Myth of Gehenna

[nightflight]

I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump.  There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as "hell," writers and preachers accept and propagate the story.

http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html

Every now and then I'm reminded why I hate God.

[jabcat]

We love him, because he first loved us.  I John 4:19

[jabcat]

But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.  Romans 5:8

Please pray for nf.  NF, any of the members will be happy to talk with you in private if we can help.

Call on Him. 

 

[jabcat]

Hold My Heart

How long must I pray, must I pray to You
How long must I wait, must I wait for You
How long 'till I see Your face
See You shining through

I'm on my knees
Begging You to notice me
I'm on my knees
Father, will You turn to me, yeah?

One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?

One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?

I've been so afraid, afraid to close my eyes
So much can slip away before I say goodbye
But if there's no other way
I'm done asking why

'Cause I'm on my knees
Begging You to turn to me
I'm on my knees
Father, will You run to me, yeah?

One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?

One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?

So many questions without answers
Your promises remain
I can't see but I'll take my chances
To hear You call my name
To hear You call my name

One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?

One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?

Hold my heart
Could You hold my heart?
Hold my heart      (Donehey, Michael; Ingram, Jason David; Larue, Phillip;)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry6udsW9leA

[jabcat]

I don't really follow the writer's logic, that because sacrifices occurred there, it therefor means it was not a garbage dump and/or was definitely symbolic of "the destiny of the wicked".  I personally think he talks in a confusing circle, and I don't think what he says means that God is at fault for that.   

Now beautiful, I believe Gehenna was a filthy, nasty place, where garbage was thrown - as well as the bodies of the Jewish elite who were judged in 70 AD.  But that situation and condition was temporal, as they will be raised and restored, brought to God through the Messiah, Yesu - when "all Israel shall be saved".

[Aleax]

Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) — "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Dead bodies? How can this be describing everlasting conscious torment? In my opinion, using this verse as a "proof" is backfiring on the author. This passage is, as far as I know, about the punishment of Gehenna being re-instituted during the Millennial Kingdom. The bodies of those who receive the capital punishment will be thrown there to be burned.

Marcos - you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. It was Jesus who said, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46).

Check the previous verses.

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.

If Matthew 25:46 is about the Final Judgement, then the timing is off by a thousand years. Christ won't return to earth to execute the final judgement, he will return to establish a kingdom for a millennium.

[shawn]

I don't really follow the writer's logic, that because sacrifices occurred there, it therefor means it was not a garbage dump and/or was definitely symbolic of "the destiny of the wicked".  I personally think he talks in a confusing circle, and I don't think what he says means that God is at fault for that.   

Now beautiful, I believe Gehenna was a filthy, nasty place, where garbage was thrown - as well as the bodies of the Jewish elite who were judged in 70 AD.  But that situation and condition was temporal, as they will be raised and restored, brought to God through the Messiah, Yesu - when "all Israel shall be saved".

I don't really follow the writers argument as well.  If you read just the verses, it appears to be a stretch to say that is the place where all of mankind goes to be burned forever.  How it reads is punishment for a particular group of people.  A judgment that lead to death.  To me, it's irrelevant whether this is a garbage dump.

[jabcat]

Yeah, he's posting in comments about how Jesus and the Bible talk about eternal punishment.  Sad, really. 

I left a comment, hopefully he has ears to hear.

[Ross]

Hi
1 Cor 15;22  " For just as in the Adam ALL die;
    so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive."

Where is hell in that?

[WhiteWings]

Only those in Christ will be made alive....
All = all believers.
That's the common argument.

[Nathan]

It's still all about perspectives though.  If you believe in torment, all you'll see are eferences to torment.  If you believe in grace, all you'll see are references to grace.

So . . .say the guy is right . . say that Ghenna was never a garbage dump but that it was a place ONLY where men worshiped other gods by burning their children to them . . . how does one make the jump from that to a comparison that it's a place of eternal torment?  God didn't burn those kids, men did.  God didn't instruct them to, they did it out of their own perverted hearts.  If anything, I believe it's our own choices that dictate whether or not we experience hell.  And even then . . . where to they get the "never ending torment" part?  Those kids that were sacrificed there . . .they burned and died shortly thereafter . . no continual torture . . .once there's nothing left to consume, the fire goes out . .and if anything, the guy in the article was actually PROVING that Ghenna was not an eternal place of torment.

