Falling away compared to what?

[CHB]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

[Molly]

Maybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...

So what might the translation be?


Eli,G2241 Eli,G2241 lamaG2982 sabachthani?G4518 that is to say,G5123 MyG3450 God,G2316 myG3450 God,G2316 whyG2444 hast thou forsakenG1459 me?G3165


"forsaken" [me]

G4518
σαβαχθανί
sabachthani
sab-akh-than-ee'
Of Chaldee origin [H7662] with pronominal suffix; thou hast left me; sabachthani (that is, shebakthani), a cry of distress: - sabachthani.


G1459
ἐγκαταλείπω
egkataleipō
eng-kat-al-i'-po
From G1722 and G2641; to leave behind in some place, that is, (in a good sense) let remain over, or (in a bad one) to desert: - forsake, leave.

[Molly]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

Sometimes when you post others have posted while you are writing your post.  If so, it will not record your post unless you hit post button twice because it wants to give you a chance to respond to a new message.  So when you post, you just have to make sure that it took your post, otherwise red language will come up warning you that others have responded and do you still want to post that?

[Taffy]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX  :dontknow:

[Molly]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX  :dontknow:

They weren't deleted.  They probably just never posted.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...

So what might the translation be?

Spared.

..... this is what you spared me for.

or

..... this is my life's purpose.

[Molly]

Maybe that transaltion isn't entirely correct...

So what might the translation be?

Spared.

..... this is what you spared me for.

or

..... this is my life's purpose.

Where do you get that?

[WhiteWings]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

Sometimes when you post others have posted while you are writing your post.  If so, it will not record your post unless you hit post button twice because it wants to give you a chance to respond to a new message.  So when you post, you just have to make sure that it took your post, otherwise red language will come up warning you that others have responded and do you still want to post that?

The red warning can be switched off.

[WhiteWings]

Maybe that translation isn't entirely correct...

So what might the translation be?

Spared.

..... this is what you spared me for.

or

..... this is my life's purpose.

Where do you get that?

Lamsa.

http://www.lamsabible.com/
http://www.therefinersfire.org/forsaken_me.htm
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread670002/pg1

Just Google for: why have you forsaken me wrong translation
or
why have you forsaken me lamsa
I find it  a logical translation.

It was His life's purpose.
He knew why He  was there.
I doubt God abandoned Him.

[Molly]

Maybe that translation isn't entirely correct...

So what might the translation be?

Spared.

..... this is what you spared me for.

or

..... this is my life's purpose.

Where do you get that?

Lamsa.

http://www.lamsabible.com/
http://www.therefinersfire.org/forsaken_me.htm
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread670002/pg1

Just Google for: why have you forsaken me wrong translation
or
why have you forsaken me lamsa
I find it  a logical translation.

It was His life's purpose.
He knew why He  was there.
I doubt God abandoned Him.

But the King James gives the aramaic word, sabachthani, and defines it as, forsaken.

Forsaken makes sense to me.

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani. This is regarded by more conservative scholars as a quotation in Aramaic of the opening of Psalm 22, which in English is "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" This is similar to how the psalm appears in the Aramaic Pecrapta Old Testament and it appears in earlier Aramaic Targums.


Aramaic grammars and dictionaries,[5] disagree with Lamsa's assertion about Jesus' last words, as the word שבקתני [shvaqtani] in Aramaic is the perfect 2nd person singular form of the verb שבק [shvaq] which means "to leave, to leave s.t. left over, to abandon," or "to permit"[6] with the 1st person singular pronoun affixed. This would, in turn, cause the phrase to translate as "why have you left me?" "why have you let me be?" "why have you abandoned me?"
--Wikipedia

[WhiteWings]

I know all that Molly.
BTW it's not so certain anymore the NT was written in Aramaic. Likely it was written in real Hebrew.

[Nathan]

WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie?

That question is proof you literal understanding need some improvement.
Find one post where I wrote/implied such a thing.

