The chicken or the egg?

[micah7:9]

But it is not the spiritual life (Jesus the flesh man) which came first,
but the physical (Adam),
and then the spiritual (Jesus).

Adam, psuche, and individual living breath of the Elohim.

But, we..man was first a living soul/breathing creature. I believe at this beginning point that the spiritual Jesus is not yet in place. And saying that has no relation at this point at all. It may be just me.

[micah7:9]

This is the thought, reason, and theory, accepted, it would "seem" to be how man was "first" a spirit and (lowered) and to become a natural, earthy man(a living breathing in soul) and then to become a spiritual man or being.
Now I realize their are some who will express that this was not or is not how they came about their reasoning, but a revelation came to them without this knowledge, and that is okay. But J. Preston Eby who has for a long time offered much in his writings and known by many as a forerunner in many of who seek deeper things from Our Lord and Savio; and I believe he is a man that the Lord has blessed him greatly.
"Bro. Eby has so well written, we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience." (This is a quote from a Robert Torango letter I received as I asked other brothers about the subject.
I contend that if that is so, then I must figure that Paul wrote a riddle in 1Co 15:42  Thus, also the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption,
1Co 15:43  It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory, it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power,
1Co 15:44  It is sown a body of the soul, it is raised a body of the spirit; if there is a body of the soul, there is also of the spirit:—
1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.
1Co 15:47  The first man, is of the ground, earthy, the second man, is, of heaven:
1Co 15:48  As, the man of earth, such, also, the men of earth, and, as, the man of heaven, such, also, the men of heaven;
1Co 15:49  And, even as we have borne the image of the man of earth, let us also bear the image of the man of heaven.

I personally would like this understanding that Bro. Eby states to be a truth that I may lay this aside. I have mentioned earlier,  that I had accepted this offering of Bro. Eby for decades, it is just now that I am stumbling.  :HeartThrob:

i get eby's belief, and i get where u are coming from from these verses listed above.  but it doesn't explain to me, why the RE prefix, ie:  "raised in glory" to me would mean REsurrection.   "back to something, which would be in this case glory".  Micah, any thoughts as to the RE words in scripture.  ??

Good thoughts. We do return, there is a RE in all of this, I am waiting on the Lord. What Bro. Eby has taught has been in my belief for quite sometime, I am left without the understanding at this point, that is why I have posted.

[Beloved Servant]

But it is not the spiritual life (Jesus the flesh man) which came first,
but the physical (Adam),
and then the spiritual (Jesus).

Adam, psuche, and individual living breath of the Elohim.

But, we..man was first a living soul/breathing creature. I believe at this beginning point that the spiritual Jesus is not yet in place. And saying that has no relation at this point at all. It may be just me.

Except for the fact that all things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.

[Beloved Servant]

The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen.

so...

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

[micah7:9]

"we are not a human being having a spiritual experience, but a spiritual being having a human experience."  This is either an assumption with good intent or it is a theory and thought. I have stated and believe that God is Spirit and that ALL things come form God. It is a TRUTH. So most certainly as ALL things come from God, who is spirit, all must be from the spirit. But man was FIRST(foremost, first in line in place and time) a soullish earthy breathing creature.
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
And to say that man, the man of Genesis 2:7 was a spirit lowered to a state of what we call humanity only to go through the path of this life to return again to the spirit is not inline with what Paul teaches in 1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual."
  1Co 15:47 The first man was out of the earth, soilish; the second Man is the Lord out of heaven."

[micah7:9]

The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen.

so...

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Beloved, "The "re" is the fact that God fragmented Himself to create what is seen." where did you get this "fragmenting" of Himself to create what is seen? Now we have a God who is inpart? From my understanding God is ONE.

[Beloved Servant]

The creation was thrust OUT OF Christ, lowered into this gross material realm. This we have verified in the following scriptures: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20). Again, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). I do not wish to appear to be "splitting hairs" nor do I wish to invent doctrines, but to me it is infinitely important to pay special attention to the word "foundation" in the passages just quoted. Foundation is from the Greek word KATABOLE, derived from KATABALLO, which is a compound of two words, KATA, meaning "down", and BALLO, meaning "to throw". The precise meaning of the word is "to throw down" and bespeaks, moreover, a rupture, breach, breaking or tearing assunder, schism, scission, fission - a disruption. It does not mean, as our Authorized Version has it, the establishing of the foundation of the world, but, conversely, the breaking up or disruption of the world! The Concordant Version of the New Testament correctly renders it thus: "Christ ... a flawless and unspotted Lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world." Again, "...the Lambkin which has been slain from the disruption of the world."

