QuoteI have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. There simply is no evidence to support the idea, but because it seems a reasonable explanation for the origin of the Hinnom Valley as "hell," writers and preachers accept and propagate the story.
http://blog.bibleplaces.com/2011/04/myth-of-burning-garbage-dump-of-gehenna.html
Every now and then I'm reminded why I hate God.
We love him, because he first loved us. I John 4:19
But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Please pray for nf. NF, any of the members will be happy to talk with you in private if we can help.
Call on Him.
Hold My Heart
How long must I pray, must I pray to You
How long must I wait, must I wait for You
How long 'till I see Your face
See You shining through
I'm on my knees
Begging You to notice me
I'm on my knees
Father, will You turn to me, yeah?
One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?
One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?
I've been so afraid, afraid to close my eyes
So much can slip away before I say goodbye
But if there's no other way
I'm done asking why
'Cause I'm on my knees
Begging You to turn to me
I'm on my knees
Father, will You run to me, yeah?
One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?
One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?
So many questions without answers
Your promises remain
I can't see but I'll take my chances
To hear You call my name
To hear You call my name
One tear in the dropping rain
One voice in a sea of pain
Could the Maker of the stars
Hear the sound of my breaking heart?
One life is all I am
Right now I can barely stand
If You're everything You say You are
Would You come close and hold my heart?
Hold my heart
Could You hold my heart?
Hold my heart (Donehey, Michael; Ingram, Jason David; Larue, Phillip;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry6udsW9leA
I don't really follow the writer's logic, that because sacrifices occurred there, it therefor means it was not a garbage dump and/or was definitely symbolic of "the destiny of the wicked". I personally think he talks in a confusing circle, and I don't think what he says means that God is at fault for that.
Now beautiful, I believe Gehenna was a filthy, nasty place, where garbage was thrown - as well as the bodies of the Jewish elite who were judged in 70 AD. But that situation and condition was temporal, as they will be raised and restored, brought to God through the Messiah, Yesu - when "all Israel shall be saved".
QuoteIsaiah 66:24 (ESV) — "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."
Dead bodies? How can this be describing everlasting conscious torment? In my opinion, using this verse as a "proof" is backfiring on the author. This passage is, as far as I know, about the punishment of Gehenna being re-instituted during the Millennial Kingdom. The bodies of those who receive the capital punishment will be thrown there to be burned.
QuoteMarcos - you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. It was Jesus who said, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46).
Check the previous verses.
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. If Matthew 25:46 is about the Final Judgement, then the timing is off by a thousand years. Christ won't return to earth to execute the final judgement, he will return to establish a kingdom for a millennium.
Quote from: jabcat on April 13, 2011, 11:16:39 AM
I don't really follow the writer's logic, that because sacrifices occurred there, it therefor means it was not a garbage dump and/or was definitely symbolic of "the destiny of the wicked". I personally think he talks in a confusing circle, and I don't think what he says means that God is at fault for that.
Now beautiful, I believe Gehenna was a filthy, nasty place, where garbage was thrown - as well as the bodies of the Jewish elite who were judged in 70 AD. But that situation and condition was temporal, as they will be raised and restored, brought to God through the Messiah, Yesu - when "all Israel shall be saved".
I don't really follow the writers argument as well. If you read just the verses, it appears to be a stretch to say that is the place where all of mankind goes to be burned forever. How it reads is punishment for a particular group of people. A judgment that lead to death. To me, it's irrelevant whether this is a garbage dump.
Yeah, he's posting in comments about how Jesus and the Bible talk about eternal punishment. Sad, really.
I left a comment, hopefully he has ears to hear.
Hi
1 Cor 15;22 " For just as in the Adam ALL die;
so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive."
Where is hell in that?
Only those in Christ will be made alive....
All = all believers.
That's the common argument.
It's still all about perspectives though. If you believe in torment, all you'll see are eferences to torment. If you believe in grace, all you'll see are references to grace.
So . . .say the guy is right . . say that Ghenna was never a garbage dump but that it was a place ONLY where men worshiped other gods by burning their children to them . . . how does one make the jump from that to a comparison that it's a place of eternal torment? God didn't burn those kids, men did. God didn't instruct them to, they did it out of their own perverted hearts. If anything, I believe it's our own choices that dictate whether or not we experience hell. And even then . . . where to they get the "never ending torment" part? Those kids that were sacrificed there . . .they burned and died shortly thereafter . . no continual torture . . .once there's nothing left to consume, the fire goes out . .and if anything, the guy in the article was actually PROVING that Ghenna was not an eternal place of torment.
It's all in the perspective of the individual.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2011, 04:34:45 PM
Only those in Christ will be made alive....
All = all believers.
That's the common argument.
As soon as you see it as prophecy, that rendition goes out the window.
..so also in the Christ shall ALL be made alive." ...for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
--Rev 19:10
in the Christ --> See you must be in Christ
Rephrased:
- Everyone that is in Christ will be saved.
- Those in Christ will all be saved.
:icon_flower: Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
An Atomic Bomb no doubt? :sigh:
If thy EYES cause you to sin or YOUR feet or Right hand ? better to cast it into Gehenna FIRE then have your WHOLE body Burn? such is symbolism-
Gehenna Consumed Flesh OFFERED to IDOLS such as Molech?- :sigh:
Gehenna By comparrison is a Place to BURN that which is unproftable- Its Likened to the CARNAL tongue spoken in James- The Tongue which SPEAKS The Unprofitable- likened to the Ministry of DEATH [ speaking words Of Judgment] as we see by example the RICHMAN who was TORMENTED in the Flames ,His Tongue a FIRE :sigh:
James 1:26 If any man among you """"seem to be religious""" and bridleth NOT HIS TONGUE, but "deceiveth his own heart" this man's religion IS VAIN.
LIVING as an ENEMY of the GOSPEL disobedience and its being VAIN connected to the TONGUE.
For they ~SPEAK AGAINST~ thee wickedly, and thine enemies take ~THY NAME~ IN VAIN.
its seems if one could TAME the TONGUE the Body would BE "WHOLE"?
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man and able also to bridle the whole body.
--- Gehenna Fire the Abode of the Unprofitable :sigh:
the casting of the Unprofitable servant into OUTER darkness?
Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. :icon_flower:
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 13, 2011, 05:41:27 PM
in the Christ --> See you must be in Christ
Rephrased:
- Everyone that is in Christ will be saved.
- Those in Christ will all be saved.
No because the prophecy part is
..shall ALL be made alive."The 'in Christ' is just telling you how that is going to happen.
Quote from: Taffy on April 13, 2011, 06:29:41 PM
:icon_flower: Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
An Atomic Bomb no doubt? :sigh:
If thy EYES cause you to sin or YOUR feet or Right hand ? better to cast it into Gehenna FIRE then have your WHOLE body Burn? such is symbolism-
Gehenna Consumed Flesh OFFERED to IDOLS such as Molech?- :sigh:
Gehenna By comparrison is a Place to BURN that which is unproftable- Its Likened to the CARNAL tongue spoken in James- The Tongue which SPEAKS The Unprofitable- likened to the Ministry of DEATH [ speaking words Of Judgment] as we see by example the RICHMAN who was TORMENTED in the Flames ,His Tongue a FIRE :sigh:
James 1:26 If any man among you """"seem to be religious""" and bridleth NOT HIS TONGUE, but "deceiveth his own heart" this man's religion IS VAIN.
LIVING as an ENEMY of the GOSPEL disobedience and its being VAIN connected to the TONGUE.
For they ~SPEAK AGAINST~ thee wickedly, and thine enemies take ~THY NAME~ IN VAIN.
its seems if one could TAME the TONGUE the Body would BE "WHOLE"?
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man and able also to bridle the whole body.
--- Gehenna Fire the Abode of the Unprofitable :sigh:
the casting of the Unprofitable servant into OUTER darkness?
Tts 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. :icon_flower:
Great post Taf!!!
So Ghenna fire is a fire that is an unprofitable burning . . . those kids that burned in that fire profited nothing. Those that experience Ghenna fire are unprofitable in their doctrines and walk. They are in a fire that carnality brought on itself . . .I'm just thinking out loud here . . .not sure of any of this . . .sometimes it helps if I put things in print to see how it flows.
Ghenna is the reference used when Jesus stated "Upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell . . .the authority of unprofitable destruction can not prevail against it.
It's better to enter into the kingdom with one eye than to enter into meaningless destruction with both eyes.
Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into needless destruction
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of meaningless destruction than yourselves.
Hmmm . . .
QuoteSo Ghenna fire is a fire that is an unprofitable burning . . . those kids that burned in that fire profited nothing. Those that experience Ghenna fire are unprofitable in their doctrines and walk. They are in a fire that carnality brought on itself
:thumbsup:
the SONS of MEN likened to the Carnal mind which PROFITS nothing as were the Jews who stood in accusation-? :sigh:
Psa 57:4 My
soul [is]
among lions: [and] I lie [even among]
them that are set on fire, [even] the
sons of men, whose
teeth [are] spears and arrows, and their tongue a sharp sword. Psa 35:17 Lord, how long wilt thou look on? rescue my soul from their destructions, my darling from the
lions. Psa 58:6
Break their teeth, O God,
in their mouth: break out the great teeth of the
young lions, O LORD.
as for The Fear In torment ? for mine bro , is to BE cut off for a season :sigh:
Psa 9:20 Put them in fear, O LORD: [that] the nations may know themselves [to be but
] men. Selah.
as IS Babylon= Old Jerusalem= mixing of Flesh with Spirit= Christ
yet to be revealed from Behind the Veil , as when REVEALED the
Lord is NOT of ConfusionRev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Rev 18:15 The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
:icon_flower:
As i youd be well aware Nate- The Levites would wash their Hands and FEETwithin the Laver of Bronze before entering the Inner court---Are we NOW the WORK of HIS HANDS?-For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them"
so were Christs words in Math Hyperbole as we have been told many times-- Me thinks NOT come Cutting off your feet etc-
the Eyes pertaining to UNDERSTANDING , what PROFIT was in the Understanding of the LAW being the REALITY not the Shadow---well NOTHING- :sigh:
We are Now HIS feet of BRASS [ through HIS judgment] who walk out the Gospel, those being created into HIS image-
Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
:icon_flower:
wow! :mshock:
The valley of dead bones?. It is flesh that gets destroyed not, spirits in eternal torment.
Before this event mankind will uttery rebel against God and mount a giant army to kill him.
This army will be destoyed by God in the valley of ghenna, which is located outside of Jerusalem.
I really don't think that's going to happen at all. I think it's taken out of context and misinterpreted . . . :2c:
Perhaps, but there is huge support for it. The timings, and many scriptures, and does look likely to happen, unless all of makind repents, but I think there will allways be a stiff necked people, that refuse Gods grace and would rather fight against him.
In terms of destiny it is an exciting battle between good and evil and God can show off his military might by smashing his enemies to pieces. I think most people in the world, enjoy a good fight and for the forces of good to unite and celebrate ultimate victory over evil.
:2c:
For me it's simple. It happens or at least some books are as inspired as Obama's speech :laughing7:
But..... I don't for example expect to see real horses with scorpion tails. So imo things will literally happen. But the things mentioned are symbolic for some other natural event.
Just a made up example. "An eagle will devour many of My people."
That for example could point to WW2/Hitler (German eagle)
Real event but the eagle is symbolic for Germany.
BTW: I fully accept that on top of that there are spiritual teachings.
I do believe the current evil eon will end in a tribulation, and the 1000 year kingdom will end in the battle of Armageddon. You may ask why so pessimistic? Because it's happened before. The very first eon ended in disruption as 1/3 of teh angels rebelled. Another two of the early eons ended in Adam and Eve getting banned from the garden, and with God flooding the earth, respectively. Ends of the eons often seem to be failures.
Quote from: thinktankThe timings, and many scriptures, and does look likely to happen, unless all of makind repents, but I think there will allways be a stiff necked people, that refuse Gods grace and would rather fight against him.
I've come to see the tribulation more as something "the powers that be" (global elite) will one day trigger, instead of an act of God. One day they will go too far and start the third world war. I'm afraid it's more a matter of years than decades now as we speak.
The notion of judgement doesn't have to be excluded, though. Maybe God will be turning a blind eye for a few years, because of all the evil we've done?
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
QuoteIn terms of destiny it is an exciting battle between good and evil and God can show off his military might by smashing his enemies to pieces. I think most people in the world, enjoy a good fight and for the forces of good to unite and celebrate ultimate victory over evil.
Eph 6:12 For we
wrestle not against
flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. :icon_flower:
2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 11:04:00 PM
2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?
:thumbsup:
A single star even coming near (astronomical speaking) will be the end....
Dunno what it means. Perhaps this: http://www.finalevents.com/Event1/Sign06.asp?p=O
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
Again :thumbsup:
stars falling to earth could be angels , the sky opening like scroll to me is when the curtain is pulled back that separates the physical world from the spiritual. wormwood is what we're seeing in Japan right now, poisoning of the seas.
Cardinal (I believe) talks about the two Bibles one spiritual, one natural. I believe that the natural events that are the symbols for the spiritual of revelation (and other "end time" events) will happen otherwise both Bibles won't be fulfilled. To me I see the end time bringing the natural and spiritual together, so while there is a huge move of the revelation of Jesus within people, and all those spiritual battles happening, the beast (self) in your holy of holies and all that, at the same time a natural beast will arise. I wonder if much of the tribulation is when worlds collide, as the realm of life comes crashing into the realm of knowledge of good and evil until there is no more separation between the realms.
The biggest issue I have with saying the natural doesn't matter, then did the events of the OT actually happen? Is the entire Bible an allegory? with no historical value?
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.
We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 11:04:00 PM
2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?
Yes, but if that mind decides to create a scientific device inspired by the devil, to attack and destroy God and His saints, is that emnity against God?
What will God do with such a mind?
