The chicken or the egg?

[CHB]

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

[thinktank]

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

[CHB]

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

So Micah, have you changed your mind on this? If so, how do you see this now? If we were spirit before what were we? Were we part of the breath of God, or some other form. Do you think we looked like we do now?  What were we? Just wondering?

CHB

Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

Why do you say that?

CHB

[thinktank]

I guess I find it hard to believe he has changed his mind, but we'll see.

The joke works on many levels.

[WhiteWings]

Don't hold you'r "breath!"   :grin:

:icon_jokercolor:

Why not? It's a good thing  :laughing7:

7 And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul.

[Beloved Servant]

Wait.

I'm still under the impression that there is no Hebrew word for "become."

Is there not one translation of the Bible that avoids using it?

[Beloved Servant]

Hmmm...


The word shown here — u iei — is not the word "hayah" that is used in other translations.

Gotten here:   http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm

[attachment deleted by admin]

[micah7:9]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

[thinktank]

what does it profit a man of he gain the world but lose his soul.

[Molly]

You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

[micah7:9]

what does it profit a man of he gain the world but lose his soul.

"...man became a living soul..."  Lev 17:11  For as for the life of the flesh, in the blood,..."

In my opinion, what does it profit a man if he gain the world but lose his "life."

[micah7:9]

You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

How did we get to #4 when I have not found a step #3? and of course man is immortal, I forgot that :sigh:

[Molly]

You forgot in your description of the creation of Adam that God took a fourth step.

He gave Adam free and unfettered access to the tree of life.

As long as Adam had that, he was immortal.

And, the Adam who has Jesus, has that once again.

We are immortal.

How did we get to #4 when I have not found a step #3? and of course man is immortal, I forgot that :sigh:

Ok.  I got lost in your steps.  You said there was no step three.

So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality.

And we are restored through Jesus to that immortality.

This is all about the law too.

Adam's immortality is conditional on Adam following the law [don't eat from that tree].

But, our immortality through Jesus is unconditional.  He has fulfilled the law for us.

[micah7:9]

Now, I must ask when we read about this whole man way back in Genisis 2 and 7 help me count the parts/steps.
Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

1) formed man of the dust of the ground

2)  breathed into his nostrils the breath of life

3)  ?

and man became a living soul.

As for, "So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality." (Molly) That's how you see it huh?

It just seems to me that there are some pages in my Bible(s) that omit these very important step or parts. I know of no "immortality" until Romans 2:7

(ASV)  to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:

(CLV) to those, indeed, who by endurance in good acts are seeking glory and honor and incorruption, life eonian;"

(KJV)  To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


(Rotherham)  Unto them, on the one hand, who, by way of endurance in good work, are seeking, glory, honour and incorruption, life age-abiding,

(WNT)  to those on the one hand who, by lives of persistent right-doing, are striving for glory, honour and immortality, the Life of the Ages;

(YLT)  to those, indeed, who in continuance of a good work, do seek glory, and honour, and incorruptibility--life age-during;
Now I see you call it "conditional" immortality, but in so doing aren't you assuming that the Lord God did not figure that man/adam would eat of the tree?

[Molly]

As for, "So step three is God gave Adam conditional immortality." (Molly) That's how you see it huh?

Well yes, and who knows how long Adam spent in the garden.  Maybe it was ten thousand years.

But, as long as he was there, he had conditional immortality for as long as he obeyed the law.

We see a similar thing going on with the Israelites in Deut 28--as long as you keep my commandments and harken to my voice all these wonderful things will happen to you, but if you don't, all these terrible things will happen to you.

Again, conditional on obeying God's commandments.

But, through Christ, we have unconditional immortality.

We are immortal now.

[micah7:9]

 :sigh:    Think so huh?

Satan's trinity of man

The adversary has a trinity teaching and that doctrine is taught in all of Chistianity, and believed. What is it? It's the teaching that man is made up of body-soul- spirit.
That man has an immortal soul. I at one time accepted the teaching, drew charts and taught it, until my eyes were opened.

1Th 5:23  and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
Clarke commentary: Your whole spirit and soul and body - Some think that the apostle alludes to the Pythagorean and Platonic doctrine, which was acknowledged among the Thessalonians. I should rather believe that he refers simply to the fact, that the creature called man is a compound being, consisting,
1.   Of a body, σωμα, an organized system, formed by the creative energy of God out of the dust of the earth; composed of bones, muscles, and nerves; of arteries, veins, and a variety of other vessels, in which the blood and other fluids circulate.
2.   Of a soul, ψυχη, which is the seat of the different affections and passions, such as love, hatred, anger, etc., with sensations, appetites, and propensities of different kinds.
3.   Of spirit, πνευμα, the immortal principle, the source of life to the body and soul, without which the animal functions cannot be performed, how perfect soever the bodily organs may be; and which alone possesses the faculty of intelligence, understanding, thinking, and reasoning, and produces the faculty of speech wherever it resides, if accident have not impaired the organs of speech.
"1Th 5:23 Himself but the God of the peace may sanctify you entirely; and whole of you the spirit and the life and the body blameless in the presence of the Lord of us Jesus Anointed may be preserved."   (Emp. Diag.)

