Falling away compared to what?

[WhiteWings]

^ERRB2 Thessalonians 2
3 Let no man deceive one seduce you by in any means manner : for that day shall not come because , except unless there come a falling away an apostatizing first, and that man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;


^ERRB2 Peter 2
1 PSEUDO PROPHETS AND PSEUDO DOCTORS But there were false became pseudo prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers pseudo doctors among you, who privily shall bring in surreptitiously introduce damnable destructive heresies, even denying the Lord Despotes that bought marketed them, and bring upon themselves swift quick destruction.


^ERRBMatthew 24
11 And many false pseudo prophets shall rise, and shall deceive seduce many.


It's often said that a sign of the "end times" is that many people are falling away.
In that case we are way beyond the end times and at the same time less fallen away than in majority of human history.

In the time before Jesus there were a few million Jews. The rest were pagans worshiping many gods.
After Jesus died the number of Christians grew and people slowly started to worship one instead of many gods.
Right now there is a lot of atheism but I think most religious people worship just one god now. So perhaps that's an improvement...?

I think Christianity was at it's hight during the time of the crusades. The 1960's marked sharp and still continuing) decline.
So as far as I'm concerned the fallen away has happened decades ago.

Maybe we should look much further back in time. 31-60AD.
Jesus was well known for His miracles and His blasphemy among the people of Jerusalem (and the region).
Historical records show that when He resurrected half of the Jews converted to Christianity. So did many Romans.
But the Jews expected that Jesus somehow would establish His kingdom and kick the Romans out.
But when Jesus didn't return within the expected time the Jews 'fell away' to their old religion because they assumed Jesus was a false Teacher after all.
Is it possible the falling away was about the Jews?

[thinktank]

man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;

But who was this man of sin? and I want proper biblical answers, not trying to avoid the question with anologies and sweet sounding acronyms.

[Taffy]

man human of sin be revealed unveiled , the son of perdition destruction ;

But who was this man of sin? and I want proper biblical answers, not trying to avoid the question with anologies and sweet sounding acronyms.

But who was this man of sin

YOU - WHO INHERTIED THE NATURE OF our NATURAL Parents---  the carnal man \the man of sin-   who else sits in HIS TEMPLE declaring himself GOD---- :

[thinktank]

In context Taff. The carnal mind is not something that is revealed, that was revealed a long time ago, during the old testament, even during Genesis.

If Paul is speaking about Genesis, then he has done a good job at confusing millions of Christians.

He is warning about falling away and then the man of sin is revealed.

Your acronym may have a general truth to humanities condition, but it does not answer the question in this passage.

[Taffy]

In context Taff. The carnal mind is not something that is revealed, that was revealed a long time ago, during the old testament, even during Genesis.

If Paul is speaking about Genesis, then he has done a good job at confusing millions of Christians.

He is warning about falling away and then the man of sin is revealed.

Your acronym may have a general truth to humanities condition, but it does not answer the question in this passage.

:2c:  saul another of those serpents ,BORN of their father the liar and murderer FROM the BEGINNING---seems he mentions That the LORD was revealed IN HIM, thus [b[ THE LAW]]showing HIM the man of SIN.- [/b] the SIN birthed by eve in the Garden- the LAW was to show MAN his SIN - lest he wouldnt have KNOWN what SIN was---

Rom 7:7  What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. 


Rom 7:8   But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin [was] dead. 

Rom 7:9   For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 


Rom 7:10   And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, [b]I found [to be] unto death.   

Rom 7:11   For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew [me]. 

Rom 7:12   Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 


Rom 7:13  Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 

your man of SIN revealed------then romans 5


Rom 5:12  Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 

Rom 5:13   (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 

Rom 5:14   Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 


Rom 5:15   But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 


Rom 5:16   And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification. 


Rom 5:17   For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

now lets Check again whats """DEATH"is-- oh YES paul said this TOO-HERE TO IS THE CAUSE OF sin THE CARNAL MIND birthed in the GARDEN-YOUR VERY MAN OF SIN

Rom 8:6   For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. 