Quote from: thinktank on April 14, 2011, 12:37:18 AM
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.
We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.
the Unseen is MADE known by those things MADE---Rom 1-21 :icon_flower:
wormwood [bitter]is Likened to Turning Back\into DEATH= SIN---Amo 5:7Jer 9:13-15, Deu 29:14-18, Rev 8:10-11 :icon_flower:
Amo 5:7 Ye who
turn judgment to
wormwood, and
leave off righteousness in the EARTHPro 5:1 My son,
attend unto my wisdom, [and] bow thine
ear to my understanding: Pro 5:2 That thou mayest regard discretion, and [that] thy lips may keep knowledge.
Pro 5:3 For the lips of a
strange woman drop [as] an honeycomb, and her mouth [is] smoother than oil:
Pro 5:4 But
her end is bitter as
wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword. Ecc 7:25 I applied mine heart to know, and to search, and to seek out wisdom, and the reason [of things], and to know the
wickedness of folly, even of foolishness [and] madness: Ecc 7:26 And I find more
bitter than death the woman, whose
heart [is] snares and nets, [and] her
hands [as] bands: whoso
pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the
sinner shall be taken by her Pro 5:5 Her
feet go down to death; her
steps take hold on hell. :sigh:
WHY woman or women? The Lord sees all
FLESH as female :icon_flower:
QuoteThe biggest issue I have with saying the natural doesn't matter, then did the events of the OT actually happen? Is the entire Bible an allegory? with no historical value?
The OT is Vieled while the NT unviels - First the Natural as In the SHADOW\TYPE or pattern made KNOWN [The Spiritual gives LIFE] in The NEW-- such happenings [ OLD\natural\ Physical ]were to\for our admonition--- :icon_flower:
Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...
Lets see:
noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",
hmmmm.........................................so God saw the sacrifices of children to a false god, and it hits Him, yeah thats what to do, burn eternally the ones I can't turn................................. :sigh:
Quote from: thinktank on April 14, 2011, 12:41:50 AM
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 11:04:00 PM
2 Corintians 10
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ
Images of the MINDS . . . .source of carnality is in the mind that is at enmity against God . . .no?
Yes, but if that mind decides to create a scientific device inspired by the devil, to attack and destroy God and His saints, is that emnity against God?
What will God do with such a mind?
As the Carnal Mind is DEATH--- then it to will perish like all MINDS who dwell within the Grave- :icon_flower:
Quote from: lookingup on April 14, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...
Lets see:
noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",
hmmmm.........................................so God saw the sacrifices of children to a false god, and it hits Him, yeah thats what to do, burn eternally the ones I can't turn................................. :sigh:
if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews :sigh:- where does it state ALL mankind?
Quote from: lookingup on April 14, 2011, 01:31:58 AM
Jeremiah 7:31–32 (ESV)
31 And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. 32 Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when ...
Lets see:
noted the bolded part,"nor did it come to my mind",
This, I think, is the key idea that Jesus would have associated with Gehenna.
Acts 17:28
For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Would God bring children into the world, only to have them burn in a fire?
Doug
Gehenna in the 'Love Wins' controversy (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/03/30/gehenna-in-the-love-wins-controversy/)
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 01:36:44 AM
if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?
Doug
Gehenna in Mark 9:43-48 (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/gehenna-in-mark-943-48/)
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
When a scroll is rolled together, the rotation of the spindles stops. That pictures what happened in the scientific revolution. The heavens were thought to have been revolving around the earth; this ceased when the diurnal rotation was assigned to the earth.
Stars falling could picture the idea of universal gravitation. According to this principle, everything in the universe "falls" down. The moon "falls" to the earth; the sun and moon and planets all "fall" towards each other; in fact, every particle in the universe "falls" to every other mass.
These things were discovered by Newton, but were foretold long ago by Isaiah, in chapter 34.
Doug
The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/the-bishop-the-ghost-and-gehenna/)
Quote from: Doug on April 14, 2011, 04:00:30 AM
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 01:36:44 AM
if anyone has noticed - the Only folk who were to take Part in Gehenna within the NT- were the Religious fraction of their DAY-namely the Jews
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?
Doug
Gehenna in Mark 9:43-48 (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/gehenna-in-mark-943-48/)
One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day - as for SPEAKING with the the Tongue Of Gehenna-this being mention in an earlier posting- :icon_flower:
I dare say there were quite a few in their day who cut off their feet,hand and plucked out their eyes--- if this all is literal :sigh:
Origen was a literal guy. He cut off his family jewels to control his lust...(http://th62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/th_scissors.gif)
BTW cutting of hands and feet has nothing to do with literal. It's part of a teaching method called "light and heavy" that was used by all Rabbies at that time (and long before/after). A similar teaching is: Taffy change the oil in your car when the temp runs up slightly.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2011, 01:27:00 PM
Origen was a literal guy. He cut off his family jewels to control his lust...(http://th62.photobucket.com/albums/h98/Sid401k/th_scissors.gif)
BTW cutting of hands and feet has nothing to do with literal. It's part of a teaching method called "light and heavy" that was used by all Rabbies at that time (and long before/after). A similar teaching is: Taffy change the oil in your car when the temp runs up slightly.
Dont you find it odd thatChrist Never spoke a Word in PUBLIC lest it be in Parables [Mar 4:34 ]- Math 5 and there were times when even speaking to the disciples ALONE they still did not understand -Math 18-
The feet hands eye are shown in the Natural which bears witness to the Spiritual come the New- Hence theres always a witness- and that WITNESS is Not mans Private interpretation- Blessings :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 12:48:32 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 14, 2011, 04:00:30 AM
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?
One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -
In most cases where
Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.
Doug
Jewish fables about Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/jewish-fables-about-gehenna/)
Quote from: Doug on April 14, 2011, 02:18:44 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 12:48:32 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 14, 2011, 04:00:30 AM
James 3:6
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Gehenna.
Do you really think this is limited to the first century Jews?
One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -
In most cases where Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.
Doug
Jewish fables about Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/12/jewish-fables-about-gehenna/)
WELL AMEN DOUG- as mentioned those who were to take part were the religious fraction of the DAY- :icon_flower:
I think there are roughly 3 groups in the Bible.
1] Spiritual things. Often 'hidden' in 2 and 3
2] Literal events. Jesus was really on the cross. Literal rain of fire on Sodom.
3] As-if teachings. Literal events with symbolic names. Jesus was sacrificed like a lamb (=literal). But symbolic because He was no animal AND because calling Him a Lamb summarizes half of the OT.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2011, 02:25:47 PM
I think there are roughly 3 groups in the Bible.
1] Spiritual things. Often 'hidden' in 2 and 3
2] Literal events. Jesus was really on the cross. Literal rain of fire on Sodom.
3] As-if teachings. Literal events with symbolic names. Jesus was sacrificed like a lamb (=literal). But symbolic because He was no animal AND because calling Him a Lamb summarizes half of the OT.
Look up the acronym
PARDES--- :icon_flower:
No ones throwing the literal take out the water-
heres Just one ex WW- why does Paul mention the sound of Pipes and harps?
Is he literally meaning a Harp
1Cr 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
Or does the HARP which David Played have greater meaning? 22 strings on a Harp? 22 letters to the Hebrew alphabet= 22, 000 Levites who worked the Tabernacle-- 22 bowls upon the Candlestick in the TEMPLE filled with OIL- Light= to Prohesy on a HARP and Open a RIDDLE[ Parable?]
Psa 49:4 I will incline mine ear to a parable: I will open my dark saying[ RIDDLE] upon the harp.
Just as the Carnal Eyes see only the Black and white , surely doesnt mean thats ALL there is to SEE--- :icon_flower: even if some cant see it -- doesnt negate the fact theres more then what meets the EYE[ UNDERSTANDING]
I can remember a thread about PARDES but that's about it.
Funny you mention 22. I wrote something about it yesterday: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/order_books_9404.msg120051.html#msg120051
Page 56-64
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 02:22:49 PM
Quote from: Doug on April 14, 2011, 02:18:44 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 12:48:32 PM
One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -
In most cases where Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.
WELL AMEN DOUG- as mentioned those who were to take part were the religious fraction of the DAY- :icon_flower:
All Jews were religious.
The specific warnings about plucking out your eye, or cutting off your hand or foot, were to his disciples.
The warning about not calling your brother a "fool" applies to Christians of every age.
IMO, nothing Jesus said about
Gehenna specifically applies to events of 70 AD.
How would plucking out their
right eye help any Jew to escape from Roman armies in the siege?
How would cutting off their
hand or their
foot help any one of them escape?
IMO, Jesus was
not referring to preserving their physical lives, as he said:
Luke 17:33
Whoever may seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whoever may lose it, shall preserve it.
Doug
The land promise in the New Covenant (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/10/the-land-promise-in-the-new-covenant/)
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 14, 2011, 02:39:20 PM
I can remember a thread about PARDES but that's about it.
Funny you mention 22. I wrote something about it yesterday: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/order_books_9404.msg120051.html#msg120051
Page 56-64
Taken a breif perusal but not looked at it fully--- 22 is a Symbol of LIGHT.. Christ is the LIGHT of the WORLD-- the WHOLE 22 letters on the HARP reveal the LIGHT which IS HIM-- Light means to reveal , Make known etc-When one prophesies, we SPEAK HIS NAME--
Saul was comforted by David playing off the HARP-- and such evil spirits left him- :HeartThrob:
QuoteThe warning about not calling= to SAY= speak with the TONGUE your brother a "fool" applies to Christians of every age.
seems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR? :sigh:
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be
condemned: behold,
the judge standeth before the door. what door?what Judge? :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 03:11:18 PM
what door?what Judge? :HeartThrob:
Jesus said,
John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Jesus is the judge.
Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Doug
Hope in Gehenna? (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/07/hope-in-gehenna/)
Quoteseems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR?
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
THE LORD Is "THE DOOR"but Not this Door Doug
we condemn ourselves with our OWN words due to Judgment upon OTHERS- HENCE JUDGE NOT OTHERS lest YOU be judged- :mshock:
Psalm 141:3 Set a
WATCH, O LORD, before my mouth;
keep THE DOOR of my lips.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That
every idle[ BARREN] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by
thy words thou shalt be justified, and by
thy words thou shalt be condemned. Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well,
sin lieth at
THE DOOR. And unto
thee shall be his desire, and
thou shalt rule over him.= such is that Little member that NO MAN can RULE-
wE eat OUR OWN words,by sin ENTERING IN.. or that which defiles a Man is what comes out
so is the tongue among our members, that it
DEFILETH THE WHOLE BODY, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on
fire OF HELL. -
bUT HE WHO IS"PERFECT
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT
~IN WORD~, """the same is
a perfect man and able also to
bridle the whole body. The Unprofitable Tongue [ Carnal] will consume in the Mouth- even so Judgment is VERY much Now concerning How we JUDGE others-- as the LORD recompnces in the EARTH as HE did with the wicked servant--- we do INDEEDpay NOW for the SIN of our LIPS---Blessings :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 03:54:30 PM
Quoteseems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR?
Jam 5:9 Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
THE LORD Is "THE DOOR"but Not this Door Doug
we condemn ourselves with our OWN words due to Judgment upon OTHERS- HENCE JUDGE NOT OTHERS lest YOU be judged- :mshock:
Psalm 141:3 Set a WATCH, O LORD, before my mouth; keep THE DOOR of my lips.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle[ BARREN] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at THE DOOR. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.= such is that Little member that NO MAN can RULE-
wE eat OUR OWN words,by sin ENTERING IN.. or that which defiles a Man is what comes out
so is the tongue among our members, that it DEFILETH THE WHOLE BODY, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire OF HELL. -
bUT HE WHO IS"PERFECT
James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man and able also to bridle the whole body.
The Unprofitable Tongue [ Carnal] will consume in the Mouth- even so Judgment is VERY much Now concerning How we JUDGE others-- as the LORD recompnces in the EARTH as HE did with the wicked servant--- we do INDEEDpay NOW for the SIN of our LIPS---Blessings :icon_flower:
Another "door" is mentioned in Revelation.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
There are 12 gates in the wall of the holy city, each gate a single pearl. [Revelation 21:21]
Being cast into
Gehenna, the valley located outside Jerusalem, is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus warned the Pharisees about "the judgment of Gehenna." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom. Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King." [Matthew 5:35] So the threat of
Gehenna applies to the saints, those in the church, and to those who hear the gospel preached, (like those Pharisees) rather than to the world, and those who have not been called by God. One has to be
in the holy city, to be cast
out of it.
Doug
Gehenna applies to the church, not the world (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/03/gehenna-applies-to-the-church-not-the-world/)
Quote." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.
ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 04:21:16 PM
Quote." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.
ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:
Amen.
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 12:47:44 AM
Quote from: thinktank on April 14, 2011, 12:37:18 AM
Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2011, 10:35:23 PM
But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen. Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it. Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.
Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.
We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.
the Unseen is MADE known by those things MADE---Rom 1-21 :icon_flower:
TT
I am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me.
I guess we got a bit :offtopic: ... anyway, Nightflight, if you're reading this, did you get my PM?
QuoteI am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me
Not at all- Just sharing one perception TT - tis ALL-- your at Liberty to share what you THINK-- so please let me be at Lberty to share likewise--- :icon_flower:
Blessings :icon_flower:
Quote from: Aleax on April 14, 2011, 10:20:15 PM
I guess we got a bit :offtopic: ... anyway, Nightflight, if you're reading this, did you get my PM?
Indeed it has somewhat Aleax- like many other threads which tend to go a Little of base-- Over the Yrs we have tried to give some leeway , as Long as it doesnt venture into a Food fight betwen two individuals who end up consuming the thread :icon_flower:
Bl;essings :icon_flower:
It's perfectly okay. I'm not angry at all, even if the off topic emoticon seems to be. :laughing7:
Quote from: Aleax on April 14, 2011, 11:12:52 PM
It's perfectly okay. I'm not angry at all, even if the off topic emoticon seems to be. :laughing7:
:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:
Personally I never have seen a single quote of a trash dump by someone who lived near Jesus time.
