?
This is where a whole new thread may be needed, for in my opinion this is where we are speaking of Spirit not spirit.

Was is stolen?     NO.
Did the Romans for example burned it?   Nope.

Or was Jesus using it to walk around?   He did, for awhile.

So doesn't that mean Jesus was walking around in His own resurrected body?
I think the answer is yes because the body was not in the grave. Not stolen. Not destroyed. The body Jesus had looked like His old body. It even had holes in it from the nails and the spear.
:dontknow:

"So doesn't that mean Jesus was walking around in His own resurrected body?"  Yes, this was the "body" that men knew, but yet to mention Luk 24:30  And it came to pass, in his reclining (at meat) with them, having taken the bread, he blessed, and having broken, he was giving to them,
Luk 24:31  and their eyes were opened, and they recognized him, and he became unseen by them.
This is the body men saw in and when He revealed it to men.

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 08:48:33 PM

Quote from: MicahJoh 14:2  ................ I go on to prepare a place for you;

In modern English that would be a pickup line :laughing7:
Seriously, if a man and women were betrothed that was exactly what the groom did. He started a to build a bridal suite/room for his bride to be.
So, imo, it isn't a reference to new bodies(rooms). It's a reference to marriage. It means they were already betrothed.

I believe the "place" is Spirit.

Anyway it seems this thread has many avenues and can go to many more.:(    I'm going back to study for a time. Adios

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 08:26:25 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Because Adam had to keep the west side of the garden (Temple mount) and Eve the east side (mt Olives). The gate of Eden was on the east side so when the snake walked in he met Eve first.....

There's no reason to assume that Adam was given the same gifts of the Spirit as Eve.  We would say today that one who is elect cannot be deceived.  Adam was not deceived, therefore was he the first elect?   Was it for that reason he received n'shamah chay, the breath [Spirit]  of life?  There is a Spirit of life, remember?

Where else do we see n'shamah chay in the Bible?  Anywhere?

But God did not breath n'shamah chay into the nostrils of Eve.

Quote from: micah7:9 on December 09, 2011, 09:05:09 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on December 09, 2011, 08:48:33 PM

Quote from: MicahJoh 14:2  ................ I go on to prepare a place for you;

In modern English that would be a pickup line :laughing7:
Seriously, if a man and women were betrothed that was exactly what the groom did. He started a to build a bridal suite/room for his bride to be.
So, imo, it isn't a reference to new bodies(rooms). It's a reference to marriage. It means they were already betrothed.

I believe the "place" is Spirit.

Anyway it seems this thread has many avenues and can go to many more.:(    I'm going back to study for a time. Adios

In my Father's house are many mansions.

mone

a staying , that is a residence, an abode, a mansion.

But, we know that now our residence is in tents.

"I would like to know (from your friend): Is it  a completed action like:

(Genesis 2:7 [ACV])
And LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Or a uncompleted action like: (Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul."

I find this a very exciting question. I, personally believe that Gen.1 is a work or that, that what Elohiem is doing, not done, but doing. So this wonder yo have (which I have sent off to Jerusalem) as to whether this "I AM and Become" is perhaps still going on. I have for 40 years followed great men of insight and I know of God..if I may name a few, Bill Britton, Geo. Hawkins, Geo. Warnock, Preston Eby, Ray Prinzing, Irene Lindsay, they all are brick layers of the Latter Rain, but as much as I love each one of those vessels that the Lord anointed to bring forth what we, the saints, have today; they as well a I(we) know that had but a part of that mystery that we see though a glass darkly. Out of that army of treasure seekers only Bro. Eby stands forthwith in identity to us, the rest have past on, they await the DAY in its completion.

Micah,

Peter Demetris of Light of the City Ministry
is ALIVE and one of us.

AS IS,

Joyce Morris,
Lord of Life Ministry
in Virginia.



WE ARE NOT ALONE!

Beloved, can you  explain you post?

There is a lively ministry.
Joyce and Peter, you can trust.

http://www.lightofthecity.org/
http://lordoflifeministries.com/

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Perhaps Eve did not posses a spirit, because it was in Adam. Therefore being only of soul, did not have the proper instructions and guidance from Adam.

But this opens up all kinds of other problems

Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 06:31:22 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Perhaps Eve did not posses a spirit, because it was in Adam. Therefore being only of soul, did not have the proper instructions and guidance from Adam.

But this opens up all kinds of other problems

If we think of Adam as Christ, and Eve as the church taken out of his side [and later rejoined to him as a new and living way to the most Holy Place], can we see parallels?   Adam had the Spirit but was not a life giving Spirit, therefore he could not impart the Spirit to Eve.  Eve had tried to memorize something that had no meaning to her [the Law] so she kept getting it wrong. [but that tree don't eat of it or even touch it] and was easily fooled.

What problems?

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2011, 07:14:37 PM

Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 06:31:22 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Perhaps Eve did not posses a spirit, because it was in Adam. Therefore being only of soul, did not have the proper instructions and guidance from Adam.

But this opens up all kinds of other problems

If we think of Adam as Christ, and Eve as the church taken out of his side [and later rejoined to him as a new and living way to the most Holy Place], can we see parallels?   Adam had the Spirit but was not a life giving Spirit, therefore he could not impart the Spirit to Eve.  Eve had tried to memorize something that had no meaning to her [the Law] so she kept getting it wrong. [but that tree don't eat of it or even touch it] and was easily fooled.

What problems?

Eve would be subhuman without a spirit and the scriptures declare God as the father of all spirits.
Maybe it can be taken as an analogy, but that's as far as it goes.

Quote from: thinktank on December 11, 2011, 12:04:22 AM

Quote from: Molly on December 10, 2011, 07:14:37 PM

Quote from: thinktank on December 10, 2011, 06:31:22 PM

Quote from: Molly on December 09, 2011, 02:46:27 PM
ww why is Adam not deceived by the nachash but Eve is deceived?

Perhaps Eve did not posses a spirit, because it was in Adam. Therefore being only of soul, did not have the proper instructions and guidance from Adam.

But this opens up all kinds of other problems

If we think of Adam as Christ, and Eve as the church taken out of his side [and later rejoined to him as a new and living way to the most Holy Place], can we see parallels?   Adam had the Spirit but was not a life giving Spirit, therefore he could not impart the Spirit to Eve.  Eve had tried to memorize something that had no meaning to her [the Law] so she kept getting it wrong. [but that tree don't eat of it or even touch it] and was easily fooled.

What problems?

Eve would be subhuman without a spirit and the scriptures declare God as the father of all spirits.
Maybe it can be taken as an analogy, but that's as far as it goes.

Oh.  I see what you're saying.  I was thinking of the Holy Soirit.  I believe God gave Adam the Holy Spirit when he breathed into his nostrils the n'shamah chay. [That's why he couldn't be deceived and why the Serpent didn't even bother to talk to Adam.]

That is what Jesus did 4000 years later with his disciples.


Then he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit.  John 20:22

I see it similar to what you're presenting . . .
Adam "represents" (type and shadow" spirit and Eve represents soul . . .satan represents the carnality of the soul, dust/dirt/earth/earthiness is what it thrives on, which is why it didn't approach Adam because our spiritual positioning has never been touched by carnality.

I believe of course Eve "did" have a spirit as we are given the gift to reproduce after our own kind.  The breath of life was given to Adam, the breath of life that was "in" Adam's DNA was also in Eve's as she was built from the (skeletal) frame of man.