Myth of Gehenna

[Doug]

it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.

Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all.  But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New).   :2c:

Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah about the future of the valley of Hinnom, which say that it will become "holy unto the Lord." This is easily understood, when Jesus' references to Gehenna are seen in the context of a judgment, which those who are accounted unworthy to enter the kingdom of heaven and the holy city must endure.

While in the prophecies of Isaiah and of Zechariah Jerusalem was to be raised up, in Jeremiah's prophecy, Jerusalem was to be enlarged, or extended beyond the boundaries of the walls that existed in his time.

Isaiah said Jerusalem and Mount Zion would be "established in the top of the mountains" and "exalted above the hills." [Isaiah 2:1-3] Zechariah said Jerusalem would be "lifted up" and "and inhabited in her place" while the surrounding country would become "as a plain." [Zechariah 14:9]

A very curious enigma is apparent when we compare the prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah about Jerusalem being raised up on the one hand, and the prophecy of Ezekiel 47:1-12, about a river flowing from the temple towards the east, on the other. The river in Ezekiel 47 gradually increases in depth. The gradient of the land implied by Ezekiel's prophecy does not fit the existing topography, in the area between the site of the temple and the mount of Olives, as he described the water first at his ankles, then at his knees, and then at his loins, etc, as he walked towards the east, and it implies that the depth of the river increases at a rate of about three feet in the distance of about half a mile, which is the gradient one might find on a large parking lot, or on a football field. If Jerusalem were raised up, as Isaiah and Zechariah's prophecies say, the slope of the land would be much greater, and so the problem of how such a gradient of the river would be possible, is increased.

The solution is plain: Ezekiel's river is not a literal one, and the prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah about Jerusalem becoming "raised up" refer to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. It was "raised up" when Jesus ascended to heaven, Acts 1:9. The river described by Ezekiel represents the gospel going forth from the church. Zechariah gives a similar prophecy in Zechariah 14:8; he says these are rivers of "living water," and Jesus identified "rivers of living water" with the Spirit. [John 7:38-39]

Consider Jeremiah's prophecy about the extension of the boundaries of Jerusalem, in Jeremiah 31. This chapter contains a prophecy about a new covenant, [Jeremiah 31:31-34] which is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, and applied to the church. Jeremiah wrote:

Jeremiah 31:38-40
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

These verses describe the future boundaries of the city, referring to seven landmarks. These landmarks are the Tower of Hananel, the Corner Gate, the hill Gareb, another hill named Goah or Goath, the valley of dead bodies and ashes, the fields as far as the brook Kidron, and the Horse Gate. The order in which these seven places are mentioned is as if the prophet was making a circuit of the city in a counterclockwise direction, beginning at the northeast of the city.

The Tower of Hananel was located in the north wall of the city, near the northeast corner. It was between the fish gate and the sheep gate. [Nehemiah 12:39] In Zechariah 14:10 it represents the northern limit of the city, while the king's winepress is the southern limit.

The Corner Gate marked the northwest limit of the city. It marked the western limit, in Zechariah 14:10, while in that verse, Benjamin's gate marks the eastern limit. It was associated with the Ephraim Gate in 2 Kings 14:13 and 2 Chronicles 25:23, so it must be located at the northwest corner of the city.

Gareb means "scabby," and refers to a hill which was the dwelling place of lepers, outside of the city. Its precise location is uncertain, but it was no doubt a hill to the west of the city.

Goah, or Goath, means "lowing" (Easton's Bible Dictionary; Smith's Bible Dictionary) or "his roaring" (Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary). It may possibly be Abu Tor (Giv'at HaNanya) (lit. "Father of the Bull"), bounded by the Valley of Hinnom on the north.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Tor

The valley of dead bodies is the Hinnom Valley or Gehenna.

The fields as far as the brook Kidron extends the boundaries of the city eastward to the brook Kidron.

The Horse Gate opened upon the Valley of Kidron, and was located in the east wall, near the Temple.

For a scholarly study of these locations, and a review of several interpretations of Jeremiah's prophecy, see:

Dennis M. Swanson. Expansion of Jerusalem in Jer 31:38-40: never, already or not yet? The Master's Seminary Journal 17/1 (Spring 2006) 17-34.