Neither have I read anything about archelogical finds.
Same topic in this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/gehenna_not_trash_dump_8555.msg102617.html#msg102617
^ I'd have to agree with him to an extent.
That said, I haven't really seen any convincing evidence that (an endless) Hell was a part of teh Old Covenant, either.
Let's try to use some logic here. If (an endless) Hell wasn't a part of the Old Covenant, but was first introduced by Jesus, how could one EVER call the New Covenant "the better Covenant" ?
Not ET is not in OT. But in the long run it's best to only accept what is proven. Gehenna may sound nice from an UR p.o.v.
The question is: Are you looking for something that sounds nice or something that's true?
We must try not fall in the same fantasy trap as the ETs did.
If you not already did so read the thread I linked above.
It has a few biths of good info.
Bed time for me. :lazy:
Aleax, along that same lines, if ET is true then the Old Covenant is worse than nothing because "sin is not counted where there is no law". I used to get mad when I would read this portion of Romans. "God why did you even give the law then and make everyone guilty".
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 10:33:15 PM
QuoteI am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me
Not at all- Just sharing one perception TT - tis ALL-- your at Liberty to share what you THINK-- so please let me be at Lberty to share likewise--- :icon_flower:
Blessings :icon_flower:
But your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.
QuoteBut your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.
:icon_flower:
The Literal is there for all to read TT--and For sure no ones throwing the baby out the water---if you google the web for the acronym PARDES you may find theres more then one level the scriptures can be understood :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 14, 2011, 04:21:16 PM
Quote." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.
ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:
Jerusalem and
Gehenna are two key geographical locations in the promised land, crucial for understanding the Gospel, and the mysteries of present and future judgment.
The valley of Hinnom is located outside the walls of Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the city of the great king." [Matthew 5:35] It represents the condition of those who are cast out of the city, being accounted unworthy to enter his kingdom. Jesus encouraged disciples of all ages to seek to enter the kingdom, which Jerusalem represents. His warnings about
Gehenna apply especially to Christians, who have come to "Mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem." [Hebrews 12:22]
Gehenna is not a threat for people who were never called, and who never heard the gospel, because one has to be
in the holy city, to be cast
out of it.
Jesus connected
Gehenna with the right eye, the right hand, and foot. James connected
Gehenna with the tongue. In Revelation 20:4, those who are beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, reign with Christ. Paul said, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." [Romans 12:1]
In Jesus' teaching about
Gehenna, he compared losing body parts to salvation, and preserving one's soul. [Matthew 5:29-30; 18:8-9] The eye was given special notice.
There are several scriptures that refer to the eye in the New Testament. In some, the eye is related to understanding the gospel.
An "evil eye" is something that Jesus said defiles a man. [Mark 7:22]
Peter spoke of men whose eyes were "full of adultery." [2 Peter 2:14]
Jesus spoke of the man whose eye contains a "beam," yet he attempts to remove a "mote" from the eye of a brother. [Luke 6:41-42]
Jesus referred to the eye as the "light" of the body. This light must refer to understanding the gospel. He said, "The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness." [Luke 11:34]
John called Jesus the light of men, who "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9-12]
Those who don't believe his gospel, are said to be blinded. [John 12:39-41]
Paul was called to a ministry of opening the eyes of Gentiles, and turning them from darkness to light. [Acts 26:15-19]
The eye is also mentioned in Jesus' message to the churches. To Laodicea he said:
Revelation 3:17-18
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
He does not tell them to pluck out their eyes, but to anoint them.
To the saints of Philadelphia he promised, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." [Revelation 3:10]
What is the hour of trial? Most likely, I think, it refers to the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14. The first group in the chapter, those who are sealed, are exempt, as they are included in the heavenly Jerusalem. Those who miss out are among the great multitude in the second category, "which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," and of whom John said, "the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." [Revelation 7:17]
Doug
Darkening the sun (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/darkening-the-sun/)
- Doug
why the semantics-- PLUCK means Pull out=DELIVER ,Anoint= Rub in [ WITHOIL]the LIGHT which Christ is BEING the EYESALVE as with saul\Paul removing the scales[ PRIDE] from HIS EYES which caused the BLINDNESS--- PRIDE is DEATH-
Lets put it this way Bro-- all that which is witHin being the Flesh= Carnal MIND = DEATH will be cast out\shed\no more \dead\perished\etc etc LEAVING ONLY HIM= SPIRIT= LIFE--- hence we are NO longer FLESH but SPIRIT- :icon_flower:
Blessings :icon_flower:
--
QuoteBecause thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Or maybe the APPOINTED time for Others who through tribulation[ pressing in] is YET to COME---- you know like Paul who too came to SEE the TRUTH through Trial and Tribulation--- :icon_flower:
The eye is also the window to your soul . . .direct connection to our minds . .which in and of themselves are full of emnity . . .which is connected to what Taf has been saying about Ghenna burning the carnality of man . . renewing of our minds is the same principle. But it's not to be purged, burned, purified through a fire of our choosing . . .there aer "strange" fires out there that I believe it's possible that that's what Ghenna may be referring to. A fire cultivated by man, for man's personal gratification.
Someone posted in this thread the Scriptures that reveal God didn't start this fire, nor did it even cross his mind. It's a strange fire. A fire of another source. It's patterned after the fire of Aaron's two sons who got drunk (also related to the mind) and got their fire from another source and tried to blend their fire in with the rest of them who were celebrating the true fire and it got them killed. Ghenna was a fire created by godless men who were fooled into thinking they would appease "their" god. In Rob Bell's new book, he has a really profound saying that he repeats several times. He says "We shape our god, and then let our god shape us.
It's what religion has done from it's conception. We've created an image of God and then we let that image dictate our freedom. These boys of Ghenna did the same exact thing. They burned a fire, not ordained by God, and then they let there god murder their kids. But the beauty . .and miracle is, God took the Ghenna fire and reversed it's purpose. Instead of destroying people, now, it's a principle that reveals how his fire destroys carnality in people. It's what I've said all along. God isn't out to destroy men, he's out to destroy the man in men. Huge difference, it goes from a message of fear and intimidation, to one of acceptance and celebration.
Quote from: Nathan on April 15, 2011, 06:28:08 PM
The eye is also the window to your soul . . .direct connection to our minds . .which in and of themselves are full of emnity . . .which is connected to what Taf has been saying about Ghenna burning the carnality of man . . renewing of our minds is the same principle. But it's not to be purged, burned, purified through a fire of our choosing . . .there aer "strange" fires out there that I believe it's possible that that's what Ghenna may be referring to. A fire cultivated by man, for man's personal gratification.
Someone posted in this thread the Scriptures that reveal God didn't start this fire, nor did it even cross his mind. It's a strange fire. A fire of another source. It's patterned after the fire of Aaron's two sons who got drunk (also related to the mind) and got their fire from another source and tried to blend their fire in with the rest of them who were celebrating the true fire and it got them killed. Ghenna was a fire created by godless men who were fooled into thinking they would appease "their" god. In Rob Bell's new book, he has a really profound saying that he repeats several times. He says "We shape our god, and then let our god shape us.
It's what religion has done from it's conception. We've created an image of God and then we let that image dictate our freedom. These boys of Ghenna did the same exact thing. They burned a fire, not ordained by God, and then they let there god murder their kids. But the beauty . .and miracle is, God took the Ghenna fire and reversed it's purpose. Instead of destroying people, now, it's a principle that reveals how his fire destroys carnality in people. It's what I've said all along. God isn't out to destroy men, he's out to destroy the man in men. Huge difference, it goes from a message of fear and intimidation, to one of acceptance and celebration.
:icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 15, 2011, 06:03:53 PM
QuoteBecause thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Or maybe the APPOINTED time for Others who through tribulation[ pressing in] is YET to COME---- you know like Paul who too came to SEE the TRUTH through Trial and Tribulation--- :icon_flower:
Yes, it could be referring to a time yet to come, maybe after Christ returns, and the judgment begins. [Revelation 11:18]
The contrast between the messages to Philadelphia and Laodicea seem to correspond to the contrast between Jerusalem and
Gehenna.
Of Laodicea he says, "I will spue thee out of my mouth," which fits the metaphor of being cast into
Gehenna.
Of Philadelphia he says, "and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God."
Doug
The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/13/the-bishop-the-ghost-and-gehenna/)
Quote from: Taffy on April 15, 2011, 01:28:42 PM
QuoteBut your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.
:icon_flower:
The Literal is there for all to read TT--
TT
From posts read here, and gereral doctrine/ideas in Christian dom, I honestly don't see that being the case at all.
Taffy
and For sure no ones throwing the baby out the water---if you google the web for the acronym PARDES you may find theres more then one level the scriptures can be understood :icon_flower:
TT
I am not against acronym pardes, only when it attempts to rise up and demand itself as superior to supernatural faith.
The danger of acronym parades is that it can side track the true message. I personally love acronym pardes, particualrly as it relates to how the old testament mirrors the new testament, but I don't like it when it tries to set itself up as being the superior compared to faith and revelation of the old testament message or the new testament message.
QuoteI am not against acronym pardes, only when it attempts to rise up and demand itself as superior to supernatural faith.The danger of acronym parades is that it can side track the true message. I personally love acronym pardes, particualrly as it relates to how the old testament mirrors the new testament, but I don't like it when it tries to set itself up as being the superior compared to faith and revelation of the old testament message or the new testament message.
TT
:icon_flower:
No ones RISING it up against faith bro-- Maybe consider the scrips as an Onion , just different layers BUT the
SAME ONION- the more layers you pull off the MORE the eyes are FILLED with WATER- :icon_flower:
I agree with Taf, but I don't mind pushing back just a little on this . . .I think it's really important that we understand the significance of spiritual observation as opposed to natural reasoning.
Trying to follow the jargon here, but if I'm understanding you right . . .then let me say that it's "through" faith that the revelation of these acronym parades (you mean "paradies"?) are given shape and continuity. They're called parables . . . Jesus used them ALL THE TIME. Apparently it IS a "superior" language as you say. Otherwise we'd not be told to walk in the spirit (higher) and not in the flesh (not higher). Or things like "he that hath an ear . .let him hear . . ." If we're being instructed to listen with spiritual ears and not natural ears, is that not an indication that more is being said than what is being literally said???
Jesus brought Peter, James and John up a high mountain to witness the transfiguration because it simply can not be observed from ground level.
Amen to that . . .and . . .only three of the twelve were "led UP" to SEE his true identity. And even after they saw, they were specifically instructed NOT to tell ANYONE else of what they heard and saw. Only a fraction of the church sees beyond the natural vision of things. In this realm . . .thank God, ONLY in this realm.
That's the other thing I noticed when I was passing through the Lot issue . . .when they first approached Abraham, he was also setting at an entrance . . .he was sitting at the door of his house and it literally says when he LIFTED HIS EYES . . .he SAW . . .and then the same thing happened with Lot . . .He LOOKED UP and SAW . . .before vision comes, the call to ascend comes ahead of it.
was it by chance it was AFTER 6 days HE took them to the Mountain-- :icon_flower:
YA know broAnd his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
His [b]Hair is as WHITE as snow[/b], His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire
hairs- wool?
Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
does not the LORD know the NUMBER of our HAIRS upon OUR HEAD?
The hairs of HEAD being OUR iniquities?
For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. :icon_flower:
I see the hairs as extensions of our heads . . .our heads represent our minds, our hair represent our "thoughts". Pure white hair . . .Holy and pure thoughts in a wholly renewed mind . . .for us . . .God's mind doesn't need renewing . . .it never ages.
He's the 'Rock" of ages . .but he never gets old . .I mean . . .sigh . .never mind.
:icon_flower:
Posted by: Nathan
« on: Today at 02:46:28 PM »
I agree with Taf, but I don't mind pushing back just a little on this . . .I think it's really important that we understand the significance of spiritual observation as opposed to natural reasoning.
Trying to follow the jargon here, but if I'm understanding you right . . .then let me say that it's "through" faith that the revelation of these acronym parades (you mean "paradies"?) are given shape and continuity. They're called parables . . . Jesus used them ALL THE TIME. Apparently it IS a "superior" language as you say. Otherwise we'd not be told to walk in the spirit (higher) and not in the flesh (not higher). Or things like "he that hath an ear . .let him hear . . ." If we're being instructed to listen with spiritual ears and not natural ears, is that not an indication that more is being said than what is being literally said???
TT
I understand that God requires faith and that faith allows us to see into Gods kingdom, as without faith it is impossible to please God, as the scripture says.
But I see a difference between faith and acronym pardes. Acronym pardes can be applied to anything in life, I see it being used a lot with artisitic commuinities. They discuss the symbolic meaning of paintings and each person who see's the painting has a different interpretation of the symbols, but none of this requires faith in God, but interpret based on natural reasoning as a lot of these artists are non believers.
Take for example the wise men and the astrologers of egypt. These people were spiritually wise, through their magic and sorceries, meditation, study etc and they were able to come up with some great truths and revelations from the spirit world, such as the positioning of the stars etc but much of this information is scrambled so to speak and is not so clear and accurate as a true Holy spirit revelation.
So the danger is that we might be as these artists trying to extract meaning out of scriptures that do not belong there and apply our own understanding to it, rather than let the holy spirit reveal the meaning of the scripture. Often the holy spirit uses the scripture in many different way to speak to us individually, and this often requires acronym pardes to go beyond the context of the scripture and apply it into our own personal life and experiences. But the danger is that we take our own personal revelation and apply it to the christian body as a whole, when the holy spirit often has a different message to the body as a whole.
Every dimension is relevant.
You've been very general in your generalizing . . .so . . .in what areas are you thinking that things have been portrayed as spiritual to the "church" that you don't think should have been?
