I think about 2006, I discussing about Judas and Jesus, that final evening in the garden, this was on a different site. When one of folks said that the OT states that there needs be two or three witnesses to bring a charge against another person. And he gave these two verses:
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses is he who is dead put to death; he is not put to death by the mouth of one witness;
Deu 19:15 `One witness doth not rise against a man for any iniquity, and for any sin, in any sin which he sinneth; by the mouth of two witnesses, or by the mouth of three witnesses, is a thing established.
Then the person asked who was the other witness? Well, that set me back, seeing that person never came back to that thread, so I went to digging and searching for that second witness. I believe it was revealed to me who it was.
Now, I found that to be a difficult task, so Im not going to say right now who I believe it is, I just would like to know if it is who I believe it is or not, from this forum? I aint trying to be no wise guy.
Witnesses against Jesus? The priests
Thats where I started :bigGrin:
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
Could it be the man with the linen cloth?
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
FYI many trials in the US are during night. :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2011, 08:29:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
FYI many trials in the US are during night. :winkgrin:
Like what? Civil servants don't even work until 5 o'clock. :mblush:
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
Why can't a judge be a witness? A judge does listen to people in court you know.
Matt 26 [ACV]
62 And the high priest having stood up, he said to him, Answer thou nothing? What do these testify against thee?
63 But Jesus was silent. And having responded, the high priest said to him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us if thou are the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus says to him, Thou have said. Nevertheless I say to you, Henceforth ye will see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming in the clouds of the sky.
65 Then the high priest tore his garments, saying, He has blasphemed. What further need have we of witnesses? Behold, now ye heard his blasphemy.
66 What does it seem to you? Having answered, they said, He is deserving of death.
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
Okay Molly I will, now whether the answer is clear is up to the believe.
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them,
`Whom do ye seek?' Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;'
Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and
Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 11:04:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
Okay Molly I will, now whether the answer is clear is up to the believe.
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?'
Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
That's a good one Micah. He witnessed against himself--twice, because the first time he identified himself they ended up prostrate on the ground, so he had to let them catch their breath and witness against himself again.
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?'
Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Jesus saith to them, `I am First mouth witness
Judas who delivered him Second mouth witness
Mar 14:45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2011, 06:08:05 AM
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?'
Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Jesus saith to them, `I am First mouth witness
Judas who delivered him Second mouth witness
Mar 14:45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.
That's brilliant, Micah!
And I pray an eye-opener for many.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 24, 2011, 06:27:58 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2011, 06:08:05 AM
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?'
Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Jesus saith to them, `I am First mouth witness
Judas who delivered him Second mouth witness
Mar 14:45 And as soon as he was come, he goeth straightway to him, and saith, Master, master; and kissed him.
Thankyou Beloved and as you Know to God be the Glory! :bigGrin: :dsunny:
That's brilliant, Micah!
And I pray an eye-opener for many.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2011, 06:08:05 AM
Joh 18:4 Jesus, therefore, knowing all things that are coming upon him, having gone forth, said to them, `Whom do ye seek?'
Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
There are 693 "I am" verses in the Bible. They certainly aren't all about declaring I'm God.
The priests couldn't even find false witnesses but many of the priests soldiers have heared that so called blasphemey.
(http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/9743/iamr.gif)
Large image. (http://img814.imageshack.us/img814/9743/iamr.gif)
So what are you saying? :sigh:
I'm saying Jesus wasn't claiming He is God.
"The Jesus I am" just means "I am Jesus"
Who are you looking for? Jesus the Nazarene. I am Jesus.
The name of God isn't Jesus. The name of God is Jehova, Yaweh, YHWH. Depending the translation you prefer.
Are we talking about the two witnesses? I am boggeled in my mind. :sigh:
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 08:37:30 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 23, 2011, 08:29:12 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:36:13 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 23, 2011, 07:34:31 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 23, 2011, 07:25:52 PM
The priests can't be witnesses. They are the judges.
There are no witnesses against Jesus, only false witnesses.
He was without sin.
Inside, the leading priests and the entire high council were trying to find witnesses who would lie about Jesus, so they could put him to death. [Mat 26:59]
That is true but the Law was still in affect and it had to be followed
Deu 17:6 By the mouth of two witnesses or of three witnesses
They broke every law in the book, starting with the midnight trial. Who conducts a trial at midnight? Witches? Satanists?
