The chicken or the egg?

[Molly]

Now may the God of peace make you holy in every way, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ comes again. [1Thess 5:21]

and may your whole
spirit pneuma
soul psuche   
body soma   


BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.  Acts 2:27

NT Soul = psuche
OT Soul= nephesh [psa 16:10]

And Yeshua called out in a loud voice and he said, "My Father, into your hands I lay down my spirit." He said this and he expired. [Lk 23:46]

spirit=pneuma

For then the dust will return to the earth, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. [eccl 12:7]

spirit= ruach

All the valiant men arose, and went all night, and took the body of Saul and the bodies of his sons from the wall of Bethshan, and came to Jabesh, and burnt them there.[1 Sam 31:12]

body=g'viyah [alive or dead]



OT spirit ruarch=new testament spirit pneuma
OT soul nephesh=new testament soul psuche
OT body g'viyah=new testament body soma


:dontknow:

[micah7:9]

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.    LIE

Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,    TRUTH

And thus we build our religion.

[Molly]

I don't quite understand what you are saying Micah.

Are you saying there is something wrong with 1 thess 5:21 which refers to spirit, soul, and body?

[micah7:9]

I don't quite understand what you are saying Micah.

Are you saying there is something wrong with 1 thess 5:21 which refers to spirit, soul, and body?

I'm saying

Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying.    LIE

Gen 3:4 And saying is the serpent to the woman, "Not to die shall you be dying,    TRUTH

And thus we build our religion.

1Th 5:21  Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Could you mean ?
1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[micah7:9]

What I am saying is that 1Thes. 5: 23 is from a poem. Which leads to a misconception which you believe.


I am saying the formula body-soul-spirit is from the poem.

[micah7:9]

"Let this also may help us understand, the "body and soul" is acually taken from a poem, "Soul and Body refers to two anonymous Old English poems: Soul and Body I, which is found in the Vercelli Book, and Soul and Body II, found in the Exeter Book. It is one of the oldest poems to have survived in two manuscripts of Old English, each poem slightly different than the other. Despite the poems' differences (in structure and length, for example), the Soul and Body poems address similar themes, themes about the duality of human nature."
"Though the precise date of the Exeter Codex's inscription is still unknown, it may generally be described as one of the great works of the English Benedictine revival of the tenth century, and proposed dates of authorship generally range from 960 to 990. This period saw a rise in monastic activity and productivity under the renewed influence of Benedictine principles and standards. At the opening of the period, Dunstan's importance to the Church and to the English kingdom was established, culminating in his appointment to the Archbishopric at Canterbury under Edgar and leading to the monastic reformation by which this era was characterised. Dunstan died in 998, and by the period's close, England under Æthelred faced an increasingly determined Scandinavian incursion, to which it would eventually succumb.
The Exeter Book's heritage becomes traceable as of 1050, when Leofric was made Bishop at Exeter. Among the treasures which he is recorded to have bestowed upon the then-impoverished monastery is one famously described "mycel englisc boc be gehwilcum þingum on leoðwisan geworht" (i.e., "a large English book of poetic works about all sorts of things"). This book has been widely assumed to be the Exeter Codex as it survives today."  Wike

[Molly]

What I am saying is that 1Thes. 5: 23 is from a poem. Which leads to a misconception which you believe.

Is from a poem?  You mean it isn't in the Bible?

[micah7:9]

Have you built your entire belief and doctrine on that one verse?  1Th 5:23  And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you really believe that the soul is separate entity from the body? That the soul is something other than the living being that we are? A person? Do you really believe in an immortal soul? Do you really believe that the soul will not die? I you believe what I asked then, I just wonder what Bible you have put your faith in. The soul is life, it is our spirit, the spirit(breath) keeps our body alive. Is there another verse that speaks of a body soul and spirit?

[Molly]

The words for body, soul, and spirit are all in both the Old and New Testaments.

You will not leave my soul in hades [so where is the soul going then? to heaven?]nor allow your holy one to see corruption [of the body].

But, meanwhile, my spirit has been commended into the father's hands.  So, spirit goes back to God [in heaven], but separated for a time from the soul [which is in hades] and the body [which is turning to dust].

So yes, I would say we are three parts--body, soul, and spirit.

Or what is Jesus redeeming?  Just our bodies? 

But, he has prepared a body for us in heaven until the redemption of the body takes place.

I'm not just depending on one scripture.

[micah7:9]

The words for body, soul, and spirit are all in both the Old and New Testaments.

You will not leave my soul in hades [so where is the soul going then? to heaven?]nor allow your holy one to see corruption [of the body].

But, meanwhile, my spirit has been commended into the father's hands.  So, spirit goes back to God [in heaven], but separated for a time from the soul [which is in hades] and the body [which is turning to dust].

So yes, I would say we are three parts--body, soul, and spirit.

Or what is Jesus redeeming?  Just our bodies? 

But, he has prepared a body for us in heaven until the redemption of the body takes place.

I'm not just depending on one scripture.