It was a warning in general to lookout for it. But it came from a reply to the intial post concerning ghenna, because I posted that the ghenna was literal fire and not an eternal fire, I believed this was a great post to help the understanding to the person who posted this topic, but yet few replied that, such an interpretation was based on natural reasoning and the true interpretation is using pardes techniques to find the spiritual symbolic meaning.
In my view the literal destruction was being spiritual, based upon the many scriptures that talk about it. I find no problem if people want to go deeper and perhaps compare ghenna to the lake of fire and then link it to the scripture which say's God is a consuming fire, but to reply that ghenna being literal place of fire is based on natural reasoning is being presumptious, especially as the day of judgment ghenna fire does not negate or cancel UR, but could bring greater understanding as to what this ghenna scripture actually means in context of UR and could be of great help to those such as the person who posted this topic, who does not understand ghenna.
If that is your opinion concerning ghenna fair enough, but I am simply pointing it out, that just because something seems natural, doesn't mean it is based on carnal thinking. So I attempted to convey that the scriptures in Revelation is based upon supernatural, but yet now I get the reply that the natural mirrors the spiritual. It just seems to be that whatever angle I take, the reply is that is is based upon carnal reasoning. If I say it is a literal fire, then the reply is "It is carnal thinking"
If I say "supernatural fire" then reply is
"natural mirrors the spiritual so cannot be supernatural because, now the sky rolling together it does not make sense to my natural mind, therefore it is not truth, but yet if someone else posts something that sounds natural to my mind then it is based on carnal reasoning".
So I wrote what I wrote to be carefull of dissmising true revelation just because we don't like it.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 15, 2011, 10:52:06 PM
Jesus brought Peter, James and John up a high mountain to witness the transfiguration because it simply can not be observed from ground level.
It is probably significant that they were on a high mountain to observe the vision. In scripture, mountains are often used figuratively, to indicate a higher level of expression; this is evident in the blessing Jacob gave to Joseph, in Genesis, where he says, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Genesis 49:26]
The idea alluded to here is that these blessings are high, lofty, or
spiritual in nature, suggested by the superior height of mountains or hills, and also durable, or eternal, which is suggested by the word "everlasting."
In Ezekiel, there is another example: "In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south." [Ezekiel 40:2] Here, he tells us it is a "vision," and so would not require any literal high mountain. It suggests the vision that follows has a figurative and spiritual meaning, and is not about a
literal temple. Although, some misinterpret it as a literal one.
john gives another example; the high mountain, from which he viewed the heavenly Jerusalem, indicates that the prophecy has a high, or spiritual meaning; the city is symbolic of the church.
Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.
Matthew 4:8, where the devil takes Jesus up to a high mountain is similar; the high mountain is figurative, not literal.
Doug
The judgment of Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/gehenna-and-the-judgment/)
Had to go back on the thread and see what you were talking about. I usually don't get to confrontational about what I see versus what someone else sees unless one of two things happen. One, if someone chooses to single me out and question what I've shared . .I don't mind telling them I disagree, I think that can be done without condemnation or power playing. The other would be if something happens like what you'd stated . . . you believed that events are literally going to happen in a literal place.
Because Jesus referred to a litteral place, then are you saying that it's going to be a literal happening? If you're saying that then you're overstepping the whole "parable" subject all together. Nothing Jesus said was to be taken literally. He called the Pharisees vipers, yet they didn't turn into literal snakes . . . this was something even the disciples, his own disciples often would struggle with and they hounded him when they were alone as to why did he always talk in parables.
Romans 1:20, God uses natural to reveal spiritual truth . . .doesn't mean because natural is referred to that literally things pertaining to that natural example are going to unfold. I believe it's misleading to tell people that there is going to be a literal army that is going to literally congragate at the literal valley of hinnon . . . and that's all I was saying. I wasn't warning everyone else to be aware of your tactics, I was just saying that applying something spiritually has much more benefit in our lives than trying to make it fit into a literal happening.
I already addressed the idea that if Ghenna isn't a garbage dump that it still doesn't fit an ET's theology to say that Jesus was talking about eternal hell.
I guess the bottom line here is if you have the liberty to share your points of view and not have others put out general warnings against them, based on your own personal fears, then it should only be fair that I could have the ability to share what I see with the same expectations. Having said that, I do realize I've probably said much about those who embrace natural over spiritual and how that can often defeat the purpose, but I didn't have anyone here in mind when writing such, it was just my opinion and I've tried to make sure that people understand that when I do put stuff out . . "to me . . .I see such and such . . ."
It's all good . . .not upset or troubled, I think it's awesome that we have such a venue as this where we can have a mixture of all of it all and hopefully we all can find a way to not only accept, but grow from each other's fruits.
Hmmm . . .never noticed that before . . .satan led Jesus . . .something wrong with that already . . .up into a high mountain . . .wow . . .is this to say satan literally led Jesus?
You say the mountain is figurative . .what about satan? Is he figurative as well?
Nathan,
Satan didn't lead Jesus. The HS led Jesus.
Luke 4:5
5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Where'd ya go? I'm really curious as to where this one goes.
Quote from: Nathan on April 16, 2011, 02:22:29 AM
Luke 4:5
5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Sorry, the thought of Jesus being led by Satan made my skin crawl. I can't argue this--but here's one example where I prefer the KGV. It's more the idea of Jesus accompanying him, rather than being blindly led.
5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
--Luke 4
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
--Mat 4
Jesus was taken....think...how could Jesus be led? Is a foolish consideration.
I truely like Ernest Mahan 1904 version
Mat 4:8 The third time, the Devil took Jesus to a very high mountain, and, showing him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour, said to him:
Come on guys . . .none of this fits literally. So satan didn't lead him . . .he "took" him??? That's even worse! Satan is more powerful? If he took him it means it was against his will, which then supports the ET side of things all over again in that it was God's will that none should perish . . .but he's just incapable to stop us from torturing ourselves. . .if he led him, it means Jesus submitted to him . . . and yeah Molly, that'd make anyone's skin crawl. But trying to use natural reasoning in this one just isn't going work.
I'd tell you my side of it, but I think most of you already know what I'm gonna say. But so far, I've yet to see life and freedom from from your understanding of it. I've left work, but I was so curious to see what you came up with I "had" to hop on for a sec and see from home.
Tell you what, I'll throw you a bone . . .
If you can see which part of Jesus asked God to have the cup pass from him, then you should be able to see what's going on with this passage.
And Molly, just so you know I'm not ignoring your response, is it the King James you posted there? Stating that the devil "took" Jesus up a mountain?
Remember, it's already been stated it wasn't a literal mountain . . .thing about that passage . . .what literal mountain could satan take Jesus to where you could see the entire world.
Come on guys, I hear your ice cracking . . .it's okay to say it!!!
The battle is within.
Jesus was taken....think...how could Jesus be led? Is a foolish consideration.
I truely like Ernest Mahan 1904 version
Mat 4:8 The third time, the Devil took Jesus to a very high mountain, and, showing him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour, said to him:
Well it is good that some can see that Jesus was not led nor was He took. There is much to Our Saviour than we read about. And Nathan I am happy for your post and wonder which part, of Jesus was asked about the cup! Excellent :bigGrin: There is so much of our Saviour that we are yet to learn.
The cup of humanity.
Earlier I posted some comments on the prophetic significance of high mountains, thinking that there is an indirect connection with the subject at hand, the significance of the valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna. In most of the examples I gave, the high mountains were connected with the gospel, and with the heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual temple, etc. A mountain represents a high, lofty revelation of a spiritual nature; so, what is a valley?
The mountains of Israel are prominent parts of the promised land, which is symbolic, and a type or "shadow" of spiritual things promised to the saints. Promises, and covenants, and prophecies are sometimes represented by the mountains where they were given. Thus, for example, Sinai represents the Mosaic legislation, in Galatians 4:24-26.
Similarly, the Mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse that Jesus gave there; it gives its name to that prophecy too. And the Sermon on the Mount is another revelation connected with a mountain, though that one is unnamed. If it were not significant, why say it was given on a mountain? Whatever mountain it was, it is one of the "mountains of Israel."
These examples are enough to show that mountains represent revelations, and promises, and prophecies. Jacob compared his promised blessings to the "everlasting hills," indicating their lasting duration; that is, they are symbolic of promises of things that endure forever.
David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast." [Psalm 36:6]
I suggest that valleys, being places where the land and rock has been removed, either by tectonics or erosion, are symbolic of missing information; things yet to be revealed. Thus, when John the Baptist heralded the ministry of Jesus, he quoted from the prophecy of Isaiah, that said every mountain will be made low, and every valley will be filled.
The teachings of Jesus and the apostles filled many "valleys." These teachings are contained in the New Testament. Missing revelations were supplied, in Paul's epistles, in the teachings of Jesus, and in Revelation, for example. Many of the Old Testament prophecies are shown to be fulfilled, as explained in the New Testament, and in some cases, they are reinterpreted. This partly fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah.
The valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, is one of the valleys to which Isaiah's prophecy applies; its true significance will be made known. In the teachings of Jesus, Gehenna is prophetic.
Isaiah said that Jerusalem and the mountain of the Lord's house would be raised up, to the tops of the mountains. [Isaiah 2:1-3] In the New Testament that has occurred, as we see in Galatians 4:26, and in Hebrews 12:22, where Jerusalem is in heaven, higher than all the earth's mountains. But it is fulfilled in a spiritual way.
Since Jerusalem has been raised up, how can the teachings of Jesus about Gehenna be related to earthly things? They must be connected with the heavenly city, not the earthly one; it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.
The threat of Gehenna applies to those in the heavenly Jerusalem, that is, to the church, rather than to the world, or to those who never heard the gospel. One has to be in the holy city, to be cast out of it.
Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." [Luke 21:36]
Those who are not "accounted worthy" may be disappointed. Think of the parable of the 10 virgins, and the parable of the man at the wedding feast, who was not wearing the appropriate wedding garment. Jesus said there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Doug
The judgment of Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/gehenna-and-the-judgment/)
Trim thy wick.
Why is it that creating fear is what comes forth today from reading the Old Testament? And that same thinking carried into the New Testament; and religion, by what ever name, teaches the very same message from a God of love (1 Jo. 4:8).... a message that the world is going to greet a firestorm ending and that many are going to a place of eternal punishment...
and this eternal punishment from a God of Love. Jesus came preaching the Good News, that news is that Jesus died for the whole world. 1Jn 2:2 and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,
I figger the "trash dump" is a stage word that religions and denominational sects to explain a thought that has just been passed down from one ordinance to another. Molech, now there is the anchor for teaching of this horrible valley. Perhaps and it is only me, but abortion seems to relate, but then it is just me. As usual Micah has commited over speak.
Quote from: Doug on April 16, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.
Perhaps if 100%
exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application
at all. But I believe it still was
very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New). :2c:
QuoteAs usual Micah has commited over speak.
Join the club. :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on April 16, 2011, 09:05:40 AM
QuoteAs usual Micah has commited over speak.
Join the club. :laughing7:
:wink2:
you know- Dont you wish scripture woulld make its mind up as we say here- :icon_flower:
Mat 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.[/b]
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of"""""""""" his own lust, and enticed. """""""""
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
wheres Stan the MAN in this Scripture-? it exclusively states when MAN is Tempted[ no mention of Stan here]HEis DRAWN AWAY of HIS OWN LUST and enticed- :dontknow: :icon_flower:
If one takes a Better look at the Serpent, you note itS ROOT MEANING defines it as to learn by experience; TO DILIGENTLY OBSERVE. which can mean OUR OWN power to determine or discern
Consider it thus--- theres a WET painted bench in your local park with a SIGN-- "DO NOT TOUCH "WET PAINT"-- but this little serpent pops up and has to determine for itself if this is TRUE, so the first thing you do is TOUCH IT- then BLAM--- theres wet paint all over your hand :mblush: --- your action has JUST birthed the JUDGE , The very serpent becomes the error of diiscernment --- the Judge or Accuser is SATAN which becomes our very nature----
Satan wanted to TAKE HOLD of Christ ,but first the serpent has to BIRTH IT\HIM-[ satan] - we Then see the actions of our LORD whos discernment[ this time NOT an error as HE JUDGED WELL] was the will of the FATHER - HENCE THE Prince of the WORLD [THE VERY NATURE OF MAN = SATAN] had No PART OF HIM
NOW CONSIDER CAIN- :sigh:
Gen 4:7 If thou doest well,[/b] shalt thou not be accepted?[/b] and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. [/color]
Satan is Stan the Man= HIS nature- :sigh:
PS SORRY ABOUT THE BOLDING--something went a miss-lol
? Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents [ye] generation of vipers , how can ye escape the damnation of hell ?
consider the serpent , the error of discernment those who doeth NOT WELL?
Luk 10:19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions[ have LIES in their TAIL= false prophets], and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
Consider the Viper[the snake of CUNNING
seems Paul wanted to BURN STICKS= WOOD= MEN on a FIRE, The Hand is One of AUTHORITY as we sit on HIS RIGHT HAND
Act 28:3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.
Act 28:5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.
KINDA SOUNDS LIKE
Num 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
Num 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
the picture shows the BRASS serpent
the BRASS serpent NOW has been JUDGED as Brass means Judgment = The BRASS ALTER
symbolising- we BEING Baptised into HIS death [ HE who bore the Judgment due to us] shall be RAISED with HIM in LIFE---
Jhn 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
having been raised with HIM we become HIS FEET OF BRASS--- :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Eyes means Understanding given the Gospel of peace- the Ministers a FLAME, the Tongues of FIRERev 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass; :icon_flower:
Quote from: Nathan on April 16, 2011, 02:05:43 AM
Had to go back on the thread and see what you were talking about. I usually don't get to confrontational about what I see versus what someone else sees unless one of two things happen. One, if someone chooses to single me out and question what I've shared . .I don't mind telling them I disagree, I think that can be done without condemnation or power playing. The other would be if something happens like what you'd stated . . . you believed that events are literally going to happen in a literal place.