But why don't you tell us the answer. :winkgrin:
FYI many trials in the US are during night. :winkgrin:
Like what? Civil servants don't even work until 5 o'clock. :mblush:
That's midnight here :laughing7:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2011, 09:32:04 AM
Are we talking about the two witnesses? I am boggeled in my mind. :sigh:
I hope so :winkgrin:
The way you bolded certain words in reply #12 (to me) it seem you implied that Jesus witnessed against Himself by directly stating the famous (and often abused imo) "I AM". Thereby stating He's God and condeming Himself. Afterall that was the (false) charge of the priests.
If you didn't imply that then ignore. If you did imply that then I disagree.
BTW comparing that verse with the Greek I must conclude most Bibles did a sloppy translation. I smell a doctrinal rat :winkgrin:
Now whether you can believe it or not, Jesus identified Himself by saying this;
Luk 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
Or Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Now Im not going to debate the "I AM" issue with or without a "he" or if in the Greek it is
I-Shall-Come-to-Be Jesus identified himself as the One they sought.
If not then who is the other witness?
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 24, 2011, 10:45:14 AM
Now whether you can believe it or not, Jesus identified Himself by saying this;
Isn't the topic about witnesses? Being a witness is something different that indentifying yourself. If you mean He indentified Himself as God then disagree. It simply isn't in that verse. If it is explain me where exactly.
QuoteLuk 22:48 But Jesus said unto him, Judas, betrayest thou the Son of man with a kiss?
Or Joh 18:5 they answered him, `Jesus the Nazarene;' Jesus saith to them, `I am he ;' --and Judas who delivered him up was standing with them; --
Now Im not going to debate the "I AM" issue with or without a "he" or if in the Greek it is
That's fine with me as long as you aren't using the verse as proof Jesus gave the priests any ground for accusing Him of blasphemy.
QuoteI-Shall-Come-to-Be Jesus identified himself as the One they sought.
If not then who is the other witness?
They simply asked "Are you Jesus?"
Jesus answered "I'm Jesus."
So yes, He indentified Himself as Jesus.
No, that wasn't witnessing against Himself.
Micah look at it this way. You are accused of murder. You are in the park feeding the ducks. Two police officer come to you and ask "Are you Micah?"
You answer "Yes I'm Micah."
You did indentify yourself. But you didn't admit the murder you were accused of.
Believe what you want, ww, but I find the reaction of the soldiers completely convincing of what they perceived. These are Roman soldiers. They don't back away and fall to the ground at a whim.
International Standard Version (©2008)
When Jesus told them, "I AM," they backed away and fell to the ground,
Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
They went backward, and fell to the ground - None of the other evangelists mentions this very important circumstance. Our Lord chose to give them this proof of his infinite power, that they might know that their power could not prevail against him if he chose to exert his might, seeing that the very breath of his mouth confounded, drove back, and struck them down to the earth. Thus by the blast of God they might have perished, and by the breath of his nostrils they might have been consumed: Job 4:9.
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
Believe what you want, ww,
No worries about that. I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine :winkgrin:
Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means?
Anyway, that's all besides the topic. It about what Jesus did or did not say.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
Believe what you want, ww,
No worries about that. I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine :winkgrin:
Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means?
Anyway, that's all besides the topic. It about what Jesus did or did not say.
QuoteI just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine :winkgrin:
So do I. And, I think the text makes it very clear what happened here.
QuoteWhy would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means
When you back away from something and fall to the ground--that tends to be a visceral reaction, not a cognitive one.
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 02:38:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 24, 2011, 02:01:04 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 24, 2011, 01:27:03 PM
Believe what you want, ww,
No worries about that. I just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine :winkgrin:
Why would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means?
Anyway, that's all besides the topic. It about what Jesus did or did not say.
QuoteI just make up my mind based on text not on doctrine :winkgrin:
So do I. And, I think the text makes it very clear what happened here.
Tell me what exactly happend there.
The topic is about a witness.
Did Jesus say anything that can be seen as witnessing? If yes; what?
