The chicken or the egg?

[micah7:9]

I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

CHB, you bring up very good points, but reading again Jabcats post, we just about have to stop our questioning, Why? Well to continue to delve into more information, we unfortunately must dip into one of them taboo subjects. And we cant go there. At least that is my opinion.

[CHB]

I was looking for more information on this and came across this site.

http://www.letusreason.org/LDS24.htm

CHB

[jabcat]

I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

:bigGrin:  I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

However, even putting that aside, it still doesn't explain God, Who is Spirit.  Wasn't He first, and hasn't He ALWAYS been Spirit?  When was He "natural" first?

[jabcat]

I John 4:2    Of course He CAME in the flesh.  Where was He before that?  I believe scripture teaches He was with the Father.

Same thing with 2 John 1:7

IMO, neither one of those verses has anything to do with an initial earthly creation of Jesus, as if He never existed in any form at all prior to that.   They're saying He did leave His place and COME to earth for a season and a purpose.

[CHB]

 

  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

Right!! I agree with this. I was just saying that Jesus didn't exist as Jesus before he became human. Adam didn't exist as Adam before he was made, created, was or became human. Maybe this is what we are missing??? I don't know.  :dontknow: it was just a thought I had.

I do think a lot of things are assumed about this topic, like we agreed to become human and forgot who we are. Other things like this that are no where in the Bible.

CHB

[jabcat]

OK, I hear ya sis.  Good, thanks.  :dsunny:

I looked up some interesting scrips I may post in a bit. 

[micah7:9]

Heb 2:9  and him who was made. Now where do we go from here? We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

"I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural." Jabcat

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?  Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made

Yes, what or who was this Jesus, the man, the Saviour of the world Before He was MADE as the man? Again, We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

[jabcat]

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?

No, my point was that CHB brought up Jesus the man   seemingly as if it were a beginning of the Son of God.  She clarified that's not exactly what she meant, but if it were,  I'm saying that's a technicality -  and addressing that the Son of God didn't suddenly come into existence when He was born a man - whether He had the NAME Jesus yet or not.   That He was in existence before that. 

I also said this;  "Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence...", in an attempt to circumvent the stumbling over that part of the issue as well.  I'm addressing the current thread of discussion, "natural/spirital", not all the other "side" issues.

I'm NOT making an argument regarding "that which is taboo".  I am saying, in accord with this thread, that I believe the Son of God was spirit first, then came to us in the natural.  And God, I don't see where He was ever "natural" first.  Maybe you see it differently.   Blessings.

Good scrips, everyone can see what they're given to see here.   :thumbsup:

Philippians 2:6-9 

Although He existed inherently in God's form, He didn't think that continuing on an equality with God was a thing to be forcibly taken;  rather, He emptied Himself, as He took the form of a slave and became like humans.  How when He was found in the temporary form like a human, He humbled Himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a stake.  For this reason too, God has highly elevated him, and favored Him with the name that is above every name ["Yesu" which means "Yehweh-Savior"]  The Christian Bible
------------

6who, being in the form of God, thought [it] not robbery to be equal to God,

7but did empty himself, the form of a servant having taken, in the likeness of men having been made,

8and in fashion having been found as a man, he humbled himself, having become obedient unto death -- death even of a cross,

9wherefore, also, God did highly exalt him, and gave to him a name that [is] above every name,  YLT
-------------

6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name, NKJV
-----------------

who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be [f]grasped, 7 but [g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death [h]on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name  NAS
------------------

6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore, also, God highly exalts Him, and graces Him with the name that is above every name,  CLV

[micah7:9]

"I am saying, in accord with this thread, that I believe the Son of God was spirit first, then came to us in the natural." Jabcat

This  1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. is the
thread that I began. Speaking about adam/man being first a living soul. Somehow adam/man became spirit first, and the second man was not in the question. Or maybe I'm in error?

[jabcat]

Oh.  Do you have any verses for this?  Also does that nullify this basic teaching of Paul?
1Co 15:46 But not first the spiritual, but the soulish, thereupon the spiritual." 
How does Him coming in the natural "again" figure in?

Sorry, I was just addressing that.