Because Jesus referred to a litteral place, then are you saying that it's going to be a literal happening? If you're saying that then you're overstepping the whole "parable" subject all together. Nothing Jesus said was to be taken literally. He called the Pharisees vipers, yet they didn't turn into literal snakes . . . this was something even the disciples, his own disciples often would struggle with and they hounded him when they were alone as to why did he always talk in parables.
Romans 1:20, God uses natural to reveal spiritual truth . . .doesn't mean because natural is referred to that literally things pertaining to that natural example are going to unfold. I believe it's misleading to tell people that there is going to be a literal army that is going to literally congragate at the literal valley of hinnon . . . and that's all I was saying. I wasn't warning everyone else to be aware of your tactics, I was just saying that applying something spiritually has much more benefit in our lives than trying to make it fit into a literal happening.
I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Maybe this will benefit, in fact probably will benefit those who seek the answer to certain scriptures, such as the person who started this thread. This person hates God because they do not understand the ghenna scriptures. Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing, perhaps it refers to the lake of fire, which I personally beleive in some kind of spiritual fire from God. But the ghenna scripture could also refer to the battle of armageddon and in fact from research it makes the most sense out of all the interepretations I have heard concerning ghenna. Now I realize I have not given much scripture, but this is something I hope to show, but my dilemma is whether it is worth the hassle as many here are against such an idea, at least it seems so, and I have no desire to argue here over this. But if it helps people understand this scripture better and perhaps maybe finally understand what Jesus was talking about, then I see it as a great help, even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
:2c:
I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread.
Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.
I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding. In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about. I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits. The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.
Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.
I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within. Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations. When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that. Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here. Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan. It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . . and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.
It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere. It was simply his carnal mind. I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to his biggest enemy. It's a win/win.
I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen? Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference. There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.
Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing
I can only speak for myself, but I've never indicated that Scripture is to be interpreted "exclusively" on a spiritual level. In fact, I've stated many times and Taf's touched on it as well about different levels of understanding . different dimensions . . .different realms . . .for me, natural, moral and spiritual are the main three. . . .but what I "have" stated is that we're not called to walk in the flesh but instead to walk in the spirit . . .it makes it difficult to walk in the spirit if everything we do relies on natural understanding.
even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
Now why would Jesus teach us not to worry about tomorrow if he knew all along that there is reason to worry about tomorrow???
Quote from: Nathan on April 17, 2011, 12:49:48 AM
I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen? Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference. There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.
The name
Armageddon mentioned in Revelation 16:16 seems to be derived from
Har Megiddo (Hebrew) meaning Mount of Megiddo.
Meddigo is located in the valley of Jezreel in northern Israel. It was the site of the battle of Megiddo (609 BC) fought between Egypt and the Kingdom of Judah, in which King Josiah fell. [2 Chronicles 35:22] When King Josiah died there was great mourning. The prophet Zechariah referred to it:
Zechariah 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
Commenting on the above verse, William Lindsay Alexander wrote:
The mourning was to be not only deep and poignant, but also universal. The prophet compares it to "the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo" (ver. 11), that is, the mourning occasioned by what took place there. The mourning referred to is that of the nation over King Josiah, who was slain in battle with Pharaohnecho at Megiddo, and whose death was deeply and widely lamented throughout the nation (2 Kings xxiii. 29, 30; 2 Chron. xxxv. 20-24). Hadad-rinmon was a place, Jerome tells us, in the plain of Megiddo, near to Jezreel, and known in his day by the name of Maximianopolis; it has recently been identified with a place called Rummaneh, where there are the remains of a town or village at the south-western part of the plain of el-But-tauf, not far from Lejjun, the supposed site of Megiddo. The death of King Josiah was a signal calamity to the Jewish nation; with it "the last gleam of the sunset of Judah faded into night" (Pusey); and the shadow of that calamity rested on the nation for generations afterwards. For him Jeremiah wrote a lamentation. Dirges for him were preserved in the national archives, and were periodically recited by the minstrels of the nation; and thus to lament for him in dirges became an ordinance in Israel which survived the captivity (2 Chron. xxxv. 25). No lamentation in Judah equalled this for King Josiah; and so it came to be associated in the minds of the people with the highest degree of sorrow and mourning. Hence the allusion to it here; even to the height of this hitherto unequalled sorrow, should the mourning of Israel over their great sin rise.
[William Lindsay Alexander. Zechariah: his visions and warnings (http://books.google.ca/books?id=jVMHAAAAQAAJ). 1885. pp. 263-365.]
These appear to be the main scriptures about Armageddon. The "mourning" associated with it may allude to what Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:30, "and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." As to whether there indeed could be a connection between the Armageddon prophecy and the symbolic meaning of the valley of Hinnom or
Gehenna, in the midst of the Revelation 16:13-16 passage about Armageddon we read: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."
This clearly has to do with judgment of the saints, and is a bit similar to the warning Jesus gave in Matthew 24:15-21, about
clothes. The idea behind this is that Christ wants his Church to be clothed with
truth; Paul said, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;" [Ephesians 6:14] Being caught
naked is to be found resisting and opposing the truth. Jesus said, "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." Our "old clothes" sometimes ought to be abandoned. And IMO, this has very much to do with what the battle of Armageddon is about. "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Ephesians 6:12]
Besides Armageddon, there are prophecies about other valleys where judgment occurs; Ezekiel tells of the judgment upon the armies of Gog and Magog, who are buried in the valley of Hamongog. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog." [Ezekiel 39:11] "And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog." [Ezekiel 39:15]
Some commentators suggest this name alludes to the valley of Hinnom, as it resembles "Hinnom + Gog."
Another valley associated with judgment is the valley of Jehosaphat. God pleads with the nations there for his people. "I will gather together all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehosaphat: and I will plead with them there for my people, and for my inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations." [Joel 3:2] The inheritance of God is not limited to ethnic Jews, but includes the saints in all nations. "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." [Joel 3:12]
This valley is also called
the valley of decision: "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision." [Joel 3:14]
A Catholic commentary (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08503a.htm) says:
It is also credible that the prophet meant to designate an ideal, indeterminate valley -- the valley of judgment, and no more -- for Josaphat signifies "Jahveh judges". This valley is, in fact, spoken of under the name of "valley of destruction" (A. V. valley of decision") in verse 14 of the same chapter. According to the context, the Divine judgment will be exercised upon the nations who afflicted Juda and Jerusalem at the time of the captivity and the return from exile.
If the names of these valleys are indeterminate, or symbolic in nature, we can connect all these prophecies as different views of the judgment of the world that begins at the church. The apostle Peter said,
1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Doug
The judgment of Gehenna (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/04/15/gehenna-and-the-judgment/)
Quote from: Nathan on April 17, 2011, 12:49:48 AM
I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen? Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference. There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.
-------
TT
I mean't personally believing it will happen, because I know that you don't believe it, but I just took the stance that if for example you did believe it, then I assume based on what you have already posted here you would take the position as to say"what benefit is it spiritually to me or to others, knowing that destruction is ahead". So what I am saying is that if you did take that stance and in fact that is the position I am in, then it would be presumptious of me/us to assume it is of no spiritual benefit to others, because it may in fact enlighten people minds to finally understand what Jesus is really talking about and thus finally the ETist, will have a good explanation as to the true meaning of Jesus words, instead of their typical stance of concluding that it must be Eternal hell fire.
You said there is no scriptures but there are many. Here is one.
Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
This shows that the bible uses worms to convey maggots that eat the flesh.
Isaiah 66:24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Mark9
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Etist = eternal fire. But Isiah shows us the timings of when these events unfold, they correlate exactly to the book of revelation, where after God destroys the rebellious forces, he know says that all flesh comes to Jerusalem to give honour to God, this is yet to happen.
I believe one reason ET is so pronouced among christianity is because Christians do not read the old testament and so think that christ speaks entirely new concepts, where in fact he quoted a lot from the old testament. I hardly hear an etist ever quote from the old testament, because either they don't bother to read it, or they know it clearly points things out, such as the carcasses being made of flesh and not spirit.
Jesus spoke mainly to the jews and when he spoke concerning the worms in Mark, the only reference the people had were in the book of Isiah, where Isiah prophecied that the rebellious would end up being as carcass, if they were not carefull.
TT old
Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing
Nathan
I can only speak for myself, but I've never indicated that Scripture is to be interpreted "exclusively" on a spiritual level. In fact, I've stated many times and Taf's touched on it as well about different levels of understanding . different dimensions . . .different realms . . .for me, natural, moral and spiritual are the main three. . . .but what I "have" stated is that we're not called to walk in the flesh but instead to walk in the spirit . . .it makes it difficult to walk in the spirit if everything we do relies on natural understanding.
-----
TT
I agree that there are many dimensions, but I think possibly you agree with me that there is a main theme or message to each scripture. E.g when God warned Noah a flood is coming, that scripture is mainly for Noah and for our history, even though a christian might pick that verse up and the holy spirit speaks and tells us to avoid going to town this week, because the roads will be flooded. So I think there is a main theme to the ghenna scripture and it is either about spiritual cleansing or about physical destruction, possibly even a main theme for both, a double act of Batman and Robin.
even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
Now why would Jesus teach us not to worry about tomorrow if he knew all along that there is reason to worry about tomorrow???
---
TT
Jesus said if they persecuted me they will persecute you also. Jesus made it clear that the Christian life is going to be suffering.
He said not to worry, because we human beings tend to worry a lot, just like Martha, but Jesus prefered if we were more like Mary to sit and listen and care for today only because tommorow has enough worries in itself.
Luke 10:41
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:
Quote from: Nathan on April 17, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread.
Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.
I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding. In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about. I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits. The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.
Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.
I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within. Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations. When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that. Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here. Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan. It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . . and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.
It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere. It was simply his carnal mind. I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to his biggest enemy. It's a win/win.
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. Why doesn't this say to be tempted by his own carnal mind? It doesn't. It specifically says to be tempted of the devil.
Jesus is led into the wilderness by the HS for this temptation--the last place we see Adam after he has been bested by the devil and kicked out of the garden.
Jesus will now take on Adam's nemesis--the carnal mind? No, the devil.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. The devil offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. That means they are his to offer. If they weren't, how would such an offer tempt the Son of God? But, there's one catch--
if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Jesus has to worship Satan for the deal to be struck. That would make Satan higher than God.
Can we make sense of this substituting the carnal mind? Jesus' carnal mind tempted him with the rule of all the kingdoms of the world because it was his carnal mind's to offer? But, the only catch was that he worship his mind? And this would make his carnal mind higher than God?
Jesus of course turns Satan down. He orders Satan to get away from him. He quotes scripture,
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. It's clear that Satan appeals to the carnal mind. To be offered the position of king of the world, that's some pretty heady stuff. But, does that mean Satan IS the carnal mind? Sorry, I can't see it. Certainly, the carnal mind makes us susceptible to these evil spiritual forces, but I believe the forces are real and independent of us. We see Satan entering into Judas when he takes the sop. How does that make sense if it is Judas own mind? Resist the devil and he will flee from you--meaning I will lose my [carnal] mind? I don't think so.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
heres our little red fella again dressed up like the Great[ RED] Dragon- :sigh:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?
or does it mean thaT Pharoah will raised from The dead Just to be cast Back Down to EARTH?AS he is the great dragon who must have been the acusser all along? :mblush:
Eze 29:3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
Eze 29:4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales mm are not SCALES PRIDEwhich is DEATH?
wow just by PURE chance we see another with a HOOK inits MOUTH
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
so now Leviathan is seen as the SERPENT and the Dragon----- but obviously this cant be the same as the scripture below BECAUSE the Scriptures OP NOT to NOTE IT--- :mblush:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
BUT leviathan is a CROCODILLE ,a DEEP sea Monster.. some say a Dinosaur--- excuse me GUYS while I go HIT my head upon a wall---OPPS AND SORRY- YET AGAIN OFF TOPIC- GRR
Quote from: TaffySpeak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
SCALES ARE PRIDE right?
Eze 29:4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales
Ok, but in my literal way, I can deal with this lol. The Pharaohs of ancient Egypt were considered gods. Maybe they were gods. They ruled over Egypt unopposed for thousands of years. This passage implies they were taking on the characteristics of, or serving, the wrong god. We see a lot of this back and forth rivalry between the God of the Hebrews and other gods in the OT. They took it quite seriously.
Were the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs worshipped as gods? Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were the ancient kings of Egypt.
Pharaohs were considered one of the more important of all the Egyptian gods. While a pharaoh was ruling, he took on the "incarnation" of the god Hours and the son of Re. Once the pharaoh died, he was identified with the god Osiris, the god of the underworld.
The ancient Egyptian Pharaohs served as mediators between their people and the gods. That is why the cultural significance of the gods relied heavily upon the beliefs of the pharaoh who was ruling. It was believed that the fate of the nation lay strictly with the pharaoh.