QuoteQuoteWhy would Roman soldiers back away if they don't even know what "I AM" means
When you back away from something and fall to the ground--that tends to be a visceral reaction, not a cognitive one.
We will see. First my other questions.
So Judas took a detachment of soldiers and some officers from the high priests and the Pharisees and went there with lanterns, torches, and weapons.
Jesus fully realized all that was going to happen to him, so he stepped forward to meet them. "Who are you looking for?" he asked.
They answered him, "Jesus from Nazareth." Jesus said to them, "I AM." Judas, the man who betrayed him, was standing with them.
When Jesus told them, "I AM," they backed away and fell to the ground.
--John 18
This is what happens. Judas stands there giving silent witness as Jesus identifies [gives witness to] himself to the guards, who for some reason, upon hearing I AM, back away and fall to the ground.
However you want to characterize it, this is not normal behavior on the part of the guards. The guards by their behavior give another witness. Did the Holy Spirit knock them down? That's another witness.
They are, quite literally, blown back and blown over by his words.
It must have been quite dramatic to see.
I know because I've seen something similar [with the 3 muggers].
What's so special about "I am". Those are very common words.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 10:59:05 AM
What's so special about "I am". Those are very common words.
Those words are special when said by God to identify [give witness to] himself. When God told Moses, tell them I AM sent you, Moses didn't say, what's so special about those words.
Obviously, there was something special by the words combined with the way he said them--it's the combination that is special--as witnessed to by the reaction of the guards.
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
See reply #15
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
this is the one who came by water and blood-Jesus Christ.He did not come by water only,but by water and blood.
AND IT IS THE SPIRIT WHO TESTIFIES,BECAUSE THE SPIRIT IS THE TRUTH.FOR THERE ARE THREE THAT TESTIFY;THE SPIRIT,
THE WATER AND THE BLOOD;AND THE THREE ARE IN AGREEMENT.
WE ACCEPT MAN'S TESTIMONY,BUT GOD'S TESTIMONY IS GREATER,BECAUSE IT IS THE TESTIMONY OF GOD,
WHICH HE HAS GIVEN ABOUT HIS SON.....
AND THIS IS THE TESTIMONY;GOD HAS GIVEN US ETERNAL LIFE,AND THIS LIFE IS IN HIS SON. HE WHO HAS THE SON HAS LIFE
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
He replied, "I Am" according to the Greek I'm looking at.
Jesus G2424
Iēsous saith G3004
legō unto them,G846
autos I G1473 egō am G1510 eimi he. [added by translator]
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 25, 2011, 06:20:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.
Micah you don't have to know Greek to figure this one out. Just use your Bible software and look at a Greek text. Click on the Strong numbers and you will find G2424=Iēsous=Jesus twice. That should be a little hint.
Beautiful post,Micah
I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE
IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 05:54:20 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
He replied, "I Am" according to the Greek I'm looking at.
Jesus G2424 Iēsous saith G3004 legō unto them,G846 autos I G1473 egō am G1510 eimi he. [added by translator]
Another Greek translation:
(http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7562/john185.gif)
Click here for a larger image (http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7562/john185.gif)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 06:38:01 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 25, 2011, 06:20:19 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 05:38:21 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 02:03:52 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 12:23:41 PM
But Jesus didn't reply "I AM (he)"
He replied "The Jesus I am"
According to whom?
According to the Greek text. See reply #15
Micah you don't have to know Greek to figure this one out. Just use your Bible software and look at a Greek text. Click on the Strong numbers and you will find G2424=Iēsous=Jesus twice. That should be a little hint.
I do not understand the Greek as you do, in fact I understand it very little compared to you and others. Yet I do know this, that all the knowledge of the Greek letters and what Greek means in English cannot interpret the Spirit. Here we have standing in the garden being delivered over, (the Fathers Will be done) the Son of God, the very essence of the Father and when Jesus spoke I AM, those men who were there to take Jesus were very fortunate they were laid back just to the ground.