[Molly]

I mentioned something earlier about this, but I don't think you "liked" it much :)

I don't believe any scripture nullifies another, but there is context/primary purpose to be considered.  I.e., I haven't studied it all out carefully, but was Paul talking about absolutely everything and every situation, or a certain set of principles?    Because to me, the question remains, if his statement applies to absolutely everything, then it doesn't explain how Jesus was first spirit, then came in the natural.  Also, that God was and is always Spirit first.  So for me, there's not any nullifying to do, but trying to see how it all might fit together.   :2c:

Jesus was first natural, then spirit. Jesus wasn't known as JESUS until he became flesh. What does (1John 4:2 and 2John 7) mean?  Adam was natural first because it was after God made Adam from the dirt that he breathed into Adam and he became a living soul. There was no JESUS or ADAM until God created them.

CHB

Actually if you know Jesus as Y'shuah, you will see him all over the Old Testament.  So yes, he was first spiritual, and then physical;



Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; Heb 2:14


I have longed for Y'shuah, O LORD; and thy law is my delight. [Psa 119:174]

[Molly]

Heb 2:9  and him who was made. Now where do we go from here? We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

"I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural." Jabcat

And you can just take THE NAME out for a particular piece, for a technical reason?  Heb 2:9 Yet we are observing Jesus, Who has been made

Yes, what or who was this Jesus, the man, the Saviour of the world Before He was MADE as the man? Again, We cant go back, to a beginning for any evidence.

Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.'    It means to decrease.  So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote,  there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]

[thinktank]

First man Adam Earth ,The second Adam Lord from heaven?


In context maybe it means the resurection of the dead.

The first Adam brings death, but the second Adam the word made flesh is returning as the lord from heaven.

Since Jesus is spiritually form heaven, but physically he is from the earth, like adam, born of a woman and the seed of Abraham.

So maybe the reference is pertaining to the Resurected lord from heaven who returns as the lord from heaven, that where he is we may be also.


The second Adam cannot be from heaven, unless he has been resurected, in the likness of Adam.
Otherwise the passage should read not the second Adam, but simply the Lord returns as God. But it says the second Adam is the Lord from heaven, thereby this Lord must be in the likeness of man( second Adam), and the only Lord that is man, is Jesus Christ the son of man, for ye see this Jesus whom ye have crucified has been made both lord and saviour and resurected from the dead, thus qualifies as he who ascended into heaven sitting at the right hand of God as seen by Stephen, and is now our high priest and we become fashioned into his glorious body,  The first Adam was of the earth, but the second Adam is the Lord from heaven.

[micah7:9]

Of course its just me, but perhaps going back to the original post would make things easier for me. It had nothing to do with the second adam but had to do with the first adam. So here is the middle at least. I do not see how we got to, "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.'    It means to decrease.  So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote,  there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]" Molly


I am given to see some of it but remain surrounded by questions. God is Spirit John 4:24
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
It would be ignorant for me to say that all things did not have beginning in God who is Spirit, I believe this adamantly.
I treasure this verse Psa 90:3  Thou turnest man unto a bruised thing, And sayest, Turn back, ye sons of men.

This one also, Ecc 1:6 Going to the south and turning around to the north, Around and around the wind is going, Yet on its courses the wind returns."
Ecc 1:7 All the watercourses are flowing to the sea, Yet there is no filling of the sea; To the place from which the watercourses are flowing, There they return to go forth again."

These verses and many more make me reason that all returns to where it came from and when that reasoning man also must have been spirit at the beginning and to the spirit he will return. I like it, I want to believe it. Men of God who I have read and recieved their words to be a truth, Eby, Prinzing, Roach but now this year within the last 6 months, I question this. Why?
How do I descern, understand and put into this equation the words of Paul    1Co 15:45  Thus, also, it is written—The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
1Co 15:46  Howbeit, not first, is the body of the spirit, but that, of the soul,—afterwards, that of the spirit.

How is it that Paul teaches that man was first in the natural and then the spirit "The first man, Adam, became, a living soul, the last Adam, a life-giving spirit."?
Against the stand that that all will return to spirit where they were first?

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

34Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.

--Mat 23



Where is he sending these righteous men from?