At one time, it was believed that only the Egyptian kings had the opportunity for eternal life. Eventually, this opportunity was opened up to all people - dependant on that person's character.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/ancient-egyptian-pharaohs-faq.htmI don't understand how you could compare Pharaoh or his fate to the average man in the street. I mean I really don't understand. :dontknow:
:icon_flower:
how about we compare spiritual with spirtual Molly - Pharoah means Great House \a besisiged city Pharoah Being the HEAD of this GREAT house Known as EGYPT--
its this HOUSE of Bondage the isralities were realsed FROM--- what keeps MEN in Bondage sis-- :icon_flower: DEATH is BONDAGE likened to the Carnal Mind being enmity and death, its the THEIF, the murderer ,the LIAR----can we not see the symbolism within PharoaH and Egypt likened to sodom[ which nate shared some] being likened to DEATH---its such Bondage ALL men have to be released from--- this GREAT house of EGYPT is the HOUSE of MAN NOT the GREAT house of the LORD---
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
2Ti 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
2Ti 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work
ITS a Pattern Molly which continually time and time again repeats its self---but one has to see the parable to be able to compare the SPIRITUAL with Spiritual = Parable with Parable-
ITS the Carnal MIND being the ENMITY-- the enmity which HE BROKE through HIS DEATH---
even so the scriptures contain the message ---- consider it a wheel molly--- and wheel within---and another within that--
we first see The ISralites Being released FROM bondage - = carnal mind as they began to follow the Cloud ..then come the NT.. they themselves become the ENMITY oppossing the THE REALITY[ CHRIST] showing again the carnal mind-- for failling TO MOVE with the CLOUD-- Nate spoke a little on sodom ,which again shows the carnality of men--- hence the scripture Egypt and Sodom being likened to OLD jerusalem = the carnal minded-- you have to keep with the Flow Molly---
scripture is for the SPIRITUAL MAN sis--- hidden from the eyes of the carnal--- we all here see HELL as symbolic to SPIRITUAL judgment and being spirtual fire-- not literal as many do in the world BUT we CLAIM to be able to SEE because OTHERS dont and REMAIN in the Literal world------ WHY because they have yet to understand-- BLIND folk cant see Molly .. just because they cant SEE doesnt mean theres a Reality which is TRUE- aka Paul---
which repeats itself on this forum with many still stuck in the literal world sis-- No disrespect to ANYONE :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 17, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
heres our little red fella again dressed up like the Great[ RED] Dragon- :sigh:
Scripture has many types and symbols of Christ, and also of Satan.
Satan is represented by a serpent, a crocodile, a lion, a great red dragon, pharaoh, the king of Tyre, an angel of light, a beast ascending from the bottomless pit, a little horn, the prince of this world, etc. He had his seat at Pergamos, where there was a great temple of Zeus.
Jesus is represented by: Adam; Isaac, when he was offered up by Abraham; Joseph, who interpreted dreams; Jacob, who labored for 7 years for his bride; Moses, who led Israel through the wilderness; a passover lamb; a high priest; a serpent on a pole; a rock; Joshua, who led the conquest of Canaan; king David, who reigned over Israel at Jerusalem; Jonah, who was three days in the belly of the fish; Cyrus; a bridegroom; a hen gathering her chicks; a temple; bread from heaven; a shepherd; a door, etc.
Quote from: Taffy on April 17, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?
or does it mean thaT Pharoah will raised from The dead Just to be cast Back Down to EARTH?AS he is the great dragon who must have been the acusser all along? :mblush:
Eze 29:3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.
Eze 29:4 But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales mm are not SCALES PRIDEwhich is DEATH?
wow just by PURE chance we see another with a HOOK inits MOUTH
Job 41:1 Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down?
In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.
so now Leviathan is seen as the SERPENT and the Dragon----- but obviously this cant be the same as the scripture below BECAUSE the Scriptures OP NOT to NOTE IT--- :mblush:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
BUT leviathan is a CROCODILLE ,a DEEP sea Monster.. some say a Dinosaur--- excuse me GUYS while I go HIT my head upon a wall---OPPS AND SORRY- YET AGAIN OFF TOPIC- GRR
You seem to be trying to negate one type or metaphor with another.
Doug
On the bottomless pit, and the binding of Satan (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/03/21/on-the-bottomless-pit-and-the-binding-of-satan/)
QuoteScripture has many types and symbols of Christ, and also of Satan.
well yes doug How True :icon_flower:
QuoteYou seem to be trying to negate one type or metaphor with another.
not at ALL just making a point of NOT mixing Literal with symbolism-- aka Leviathan relating to satan Pahroah etc etc etc---
which I believe is a Point which was made to you By Nate- aka- the Figurative Mountain but a Literal satan--- ya know make you mind which? tis the point iwas Making within the post Doug
Quote from: Taffy on April 17, 2011, 01:59:31 PM
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?
Some scholars have suggested verse 11 is the center of a chiasmic structure in Revelation 12. The following gives the general idea.
A woman clothed with the sun [v. 1]
B woman with child [v. 2-5]
C dragon seeks to devour her child [v. 4b-5]
D woman fled to the wilderness [v. 6]
E war in heaven [v. 7]
F Satan cast out, deceives the whole world [v. 9]
G the saints overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb [v. 11]
F' rejoicing in heaven, woe in earth [v. 12]
E' dragon persecutes the woman [v. 13]
D' woman fled to the wilderness [v. 14]
C' flood threatens woman, and the earth swallows up the serpent's flood [v. 15-16]
B' woman's seed [v. 17]
A' saints keep the commandments [v. 17]
See:
Is Revelation 12 a chiasmus? (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/is-revelation-12-a-chiasmus/)
On the chiastic structure of Revelation (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/on-the-chiastic-structure-of-revelation/)
John describes the casting down of Satan,
sandwiched between the woman's flight to the wilderness in verse 6, and another flight to the wilderness by the same woman in verse 14.
The wilderness experience for the church alludes to the period that the Israelites sojourned in the wilderness before they entered the promised land. Their experience, Paul said, was for our examples. [1 Corinthians 10:1-11]
The entire generation that came out of Egypt, who were over 20 years of age, perished in the wilderness, and did not enter the promised land, except for Joshua and Caleb.
Caleb received an inheritance, because he was one of the two spies who had given a faithful report. The account of Caleb receiving his inheritance is in Joshua 14:6-13.
Like the 40 years in the wilderness, the wilderness for the church is a period of trial, a judgment, in which the faithful are tested, and tried, as Jesus was.
The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways:
1. Both are part of the same vision
2. They involve same woman
3. They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half"
4. The woman is nourished both times
5. It is the same wilderness
6. Her place is prepared by God
These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways:
1. The first account occurs
before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs
after the war, and the victory of the saints.
2. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is
from ground level, while the second time, it is
from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. I suggest this represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint.
The two descriptions of the woman's flights to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, to which the woman is restricted when she lacks the understanding represented by the two wings of an eagle, that she possesses in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7.
The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted.
The 1st flight to the wildernessIn her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13]
In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah.
The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2]
People follow other men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25]
In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2]
In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13]
In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, in a spiritual sense, and houses rifled, (they are robbed of spiritual things) and women ravished; a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3.
In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10]
The 2nd flight to the wildernessIn her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man."
Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1]
In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The flood includes flawed interpretations of
Gehenna, that say it is a place of inending infornal torment, whereas
Gehenna is a valley on the south side of Jerusalem, and to be cast into it represents being accounted unfit for the kingdom of Christ and the holy city, represented by Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the city of the great King."
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11]
Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11]
Fire falls on those who "know not God."
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12]
In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17]
Doug
alas some other see SATAN being the carnal mind being likened to the acusser of the BRETHREN
SO WHOS THE THE ACUSSER---
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Jhn 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
Jhn 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
Stan is the acusser.. one who stands in Opposition-- the JUDGE------ Those who Oppose the TRUTH lay in opposition---therefore are LIARS of the TRUTH, Menstealers , DEATH makers, theives[ OF TRUE LIFE] murderers--- :sigh:
Thou shalt NOT STEAL- thou shalt not bear false witness[[ thou shalt not kill[ murder]--mmm
SO IN THIS CASE WE see MOSES[ the Body = LAW] being the one in Opposition--- ya keep with the Flow bro-- unlike men folk who Just Like to PIN the Fella DOWN to fit there understanding-- tis Not the case---
Quote from: Molly on April 17, 2011, 08:58:38 AM
Quote from: Nathan on April 17, 2011, 12:41:26 AM
I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread.
Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.
I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding. In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about. I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits. The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.
Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.
I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within. Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations. When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that. Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here. Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan. It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . . and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.
It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere. It was simply his carnal mind. I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to his biggest enemy. It's a win/win.
1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Why doesn't this say to be tempted by his own carnal mind? It doesn't. It specifically says to be tempted of the devil.
Jesus is led into the wilderness by the HS for this temptation--the last place we see Adam after he has been bested by the devil and kicked out of the garden.
Jesus will now take on Adam's nemesis--the carnal mind? No, the devil.
8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
The devil offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. That means they are his to offer. If they weren't, how would such an offer tempt the Son of God? But, there's one catch--if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Jesus has to worship Satan for the deal to be struck. That would make Satan higher than God.
Can we make sense of this substituting the carnal mind? Jesus' carnal mind tempted him with the rule of all the kingdoms of the world because it was his carnal mind's to offer? But, the only catch was that he worship his mind? And this would make his carnal mind higher than God?
Jesus of course turns Satan down. He orders Satan to get away from him. He quotes scripture,
Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
It's clear that Satan appeals to the carnal mind. To be offered the position of king of the world, that's some pretty heady stuff. But, does that mean Satan IS the carnal mind? Sorry, I can't see it. Certainly, the carnal mind makes us susceptible to these evil spiritual forces, but I believe the forces are real and independent of us. We see Satan entering into Judas when he takes the sop. How does that make sense if it is Judas own mind? Resist the devil and he will flee from you--meaning I will lose my [carnal] mind? I don't think so.
John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
If my carnal mind wasn't always trying to rise up against me, there would be no need to have a renewed mind in the first place. th eweapons of our warfare are mighty through prayer to the pulling down of strong-holds . . .strongholds of what???
3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)
5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.
CASTING DOWN IMAGINATIONS . . .this warfare is not dealing with things happenin on the outside of us, but things happening on the inside.
You ask why doesn't Scripture just tell you that it's your mind? Surely you're aware "he that hath an ear, let him hear . . ." implies that everything has a spiritual implication tied to it. And besides, it "does" imply the mind, it calls it the adversary . . .which is wha tour mind is according to Romans.
You can't come to accept that Jesus was led by the devil, but yet you won't accept the rope thrown to you that explains why it went down the way it did. And yeah, Adam was tempted the same way . . .tree of knowledge is the gateway for the natural realm and the serpent . .carnality . . .rules this realm, that's why God told him not to eat of it. God knew that when he did, it would rule over him.
It really does all fall into it's own place.
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,"""""" all [these] things are done in parables:""""
you Know Nate ALL things spoken in Parables , even when in Private discourse with the disciples they still struggled to understand--- HE SIMPLY speaks on another LEVEL, but folk constantly Drag it down to the Dust , the earthly literal level..gosh no wonder theres no agreement-- it all then comes down to the INTELLECT of MAN-- who love there interpretation-- man that Gives me One headache---- raise into the spirutal and YOU WILL AGREE----- :HeartThrob:
Hands are Fleshy hands which get thrown into a Literal Fire ... bodies get cremated into a Literal Fire--- Heaven is a Literal Place up in the SKY HELL is literally afIRE ET- aNGELS ARE cELESTRAIL always--- abviously the DEAD cant speak cos they are DEAD- and then come revelation WOW we can have ball games--- Wars Bombs annialation... slaughter red horses and REAL beasts RISING from the sea looking like Crocodilles---- all those heads and Crowns and Vials--- Literal Kingdoms CITY floating to earth--- Literal ANTI CHRISTS siiting ona Throne in Jerusalem... until the LORD samshes HIM to [ppeices cos What is the use of POWER if you cant USE IT right-- folk just love a Good old Fight---- ... oh then this Red Guy called satan Gets his comeuppance for all the trouble hes caused-- you Know bro in a discussion witha World wide preacher the other day discussing this Fella--- eBless Him he mentioned that Satan committed sucide and then come back to spoil the plan of GOD--ROFL---- man I thought I heard it all!!!! EVEN IN OUR CIRCLES Satan is an enty but will be cleansed like all men in the Lake---- whata Laugh---- what enters the Fire being NOT pure perishes... such is the carnal mind the Murderer the liar and the thief--- tyheres NO return.. as Man we are told l will suffer LOSS... so how on this EARTH can satan be saved--
Hang in there Taf, it's all good. God's grace abounds in all of us even when we can't seem to agree with each other's principles, just remember . . .embrace the grace bro, embrace the grace.
Quote from: Nathan on April 18, 2011, 07:29:32 PM
Hang in there Taf, it's all good. God's grace abounds in all of us even when we can't seem to agree with each other's principles, just remember . . .embrace the grace bro, embrace the grace.
THATS THE BIG PICTURE NATE-----A BIG AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 :icon_flower:
Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.
The issue with this satan Guy bro-- many churches use it as fear Tactic not unlike HELL to condemn---aghhhhhhhhhh :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 07:33:58 PM
Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.
so says Brother Ray? :icon_flower: --- Bless Him
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 07:37:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 07:33:58 PM
Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.
so says Brother Ray? :icon_flower: --- Bless Him
That's what I've been trying to say --with the caveat that Satan is a spirit that is outside of us. Otherwise, what is there to channel? :sigh:
The mind of Christ will not channel Satan. Stops him cold at the door.
But if you don't mean to say that the carnal mind IS Satan, then make that clear.
Really? So the carnal mind, when left up to it's own devices, would never "accuse" anyone of anything? It's really "not" at emnity against God then? It's not at war with kingdom principles? It doesn't try to diffuse spiritual truths planted in the spirit of men? It doesn't attack that which it doesn't understand?
How many times do we as individuals berate ourselves at one time or another? Just take a glance at Hollywoods reality shows . . .you'll see carnality at it's finest hour. People sleeing with any willing partner . . .my mind taking any ole idea to bed . . .even though we're instructed to take captive our thoughts. Doesn't sound like a devil at work, just a carnal desire. I still think the church has given devils too much power . . .does not scripture state we can walk ON them and not be harmed??? Traditional churches will make a denomination out of demonica activity. Paul just shakes the snakes off and goes about his business. In fact, the guys that saw him get bitten wanted to make a memorial out of him and he denounced them for it. Peter did the same thing on the mount of transfiguration.
The good news is not about beating up a spiritual nemisis. It's about pursuing Christ.
Another question that really hasn't been addressed or answered . . . How can satan approach God and not be affected by God's purity and presence??? I find it interesting that people embrace satan as tradition has portrayed him to be, but yet no one really can answer the bigger questions out there. No one ever did answer the question about what is an allegory and what is literal with Jesus being led up the mountain to be tempted.
You want to reject a dimensional approach, but you aren't able to explain the can of beans that the literal approach constantly spills out. Jesus asked Peter what he'd heard others say about Jesus, but Jesus wasn't satisfied with Peter having a relationship with him based on someone elses explanation or definition . . . .Jesus wanted Peter's personal experience as to who he saw Jesus to be. Quoting commentaires for me, is a bit of a cop out . . .it's saying "I don't have an experience of my own, I choose to ride "this guy's" coat tails on the matter.
And that's what religion has done to us, we find a group of people that agree on a thought or theory and we identfy ourselves with "people's conclusions rather than our own personal revelations.
The thing is, Jesus is going to appear, but not in the form the mind of a man expects him to appear. And if man is filling his hands with man-made ideas, then man will find it extremely difficult to embrace that which he can't see because his hands are too full of things he things he understands. Lose your life . . .lose your identity . . .give up what you think you know so well and see where God takes you from there. There's a whole other world of truth and life beyond our understanding and throwing ourselved into what is literal is not going to get us into those ascended places (mountain regions) where God's spirit can then pour out upon our flesh.
This isn't about who's right, but who's willing?
Let me put it another way..
Nathan, do you think Satan is not a spirit that exists independently of man?
I agree with you my friend, man has taken the tact that the literal is how we are to see. I believe that it is spiritual understanding that opens the door of the mind of Christ.
And to clarify the carnal mind is not the "adversary-satan." If I read Genesis correctlly the carnal mind was there before the serpent was revealed.
CARNAL G4559 sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Molly is correct I believe, Jesus did not have a carnal mind even in His flesh body. I believe that His flesh body was for identification purposes, so that mankind could see Him.
Joh 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
I believe the adversary is a spirit who needs mankind to work through, without mankind there is no need for an adversary. :2c:
then I suggest you have a LOOK to the Root meaning- tell us what you FIND
Quote from: Molly on April 18, 2011, 08:19:42 PM
Let me put it another way..
Nathan, do you think Satan is not a spirit that exists independently of man?
Molly, I'm saying it's irrelevant. I'm saying there's so much more to truth and life than defining who the devil is or isn't. I'm saying that the satan I do see in me is where my responsibility lies . . . taking captive "my" own thoughts . .working out "my" own salvation. That's where the battle truly lies . . .not out there in the literal world worrying about some red beast with a pointy tail that may or may not have the ability to tempt Christ. I asked the questions I did in hopes that many would take a monute and actually listen to what they're saying. It's just crazy to think that a literal evil enemy of God could tempt Jesus . . .yet we'll spend all of our waking hours trying to dissect how that could even be a possitbility instead of simply worshiping God for who he is in us.
Pursuing Chirst who is spirit is extremely difficult to do if I'm embracing everything to be literally applied. I know how my mind works and it sucks. It's limited at best . . .so why on earth would I want to embrace my limitations when I could instead drown myself in his infinity? But there's a veil between here and there . . .and the tools I use to sustain natural life here just aren't meant to be applied when I enter over "there". The hardest thing for man to do is truly lay down his mind . . .his mind is everything he's got, man couldn't ever imagine not being governed by his conscious, decision-making processes . . .yet that's what faith is all about.
The thing about walking primarily by revelation rather than knowledge is . . .there never comes a time where I am confident in myself that I've finally figured it out. Revelation is a living experience, it has no platues. It's continual and never ending. I say stuff I've never heard before and it's not because it's about me . . .it's because there's a venue that God had originally orchestrated with Adam that has been cut-off ever since the tree of Knowledge came on the scene. God's word is not on paper . . .you know that and I know that . . .it's in the hearts of men. Yet when it comes to sharing what is being seen, the first thing we revert to is that which we read instead of that which we hear. All the while, faith doesn't come by reading or studying . . it comes by "hearing". Because when faith becomes engaged, the reading goes to a whole other level of "seeing". And that's what we've been talking about all this time. The enablement to see the kingdom of God through our spirit once we get our minds into a place of observation rather than operation.
When we come into this we realize that what we hear is "within" what we read. But if we build our faith solely on what we read, we miss being able to truly hear.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 08:35:14 PM
I agree with you my friend, man has taken the tact that the literal is how we are to see. I believe that it is spiritual understanding that opens the door of the mind of Christ.
And to clarify the carnal mind is not the "adversary-satan." If I read Genesis correctlly the carnal mind was there before the serpent was revealed.
CARNAL G4559 sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Molly is correct I believe, Jesus did not have a carnal mind even in His flesh body. I believe that His flesh body was for identification purposes, so that mankind could see Him.
Joh 1:18 God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
I believe the adversary is a spirit who needs mankind to work through, without mankind there is no need for an adversary. :2c:
Well, that would explain why we get into such discussions . . I see it quite differently. I see Christ not coming into the flesh just to appear to us, but to redeem our flesh back to him, but to do so, he had to become that which he was redeeming. Which is also why I "don't" see him returning to the flesh "in the flesh". Because he's already redeemed me back to him . . .so that I can be where he is eternally, not the other way around.
" I see Christ not coming into the flesh just to appear to us, but to redeem our flesh back to him, but to do so, he had to become that which he was redeeming. "
Im sorry I thought the second would be evident.
"then I suggest you have a LOOK to the Root meaning- tell us what you FIND."
The root meanding of what?
to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent- :icon_flower:
Hey Nathan, do you believe in actual resurrections? Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)? A literal 1000 year period? What happens after you die? Will we have a physical glorified body, existing on earth, in (and out) of space and time?
I may be thinking carnally by asking these questions :laughing7: but you definitely present a much different picture than what I've grown up with. I'm just trying to flesh out all the details in my mind :grin: In all seriousness I'd like to have a better idea where you're coming from. You definitely speak a foreign language, I'd just like to see how those things translate.
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 10:22:34 PM
to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent- :icon_flower:
No serpent birthed the carnal mind, that mind came at the breath of life when man BECAME a living soul. I reason that when man was put in a deep sleep and the woman was made from the "flesh" (CARNAL G4559 sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh,) the mind of man was prepared for the next purpose in the plan of the Lord God. The mind(heart) is nothing more than the channel which is used
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 10:44:10 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 10:22:34 PM
to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent- :icon_flower:
No serpent birthed the carnal mind, that mind came at the breath of life when man BECAME a living soul. I reason that when man was put in a deep sleep and the woman was made from the "flesh" (CARNAL G4559 sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh,) the mind of man was prepared for the next purpose in the plan of the Lord God. The mind(heart) is nothing more than the channel which is used
eve is the MIND bro= soul as the LORD is the soul of theFATHER hence if youve seen me you seen the FATHER FOR WE ARE ONE--so is Eve the soul of adam HIS MIND as they to are ONE
To be carnal minded is Death Right? so are saying the second Adam breathed he was DEAD even before Eve Shown as His mind Sinned? or is what we read for our edification showing us How the The mind is decieved By the serpent- one has to Absorb the thought before the action of birthing it--- maybe thats why Paul; mentions bringing every thought into cpativity---
which obviously didnt happen with Adam hence the error of discernment birthing the nature of the carnal mind--= satan the judge the accuser one who stands in opposition- consider Peter who Christ NAMED= nature satan as he too birthed The Judge By His error of Discerment-- sems thats How we Learn- so Christ Rebuked HIM if stan was Pteter then it was Peter the Lord rebuked--
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but
those that be of men.
:sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
:sigh:
your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 11:36:58 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
:sigh:
your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro
What i said was when man in gen. 2:7 recieved the breath of life and became a living soul, the mind he had when he became alive was carnal..it was of the flesh. Yes to be caranlly minded is death, do you not believe that the Lord got did not have within His plan and purpose the out come of the charge the Lord God gave to man that if he ate of the tree in the midst of the garden man would die?
Where did you get that I said something about the second Adam? And I dont see your inturpetation of eve/woman is the mind of man.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 11:45:29 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 11:36:58 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 11:26:52 PM
:sigh:
your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro
What i said was when man in gen. 2:7 recieved the breath of life and became a living soul, the mind he had when he became alive was carnal..it was of the flesh. Yes to be caranlly minded is death, do you not believe that the Lord got did not have within His plan and purpose the out come of the charge the Lord God gave to man that if he ate of the tree in the midst of the garden man would die?
Where did you get that I said something about the second Adam? And I dont see your inturpetation of eve/woman is the mind of man.
yes Indeed Micah HE established the End before the Beginning-- even so your seeing a Literal Being with a Literal carnal Brain made of Blood veins etc--- where The spiritual relates to be carnal minded is Death and for DEATH to occur sin had to take Place which certainly didnt happen the second the LORD Breathed into HIM-- again you have the Cart before the Horse-- the simplistics is the example shown by the LORD with PETER-- which you just passed by without a whisper-- simples i what Im seeing bro
What i said was when man in gen. 2:7
so where did you find the lord Breathing into this ADAM-- seems the LORD forgot too as theres No mention JUST MAYBE Probably because this ADAM is CHRIST HIMSELF who is BOTH MALE AND FEMALE bro-- and for sure wouldnt need the breath of LIFE to breathe would HE? :icon_flower:
Quote from: redhotmagma on April 18, 2011, 10:34:35 PM
Hey Nathan, do you believe in actual resurrections? Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)? A literal 1000 year period? What happens after you die? Will we have a physical glorified body, existing on earth, in (and out) of space and time?
I may be thinking carnally by asking these questions :laughing7: but you definitely present a much different picture than what I've grown up with. I'm just trying to flesh out all the details in my mind :grin: In all seriousness I'd like to have a better idea where you're coming from.
You definitely speak a foreign language, I'd just like to see how those things translate.This is another one that I see where the church put the emphasis in the wrong places . . . it's an upper room experience . . ."in' that "ascended place" you are given a new name because you are given new eyes through which you no longer are in a fallen state looking up, but you are now in a resurrected state looking down . . .it changes how you talk because it changes how you see. I'm losing track of where I've read what . . .but I think Taf posted a passage about what eternal life is . . .it's "knowing" God . . .not religion, but relationship . .and not platonic, but intimate. I appreciate your interest. And I don't mind at all sharing what I see.
To be honest, I really don't linger on this for this long once I've stated my piece and others have shared their differences, but there's a growing fire that's spreading . . .this thing that we say and you struggle with . . .it create birth-pangs in your minds . . .truth isn't learned, it's birthed. To birth you need to be impregnated, to be impregnated, you need to press in to his intimacies . . .this is that.
I don't mind telling you, I've been sicker than a dog these last few days . . .got the chills I can't seem to shake . . .but this subject . . .it seems to be the ointment that soothes whatever it is that's afflicting me . . .get's me all charged up!! Maybe I should rephrase that . . .not the subject but the releasing of that river of life that we hear preached about so much. We don't let that river go through our filtering system . . .rivers come from your bellies, the core of your identity in him, not through your eyes, mouth or head.
This stupid glitch is driving me nuts, I'm gonna have to make several posts that will add up to one overall.
Quote.it seems to be the ointment that soothes whatever it is that's afflicting me
:icon_flower:
do you believe in actual resurrections?
I believe all things are possible . . .and I mean that . . .I don't mean that even the outlandish things "could" be possible . . .I beleive ALL things ARE possible. I believe in resurrection in every dimension. My wife's Father passed a couple weeks ago and as we cried around his bed and watched the monitors show the inevidible, not one of us doubted for a minute that at any second, God would raise her Dad up out of that death bed. We all believe in resurrection power on every level, not just spiritual, but on every level.
The things Taf and I have been relaying here is not do say we claim the natural things never happened . . .by all means no. There really was an Adam, there really was an Eve . . .God really did breathe into Adam the spirit of life which his flesh then began to manifest a living soul . . .the thing is, everything we do here and now is all under the curse . . .sin is not the curse, it's the evidence that the curse is still in effect in this world. The curse is . . .spiritual alignment of man. I'm really sorry so many here do struggle with patterns and types and shadows and colors and numbers and elements . . .but all those things are actually God's alphabet that he uses to communicate with. By the way, for me, a mountain is depicting the government of God . . .whenever God set out to "establish" some unique thing of his nature, it began on a mountain . . and I think the line of thought discussed earlier by others was along the same lines as well. But it all ties back to Love . . .God . . .is . . .love . . .everything flows from that.
When Adam not only ate the fruit . . .oh, and remember, nothing happened when Eve ate it . . .only when Adam ate did they then "see" the knowledge of God??? No . . .all they saw was "their" nakedness. That's a huge red flag right there already. Knowlege unveils nothing spiritual. It only reveals to others that we're naked . . .we rely on knowledge, it's kinda tough to be dressed in rightness is it not?
But the key here in all of this is . . .When Adam RECEIVED FROM EVE the fruit . . .he was not to be fed by his mind as again, Eve represents my soul . . .
Adam through the order of life completely out of alignment when he let his Eve . . .that which he was instructed to subdue, he submitted to and at that very second, that which he ate became the dominant force and our world began. Not the earth, the natural realm's dominance over spiritual . . .everything I see with my eyes is through natural lenses. Only in faith now, can we see anything spiritual. But when Noah's ark landed on Mt. (another mountain, or should I say mountain range . .) Ararat . . .places like this is where definitions light up the night. It literally means . . .the curse is reversed . . .that's obviously a picture of the cross . . .and like the tabernacle, the grand-daddy of type and shadows, the ark also had three distinct layers . . or dimensions . . .as did not just the ark, but the contents of the ark . .manna . . .law of stone . . .and budding life of the spirit. Which is why it was Moses and Elijah that was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration . . .God was restoring the intimacy, the most secret things of his nature that the nation had lost . . .oh, and "that" was revealed on another mount as well . . .