[Beloved Servant]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

[micah7:9]

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna" (Matt. 10:28.)

IMMORTAL SOUL?

I am now going to show you how to be smarter and more knowledgeable than most theologians in the world—(at least in this one little point.) Okay; follow very closely, for we are going to get really really technical for a few minutes:

First: Can God "destroy the body?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the body." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that most of you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? Yes, from all that I know, they do believe Jesus on this point.

Next: Can God "destroy the soul?" Well, yes, of course He can; Jesus just said that He "is ABLE." So God "IS able to destroy the soul." Now, I believe Jesus. I think that (some of) you believe Jesus. But, do orthodox pastors and theologians believe Jesus? No, of course not. How can a soul which they teach is immortal ever be "destroyed?" Now let's proceed to some more "technical stuff:"

God created humanity in two stages, not three (Gen. 2:7):

[1] "And the Lord God formed man [Heb: 'adam, a human being'] of the dust [Heb: 'aphar, powdered gray, hence clay'] of the ground [Heb: 'adamah, soil']

[2] "and breathed into his nostrils the breath [Heb: 'n'shahmah, puff, wind'] of life [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] and man became [Heb: 'hayah, exist, be, become, come to pass'] a living [Heb: 'chay, alive, life, living'] soul [Heb: 'nephesh, a breathing creature, animal, vitality, mind, mortality'.]"

Well, there you have it: God's abbreviated version of how He created humanity.

Let me next draw your attention to something that few Christians have ever seen, even though it is right before their eyes in every Bible on earth. I said that God created man in two stages rather than three. I emphasize this because theology teaches that God made man in three stages. Here is their unscriptural version: First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God put an immortal soul into the man. If you doubt that this is what they teach, ask your pastor.

However, did we read of these fabled three stages of man's creation in the Scripture quoted above? No, no we didn't. We read of two things in man's creation at the hands of God. First God formed the man of the ground, Second God breathed life into the man, and Third God...? God what? There ain't no Third. "man became a living soul" is part of stage Two. There is no third stage. God did not "put an immortal soul into the man." Where do we read of such unscriptural nonsense?

God didn't need to do anything after He breathed into him the breath of life. It was the breath of life from God that caused the man to become a living soul. God didn't put a soul into Adam; Adam is a living soul. The spirit of man, which God gives to every human, is like a light switch—Switch it 'on' and the light glows: Switch it 'off' and the light is dark, gone, dead. Put the spirit in the man, and the man is a living soul: take the spirit out of the man, and the man is a dead soul. Do you think that even your children could understand this Scriptural Truth? Perhaps you should teach them, and then they could teach your pastor.

The "body" of the deceased is gone forever. In resurrection to immortality, God gives everyone a new spiritual body. God can bring back the person in any "body" He desires. When God puts your "spirit" (not you soul) but your spirit (which has no consciousness) back into another body (as in a resurrection with a new spiritual body,) the same real person/soul will live again. God can do this, but man can't, so fear God.
(Excerpt from L.Ray Smith LOF.....he makes it very simple, if you don't fight it, in my opinion)

If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

Mat 10:28 And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna."

[Beloved Servant]

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

[micah7:9]

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

He must or perhaps Jesus did not die?

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus — Himself — freely laid His life down and took it up again.

[micah7:9]

Jesus — Himself — freely laid His life down and took it up again.

Yes and Glory! But He was a man/human being and He laid it down to die. I, praise the Lord, if I may say it, have laid my life/soul down as well, and I will die. Die whether it is the death appointed to all men or the the spiritual death to self. But indeed, should I not die, I cannot be resurrected as my Saviour Jesus Christ.
1Co 15:16  for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen,
1Co 15:17 and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins;

[Beloved Servant]

Then we are right back to:


If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

and

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

[micah7:9]

Then we are right back to:


If God destroys souls — how is it they He have all men be saved?

and

If He is able to — yet never does it — what then is there to fear?

Again it is my ignorance showing. I do not know what you are saying or asking. I have more ignorance that smarts, I'm sorry Beloved, I am dense at times.

[micah7:9]

Removed by Micah, reason, beating a dead horse,