It's all in the perspective of the individual.

[Molly]

Only those in Christ will be made alive....
All = all believers.
That's the common argument.

As soon as you see it as prophecy, that rendition goes out the window.

..so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive."



...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
--Rev 19:10

[WhiteWings]

in the Christ --> See you must be in Christ

Rephrased:
- Everyone that is in Christ will be saved.
- Those in Christ will all be saved.

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower: Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 

An Atomic Bomb no doubt?  :sigh:
If thy EYES cause you to sin or YOUR feet or Right hand ? better to cast it into Gehenna FIRE then have your WHOLE body Burn? such is symbolism-

Gehenna Consumed Flesh OFFERED to IDOLS such as Molech?- :sigh:

Gehenna By comparrison is a Place to BURN that which is unproftable- Its Likened to the CARNAL tongue spoken in James- The Tongue which  SPEAKS  The Unprofitable- likened to the Ministry of DEATH  [ speaking words Of Judgment] as we see by example the RICHMAN who was TORMENTED in the Flames ,His Tongue a FIRE  :sigh:

James 1:26 If any man among you """"seem to be religious""" and bridleth NOT HIS TONGUE, but "deceiveth his own heart" this man's religion IS VAIN.  

LIVING as an ENEMY of the GOSPEL disobedience and its being VAIN connected to the TONGUE.


For they ~SPEAK AGAINST~ thee wickedly, and thine enemies take ~THY NAME~ IN VAIN.
its seems if one could TAME the TONGUE the Body would BE "WHOLE"?

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man  and able also to bridle the whole body.

--- Gehenna Fire the Abode of the Unprofitable  :sigh:

the casting of the Unprofitable servant into OUTER darkness?

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  :icon_flower:

[Molly]

in the Christ --> See you must be in Christ

Rephrased:
- Everyone that is in Christ will be saved.
- Those in Christ will all be saved.

No because the prophecy part is

..shall ALL be made alive."


The 'in Christ' is just telling you how that is going to happen.

[Nathan]

:icon_flower: Zec 14:12  And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 

An Atomic Bomb no doubt?  :sigh:
If thy EYES cause you to sin or YOUR feet or Right hand ? better to cast it into Gehenna FIRE then have your WHOLE body Burn? such is symbolism-

Gehenna Consumed Flesh OFFERED to IDOLS such as Molech?- :sigh:

Gehenna By comparrison is a Place to BURN that which is unproftable- Its Likened to the CARNAL tongue spoken in James- The Tongue which  SPEAKS  The Unprofitable- likened to the Ministry of DEATH  [ speaking words Of Judgment] as we see by example the RICHMAN who was TORMENTED in the Flames ,His Tongue a FIRE  :sigh:

James 1:26 If any man among you """"seem to be religious""" and bridleth NOT HIS TONGUE, but "deceiveth his own heart" this man's religion IS VAIN.  

LIVING as an ENEMY of the GOSPEL disobedience and its being VAIN connected to the TONGUE.


For they ~SPEAK AGAINST~ thee wickedly, and thine enemies take ~THY NAME~ IN VAIN.
its seems if one could TAME the TONGUE the Body would BE "WHOLE"?

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man  and able also to bridle the whole body.

--- Gehenna Fire the Abode of the Unprofitable  :sigh:

the casting of the Unprofitable servant into OUTER darkness?

Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.  :icon_flower:

Great post Taf!!!

So Ghenna fire is a fire that is an unprofitable burning . . . those kids that burned in that fire profited nothing.  Those that experience Ghenna fire are unprofitable in their doctrines and walk.  They are in a fire that carnality brought on itself . . .I'm just thinking out loud here . . .not sure of any of this . . .sometimes it helps if I put things in print to see how it flows.

Ghenna is the reference used when Jesus stated "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell . . .the authority of unprofitable destruction can not prevail against it.