Jeremiah's prophecy about the extension of Jerusalem's boundaries indicates that the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna will eventually be included in Jerusalem, which represents the holy city, the saints. This is significant in the light of statements by Jesus about Gehenna; he referred to it as a judgment, that Christians are encouraged to avoid, at all costs, even if it means suffering the loss of an eye, or a hand, or a foot. The prophecy of Jeremiah shows the intended results of the judgment that Gehenna represents.

In Revelation 7, two groups are described. The first group, of those who are sealed, represent the saints, who are also described in Revelation 14:1-5. They are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

John says: "in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:5] They are the ones who gain entry to the holy city, and who are included in the new covenant. The second group, the great multitude which no man can number, includes all those who missed out, and who are "left behind" at the coming of Christ. John said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Revelation 7:14]  "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." [Revelation 7:16-17]

Doug

Gehenna and the land promise

[jabcat]

it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.

Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all.  But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New).   :2c:

Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah

I see that as too much of a generalization/too "strong" of a statement.

I don't believe that seeing the connection of gehenna to the judgment of Israel in 70 AD excludes any other relevant prophecies or events, including the restoration of the valley.  IMO, if one were to say gehenna and Israel's judgment related to the passing of the old covenant were unrelated at all, that would be missing much.

[Doug]

it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.

Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all.  But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New).   :2c:

Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah

I see that as too much of a generalization/too "strong" of a statement.

I don't believe that seeing the connection of gehenna to the judgment of Israel in 70 AD excludes any other relevant prophecies or events, including the restoration of the valley.  IMO, if one were to say gehenna and Israel's judgment related to the passing of the old covenant were unrelated at all, that would be missing much.

A problem with the 70 AD idea is that it limits the warnings of Jesus about Gehenna to ethnic Jews of the first century only, whereas they apply to Christians of every age. IMO, none of the things said of Gehenna in the New Testament apply specifically to the events of 70 AD; plucking out an eye, cutting off a hand or a foot cannot apply to ethnic Jews as a nation; calling ones' brother a "fool" would not apply to the nation, etc.

Jeremiah's prophecy about the restoration of the valley of Hinnom [Jeremiah 31:38-40] is given in the context of the prophecy about the new covenant, [Jeremiah 31:31-33] which is applied to the church in Hebrews 8 & 11.

In Jeremiah 31:38, the city is to be built "to the Lord." "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD..."  Often, the phrase "to the Lord" was used in connection with offerings, service, "turn to the Lord," "holy to the Lord," etc.

Ephesians 6:7
With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:

Colossians 3:23
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

It is the opposite of "against the Lord."

Jesus is building his church; David wrote, "The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel." [Psalm 147:2] This is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the one made with hands.

Hebrews 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Paul wrote: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." [2 Corinthians 5:1]

In Jeremiah's prophecy, the restoration of Jerusalem is to be forever. Jeremiah 31:40: "...it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever." This can only apply to the heavenly city, not the earthly one.

Doug

A city built by God

[thinktank]

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


Mans opinion

John 8:48
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil(carnality)?

Vs Gods opinion

John 8:49
Jesus answered, I have not a devil(carnality); but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.

John 10:21
Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil(carnality). Can a devil(carnality) open the eyes of the blind?

Peace in Christ

[Taffy]

Just for second there TT i was BLOWN away---- consider the Mind -- the LIAR, the accusser, the Murderer, the THEIF, HE  which stands In oppostion, Falsehood, wickedenss, death, , WORDLY wisdom,The enmity, confusion,sin, Deception, Utruth,did the LORD have any of these-- seems HE put these to DEATH to? :HeartThrob:

who was the roaring LION---- The Lion King from the Movies----? seeking who who could EAT---- we are what we eat... believe LIES youll tell lies-?-- ---When genesis mention we are to Have DOMINION over the animal, such animals are a Part of Nature-- why on earth do you think ANIMALS of various sorts depict the charachter and NATURE of Christ come the sacrifiCes-----I gather youR NO SHEEP?  :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

[Taffy]

Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.


John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

The LION is obviously SATAN as He did with the Serpent -- SOMEONE who enters the Bodies of ANIMALS---- But you SEE the Metaphor and the Figurative of Being a SHEEP-- WHICH WAS THE very POINT OF THE post TT--- :icon_flower:

why a SHEEP AND goat? what thes Nature of a Sheep?