I await the scriptures.  When you yield to a truth that in the OT a soul was a life or a person. Properly and according to His Word, "You will not leave my "life" in the pit/grave...hades.
The spirit of which you speak is the "breath of life." This wind is what makes the body(dust) breath-live-be alive. You continue to mix that the breath of life which is the spirit that God lites as a separate entity, that a soul can live without the breathing body. It cant. Does the Bible teach there will be a resurrection of the body or the resurrection of the dead? In my opinion you weld much of your belief to religion rather than the Word of God. Should we now have an immortal soul, what need does man have for the resurrection of the dead, to become what we already are? Please show me scripture of body-soul - and spirit. For that matter show me more than 1 Thes. 5:23. Molly I love you  :HeartThrob:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

[WhiteWings]

:cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

Leviticus 26:11And I set my tabernacle among you: and my soul shall not abhor you.

(Psalms 51:11 [CLV])
O do not fling me from Your presence, And do not take Your holy spirit from me."

[Molly]

Cardinal, what is attached to the body by the silver cord?  Is that the soul?

What about something like coma.  Has the soul left the body?  Has the spirit?

What do we identify ourselves with when we say 'I'?  the soul or the spirit?

Who is the observer?  That one who only watches?

If you know...

[Molly]

6Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

7Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

--Ecc 12

The silver cord connecting soul and body might be why Micah equates soul with life of the body.  If that silver cord is cut, the soul is no longer attached to the body, and death occurs.

Various things are discussed in this verse as the parts of a man or the things that man has access to:

silver cord

golden bowl

pitcher

fountain

wheel

cistern

[micah7:9]

:cloud9: You may not realize it, but the New Agers teach that the soul and the spirit are the same thing, for a very simple reason; if you think they are the same, then the soul doesn't need anything ie. cleansing and deliverance, so the person stays trapped in whatever bondages they have by remaining blinded.

I, too, thought they were the same until the Lord kept speaking to me as I was in the Word one day, "Male and female created He THEM". I thought this meant Adam was male and Eve was female, but that was not what He was saying here. He was saying that He made BOTH of them, male (spirit) and female (soul). And so rewording it to our modern ears, what He was saying was, "I made THEM, both male and female".

I had already sensed there was something different about them from reading the Word and seeing the word usage of the two, but I had no idea what, since I thought they were the same. What followed was all He has taught me on it, adding over the years, as He sees fit.

A lot of the churches think this too, and wonder why there is no deliverance and people fall to the same sins they were in bondage to before they came to the Lord. The word salvation has a dual meaning of deliverance, which is why it says to work out your own salvation (deliverance) with fear and trembling. But if you are taught that you have no soul, and thus it doesn't need deliverance, then the state of that man has not changed, except for his spirit that was saved.

We are saved, spirit (outer court initial salvation), soul (inner court), and body (Holy of Holies). It's not a one time event, it's a process, and just as the priests of the Tabernacle pattern couldn't take it upon themselves to jump from outer court to Holy of Holies, neither can we skip the inner court experiences foreshadowed by the lighting of the candlestick (baptism in the Holy Ghost) and the trimming of the wicks (cutting away that which is only good for burning, ie. deliverance, which is also witnessed by circumcision). My  :2c:  Blessings....

I aint never read a word of a "New Ager" or what ever, and the above is your opinion right? Because, in my opinion I have not found anywhere that God gave man a soul, call it the inner court if you wish. I have heard and followed and taught this trinity teaching of body soul and spirit for a long time and, in my opinion it is no longer sound doctrine. (Oh I see it is your 2 cents.)

[Molly]

I know the atheists around me believe you are just a body, they are total materialists, and of course, no God, so they believe that once the body dies, that's it.  You are dead, hook, line, and sinker.

Of course, I know better myself for many reasons, not the least of which I have left my own body twice, and I have seen the silver cord attaching 'me' to my body, experienced this before I ever read about it in the Bible.

So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?  But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?  What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?

[CHB]

What about this verse?

(1John 3:2)
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it does not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

CHB

[Molly]

when he "appears"

phaneroo

Manifests himself, reveals himself


When he reveals himself [in us] we shall be like him.


From phaneros which means 'shining.'

[Cardinal]

Cardinal, what is attached to the body by the silver cord?  Is that the soul?

What about something like coma.  Has the soul left the body?  Has the spirit?

What do we identify ourselves with when we say 'I'?  the soul or the spirit?

Who is the observer?  That one who only watches?

If you know...

:cloud9:  The silver cord is the spiritual counterpart to the umbilical cord between mother and child. (Really brings the scripture about being born from above into focus, doesn't it?)  :winkgrin:

The soul leaves the body in a coma, which is why some of them report seeing themselves from a vantage point above their body. I saw myself this way after surgery when I was young, apparently from the anesthetics they gave me. This is why the enemy of our souls loves drug and alcohol addictions, because a loss of consciousness from abusing the temple can release the soul from the body, vacating it temporarily for demonic spirits to enter.

When the spirit leaves you die. The separation of spirit and soul is what happened in the garden. This is why the resurrection IS, the re-union of soul and spirit (which is why He went to preach to those that had gone before).

The really startling thing to me here of late, was to realize that HE did it (by taking Eve out of Adam essentially), knowing a divided house could not stand.