The question readily follows: When did this disruption of the world occur? It will be helpful to turn to Gen. 1:1-2 wherein we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The first verse contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act. Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word study of this second verse will reveal.

In the Authorized Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word in the Hebrew text is also translated "but", or "moreover". Thus in the Septuagint version of the scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible was". The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became", so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became". This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become..." Tohu v'bohu! This phrase, "tohu v'bohu", is translated in the American Revision waste and void". In the Authorized Version it reads, "without form and void", but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says, "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makes the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life. The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined, unfurnished, disrupted, fragmented and chaotic, covered with water and shrouded in darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters. Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation, or re-creation. Isaiah states that God created the earth not a waste (Isa. 45:18) and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste.

When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation.

[CHB]

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

[WhiteWings]

i get eby's belief, and i get where u are coming from from these verses listed above.  but it doesn't explain to me, why the RE prefix, ie:  "raised in glory" to me would mean REsurrection.   "back to something, which would be in this case glory".  Micah, any thoughts as to the RE words in scripture.  ??

RE is English. Not Hebrew of Greek.

[micah7:9]

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

That just about where I am found on this CHB. Also Beloved, are those your words that you m posted?

[micah7:9]

The creation was thrust OUT OF Christ, lowered into this gross material realm. This we have verified in the following scriptures: "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you" (I Pet. 1:19-20). Again, "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8). I do not wish to appear to be "splitting hairs" nor do I wish to invent doctrines, but to me it is infinitely important to pay special attention to the word "foundation" in the passages just quoted. Foundation is from the Greek word KATABOLE, derived from KATABALLO, which is a compound of two words, KATA, meaning "down", and BALLO, meaning "to throw". The precise meaning of the word is "to throw down" and bespeaks, moreover, a rupture, breach, breaking or tearing assunder, schism, scission, fission - a disruption. It does not mean, as our Authorized Version has it, the establishing of the foundation of the world, but, conversely, the breaking up or disruption of the world! The Concordant Version of the New Testament correctly renders it thus: "Christ ... a flawless and unspotted Lamb, foreknown, indeed, before the disruption of the world." Again, "...the Lambkin which has been slain from the disruption of the world."

The question readily follows: When did this disruption of the world occur? It will be helpful to turn to Gen. 1:1-2 wherein we read, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The first verse contents itself with a simple statement of a consummated act. Not a word about the method, manner, means or procedure of creation, and nothing of its result. The second verse carries a tremendous suggestion of collapse in its touching picture of the Spirit of God brooding over the watery face of the formless void! Let us see what a careful word study of this second verse will reveal.

In the Authorized Version the text begins: "And the earth was..." This word in the Hebrew text is also translated "but", or "moreover". Thus in the Septuagint version of the scripture the text begins: "But the earth had become..." and this is the sense of the Vulgate as well. The second word to be noted is the one translated in the English Bible was". The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became", so the word "was" is always used to carry out the sense of "became". This phrase then literally reads, "But the earth had become..." Tohu v'bohu! This phrase, "tohu v'bohu", is translated in the American Revision waste and void". In the Authorized Version it reads, "without form and void", but the sense of this phrase is even stronger than that. The Septuagint says, "But the earth had become unfurnished and empty," the Vulgate says, "dreary and empty," and the Aramaic makes the strongest and clearest statement of all: "And the earth had become ruined and uninhabited!" Hebrew scholars have said that this is the clearest statement of all, as the term "tohu v'bohu" literally means "desolation succeeding previous life. The second verse of Genesis, then, literally should read, "But the earth had become desolate, ruined, unfurnished, disrupted, fragmented and chaotic, covered with water and shrouded in darkness. And the Spirit of God brooded over the face of the waters. Let us clearly keep in mind that all this is prior to the six days of creation, or re-creation. Isaiah states that God created the earth not a waste (Isa. 45:18) and Moses states that the earth nevertheless had become a waste.

When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation.

Beloved I read almost the same thing on the word foundation- katabole in Dake's Bible. From my studies in Genesis, the word beginning can in part be read as "firstfruits." And with that thought I can reason that in/out of Jesus Christ was the creating. I reason and believe that ALL is created "bara" cut down or from Jesus Christ. And should that be true then the flesh man Jesus was not just a flesh man but He was Spirit all the time, so the what be the sense of it all?
1Co 15:15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused."
1Co 15:16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused."
1Co 15:17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith - you are still in your sins!"
1Co 15:18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished."
1Co 15:19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we."