:happyclap:
Quote from: sheila on August 25, 2011, 06:43:47 PM
Beautiful post,Micah
I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE
IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]
GLORY TO THE LORD :grin:
Quote from: sheila on August 25, 2011, 06:43:47 PM
Beautiful post,Micah
I beleive Father and Son were showing..that no man was taking His life from him..but that HE WAS LAYING IT DOWN WILLINGLY IN ORDER TO TAKE
IT BACK UP AGAIN[they were laid down unwillingly at His testimony]
Exactly. :thumbsup:
Also, John is the gospel writer who is most concerned with the identity of Jesus, starting with John 1:1.
1Co 1:22 Seeing that both, Jews for signs, do ask, and, Greeks for wisdom, do seek,
1Co 1:23 Whereas, we, proclaim a Christ who hath been crucified,—unto Jews, indeed, an occasion of stumbling, and, unto Gentiles, foolishness;
1Co 1:24 But, unto the called themselves—both Jews and Greeks, Christ, God's power, and, God's wisdom.
2Ti 3:7 always learning, and never to a knowledge of truth able to come,
2Ti 3:8 and, even as Jannes and Jambres stood against Moses, so also these do stand against the truth, men corrupted in mind, disapproved concerning the faith;
2Ti 3:9 but they shall not advance any further, for their folly shall be manifest to all, as theirs also did become.
ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6. Also, what text are you using?
Joh 18:6 As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476
This is rich. See how much you can glean from this;
The Jews carried stones again, so that they might stone Him, Yesu responded to them, "I have shown you many ideal works from the Father; because of which of these works are you going to stone Me?" The Jews responded to Him, "We aren't going to stone you for an ideal act, but for slandering; and because you, who are a human, make yourself out to be God. Yesu responded to them, "Hasn't it been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'? If he said those were gods, to whom God's Word came (and the Writing can't be annulled), are you saying to the One whom the Father has purified and dispatched into the world, 'You are slandering,' because I said 'I am God's Son'?. If I'm not doing my Father's works, you must stop believing me; yet if I am doing them, even if you don't believe Me, you must be believing the works, so that you might know and be continually believing that the Father is in union with Me, and I am in union with the Father:" ....He went away out of their hands. John 10:31 onward, Christian Bible
then Simeon blessed him,and said to his mother,' THIS CHILD IS DESTINED TO CAUSE THE RISING AND FALLING OF MANY IN ISRAEL.....
AND WILL BE A SIGN THAT WILL BE SPOKEN AGAINST,SO THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS WILL BE REVEALED."
CHRIST,GOD'S POWER[SIGN] AND WISDOM[KNOWLEDGE]
29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:
30For mine eyes have seen [thy salvation] Y'shuah,
[Lk 2]
what do you guys think the sign of the son of man is?
I think it's the lamb and/or the lion.
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6
Joh 18:6 As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476.
The first quote:http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
Same rendering in:
-BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 27h Edition. Copyright (c) 1993 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.
-TIS/TIM
These versions contain the Tischendorf NT 8th Edition with morphological tags:
Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874) GNT 8th Edition, 1869-1872.
The text is the result of the joint work of Clink Yale and Ulrik Petersen. For details see http://ulrikp.org/Tischendorf.
That and they is missing from your text.
QuoteAlso, what text are you using
The first quote: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
The second quote: The Greek New Testament according to the Byzantine Textform, edited by Maurice A.Robinson and William G. Pierpont, 2000 edition This is the edition by Pierpont and Robinson of a Majority, or Byzantine,text of the NT.
Just checked KJV-1611 and KJV-1759
In Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM is all in caps.
But in John 18:5-6 there are no caps.
"I am" instead of "I AM"
"he" instead of "He" or "HE"
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6
Joh 18:6 As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476.
The first quote:http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
Same rendering in:
-BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 27h Edition. Copyright (c) 1993 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.
-TIS/TIM
These versions contain the Tischendorf NT 8th Edition with morphological tags:
Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874) GNT 8th Edition, 1869-1872.
The text is the result of the joint work of Clink Yale and Ulrik Petersen. For details see http://ulrikp.org/Tischendorf.
That and they is missing from your text.
QuoteAlso, what text are you using
The first quote: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
The second quote: The Greek New Testament according to the Byzantine Textform, edited by Maurice A.Robinson and William G. Pierpont, 2000 edition This is the edition by Pierpont and Robinson of a Majority, or Byzantine,text of the NT.
Just checked KJV-1611 and KJV-1759
In Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM is all in caps.
But in John 18:5-6 there are no caps.
"I am" instead of "I AM"
"he" instead of "He" or "HE"
18:6 ws
hOs
G5613
Adv
ASoun
oun
G3767
Conj
THENeipen
eipen
G2036
vi 2Aor Act 3 Sg
He-saidautois
autois
G846
pp Dat Pl m
to-them
oti
hoti
G3754
Conj
thategw
egO
G1473
pp 1 Nom Sg
Ieimi
eimi
G1510
vi Pres vxx 1 Sg
AMaphlqon
apElthon
G565
vi 2Aor Act 3 Pl
THEY-FROM-CAME
they-droppedeis
eis
G1519
Prep
INTOta
ta
G3588
t_ Acc Pl n
THE
the(p)
From your own text, ww--John 18:6--as soon as he said to them I AM, they...
As soon then as he had said
unto them, I am , they went
backward, and fell to the
ground
From your own text it is him saying 'I AM' that causes the reaction in the guards.
No Molly you should apply the basic rules of English.
Jesus said "the Jesus I am"
The "I'm" is just a quote from that verse.
Q: Are you Jesus the Nazarene?
A: Yes I 'm
That's it. Nothing more nothing less.
What those soldiers heared, saw, smelled or saw is of zero importance for this topic. Jesus wasn't witnessing against Himself.
What do you think "that" is refrencing to? It refrences to verse 5.
Suprise Peter is another I am he :winkgrin:
Acts 10 [ACV]
21 And having gone down to the men, Peter said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek. What is the cause for which ye are here?
Better luck next time Molly :laughing7:
Luk 22:48 "Judas," said Jesus, "are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
Id say that was Jesus identifying Himself.
As for the men being knocked backward to the ground in John by the Voice of Jesus speaking, I guess you have to be a believer in the Word of God, through faith to understand and except that.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 25, 2011, 09:21:54 PM
Quote from: Molly on August 25, 2011, 07:17:01 PM
ww, show me the Greek you have for John 18:6
Joh 18:6 As soon then asG5613 G3767 he had saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 [he], they wentG565 backward,G1519 G3694 andG2532 fellG4098 to the ground.G5476.
The first quote:http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
Same rendering in:
-BNT - Novum Testamentum Graece, Nestle-Aland 27h Edition. Copyright (c) 1993 Deutsch Bibelgesellschaft, Stuttgart.
-TIS/TIM
These versions contain the Tischendorf NT 8th Edition with morphological tags:
Lobegott Friedrich Konstantin von Tischendorf (1815-1874) GNT 8th Edition, 1869-1872.
The text is the result of the joint work of Clink Yale and Ulrik Petersen. For details see http://ulrikp.org/Tischendorf.
That and they is missing from your text.
QuoteAlso, what text are you using
The first quote: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/joh18.pdf
The second quote: The Greek New Testament according to the Byzantine Textform, edited by Maurice A.Robinson and William G. Pierpont, 2000 edition This is the edition by Pierpont and Robinson of a Majority, or Byzantine,text of the NT.
Just checked KJV-1611 and KJV-1759
In Exodus 3:14 I AM THAT I AM is all in caps.
But in John 18:5-6 there are no caps.
"I am" instead of "I AM"
"he" instead of "He" or "HE"
Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that
I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isaiah 43:25
I, even
I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
These words of Isiah are not in all caps wings.
Isiah is a mighty prophet who prophecied the coming of the messiah. When Jesus began his ministry he quoted from the book of Isiah.
Isaiah 48:12
Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Isaiah 52:6
Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I.
John 8:24
I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
John 9:9
Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
Revelation 1:18
I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Luke 24:39
Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Much of the latter conversation here is a great example of how we, as human, can get so caught up in our vernacular and definition searching, that we miss the power of the Word being given. The incident happening was huge. I think some have tried to share that but they've kinda gotten pushed aside with the scrimmaging of word usages. The words used are merely signs pointing somewhere else. That's both the beauty and the frustration of spiritual truth. The message isn't about the guards realizing who Jesus was . . .the message is about the fact that at any given second, the Holy Spirit could have led Jesus out of that display of men's power and might.
Those guards were slain in the spirit. They didn't recognize the "I am" and decide to give him space . . .Jesus proclaimed who he was and the Spirit in him backed up his words with an exclamation point. I don't understand why sparring over a word missing or a definition missed would be more important than the spiritual message lying within the whole story. It was a turning point in Jesus' entire ministry. It was the beginning of sorrows, it was the last nail the religious leaders of a great nation were putting in their own coffin.
I know I'll probably stir up some emotions by saying that, but this is a good place to remind ourselves not to lose sight of the forest in spite of the trees. Which carries a greater significance, that we walk away with more knowledge (in which in the sparring isn't even a guarantee) or that we embrace the spiritual truth of it? The truth for me is, those boys didn't know what hit them. And God wanted the world to know it, that's why he had it recorded. The same spirit that was in Jesus and protected him to the end of his earthly purpose, is the same spirit that's in us, protecting us, leading us, embracing us . . .. in spite of us. When's the last time any of "us" had someone approach us in religious rage, only for the Spirit in us to knock them out?
"The message isn't about the guards realizing who Jesus was . . .the message is about the fact that at any given second, the Holy Spirit could have led Jesus out of that display of men's power and might. "
Now WHY would the Holy Spirit have any desire to that?
I know.... but we are very close to the post topic tho!
the mouth of two or three witnesses is about convicting someone of a capital crime(death sentence). The priests arrested Jesus for charges they could not prove even though they brought "many false witnesses against him"(Mt 26). Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true". The Father bore witness to the Son on many occasions, by the works he did through him and at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration. If God testifies on your behalf, you need no other witness ;o)
It is interesting in how we assume that it was the words Jesus spoke, as opposed to the power in His voice as the Father was bearing witness on behalf of his son against those who sought to discredit him. Since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself", there may have been other times as well when Jesus spoke and they felt the power of the Father in Him.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 26, 2011, 06:28:16 AM
the mouth of two or three witnesses is about convicting someone of a capital crime(death sentence). The priests arrested Jesus for charges they could not prove even though they brought "many false witnesses against him"(Mt 26). Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true". The Father bore witness to the Son on many occasions, by the works he did through him and at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration. If God testifies on your behalf, you need no other witness ;o)
It is interesting in how we assume that it was the words Jesus spoke, as opposed to the power in His voice as the Father was bearing witness on behalf of his son against those who sought to discredit him. Since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself", there may have been other times as well when Jesus spoke and they felt the power of the Father in Him.
Not if He had to fulfill the Law.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 26, 2011, 12:21:41 AM
Luk 22:48 "Judas," said Jesus, "are you betraying the Son of Man with a kiss?"
Id say that was Jesus identifying Himself.
As for the men being knocked backward to the ground in John by the Voice of Jesus speaking, I guess you have to be a believer in the Word of God, through faith to understand and except that.
:LH:
While not claiming anything like being a superior believer it occurs to me that I'm the one that believes what written. I want all words found in the Greek text be part of the verse/conversation.
As for Luke 22:48.... well prove it to me. No calling yourself son of man isn't anythng of use to your cause. Things should be placed in a cultural context. During that time there where many people who called themself messiah, teacher, son of man, etc.
There were all sorts of sects at that time. They had names like The sons of the Light. That includes the Temple priests.
In a written Bible it all seems so special. Son of Man with caps. In a spoken language you don't see caps. So placed in that cultural context the words of Jesus were not that special. In the whole NT (except Revelations) Jesus is answering all questions with a question or words 'you say so'. Never anything directly.
So His final hours had come. He was arrested. And still no direct answers. Weird for someone that was supposed witnessed against Himself half an hour ago. If those soldiers were so impressed by Jesus why they didn't ran away instead of arrest Him?
Before you start using your below the belt remarks again: Yes Jesus was THE Son of Man. He was teh Messaih. He was everything the OT is about (note the caps).
There is a difference between being someone and testifying against yourself.
Quote from: Nathan on August 26, 2011, 02:56:45 AM
Much of the latter conversation here is a great example of how we, as human, can get so caught up in our vernacular and definition searching, that we miss the power of the Word being given. The incident happening was huge.
Really I agree with all of that.
But look it from another angle.
If I believe I want to base it on something real. On the original text placed in the original context, in the original culture.
2000 years of sweeping things under the carpet has past. If the written text doesn't fit one's idea's just look at it spiritually. Well that brought a church of great unity and agreement....
Many (on this forum) reject apocalyptical writings because they believe those writings are not divinely inspired. I can accept that view. What I don't accept, and simply refuse to be part of, is
notsetting the same high standards for the translations (by looking at the original text)
All I'm doing in this thread is reading the verse. To my best capabilities I'm neither adding or taking away from the verse.
:2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 26, 2011, 06:40:23 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 26, 2011, 06:28:16 AM
the mouth of two or three witnesses is about convicting someone of a capital crime(death sentence). The priests arrested Jesus for charges they could not prove even though they brought "many false witnesses against him"(Mt 26). Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true". The Father bore witness to the Son on many occasions, by the works he did through him and at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration. If God testifies on your behalf, you need no other witness ;o)
It is interesting in how we assume that it was the words Jesus spoke, as opposed to the power in His voice as the Father was bearing witness on behalf of his son against those who sought to discredit him. Since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself", there may have been other times as well when Jesus spoke and they felt the power of the Father in Him.
Not if He had to fulfill the Law.
I may be misunderstanding your point, but IMO Jesus did not have to testify for himself or against himself to fulfill the law. The Pharisees broke the law in killing him tho- they never found two witnesses against him for any capital offence, who were not false witnesses.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 26, 2011, 12:00:48 AM
No Molly you should apply the basic rules of English.
Jesus said "the Jesus I am"
The "I'm" is just a quote from that verse.
Q: Are you Jesus the Nazarene?
A: Yes I 'm
That's it. Nothing more nothing less.
What those soldiers heared, saw, smelled or saw is of zero importance for this topic. Jesus wasn't witnessing against Himself.
What do you think "that" is refrencing to? It refrences to verse 5.
Suprise Peter is another I am he :winkgrin:
Acts 10 [ACV]
21 And having gone down to the men, Peter said, Behold, I am he whom ye seek. What is the cause for which ye are here?
Better luck next time Molly :laughing7:
Suit yourself, ww. English is my native language so I won't argue basic English rules with you. Especially since you seem to know them better than I do.
But, as others have pointed out, it is not just the words 'I AM' that provide the proof here. It is the reaction of the guards. You could say, 'I think, therefore, I AM,' all day long and no one would ever fall down at your feet. :winkgrin:
I understand your reasoning,WW,really. And it is true that better understanding comes by doing this...BUT THE PERFECT UNDERSTANDING IS IN CHRIST...for instance
in His TRANSLATION..BOTH THE LAW AND PROPHETS ARE PERFECTED/GLORIFIED Father said,"I WILL NOT GIVE MY GLORY UNTO ANOTHER" JESUS I AM" Was
given an exalted name above all others..due to being obediant unto death[law perfected] OF WHICH HE WAS ON THE VERY BRINK OF LAYING DOWN
HIS LIFE WILLINGLY IN OBEDIANCE TO FATHER...
In the New Jerusalem they have 'both' the name of God and Jesus. when we receive our new name..it will HAVE A NEW NAME TOO THAT CONTAINS BOTH
JESUS AND FATHER
so YESHUA[God saves,I AM}? don't know :dontknow: maybe that will be all our last names in the family of God
Only if we are who we are. That's the secret of overcoming. Being transformed into the image of the one who was the radiance of the Fathers glory and the express image(icon) of his nature...... If you have seen me you have seen the Father.(YHWH- I AM That I AM)... Having seen him(if we have) we will be like him.... For we all with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image, by the Spirit, who is the Lord.
Quote from: eaglesway on August 26, 2011, 07:18:47 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 26, 2011, 06:40:23 AM
Quote from: eaglesway on August 26, 2011, 06:28:16 AM
the mouth of two or three witnesses is about convicting someone of a capital crime(death sentence). The priests arrested Jesus for charges they could not prove even though they brought "many false witnesses against him"(Mt 26). Jesus said, "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true". The Father bore witness to the Son on many occasions, by the works he did through him and at his baptism and on the mount of transfiguration. If God testifies on your behalf, you need no other witness ;o)
It is interesting in how we assume that it was the words Jesus spoke, as opposed to the power in His voice as the Father was bearing witness on behalf of his son against those who sought to discredit him. Since "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself", there may have been other times as well when Jesus spoke and they felt the power of the Father in Him.