What they did, was a walking out of what had ALREADY been done, once again following the pattern of the body doing what it sees the head do.

The difference between Him doing it, and them doing it, was the MOTIVE OF THE HEART. My  :2c:  Blessings....

[micah7:9]

I know the atheists around me believe you are just a body, they are total materialists, and of course, no God, so they believe that once the body dies, that's it.  You are dead, hook, line, and sinker.

Of course, I know better myself for many reasons, not the least of which I have left my own body twice, and I have seen the silver cord attaching 'me' to my body, experienced this before I ever read about it in the Bible.

So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?  But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?  What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?

"So, Micah, what separates you from the atheists is that you believe God will bring our bodies back from the dead?"
I do not believe that God will bring our bodies from the dead. Where ever did you get that?

"But, you, like them, are totally materialistic about the human condition?"
Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

" What you see is what you get and it all dies when the body dies?"
I, unlike you it seems, believes what the Bible teaches. I know, I know that's just old David and Solomon, and God saying that.
I'll take their word for it.
Gen 3:19  In the sweat of thy face, shalt thou eat bread, until thou return to the ground, because therefrom, wast thou taken,—For, dust, thou art, And, unto dust, shalt thou return.
Psa 104:29  Thou hidest thy face, they are dismayed, Thou withdrawest their spirit, They cease to breathe, And, unto their own dust, do they return:
Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Ecc 9:5  For, the living, knew that they should die,—-but, the dead, knew not, anything, neither had they any longer a reward, because forgotten was their memory.


By the way any luck on finding that verse that tells us where God put a soul in man?

[Beloved Servant]

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If the soul is dead, how is Jesus the Savior of ALL mankind?

[WhiteWings]

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

Micah, not taking sides because I'm still not sure myself.
God created Adam from dust. Adam was nothing more that a dead lump of clay.
They God blew life into Adam. Adam became a living soul.
Note: Became is added by the translators. Hebrew: man living soul.
So it's clear that the breath gives life to the otherwise dead body.
The soul was already alive before it entered the body.
The dead body is dead. The Bible is clear about that. It speaks about decay and totally returing to dust.
So it's very clear the lump of clay needs the breath (of God) to be alive.
But does the breath need the body to stay alive?
And how do we die?

(Psalms 104:29 [ACV])
Thou hide thy face, they are troubled. Thou take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

Perhaps to literal but if God takes the breath, it's in His hands. Aka it returned to God?


(Isaiah 55:11 [ACV])
so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth. It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please. And it shall prosper in the thing to which I sent it.

I can find no matching words but in a way words are also breath. Likely taking things a bit to far
Back to Genesis.
(Genesis 2:7 [CLV])
And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

I think we have a little formula here....

Dead dust + breath = living soul
Living soul - breath (taken away by God) = Dead dust
Living soul - dead dust = breath

So: Dead dust = dead soul  ==> Soul is just another word for dust.....?

:dontknow:

What if I compare it with a car and driver?

Car = body
gasoline = breath
Driver = spirit

The car drives until it runs out of gas (no more breath).
The car rusts until nothing is left. The drive take the stairway to heaven.


Ecc 12:7  And the dust return to the earth, as it was,—and, the spirit, return unto God, who gave it.
Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

[WhiteWings]

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it.

Jesus tomb was empty and He walked around in a body. They didn't recognize Him at first but later they did. So I think that means God "upgraded" the dust of Jesus' body that was on earth for a few decades.
If the heavenly body is totally new I would think Jesus' old body would be left in the tomb to decay and God just gave Him another body.
:dontknow:

[Molly]

Where in the creation account does it state that God gives a spirit?

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God created he him;
male and female created he them. [Gen 1]

God creates man in his own image.  God is spirit.  Man is spirit, also.

But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.[Job 32:8]

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [Rom 8:16]


spirit = ruach [Hebrew]= pneuma [Greek[

Man also has a physical component [dust and water] and a soul component.

"He restoreth my soul" (Psalm 23:3).

I Peter 3
:20 Which sometime were disobedient,
when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,
while the ark was a preparing,
wherein few,
that is,
eight souls were saved by water.

soul=psuche [Greek]

man became a living soul

soul=nephesh [Hebrew]

Thus, man is body [soma], spirit [pneuma], and soul [psuche].

My soul magnifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior. [Lk 1:46,47]

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul [psuche] and spirit [pneuma], and of the joints and marrow (body soma), and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart (Hebrews 4:12).

[micah7:9]

Don't know about that, I just know that a soul dies when the breath in the body of the soul quits breathing the soul is dead.

If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it.


Jesus tomb was empty and He walked around in a body. They didn't recognize Him at first but later they did. So I think that means God "upgraded" the dust of Jesus' body that was on earth for a few decades.
If the heavenly body is totally new I would think Jesus' old body would be left in the tomb to decay and God just gave Him another body.
:dontknow:



If the soul is dead, how is Jesus the Savior of ALL mankind?

"[/quote]If God is able to create a universe out of nothing and fill it with life, then it's not hard for me to imagine that He also has the power to restore it."  Whose quote is this?