And, what makes them righteous to begin with?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. Eph 1:4

[micah7:9]

I do so regret my original post. I had no idea of the can of unrelated worms it would open. Please overlook anything I may have said in this thread, I had no idea what I was talking about, whatever I said is without thought or cause. I do ask your forgiveness for my silly and without substance statements. I just don't know what happened.

[Molly]

Of course its just me, but perhaps going back to the original post would make things easier for me. It had nothing to do with the second adam but had to do with the first adam. So here is the middle at least. I do not see how we got to, "Thou hast made him a little lower than the angels

The Greek word for 'made' is 'elattoo.' It means to decrease. So it could be written--Thou hast decreased him [to be] a little lower than the angels.

In Heb 2:9, which you quote, there are actually 3 Greek words used meaning [who was decreased for a short period of time] who was made ...[a little lower than the angels]" Molly

You don't see how we got here, yet you are the one who brought it up.  I was just answering your post.

But since we are here:  Thus it is written

The first man Adam became
The last Adam [ became ]

The first man Adam was made
The last Adam [ was made]

Paul often writes in parallel like this to make a point.

The word for 'became' is 'ginomai' and it means 'to cause to be' that is 'to become.'

Now we know that Jesus was not starting out as a man at all, much less a man who is a quickening spirit, but he was caused to be this for a purpose, as was Adam, by extension of the parallel,  caused to be a living soul for a purpose.

So if we look at the microcosm of Adam as man and Jesus as man, this is what we see--first the natural, then the spiritual. 

And Paul asks--how is that? or why is that?

Then he goes on to say [in the course of things] as we have born the image of the earthy, we will bear the image of the heavenly.

So there's more to this than meets the eye.

Because we know it was always God's intent that we would be HIS image bearers, in his likeness and image.

[jabcat]

So if we look at the microcosm of Adam as man and Jesus as man, this is what we see--first the natural, then the spiritual. 

And Paul asks--how is that? or why is that?

Then he goes on to say [in the course of things] as we have born the image of the earthy, we will bear the image of the heavenly.

as i said, i haven't studied this out...so is this the "context" i've been suggesting there must be?  i.e., that it's talking about "earthly things", not addressing heavenly things?   if so, that would certainly take into account my questions of the Father and the Son first being spiritual...as opposed to what happens in the natural domain...if the context of Paul's statement is that, then it makes perfect sense and fits in perfectly.  again, no contradictions, but sometimes it's hard to understand/rightly divide.   :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

You got that right, "So there's more to this than meets the eye." If only it could be seen.
So, was the first adam/man first natural or spiritual?

[Molly]

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

--Eph 1



And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. Acts 13:48

[Molly]

You got that right, "So there's more to this than meets the eye." If only it could be seen.
So, was the first adam/man first natural or spiritual?

Here is what I believe--

The first man Adam, the son of God,  was caused to become [a natural man] a living soul, so that the kinsman Redeemer, the last Adam, would partake in flesh and blood and become a life giving Spirit to redeem him, thereby redeeming the entire world in the process.

"The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.  Mat 13:44

For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. [1 Cor 6:20]

Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:  Ex 14:9

[micah7:9]

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Thanks. Now I know.

PS. I have humbly come to know in the last few days and weeks that I really do not know anything and that the track I have been following is so off course. Thank you all so much. :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:

I'm not sure if you're kidding or not brother, but I have those moments myself...had one just today.   :mblush:

[micah7:9]

Serious, my friend, serious.

[Cardinal]

:bigGrin:  I don't believe Jesus was first natural then spirit.  If it's a technicality, we can take away the name "Jesus" out of this particular piece.  I believe the Son (by whatever "name") existed before Jesus became an earthly man...He CAME to earth in the natural, not was suddenly CREATED in the natural.   Whatever argument one wants to make about when/how the Son of God came into existence, I certainly believe He lived before Mary conceived Him in earthly form.  He was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world Rev. 13:8.

However, even putting that aside, it still doesn't explain God, Who is Spirit.  Wasn't He first, and hasn't He ALWAYS been Spirit?  When was He "natural" first?

:cloud9: AMEN  :thumbsup: the physical man Jesus was the veil He hid behind, but that veil was rent. He said to the disciple who would not believe without seeing the rent veil again, blessed are those who believed without seeing (the rent veil with natural eyes). Blessings....