[Taffy]

Theres But two Scriptues within the WHOLE book which mention  The POWER of DEATH - No more--  one is the DEVIL the Other is the TONGUE---- what would you state the common ground is--- ie Life and Death are In the POWER of the Tonguw--- I thought it was the little Guy in a red Suit--- whatS he got to do with the TONGUE?-- OR IS SCRIPTURE NOW SOME bIG FABLE---

Pro 18:21   Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

Hbr 2:14   Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 

[thinktank]

A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.

A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.

Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.

[thinktank]

Who has the power of death, Tongue or devil?

I think a good starting point is to look at that scripture again and find that the tongue has power of life.

So does that mean that we only need the tongue in order to live? Do we need Christ?

The scripture states that christ has the power to resurect and give life, but can the tongue do that?

The tongue can give life in the sense of encouraging one another and saying good words, but its christ who gives life.

So if one applies this on the opposite end, we have the devil who has power over death and the tongue who contributes towards death.
:2c:

[Taffy]

Who has the power of death, Tongue or devil?

I think a good starting point is to look at that scripture again and find that the tongue has power of life.

So does that mean that we only need the tongue in order to live? Do we need Christ?

The scripture states that christ has the power to resurect and give life, but can the tongue do that?

The tongue can give life in the sense of encouraging one another and saying good words, but its christ who gives life.

So if one applies this on the opposite end, we have the devil who has power over death and the tongue who contributes towards death.
:2c:

What activates The TONGUE? and yes Its able to SPEAK LIFE as WELL-- which is more then the Devil can do Right?

[Taffy]

A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.

A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.

Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.

so now your not seing SHEEP your seeing Natures----- EXACTLY---- :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

your not REALLy a SHEEP are you ?   so whats TTHE NATURE of of another animal, maybe a serpent as all NAMES define a NATURE, the NATURE of satan\devil--- BUT fol;k cant get passed this ENTITY being REALWhen the LORD says-- You are of you FATHER the Devil a LIAR murderer from the Beginning--- do really Think SATAN GOES AROUND impregnating HIS seed as a LITERAL FATHER------??? 

[thinktank]

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


Yes the tongue speaks life, so how can it be exclusively carnal flesh.

[Taffy]

Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.


Yes the tongue speaks life, so how can it be exclusively carnal flesh.

the Tongue can Only do One or two-- iether SPEAK death  or SPEAK life--- so who spoke DEATH and who speaks LIFE--  :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.

A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.

Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.

so now your not seing SHEEP your seeing Natures----- EXACTLY---- :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

your not REALLy a SHEEP are you ?   so whats TTHE NATURE of of another animal, maybe a serpent as all NAMES define a NATURE, the NATURE of satan\devil--- BUT fol;k cant get passed this ENTITY being REALWhen the LORD says-- You are of you FATHER the Devil a LIAR murderer from the Beginning--- do really Think SATAN GOES AROUND impregnating HIS seed as a LITERAL FATHER------???

You seem to be going around in circles Taff. You have stated before that it is -silly- of people to think of satan as a literal dragon with a red pitch fork etc etc. There are very few Christians I know of who thinks that the devil is a literal dragon.

The images you see on tv concerning the devil and the pitchfolk, is Hollywoods and the worlds definition of Satan. I also heard that the images of one devil on the left shoulder and an angel on the right shoulder, comes from Islam.

It seems to be that you associated worldy definitions of Satan and applied them to the believers.

In biblical passages the devil is seen as the prince of the air and is cast down the the earth, not a hollywood version, worldly person or certain christian groups idea of a little imp with a pitchfolk under the earth, tormenting sinners.

Perhaps this helps clear up some misunderstandings.

But back to your questions. This is a contreversial topic, but this is what Jesus said.

Whosever sins is of the devil, because the devil sinneth from the begining.