It's better to enter into the kingdom with one eye than to enter into meaningless destruction with both eyes. 

Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into needless destruction

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of meaningless destruction than yourselves.


Hmmm . . .

[Taffy]

So Ghenna fire is a fire that is an unprofitable burning . . . those kids that burned in that fire profited nothing.  Those that experience Ghenna fire are unprofitable in their doctrines and walk.  They are in a fire that carnality brought on itself

:thumbsup:

the SONS of MEN likened to the Carnal mind which PROFITS nothing  as were the Jews who stood in accusation-? :sigh:

Psa 57:4 My soul [is] among lions: [and] I lie [even among] them that are set on fire, [even] the sons of men, whose teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword.


Psa 35:17   Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the lions.  

Psa 58:6 Break their teeth, O God, in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the young lions, O LORD.

as for The Fear In torment ? for mine bro  , is to BE cut off for a season  :sigh:


Psa 9:20 Put them in fear, O LORD: [that] the nations may know themselves [to be but] men. Selah.

as IS Babylon= Old Jerusalem= mixing of Flesh with Spirit= Christ yet to be revealed from Behind the Veil , as when REVEALED the Lord is NOT of Confusion
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
:icon_flower:

[Taffy]

As i youd be well aware Nate- The Levites would wash their Hands and FEETwithin the Laver of Bronze before entering the Inner court---Are we NOW the WORK of HIS HANDS?-For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"

so were Christs words in Math Hyperbole as we have been told many times-- Me thinks NOT come Cutting off your feet etc-

the Eyes pertaining to UNDERSTANDING , what PROFIT was in the Understanding of the LAW being the REALITY not the Shadow---well NOTHING- :sigh:

We are Now HIS feet of BRASS [ through HIS judgment] who walk out the Gospel, those being created into HIS image-

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
:icon_flower:

[Molly]

wow!  :mshock:

[thinktank]

The valley of dead bones?. It is flesh that gets destroyed not, spirits in eternal torment.

Before this event mankind will uttery rebel against God and mount a giant army to kill him.

This army will be destoyed by God in the valley of ghenna, which is located outside of Jerusalem.

[Nathan]

I really don't think that's going to happen at all.  I think it's taken out of context and misinterpreted . . . :2c:

[thinktank]

Perhaps, but there is huge support for it. The timings, and many scriptures, and does look likely to happen, unless all of makind repents, but I think there will allways be a stiff necked people, that refuse Gods grace and would rather fight against him.

In terms of destiny it is an exciting battle between good and evil and God can show off his military might by smashing his enemies to pieces. I think most people in the world, enjoy a good fight and for the forces of good to unite and celebrate ultimate victory over evil.
:2c:

[WhiteWings]

For me it's simple. It happens or at least some books are as inspired as Obama's speech  :laughing7:
But..... I don't for example expect to see real horses with scorpion tails. So imo things will literally happen. But the things mentioned are symbolic for some other natural event.

Just a made up example. "An eagle will devour many of My people."
That for example could point to WW2/Hitler (German eagle)
Real event but the eagle is symbolic for Germany.

BTW: I fully accept that on top of that there are spiritual teachings.

[Aleax]

I do believe the current evil eon will end in a tribulation, and the 1000 year kingdom will end in the battle of Armageddon. You may ask why so pessimistic? Because it's happened before. The very first eon ended in disruption as 1/3 of teh angels rebelled. Another two of the early eons ended in Adam and Eve getting banned from the garden, and with God flooding the earth, respectively. Ends of the eons often seem to be failures.

The timings, and many scriptures, and does look likely to happen, unless all of makind repents, but I think there will allways be a stiff necked people, that refuse Gods grace and would rather fight against him.

I've come to see the tribulation more as something "the powers that be" (global elite) will one day trigger, instead of an act of God. One day they will go too far and start the third world war. I'm afraid it's more a matter of years than decades now as we speak.

The notion of judgement doesn't have to be excluded, though. Maybe God will be turning a blind eye for a few years, because of all the evil we've done?

[Nathan]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.