Rom 8:7   Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 


Rom 8:8   So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 
soFOR MINE- yes it is in scripture and paul never fooled a SOUL :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person.  Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings.  Why do you think there are so many denominations?  So many different religions?  And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is?  The answer is not outside of us, it's within us. 

You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really?  If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it?  It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US. 

Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years.  Really?  So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window?  In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then.  I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to".  For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.

It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place.  Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface.  It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men.  Otherwise known as Scriptures.

[WhiteWings]

which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years

A day is like a 1000 years.
We are still in the second day after crucificion.
Resurrection is at hand  :winkgrin:

[Nathan]

Actually, we're past the second day and in the dawning of the third.

[WhiteWings]

Hu?
31+2000=2031

[lomarah]

A day is like a 1000 years.
We are still in the second day after crucificion.
Resurrection is at hand 

That's exciting!!

[Taffy]

Actually, we're past the second day and in the dawning of the third.

:icon_flower: :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person.  Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings.  Why do you think there are so many denominations?  So many different religions?  And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is?  The answer is not outside of us, it's within us. 

You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really?  If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it?  It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US. 

Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years.  Really?  So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window?  In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then.  I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to".  For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.

It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place.  Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface.  It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men.  Otherwise known as Scriptures.

In other words you don't believe that a man of sin will arise to dominate the world. That is fine, it is not exactly something I look forward too with open arms, another Hitler is not appealing, whether a man be rightoeus or unrightoeus it is a terrifying prospect, but for some reason God put the warnings in place, I'm not sure of His exact reason.

I ask to know the meaning of the man of sin in response to wings post, since he took the falling away to be literally, then I ask who is the man of sin during that time period of 31-60 AD, since the falling away scripture also includes details about a man of sin.

[CHB]

I think this is an article that would be good for everyone to read.

Understanding the Olivet Prophecy
http://www.goodnewsarticles.com/Sep06-1.htm

CHB

[Taffy]

TT . .seriously, you're not going to find an answer to this if you're looking for a literal person.  Look at all of the other prophecies men have attempted to articulate through natural reasonings.  Why do you think there are so many denominations?  So many different religions?  And you think someone is going to give you an acceptable answer as to who the antichrist is?  The answer is not outside of us, it's within us. 

You say carnality has been revealed already . . .really?  If that's the case then why do the majority of beleivers still embrace it?  It can only be revealed through personal revelation from God WITHIN US. 

Peter stood and said the famous "This is that" when addressing the outpouring of the Holy Spirit prophesied by Joel who said "in the last days" . . .which traditionally we're told we've been in the last days for 2,000 years.  Really?  So how are they going to fit the rest of this stuff in that 2,000 year window?  In a sense (dimension) I do beleive it was the last days and we're in the last days, but the last days we're in now simply aren't the last days they were in then.  I believe the last days Peter was referring to were the last days of the Old Covenant system . . . those who were to take these things literally, were the same which these things were literally written "to".  For us now, the greater benefit is to see the message within the message.

It's beyond fussing over terms . . .allegories, analogies, dimensions, parables . . .they're all one and the same and they are what our spirit feeds on, not the literal intellect that our minds can't find any answers to in the first place.  Truth can not be walked on because it doesn't lie on the surface.  It can only be received to those who "press in" or "dig beneath" what lies on the surface and allow the Father to reveal the life that's within the message of ancient stories of men.  Otherwise known as Scriptures.

In other words you don't believe that a man of sin will arise to dominate the world. That is fine, it is not exactly something I look forward too with open arms, another Hitler is not appealing, whether a man be rightoeus or unrightoeus it is a terrifying prospect, but for some reason God put the warnings in place, I'm not sure of His exact reason.

I ask to know the meaning of the man of sin in response to wings post, since he took the falling away to be literally, then I ask who is the man of sin during that time period of 60-70 AD, since the falling away scripture also includes details about a man of sin.

how  about the MAN of sin has to fall within everyman  in conjunction with the Rising\coming\appearing of the LORD?   meaning what happens within US oppossed to LOOKING OUTSIDE of US:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

Carnal stuff ahead. So Nathan and Taffy run and don't look back...