Not if He had to fulfill the Law.
I may be misunderstanding your point, but IMO Jesus did not have to testify for himself or against himself to fulfill the law. The Pharisees broke the law in killing him tho- they never found two witnesses against him for any capital offence, who were not false witnesses.
I have been following this thread but I don't understand exactly what is being said. I will present the following scripture which may disappoint many of you, but this is what I have found.
58But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.
59Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council,
sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;
60But found
none: yea,
though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,
61And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
62And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?
63But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;
what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy. 66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
67Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
68Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?
So to me the arresting in the garden was done with the hope that he would be brought to trial and convicted by the council. Unlike previous times of accusations, Jesus allowed them to arrest him, since it was his time to die for the people. He now put his life in Gods hands.
The scripture I gave shows the false witnesses are the whole council who witnessed Jesus saying he will return at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven. They now have an occasion against him of blasphemy, where he being a man makest himself God.
They say what need we have of further witnesses. So here is the law fulfilled at this trial.
In the garden there was no trial, just an arrest. This council took place after the garden. So if Judas and Jesus are the 2 witnesess why are they not brought to trial to testify what was said in the garden, or why is there a further trial, if they were already tried in the garden?
But the text shows that they sought many false witnesses but found none.
Quote from: TT64Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
65Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.
66What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.
Hi, TT. Glad you brought this up. They can't find any witnesses, just false witnesses. But, then Jesus says something and the high priest tears his clothes. What need do they have of witnesses now? He has just told them he is the cloud rider of Daniel 7, and they all know it.
13 "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man,
coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. 14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
[Dan 7]
Blasphemy is just a word religious leaders use when their authority is challenged :laughing7:
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 28, 2011, 06:43:29 AM
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him.
Lord Jesus, I love you. What you endured for me.
Since there has been a great deal of flack as to my saying that Jesus and Judas were the two witnesses, I know longer will say on this subject. I must thank you all for your contributions and May the Lord bless.
Aflack! :happy3:
Quote from: eaglesway on August 28, 2011, 06:35:51 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on August 28, 2011, 06:43:29 AM
Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. Others slapped him.
Lord Jesus, I love you. What you endured for me.
He endured All flesh!
Amen and alleluia!
That was His purpose and goal!
Amen! And if we are among His sons, we share that purpose and goal!
"For this reason He is not ashamed to call us ....brethren!"
All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 02, 2011, 04:53:24 AM
Since there has been a great deal of flack as to my saying that Jesus and Judas were the two witnesses, I know longer will say on this subject. I must thank you all for your contributions and May the Lord bless.
Could that be said as Christ in God and Christ in the Flesh?
The One Who gives Redemption and the One Who receives?
The Hope of Glory!
...and HOPE purifies!
Amen, Thank You Father!
Faith, counts you worthy.
Hope purifies.
And Love — TRANSCENDS!
That's Peter, James and John at the mount of transfiguration!
Faith and Hope witnessed the Love!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 02, 2011, 04:53:24 AM
Since there has been a great deal of flack as to my saying that Jesus and Judas were the two witnesses, I know longer will say on this subject. I must thank you all for your contributions and May the Lord bless.
Many will deny the Lord and fewer will attest.
Judas is the city of many.
Christ is One.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 09, 2011, 02:35:41 AM
Amen, Thank You Father!
Faith, counts you worthy.
Hope purifies.
And Love — TRANSCENDS!
GLORY TO GOD! AMEN!
Quote from: eaglesway on October 09, 2011, 06:32:38 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 09, 2011, 02:35:41 AM
Amen, Thank You Father!
Faith, counts you worthy.
Hope purifies.
And Love — TRANSCENDS!
GLORY TO GOD! AMEN!
Three things will last forever--faith, hope, and love--and the greatest of these is love. [1 Cor 13:13]