I find it very odd that I put more trust in the things written that many who think they practically live in heaven...

Your response on post #23, you said . . .
That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.

I really don't think I was making much of a stretch by my assessment.  It's been the ongoing argument from the beginning.  We frustrate each other because on side always shares out what they see symbolically while the other continues to reemphasize the literal.

That's your frustration. Mine is (partly) different.
My frustration is that literal threats get hijacked by spiritual stuff.

and WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance

I chalange you to find one post by me that even hints in that direction.
The Bible is a religious book. It would be insane to claim spiritual stuff isn't of higher importance that the literal stuff.
I would even say the spiritual stuff is of much more importance. Perhaps the only importance.

But:
- He who only understands the literal doesn't understand the Bible
- He who doesn't understand the literal doesn't understand the spiritual.

Or:
- If the literal isn't (fully) understood then (spiritual) spiritual can't be understood either.

The literal can be fully understood without understanding the slightest of the spiritual. But then you miss the whole point of the Bible.
The literal patterns are made to reveal the spiritual truth.

I see the Bible as a package deal.

:2c:

This thread is a prime example.  You asked a question pertaining to the falling away topic.  The supposition is that it's men falling away from God.  My position is that it's not men falling away but it's a veil "in" men that is falling away that is revealing the fact that men have been under the leadership and bondage of "man" in men.

Yet it's not the answer most are looking for . . .people are still wanting a name of an individual . . .as in a 'literal" person.  And as is the case with almost all these matters . . .there is simply no indication in any of Scripture that implies the prophecies are to be applied thousands of years later.  Jesus stated it would be "that generation" and John wrote the book was to be left open because the "time was at hand".  Yet many ignore what's written because they've already convinced themselves everything revolves around "my" generation. 

Yet for me, the only thing that affects "this" generation now is the spiritual applications.  And . . .Like Taffy, I've never said we should throw out the natural, "use" the natural as a sign to point us to the spiritual . . .but in the end, it's the spiritual that gives us life and strength and hunger.  If anything, it appears many want to throw out hte spiritual and just focus on the natural.

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:
For judgment I am come into this world,[ within MAN] as HE is spirit and LIFE,  that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind. :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

This reminds me of the parable of the four soils . . .the disciples didn't get that one either.  So when they were alone with Jesus, they brought it back up again and his question to them was really key.  He stated, "if you can't see the message in that one, which is simplistic in nature, how are you going to understand any other teachings I share with you?

In otherwords, if you can't find any spiritual value in the elementary truths, how are you going to receive the deeper things that I want to give you?

Even then the people wanted proof . . they wanted a sign and Jesus told them the only sign he'd give them is to remind them of the LITERAL experience Jonah had . . .he was in the belly of a big fish for three days . . .three is directly connected with RESURRECTION . . .which was Jesus' purpose . . to bring us resurrection life.  And if you read the actual story, Jonah calls it a prison . . . everyone will be quick to admit their minds are limited in understanding, but not so many are as willing to lay down the limitations of understanding and merely "receive" revelational truth.

Molly, you'd asked about whether or not our minds are the seed carriers and if our mind represents our woman, what is our man . . first, no, my mind is not the "carrier".  It's the "incubater" of the seed that is "planted" in the womb through the proper order of relationship as a woman submits to a man in acts of intimacy to allow his seed to enter her, so our mind is to be in submission to our SPIRIT (that's who the man in us is) so that the seed of promise and covenant can be passed from our spirit man into our conciousness . . our minds . . .and that's where understanding then is BIRTHED.  Spiritual truth is not taught, nor is it learned . . .but it is birthed once the spiritual alignment in us is in the established order of God . . the purpose for all of this for spiritual reproduction.  Our minds don't produce life, it only incubates and births the seeds of life planted in it.

[Taffy]

Amen Nat-- Christ is the Glory of God [ REVEALED IN US] who IS The SPIRIT OF  TRUTH\WISDOM who rises within as In the Glory of the LORD  WHO filled  the  Tabernalce-   The TRUTH of God MUST be revealed to the INNER [BEING]  :thumbsup:

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ

FOR MINE THE Truth is concealed IN ALL MEN-- awaiting to be revealed----The GLORY OF GOD is the REVEALING of his GOD'S CONCEALED TRUTH in US :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

And THAT is the LITERAL truth! :bigGrin:

[CHB]

I wonder what happened to one of my posts? Hummm.  Any one have an idea?  Actually there have been a few post that have gone missing in the past few days.

CHB

Charlotte- ALL deleted posts go in the rcycle bin--THIS box IS not visible to any other then Mods-- ive checked and theres no posts of youRS--so I havent a Clue what may have happened to them--- if they had been deleted then they WOULD show in this BOX  :dontknow:

As Molly said, I may have posted when someone else did and that is why it was not posted. I know a red box comes up with a warning that someone else posted but I am not perfect and maybe I didn't see it. Oh well. Forgive my ignoramous.  :laughing7:  :happy3:

CHB

[thinktank]

You should post more chb, I enjoy reading your posts.

[thinktank]

This reminds me of the parable of the four soils . . .the disciples didn't get that one either.  So when they were alone with Jesus, they brought it back up again and his question to them was really key.  He stated, "if you can't see the message in that one, which is simplistic in nature, how are you going to understand any other teachings I share with you?

In otherwords, if you can't find any spiritual value in the elementary truths, how are you going to receive the deeper things that I want to give you?

Even then the people wanted proof . . they wanted a sign and Jesus told them the only sign he'd give them is to remind them of the LITERAL experience Jonah had . . .he was in the belly of a big fish for three days . . .three is directly connected with RESURRECTION . . .which was Jesus' purpose . . to bring us resurrection life.  And if you read the actual story, Jonah calls it a prison . . . everyone will be quick to admit their minds are limited in understanding, but not so many are as willing to lay down the limitations of understanding and merely "receive" revelational truth.

Molly, you'd asked about whether or not our minds are the seed carriers and if our mind represents our woman, what is our man . . first, no, my mind is not the "carrier".  It's the "incubater" of the seed that is "planted" in the womb through the proper order of relationship as a woman submits to a man in acts of intimacy to allow his seed to enter her, so our mind is to be in submission to our SPIRIT (that's who the man in us is) so that the seed of promise and covenant can be passed from our spirit man into our conciousness . . our minds . . .and that's where understanding then is BIRTHED.  Spiritual truth is not taught, nor is it learned . . .but it is birthed once the spiritual alignment in us is in the established order of God . . the purpose for all of this for spiritual reproduction.  Our minds don't produce life, it only incubates and births the seeds of life planted in it.

That's all and good, but this forum is not a symbolist forum, it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus. There are many here who like to discuss symbolic truth such as yourself, while others here discuss it now and again. But I don't see why you are so against literal interpretation, as this is discussed and spoken of throughout the whole bible. Paul did speak of mysteries, but he also spoke about natural truths mirroring the spiritual. Discussing natural truth as you call it, brings people together to discuss who Jesus is. Perhaps you need to realize that not all people have the same mindset as you, but to call others who have a different mindset carnal, I don't believe you are seing things clearly, neither do I think that this is something the holy spirit is revealing to you but something that your natural preferences prefer.

As this is a Jesus centered forum and the people here have a huge amount of knowledge, revelation and maturity in their posts, I find it difficult to believe that the holy spirit has told you that we are carnally minded, thus I believe that most of it stems from your own natural preferences, coming from a artistic symbolic mindset, which is not entirely exclusive to a follower of Jesus as you might think, many people outside of God have a similar manner of speaking, I have read hundreds of posts, articles from non believers telling me the spiritual meaning of the symbols of revelation, which a lot of the times brings confusion to the true meaning of the symbols etc, so ironically perhaps you are the one that is being carnal naturally minded for judging the brethren outside of Gods revelation.

[Nathan]

Don't misinterpret judgment for differences of opinion . . . I've not condemned anyone.  I've merely shared what I see and then have pushed back when others disregard what I'm seeing, that's all this is.  We all have the ability to share what we see and then to question other's opinions for clarification so long as we keep things above reproach, which, even though we clearly disagree on a number of issues, no one is really demeaning anyone else. 

As far as you basing your assessment of me from your past experiences with others . . . how can you claim individuality in Christ and yet peg people under group titles?  We're all UR on one level or another, but even in that, none of us really have the same exact take on what UR really is. 

Look . . . when we spend all of our time "proving" facts "about" Christ, how is that not based on natural reasoning? 

For instance . . .take Abraham and Sarah . . . I'm sure most are aware of one of his traits being whenever he felt threatened he would have his wife tell people she was his sister.  But Abimelek comes along and they do their thing so he thinks he can have Sarah for himself . . .but then God shows up . . .and long story short, because Abimelek had the "intent" to sleep with Sarah . . .even though he didn't and even though he was well within his reasons . . .but because he even made the attempt, God closed up the wombs of his entire household.

Now . . .you tell me, which is more nourshing to our inner man . . . dissecting the literal story, or receiving the spiritual principle of what God was doing behind the scenes, beneath the surface the entire time?

Because if I just wanted to block out the spiritual and emphasize the natural story, I'd totally miss the fact that what Abraham was doing was self-preservation . . .he was afraid of being killed so he lied about his relationship.  And as a result of selfpreservation, he brought a curse on to those he encountered . . .His personal self-preservation caused others to lose their ability to reproduce . . .spiritually speaking . . .

That speaks so much more to my spirit than just trying to imagine how the literal story played out.  Everything has internal significance.

Your conclusions of me have also fallen short because you don't know that I "used" to be as funamental as they come.  I was very strongly opinionated about the idea that if it's not written in Scripture then it's not of God.  What you see "now" is a transformation of who I used to be.  And what you also don't wee is who I'm yet to become.  "This" place where we are now is merely a snapshot of where we are and who we are in Christ.  None of us are fully perfected yet.

[WhiteWings]

TT:  :thumbsup:

Nathan: It's all about courtesy. You will reap what you sow.

[Taffy]

Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.
Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.

Some thinkers, such as the Tolaat Yaakov, divide Pardes into Peshat, Remez, Din (law), and Sod. According to this understanding, Derash is divided into the homiletics, which are classified under Remez, and legal interpretations, which are classified under Din.

The Pardes typology is quite similar to the contemporary Christian fourfold allegorical scheme.

but this forum is not a symbolist forum, it is a forum to discuss UR or more importantly Jesus

PLEASE- where  ON this Board declares this statement TO BE  TRUE-?

YOU just may find that the central theme of all mystical, symbolic posts is CHRIST - HOW more Central can they BE?

Symbolism\mystersism is here to stay guys-- Fine if your not blessed-- NO worries---- - personally im led to continually post in this MANNER not purely for the person who one may be discussing with[ as some just ignore you-lol   :laughing7: ]-- but for Lurkers and those who come to read----

May ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

May ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:

Leaving it alone is the cause of division.
But no problem. I'll no longer have the basic courtesy to at least try to post a little on topic. I'll pollute threads that are intended to be spiritual minded with as much carnal stuff as I can think about. Just following your example.

[Taffy]

May ASK you all NOW to stop - ENOUGH has been said--- lets leave it and move on---- and dont let this divide the Board---TY ALL :icon_flower:

Leaving it alone is the cause of division.
But no problem. I'll no longer have the basic courtesy to at least try to post a little on topic. I'll pollute threads that are intended to be spiritual minded with as much carnal stuff as I can think about. Just following your example.

TY Tony at least you declared your INTENT---  :sigh:

[Nathan]

I'll go one better . . . I'll just back away from the boards all togther and you guys can be free without my interrupting the topic.