We are crucified with/in Christ. He was in the grave for 3 days and 3 nights. Note that it's not exactly 72 hours. The first day and the last night theorectically can be anywhere between 1 second and 12 hours.
A day is like  a 1000 years. Meaning each 12 hours is 500 year.
2 days and 2 nights =  4x500=2000
The first day and the last night are of unknown duration. Somewhere between 0 and 1000 years.
That would bring the total to somewhere between 2031AD - 3031AD
:2c:

[Molly]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

[thinktank]

Molly you have already waited patiently for a hundred years, what's another 20?

.........

Awaiting backlash,,-  oh no tribulation has began  :icon_jokercolor:

[Nathan]

Hu?
31+2000=2031

From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed.  From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED

And seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . . you remember the story about when Jesus told the disciples "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ."  and the disciples took him to literally rebuke them for forgetting to bring food with them . . . every time we try to make a spiritual truth fit to our natural reasoning, we do the same thing.

Jesus IS the DAY . . . the thousand years is not about a reference to time as much as it is to a positioning in our relationship with the Day.  1000 = 10x10x10 . . .the heights, depths and widths of the Love of God . . . why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers.  The idea of another Hitler coming on the scene . . .what does that invoke in us?  What does "any" of the traditional concepts on the end times events invoke other than fear . . .destruction . . .death . . .where is the essence of God in any of that???

[WhiteWings]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

[Taffy]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

:laughing7:

well common sense says to me Tony--- have it CARNALor have it spiritual--either or--- :winkgrin:  :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

Hu?
31+2000=2031

From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed.  From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED

And seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . . you remember the story about when Jesus told the disciples "beware of the leven of the Pharisees . . ."  and the disciples took him to literally rebuke them for forgetting to bring food with them . . . every time we try to make a spiritual truth fit to our natural reasoning, we do the same thing.

Jesus IS the DAY . . . the thousand years is not about a reference to time as much as it is to a positioning in our relationship with the Day.  1000 = 10x10x10 . . .the heights, depths and widths of the Love of God . . . why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers.  The idea of another Hitler coming on the scene . . .what does that invoke in us?  What does "any" of the traditional concepts on the end times events invoke other than fear . . .destruction . . .death . . .where is the essence of God in any of that???

The leven was the IFLATED ego of their carnal MIND---GIANTS in their OWN life TIME---

[Molly]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

[WhiteWings]

Hu?
31+2000=2031

From Jesus time to the year 1000 . . .one day passed.  From the year 1000 to the year 2000 . . . the second day PASSED

Problem is that Jesus didn't die in the year 0.

And seriously . . .this literal thinking is only going to lead to more confusion . . .
.....why embrace the conclusions of the reasoning mind when all it leads to is more questions than answers.

That's a simple question....
I want to figure things out. I have no desire to pull the spiritual card everytime it gets difficult.


BTW: I don't think the natural reasoning of the Pharisees was what Jesus called leven...

[Nathan]

It wasn't the natural reasoning of the Pharisees . . .it was the natural reasoning of the disciples.  But I believe as you already are aware, that what Taf mentions . . .carnal/spiritual . . .it simplifies the whole message when you break it down to either spiritual truth, or natural/carnal reasoning.  and WW your own words are evidence that spiritual truth is of less importance to you where as natural logic is where the answers lie? 

[WhiteWings]

2031AD - 3031AD

Phooey on that. I'm not waiting another 20 years.  Recalculate.

Maybe you meant 20 months?

It doesn't align with anything 'calculated' before; but it annoys Taffy so I think it served its purpose very well  :winkgrin:

Where you end depends on where you start.  So start somewhere that brings you to 2011/2012.

Otherwise you annoy everyone. :winkgrin:

My other calculation is 2008. The year I joined. I can say with 100% certainty I'm not rapture material so it seems you didn't make it either.
Ok.... recalculate 2016