May I also note that Dake considers at the time of this "katabole" was caused by "lucifer" attempting to usurp God's throne and failing, "lucifer" aka satan the devil was "thrown down" to our earthly realm to rule.

[Beloved Servant]

I am not absolutely 100% sure but I sure do have my doubts that we were spirit beings before. What purpose would there be in that anyway? Jesus remembered who and where he came from, he was spirit before, so why wouldn't we remember?  I thought the whole idea of Jesus death was so we would be immortal someday? If we were spirit at one time we were immortal then weren't we? It doesn't make any sense to me, of course that doesn't mean anything.  :bigGrin:

CHB

That just about where I am found on this CHB. Also Beloved, are those your words that you m posted?

NO.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/restitution.htm

[Beloved Servant]

I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

[Beloved Servant]

1961    hayah (224a); a prim. root; to fall out

[micah7:9]

Now tell me friend are you going to begin to build on that one out taking? "to fall out?"
H1961
היה
hâyâh
BDB Definition:
1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
1a) (Qal)
1a1) -----
1a1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
1a1b) to come about, come to pass
1a2) to come into being, become
1a2a) to arise, appear, come
1a2b) to become
1a2b1) to become
1a2b2) to become like
1a2b3) to be instituted, be established
1a3) to be
1a3a) to exist, be in existence
1a3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
1a3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
1a3d) to accompany, be with
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to occur, come to pass, be done, be brought about
1b2) to be done, be finished, be gone
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong's Number: a primitive root [compare H1933]
Same Word by TWOT Number: 491
Strongs
H1961
היה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.

[micah7:9]

I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

How is this? Is this true? Where can I find this information please?

[micah7:9]

I find this very interesting:

"The Hebrew language lacks a word for "became"

If that's the case, what really happened to Adam in Genesis 2:7 ???

"When God lowered the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Christ, to the gross material realm, there occurred a mighty disruption, breaking up, or fragmentation." From the artical.

I believe this, God lower the creation from the realm of pure spirit existence in Chirst, for ALL are in/of Christ the firstfruits;
Still this being know and acknowledged when He formed man from the dust of the ground, in my opinion, He did this not in a "spirit form" but of and in the natural/earthy form. The first man was of the earth, this then is where He begins His work and this man will return to the dust, not to the spirit, but the second Adam, the "new creature" born from above is of the spirit. this man will not return to the spirit for he is "of" the spirit being born again, from above.

[lomarah]

Something I find fascinating re: natural first then spiritual;  is all the verses in the bible using the RE prefix (which means to me, a return).  ie:   REconciled, REvealed, REvelation, REnewing, REstoration, REpent etc.     

why the RE, if we are not REturning to something we were before; but have forgotten;   ???

You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

[Beloved Servant]

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

[Cardinal]

You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

:cloud9: That's exactly what happened to us. A spirit of forgetfulness was placed on us (carnal mind) and the mind of Christ is allowing us to recall things. He spoke to me while I was studying the Word, not too long after I came to Him, and He said, "You're not really learning this, you're REMEMBERING it." Being a newbie, I didn't realize what He had said to me was going to produce an earthquake in anyone I told, LOL....I thought it was my duty to tell what I heard. I was the poster child for having zeal without knowledge.  :icon_jokercolor:

[Molly]

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

[Beloved Servant]

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

[Beloved Servant]

You know, my husband and I have been watching a new television show called 'Once Upon a Time', it's about all the fairytale characters who have had a curse put on them from the wicked witch. The curse is that they end up in our world and forget who they are and where they've come from. I can't seem to stop wondering if that is what has happened to us as well... (Not that we're fairytale creatures that have had a curse put on us by a wicked witch but you get my drift LOL)

:cloud9: That's exactly what happened to us. A spirit of forgetfulness was placed on us (carnal mind) and the mind of Christ is allowing us to recall things. He spoke to me while I was studying the Word, not too long after I came to Him, and He said, "You're not really learning this, you're REMEMBERING it." Being a newbie, I didn't realize what He had said to me was going to produce an earthquake in anyone I told, LOL....I thought it was my duty to tell what I heard. I was the poster child for having zeal without knowledge.  :icon_jokercolor:

Amen, card.

Christ, the many-membered man is re-membered.

[Molly]

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

yes.

[Beloved Servant]

hayah;
Is that the same word in: I AM that I AM ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_Am_that_I_Am

Yep.  I AM.

Before Abraham was, I AM.     HAYAH

And it's the same word about Adam in Genesis 2:7.

yes.

So...
Adam did not "become" anything.