So when we sin we are spiritually connecting to the devil, because he invented sin, so perhaps this means we become like him, in the sense that the son follows the fathers footsteps, or it means that we connect to the devil somehow and draw energy or darkness from him in order to sin. I think it seems a bit extreme to think we connect to the devil when we sin, but Jesus was the only one who had not sinned, and he said that the prince of the world has nothing in me. So maybe an alcaholic has elements of darkness within him, etc, perhaps not the devil himself, but his devices, perhaps his devices consist of manipilated genes, so that the genes are programmed to behave other as God intended. But I think merely reducing it to genes is a bit crude. The human body is much more advanced than that, and also contains  unique underlying energetic patterns that help shape the body and energy levels. I perceive that the devil uses his devices on these energy fields, to manipilate and destroy.

:2c:

[Taffy]

-  The tongue which speaks death  pertian to those who believed in the Ministry of DEATH-- those who speak LIFE confess with their TONGUE to the LIFE who  are believiing and speaking CHRIST THE savior[ life] OF THE world---Hence the LIFE and DEATH are in the POWER of the Tongue---- so the TONGUE speaks TRUTH or lies pertaining to Law V grace and TRUTH----the JEWS BEING THEir Father the DEVIL,  were the CARNAL minded IN DEATH--shows the ongoing picture of the cause from the out set being the ENIMITY birthed by Eve= carnal Mind----  the carnal MIND is the satan\devil\ Serpent, - even the JEWS today still have the nature of the BEAST being the devil being in their CLOSED carnal reasoning---- - :icon_flower: be well have good day  :icon_flower: time to move on :HeartThrob:

[Molly]

TT, are you saying it is possible for the flesh to be sanctified [made holy] in this life?


1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[thinktank]

Yes, that's what those verses state. Also scripture tells us that Jesus did not sin. But if Jesus came in the flesh and then lived inside a body of sinfull condition, then wouldn't he be unholy, unclean?


He was tempted but without sin.

The nature of the flesh is that temptation stimulates it, but if the flesh be clean, then it no longer commands, but resorts to demands, and this helps us to survive. Because if the flesh did not demand, then we would not bother or forget to eat food. But sometimes with people the flesh commands and we become a slave to the demands of the body.

Jesus did not sin, but his flesh demanded food, water, oxygen to keep him alive in a sense he become a lowly worm like us, no longer to be the God like impossibility, but limited in the flesh.

John 13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Try this on for size.........Leviathan is in the sea (sea of humanity).......leviathan is as the tongue, that NO MAN can tame, but GOD can put a hook (Christ) in it, and lead it where He would, giving it HIS breath to speak. This is why the serpents slayed them in the wilderness (they reaped what they sowed, we are reproved with our OWN wickedness), yet they had to make a BRAZEN (speaks of judgment to the flesh, the brazen altar for killing flesh, also the cross) serpent, ie. a serpent/tongue that went to the cross, to look up upon and be healed/made whole.

Serpents live in the dust realm, but looking up at one raised from the dead (dust realm), since we become what we behold (changed as we perceive from glory to glory), makes us whole and changes our position which changes our confession, which changes what we reap. This is why He said He ONLY spoke that which He heard His Father speak, because He was overcoming leviathan in what He (as the pre-existant Christ) had been lowered into.

Which is why Paul said, our CONVERSATION is from HEAVEN (as we behold the serpent on a pole). You can't speak out of a place you've never been before. Being seated in heavenly places does NOT mean we're sitting down; a seat is a foundation, the SEA below us becomes as glass (hardened as rock), the letter Word accomplished in us becomes the foundation Rock we stand on, our "footstool", just as it was His footstool, ie. "the earth is My footstool, and heaven is my throne".

This is how Christ could come walking to Peter on the water; the water is as the waters below the firmament (heaven), and become as rock to stand on when the Spirit-breathed Word is obeyed, fulling the letter. My  :2c:......got to run  :sigh:  Blessings....

[Taffy]

   :thumbsup:    that Fits very well indeed    :icon_flower: dont run Card, not on those knees --- good to see you back sister  :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

   :thumbsup:    :icon_flower: dont run Card

Busy time for harvesting angels  :angel5:

[Taffy]

 :winkgrin:
now aint that thr Truth!  :icon_flower:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I'm kinda sorta back, but working so many hours finding time to sleep is a challenge, much less anything else. But PRAISE GOD good things are happening all around at long last. God is so good and worthy to be praised....... :girlheart: