Died In My Stead?

[Molly]

Micah asked --if he died in our stead, then why do we still die?[physically]

I think it's because we are born out of due time [early birth].  We are meant for another age when we will be completely redeemed.  But, being firstfruits, we have to wait for the next age to receive the whole inheritance--namely, as Paul says, the redemption of the body.

[Molly]

Does it not mean more a stake or post? I do not find staff as something for punishment or crucifiction, course it may be just me.

I don't think it does.  I don't know what ww is talking about lol.

Other than the obvious means of crucifixion, it can imply self denial.  But, the meaning of self denial is something else to be discussed.

[micah7:9]

Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
   
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

[WhiteWings]

Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.

A bit of common sense (no pun intended!) goes a long way too.
Today take up your cross has a powerful (symbolic) meaning. A cross is a sign of Christianity. etc etc
But when Jesus spoke those words He wasn't crucified yet. Only He knew the was gonna happen.
His followers were Jews would believed He was promised Messiah that was gonna wipe out all their enemies. Not die on the cross like a criminal...
Besides of that a cross was to heavy to carry. I was a Roman thing, not Jewish. And if it had a religious meaning it was pagan.
It signifies the rebirth of the sun.

To recap:
- The symbolic meaning of the cross wasn't established yet.
- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

BTW Jesus wasn't nailed to a cross like we see in church. But that's a whole other (old) topic. :winkgrin:

[jabcat]

micah, i accidentally "modified" your post by accident, trying to make this one.  sorry, i didn't actually change anything.   :mblush:

Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
   
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Well, it occurs to me that words (such as in the song, "died in my stead") can be picked at, rather than looking at what was meant (I do it, most of us do.  Sometimes useful, maybe sometimes not).  Stead means "The place or role that someone or something should have or fill".  The song says "Jesus chose the road to Calvary to die in my stead".    Before His death, it was our stead to "die in our trespasses and sins".  But He took those [the consequences of those] inSTEAD.  He took those sins on Himself and died with them on Him - inSTEAD of us.  He settled the debt for us, so we wouldn't be eternally dead [or eternally "without hope"].  IN THAT SENSE (which I happen to believe the song may be talking about in the first place), I think it reasonable to draw that connection.  Of course we still have to die (most of us believe) physically - unless we're alive when He comes again to begin the next age.  And after being born again, with the process of sanctification we die daily [spiritually].  But I'll say that's not what the song is talking about.  It nowhere says "we don't have to physically or die", or "we don't have to be sanctified, set apart, i.e., "die daily" - it's talking about our salvation, what Jesus did to secure that - because we couldn't!

So...............maybe it depends on what one means when they say "Jesus died in my stead".   Can the "non-steaders"  :laughing7: see that view at all, or do you insist it has to be the other way?  (If so, you can see it that way, but I also can see the other connections).    :2c:

[micah7:9]

"- The real cross was way to heavy to carry. John was a real follower of Jesus. Do you think he took a 300 pound cross and walked to Patmos? :winkgrin:"

My friend you miss the whole meaning of take up your cross( the heaviness of warding off the powers that desire one to fall) it is not about the weight of an object such as a cross, or stump or what ever. It does not imply a physical thing.

[micah7:9]

micah, i accidentally "modified" your post by accident, trying to make this one.  sorry, i didn't actually change anything.   :mblush:

Should Jesus have died on the cross "instead" of us, then one has to ask why do we still have to die? Jesus died "for" us. For our sins, He was the Lamb without spot or blemish.

Heb 9:27  and as it is laid up to men once to die, and after this--judgment,
   
Jesus died on the cross as a lamb without blemish, this was the sacrifce that was to be offered. He died for our sins, not instead. We all must die, Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Well, it occurs to me that words (such as in the song, "died in my stead") can be picked at, rather than looking at what was meant (I do it, most of us do.  Sometimes useful, maybe sometimes not).  Stead means "The place or role that someone or something should have or fill".  The song says "Jesus chose the road to Calvary to die in my stead".    Before His death, it was our stead to "die in our trespasses and sins".  But He took those [the consequences of those] inSTEAD.  He took those sins on Himself and died with them on Him - inSTEAD of us.  He settled the debt for us, so we wouldn't be eternally dead [or eternally "without hope"].  IN THAT SENSE (which I happen to believe the song may be talking about in the first place), I think it reasonable to draw that connection.  Of course we still have to die (most of us believe) physically - unless we're alive when He comes again to begin the next age.  And after being born again, with the process of sanctification we die daily [spiritually].  But I'll say that's not what the song is talking about.  It nowhere says "we don't have to physically or die", or "we don't have to be sanctified, set apart, i.e., "die daily" - it's talking about our salvation, what Jesus did to secure that - because we couldn't!

So...............maybe it depends on what one means when they say "Jesus died in my stead".   Can the "non-steaders"  :laughing7: see that view at all, or do you insist it has to be the other way?  (If so, you can see it that way, but I also can see the other connections).    :2c:

A religious song may be sung or wrote with such words for mans acceptance but that does not make it so. Remember man is writing songs to make man feel good. You may believe in the rapture or not, do you believe that the words in "Ill Fly Away" is a song that bears a truth of the Word?

[Molly]

Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.

Here's what e-sword says:

G4716
σταυρός
stauros
stow-ros'
From the base of G2476; a stake or post (as set upright), that is, (specifically) a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively exposure to death, that is, self denial; by implication the atonement of Christ: - cross.

Interestingly, it comes from the base of this important word.

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.


Histemi is used in this verse:

Rom 5:2 By 1223 whom 3739 also 2532 we have 2192 access 4318 by faith 4102 into 1519 this 5026 grace 5485 wherein 1722 3739 we stand2476 , and 2532 rejoice 2744 in 1909 hope 1680 of the glory 1391 of God 2316.

[micah7:9]

Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.

[Molly]

Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.

He died so that we could live.

who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

--1Thess 5:10

[WhiteWings]

Where does it read that Jesus died in my stead, or He died in stead of me? He died, He was the lamb without blemish, as we are told that was the sacrifice needed. He gave up His life because of love.

The whole point of animal (sheep/goat) sacrifice was to cover sins. And the Lamb sacrifice took sin away.
The wages of sin is death.
If sin is taken away humanity is no longer recieving their wages (death).

[WhiteWings]

Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.

Here's what e-sword says:

"The Greek word stauros means staff, stake , pole, or beam, corresponding to the Hebrew word nas, which the serpent Nehushtan was lifted up with in the desert (John 3:14, Numbers 2:19; 2 Kings 18:4)." (Lew White, Fossilized Customs, 8th ed., p.114).

http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html

[jabcat]

We were going to physically die and stay dead, meaning you were taking the consequences ["wages", quote WW] of sin to the grave with us.  InSTEAD, Jesus took those sins upon Himself and legally paid the price - inSTEAD of you or me having to.  That's how I'm seeing it.  I'm not saying we don't have to ever physically die, or figuratively/spiritually die daily.  That would be "the serpent's lie", IMO.  But that's not what I'm saying, or necessarily believe the song is saying.   He died, to pay the eternal price for sin, inSTEAD of you and me .  So I'm just seeing that He died the death of the criminal, in our stead.  Otherwise, we'd still owe the sin debt, which He has taken off our account.   :bigGrin:     After all this, bottom line, right?

"Believe on the Lord Jesus.  If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.  !!!  :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

Yeah, I'm interested in that staff.  A shepherd's staff was mostly gentle.  Used to pull, gently prod - to lead.   It would also follow that "kings and priests" shepherding the nations might carry a staff.    (Not to do away with sanctification, spiritually dying daily.)   Wondering more though what Jesus meant.  Again, I maintain He was speaking at the time to a man and a people (Israel) still under the old covenant (not that there aren't spiritual principles for us).  Just sayin', rightly divide, and there may be more to be discovered.

[jabcat]

Maybe we need to see what everyone means by their terms - starting with die and live.

What are we saying the serpent meant by live and die?  Jesus, as in "will never die", "I am the way, the truth, and the life"?  Is it possible they mean different and/or multiple things?  Maybe we're talking "around/by" each other, with different definitions of terms in our heads. 

:eyebrow:

[micah7:9]

Stauros is a "general word"
Means something like stake, stick, staff.

Here's what e-sword says:

"The Greek word stauros means staff, stake , pole, or beam, corresponding to the Hebrew word nas, which the serpent Nehushtan was lifted up with in the desert (John 3:14, Numbers 2:19; 2 Kings 18:4)." (Lew White, Fossilized Customs, 8th ed., p.114).

http://www.yaim.org/web/literature/other-topics/163-didyahshuadieonacross.html

It is difficult for to picture one crucified on a staff? I will not debate, perhaps a staff is stable enough to hold a human being, but then I have no idea what the implement was that Jesus was nailed to. I do know what He was hung  with His hands and feet nailed, I can understand an upright post or stake, I am not seeing a staff.
G4464  rhabdos  a stick or wand (as a cudgel, a cane or a baton of royalty): - rod, sceptre, staff.

[WhiteWings]

It is difficult for to picture one crucified on a staff?

Agreed. A staff much like a broomstick. It will break. You can't even drive a nail into it.

Stauros is a multi purpose word with many meanings. From smal thing sticks to huge tree like things. Even the wooden poles/piles old houses have under their foundation.
I think Jesus was nailed to a (Olive) tree. (remember Jesus was nailed to green tree)
I think this goes way off-topic. Better continue here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/church_removes_cross_to_be_more_inclusive_8301.msg98233.html#msg98233

[WhiteWings]

Maybe we need to see what everyone means by their terms - starting with die and live.

What are we saying the serpent meant by live and die?  Jesus, as in "will never die", "I am the way, the truth, and the life"?  Is it possible they mean different and/or multiple things?  Maybe we're talking "around/by" each other, with different definitions of terms in our heads. 

:eyebrow:

The serpent and God used the word die. So Adam and Eve must have known the concept death. Did they only know the concept from animals around them? What kind of death the serpent spoke about? Body? Spirit?

[micah7:9]

How did they know the concept of dying? By what animals dying? I do not believe in has anything to do with body or spirit.

[WhiteWings]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

[Beloved Servant]

Now, as far as "the mystery";  this is an honest question.  Does it say somewhere specifically, regarding that particular passage or concept, that it's a mystery?  Because I understand it to mean that He took the consequences/result of our sin.  Thus at least in part, how His death and resurrection brought us salvation and life.  Legal sin debt  paid, not eternally dead, to return to, and remain, dust.

Shown below, Micah pointed it out last night, just moments before your post above.

Yes and the old man is dead.
Gal 5:24  and those who are Christ's, the flesh did crucify with the affections, and the desires;

And continues with Galatians 2:20;
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me.
The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

We are dead, as Elwin Roach wrote, "Why seek ye the living amongest the dead?" the old man is dead, we die dayliy  as is said in Gen 2:17  and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'

Rom 7:17  and now it is no longer I that work it, but the sin dwelling in me,
Rom 7:18  for I have known that there doth not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh, good: for to will is present with me, and to work that which is right I do not find,
Rom 7:19  for the good that I will, I do not; but the evil that I do not will, this I practise.

And amen Micah.
Lord please, heal my heart.

[sheila]

    I think the 'son of God' in us,,[the very image of the Father],,is put to death[crucified] in us...when..the man of sin in us lives[image of corruptible]...

   bearing our sins on the cross...He died in our stead...and was raised up out of death[Jordan/descend] to show us that the 'SON OF GOD" in us

   LIVES. 'come forth of the grave'..WHEN MAN OF SIN IN US IS PUT TO DEATH[become 'sin']

    we being told to crucify our flesh..in respect to wickedness[man of sin] so that 'CHRIST" or SON OF GOD May LIVE IN US


      the Baptism in the Jordan in symbol of repentance...the Holy spirit descends...and Father announces 'THIS IS MY SON'....we received a 'token'

   at this time of the Holy spirit...to walk in the way of righteousness..until the full redemption...when the man of sin[this body of death] is done away with at the breath

  of HIS COMING[ resurrection/revealing of sons of God]

   

[Beloved Servant]

farewell
Oh well,
goodbye, don't cry:


                            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxMnr0pM78U

[micah7:9]

Suppose they didn't know what death was.
The serpent says eat from the tree because you won't die.
Then Eve just starts eating instead of asking "what does die mean?"

The woman had already disobeyed when she saw  Gen 3:6  And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise...

Also the way it reads the woman never received the order, so if that is true she had no reason to ask.