the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses

[Molly]

Believe what you want, ww,

No worries about that. I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine  :winkgrin:

Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means?

Anyway, that's all besides the topic. It about what Jesus did or did not say.

I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine  :winkgrin:

So do I.  And, I think the text makes it very clear what happened here.

Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means

When you back away from something and fall to the ground--that tends to be a visceral reaction, not a cognitive one.

[WhiteWings]

Believe what you want, ww,

No worries about that. I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine  :winkgrin:

Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means?

Anyway, that's all besides the topic. It about what Jesus did or did not say.

I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine  :winkgrin:

So do I.  And, I think the text makes it very clear what happened here.

Tell me what exactly happend there.
The topic is about a witness.
Did Jesus say anything that can be seen as witnessing? If yes; what?

Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means

When you back away from something and fall to the ground--that tends to be a visceral reaction, not a cognitive one.

We will see. First my other questions.

[Molly]

So Judas took a detachment of soldiers and some officers from the high priests and the Pharisees and went there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.

Jesus fully realized all that was going to happen to him, so he stepped forward to meet them. "Who are you looking for?" he asked.

They answered him, "Jesus from Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I AM." Judas, the man who betrayed him, was standing with them.

When Jesus told them, "I AM," they backed away and fell to the ground.

--John 18

This is what happens.  Judas stands there giving silent witness as Jesus identifies [gives witness to] himself to the guards, who for some reason, upon hearing I AM, back away and fall to the ground.

However you want to characterize it, this is not normal behavior on the part of the guards.  The guards by their behavior give another witness.  Did the Holy Spirit knock them down?  That's another witness.

They are, quite literally, blown back and blown over by his words.

It must have been quite dramatic to see.

I know because I've seen something similar [with the 3 muggers].

[WhiteWings]

What's so special about "I am". Those are very common words.

[Molly]

What's so special about "I am". Those are very common words.

Those words are special when said by God to identify [give witness to] himself.  When God told Moses, tell them I AM sent you, Moses didn't say, what's so special about those words.

Obviously, there was something special by the words combined with the way he said them--it's the combination that is special--as witnessed to by the reaction of the guards.

[WhiteWings]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

See reply #15

[Molly]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

[sheila]

 this is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ.He did not come by water only,but by water and blood.

  AND IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO TESTIFIES,BECAUSE THE SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH.FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT TESTIFY;THE SPIRIT,

  THE WATER AND THE BLOOD;AND THE THREE ARE IN AGREEMENT.

   WE ACCEPT MAN'S TESTIMONY,BUT GOD'S TESTIMONY IS GREATER,BECAUSE IT IS THE TESTIMONY OF GOD,

  WHICH HE HAS GIVEN ABOUT HIS SON.....

  AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY;GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE,AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON.  HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS LIFE

[WhiteWings]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

[Molly]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

He replied, "I Am" according to the Greek I'm looking at.

Jesus G2424 Iēsous saith G3004 legō unto them,G846 autos I G1473 egō am G1510 eimi he. [added by translator]

[micah7:9]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.

[WhiteWings]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.

Micah you don't have to know Greek to figure this one out. Just use your Bible software and look at a Greek text. Click on the Strong numbers and you will find G2424=Iēsous=Jesus twice. That should be a little hint.

[sheila]

Beautiful post,Micah

I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE

   IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]

[WhiteWings]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

He replied, "I Am" according to the Greek I'm looking at.

Jesus G2424 Iēsous saith G3004 legō unto them,G846 autos I G1473 egō am G1510 eimi he. [added by translator]

Another Greek translation:
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7562/john185.gif)
Click here for a larger image

[micah7:9]

But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"

According to whom?

According to the Greek text. See reply #15

Micah you don't have to know Greek to figure this one out. Just use your Bible software and look at a Greek text. Click on the Strong numbers and you will find G2424=Iēsous=Jesus twice. That should be a little hint.

I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.

  :happyclap:

[micah7:9]

Beautiful post,Micah

I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE

   IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]

GLORY TO THE LORD :grin:

[Molly]

Beautiful post,Micah

I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE

   IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]

Exactly.  :thumbsup:

Also, John is the gospel writer who is most concerned with the identity of Jesus, starting with John 1:1.

[micah7:9]

1Co 1:22  Seeing that both, Jews for signs, do ask, and, Greeks for wisdom, do seek,
1Co 1:23  Whereas, we, proclaim a Christ who hath been crucified,—unto Jews, indeed, an occasion of stumbling, and, unto Gentiles, foolishness;
1Co 1:24  But, unto the called themselves—both Jews and Greeks, Christ, God's power, and, God's wisdom.
2Ti 3:7  always learning, and never to a knowledge of truth able to come,
2Ti 3:8  and, even as Jannes and Jambres stood against Moses, so also these do stand against the truth, men corrupted in mind, disapproved concerning the faith;
2Ti 3:9  but they shall not advance any further, for their folly shall be manifest to all, as theirs also did become.

[Molly]

ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6.  Also, what text are you using?


Joh 18:6  As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476

[jabcat]

This is rich.  See how much you can glean from this;

The Jews carried stones again, so that they might stone Him,  Yesu responded to them, "I have shown you many ideal works from the Father;  because of which of these works are you going to stone Me?"  The Jews responded to Him, "We aren't going to stone you for an ideal act, but for slandering;  and because you, who are a human, make yourself out to be God.  Yesu responded to them, "Hasn't it been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?  If he said those were gods, to whom God's Word came (and the Writing can't be annulled), are you saying to the One whom the Father has purified and dispatched into the world, 'You are slandering,' because I said 'I am God's Son'?.  If I'm not doing my Father's works, you must stop believing me;  yet if I am doing them, even if you don't believe Me, you must be believing the works, so that you might know and be continually believing that the Father is in union with Me, and I am in union with the Father:"  ....He went away out of their hands.     John 10:31 onward, Christian Bible

[sheila]

   then Simeon blessed him,and said to his mother,' THIS CHILD IS DESTINED TO CAUSE THE RISING AND FALLING OF MANY IN ISRAEL.....

    AND WILL BE A SIGN THAT WILL BE SPOKEN AGAINST,SO THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS WILL BE REVEALED."

      CHRIST,GOD'S POWER[SIGN] AND WISDOM[KNOWLEDGE]

[Molly]

29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30For mine eyes have seen [thy salvation] Y'shuah,

[Lk 2]

[sheila]

 what do you guys think the sign of the son of man is?

[thinktank]

I think it's the lamb and/or the lion.

[WhiteWings]

ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6
Joh 18:6  As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476.

The first quote:http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
Same rendering in:
-BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 27h Edition. Copyright (c) 1993 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.

-TIS/TIM

These versions contain the Tischendorf NT 8th Edition with morphological tags:

Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874) GNT 8th Edition, 1869-1872.

The text is the result of the joint work of Clink Yale and Ulrik Petersen. For details see http://ulrikp.org/Tischendorf.


That and they is missing from your text.

Also, what text are you using

The first quote: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
The second quote: The Greek New Testament according to the Byzantine Textform, edited by Maurice A.Robinson and William G. Pierpont, 2000 edition This is the edition by Pierpont and Robinson of a Majority, or Byzantine,text of the NT.

Just checked KJV-1611 and KJV-1759

In Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM is all in caps.
But in John 18:5-6 there are no caps.
"I am" instead of "I AM"
"he" instead of "He" or "HE"