The thing that was lost and now is found is our identity . . .we're not predominantly natural beings first and "then" unified spirits later . . .Spirit rules flesh . .that's what it always was. Remember the passage where women are supposed to be quiet in church? Yeah, of course that HAD literal implications, but when we read this book OF LIFE . . .LIFE is what should flow out, not rules and laws that brings us back into bondage all over again. I can also tell you right now, as humbly as I possibly can, the things flowing out right here and now are words of spirit and life, not doctrine, laws or religion that I obtained through natural reasoning . . .perhaps there are times when Taf and I may not present it as sweetly as what it really is, all I can ask is that you find grace in my rudenesses. :winkgrin:
Oh . . .and another thing . . .the stuff being said is not for the mind's consumption . . it'll only regurgitate what it can't comprehend. I don't want to argue with people's minds . . .I have enough issues with my own . . .I just want to share what I see and let it go from there.
QuoteWhen Adam RECEIVED FROM EVE the fruit . . .he was not to be fed by his mind as again, Eve represents my soul . . .
yo- Man is The spirit ,the head, in type being Christ - the woman is the soul who is Subject to the Spirit as Christ is the HEAD of the Church and his BRIDE , as is the woman ithe Body :icon_flower: as Paul mentions a Mystery :icon_flower:
Amen to that Taf.
So yeah, I believe in resurrection . . .in fact I think "that" should be "THE" identity of every follower of Christ . . .not about death so much but about the resurrection death enables us to experience.
Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)?
I believe that in the end, this realm will return back to it's original order . . .UNDER the Spirit realm. As dominant as the natural realm is now, I believe the spirit realm will become "that" vivid to us. And as hidden as the spirit is to us now . . ."that" will be where the physical realm returns . . God is a god of restoration . . .including realms. I think this is what the falling away of the heavens is referring to, but that's just me.
A literal 1000 year period?
No. I believe like everything else this is depicting a position in the Tabernacle . . .keep in mind . . .the tabernacle of Moses was built as a TYPE AND SHADOW . . .it was patterned after Christ who is the substance from which the shadow is cast. And as we all know, the book of Revelation is a revelation of Jesus Christ . . .I would love people to just soak that one profound piece of truth into the very core of their being before they read one verse further in that book. It's an unveiling of Jesus. The tabernacle of Moses is a shadow of that truth . . .so is it any wonder that all through the revelation, you see references to the tabernacle? And the 1000 year reign isn't any different . . .it's the dimensions of the Holy of Holies . .it's a realm of intimacy in Christ . . .we rule and reign life around us because we are "in" and married "to" our beloved King and High Priest. But I think the moment we try to force it to fit a natural puzzle, we tarnish the purity of the truth it radiates. It is a place of Rest . . .it is the Person of Rest . . .it is my Sabbath . . my Sabbath of Sabbaths . . .which is what "Jubilee" is all about.
One more and I have to go back to my job for a while . . .
What happens after you die?
I believe my spirit returns back to the Father who sent me in the first place, my flesh gives in to the natural force of death and decay and my soul . . .ah . . .my soul . . .I believe that because it's a manifestation of my spirit living in a body that without spirit or body, soul doesn't manifest . . .thus, the reason for a retun to new and imporved bodies. I'ts not a bad thing and I'm not saying you can build a doctrine on that . . .I'm just saying that's what I've seen and continue to see. Bottome line . . .Chist is "the" beginnning of all . . .and the end in all . . .it's all good.
:cloud9: AMEN Taff and Nate :HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 10:49:48 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 18, 2011, 10:44:10 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 18, 2011, 10:22:34 PM
to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen
the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent- :icon_flower:
No serpent birthed the carnal mind, that mind came at the breath of life when man BECAME a living soul. I reason that when man was put in a deep sleep and the woman was made from the "flesh" (CARNAL G4559 sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh,) the mind of man was prepared for the next purpose in the plan of the Lord God. The mind(heart) is nothing more than the channel which is used
eve is the MIND bro= soul as the LORD is the soul of theFATHER hence if youve seen me you seen the FATHER FOR WE ARE ONE--so is Eve the soul of adam HIS MIND as they to are ONE
To be carnal minded is Death Right? so are saying the second Adam breathed he was DEAD even before Eve Shown as His mind Sinned? or is what we read for our edification showing us How the The mind is decieved By the serpent- one has to Absorb the thought before the action of birthing it--- maybe thats why Paul; mentions bringing every thought into cpativity---
which obviously didnt happen with Adam hence the error of discernment birthing the nature of the carnal mind--= satan the judge the accuser one who stands in opposition- consider Peter who Christ NAMED= nature satan as he too birthed The Judge By His error of Discerment-- sems thats How we Learn- so Christ Rebuked HIM if stan was Pteter then it was Peter the Lord rebuked--
But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
" even so your seeing a Literal Being with a Literal carnal Brain made of Blood veins etc---"
I certainly am notThe mind is decieved By the serpent- one has to Absorb the thought before the action of birthing it--- maybe thats why Paul; mentions bringing every thought into cpativity---
"The mind is decieved By the serpent" if what you say is true what am I to do with:
Rom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge,
God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 8:20
For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope I find no serpent here.
"which obviously didnt happen with Adam
hence the error of discernment birthing the nature of the carnal mind--=
You are saying here that the Lord God made an error? "Adam hence the error"
(YLT) And Jesus answering him said, `Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.' (Luke 4:8)
(YLT) and he, having turned, and having looked on his disciples, rebuked Peter, saying, `Get behind me, Adversary, because thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.' (Mark 8:33)
Peter responded just the way any man would in his circumstances having followed the Lord. Yes Peter was an adversary to Words of Jesus for he was only thinking of His Saviours safety.
I believe that the word "adversary" was translated into the proper name "satan" was the error.
:icon_flower:
QuoteRom 1:28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
Rom 8:20 For the creation was subjected to vanity, not of its own will, but by reason of him who subjected it, in hope
mICAH-- The serpent is NOT an IT-- its the error of discernment which takes place in your MIND-- - yes Man was Made Subject to Vanity as the Lord spoke of it from the The begginnig--- even so for sin to take place an ACT had to occur and you seem to keep missing this- The Lord purposed man to fall , Man still had to sin to FALL
Quote"which obviously didnt happen with Adam hence the error of discernment birthing the nature of the carnal mind--=
You are saying here that the Lord God made an error? "Adam hence the error"
NO! Ive never stated that at all- quite the contrary- it was Man Who fulfilled the Purpose of his desire and SINNED- ADAM\MAN SIN was His failure to discern RIGHTLY-- aka - thou cain if thou doest WELL will you not be accepted---[ to Judge rightly-- ]ADAM through his MIND Eve JUDGED wrongly as SIN brought DEATH not life--- therefore the serpent birthed the acusser the Adversary--- HE who stands In opposion to TRUTH---- as did Pater being called satan---lets put this simply its through the Error of discernment WE LEARN which as youll find is the root meaning of the serpent --- as did Peter who was rebuked for His Carnal mindedness who stood in Opposition to the LORDS WILL Bro---
Quote(YLT) And Jesus answering him said, `Get thee behind me, Adversary, for it hath been written, Thou shalt bow before the Lord thy God, and Him only thou shalt serve.' (Luke 4:8)
(YLT) and he, having turned, and having looked on his disciples, rebuked Peter, saying, `Get behind me, Adversary, because thou dost not mind the things of God, but the things of men.' (Mark 8:33)
Peter responded just the way any man would in his circumstances having followed the Lord. Yes Peter was an adversary to Words of Jesus for he was only thinking of His Saviours safety.
I believe that the word "adversary" was translated into the proper name "satan" was the error.
to bow means to Lower the head to the ONE who RULES, likened to Kissing the HAND, SO YES carnal Mind of Peter shown is being his Nature[ satan] has to BOW-- or one could state the OLD MAN needs to be Buried at Baptism Bro
as For peter responding -EXACTLY as the Carnal Mind is Enmity - its the very purpose we are SHOWN this within the Scriptures-- There No profit in the Flesh= Carnal Mind--
again consider the serpent-- the error of Discernment being the Sepents cast to the earth by Pharoahs magicians---- what was Pharoahs error bro? Simple right- FAILING TO OBEY THE word of the LORD so He Judged wrongly birthing the nature on MAN the Beast Known as Satan the """"adversary also known as the GREAT dragon"""" but what Happened to these SERPENTS? The Rod of Moses turned into a SERPENT and SWALLOWED them UP right?
what do you think this is symbolic of Bro---- so I ask you whats swallows up the cause of DEATH?
"therefore the serpent birthed the acusser the Adversary" Taffy
I dont follow or get your teaching. Here you say that the serpent "birthed" the adversary. Just how is that?
In Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary,..." Arent they all the same.
"mICAH-- The serpent is NOT an IT-- its the error of discernment which takes place in your MIND-- - yes Man was Made Subject to Vanity as the Lord spoke of it from the The begginnig--- even so for sin to take place an ACT had to occur and you seem to keep missing this- The Lord purposed man to fall , Man still had to sin to FALL"
You say that the serpent is not an it, but you say "ITS the error of discsernment" isnt that an IT?
Also I am not missing the purpose and plan of the Lord for mankind. I do not except the primise that there was a "fall"; I do believe that the Lord God had every intention of what happen in the garden. If the Lord God had purpose and plan then man did not fall.
The first time "sin" is used in the Bible is Gen.4:7 and it has to do with Cain. From what I can tell mans act was of disobedince
I realize that disobedience is missing the mark...sin...but the writer of Genesis did not call it that. Some to consider Yes?
"again consider the serpent-- the error of Discernment" Taffy Do we add that name to the list in Rev. 20:2?"what was Pharoahs error bro?" Taffy
I dont believe that Pharoh made any mistakes.
I dont want to cause discord, but I find your information blury to understand.
While the door is still open here on this opportunity to indulge . . .there was one more thing that hotmagma mentioned that I have not yet . . .
Will we have a physical glorified body, existing on earth, in (and out) of space and time?
I personally believe this is actually the crux of the whole "where does my soul go when I die" topic. I believe that we are complete, living beings ONLY when there is a spirit occupying a body, through which the soul manifests. Without the combination of the two, the third doesn't manifest. So when we die, I'd hate to say it, but we become incomplete. One of the . . .ANOTHER one of the great mysteries is the idea that God, in his sovereignty elected to let us be his complete craftmanship in the midst of a realm of death and decay. Not only do we survive here, we sustain here . . .we flourish and multiply . . .in the "midst" of death and decay, we are given the gift to live life in the middle of it all. His spirit continues to resonate in our most inner being beyond our understanding, or even awareness. Remember the covenant he made with Abraham was unto himself . . .he is the only constant through all of this.
And when these tents wear out, we leave them . . .and no longer does the soul manifest life in the bodies of flesh . . .our spirit passes and we essentially go on living throughout time as time is governed according to "this" side of life, there's just no visible manifestation of our presence . . . until . . . the end does come . . .and yes, I believe there is a literal end to this natural existance for all creation . . .when the time comes when we are given new bodies, when natural reverses postions with spiritual and spiritual with natural, we will be given glorified bodies again through which our soul manifests again . . . I just see my soul like my shadow . . .light appears, a shadow is cast . . light is removed (spriit) the shadow no longer manifests.
So I guess to answer the soul question, I'd say . . .if you can explain where your shadow goes . . then you can understand where one's soul goes . . .
Peter Pan may not have been too far off after all. :laughing7:
Quotetherefore the serpent birthed the acusser the Adversary" Taffy
I dont follow or get your teaching. Here you say that the serpent "birthed" the adversary. Just how is that?
In Rev 20:2 and he laid hold on the dragon, the old serpent, who is Devil and Adversary,..." Arent they all the same.
the same MIND YES-- But consider your thought befoe you birth it-- it still comes from the same mind -- The serpent is the cause of the action-- as theres never no cause without effect bro-- simples
QuoteYou say that the serpent is not an it, but you say "ITS the error of discsernment" isnt that an IT?
an it is an identfication hoping to split the difference of that being an ENTITY which you Belive to be OUTWARD---- does that explian?
Quote
Also I am not missing the purpose and plan of the Lord for mankind. I do not except the primise that there was a "fall"; I do believe that the Lord God had every intention of what happen in the garden. If the Lord God had purpose and plan then man did not fall.
The first time "sin" is used in the Bible is Gen.4:7 and it has to do with Cain. From what I can tell mans act was of disobedince
I realize that disobedience is missing the mark...sin...but the writer of Genesis did not call it that. Some to consider Yes?
sdo now your back tracking? HIS PURPOSE stands if we fall or Stand Bro----lest your now saying God really didnt Know the outcome? but No In reality he didnt fall bro as it was purposed The Lord had it covered from the OFF-- again we have to walk this out as did Adam and all of US-- althou sin is not mentioned - the simples of it it is to miss the MARK-- and thats what Adam did which Caused the birth of carnal mindedness = sin and death- It may not mention sin BUT missing the mark through the error of Judgment certainly is SIN
AND PHAROAH DIDNT AMKE ANY MISTAKES? well thats typivcal man isnt it--- of course HE DID , the carnal mind is what pharoah IS-- The RULER of the GREAT HOUSE- but we see the LORD hardeness his heart-- for mine tell me he was in control from the off--- that the carnal mind is destined to fall----- so why do you think is states in Romans that Pharoah was RAISED for HIS GLORY bro? any chance of answering some of mine too bro?
if may state brother you not seeing the soul being eve ect will no doubt play havoc with what in sharing-- alas L RAY doesnt teach that does he bro--- I like Ray spent may a Time there-- but alas for mine satan is Not an a entity and will not be saved come the Lake of fire as the lake of FIRE for mine is the CROSS---this is where we part Im afraid , not just that nut a few other things is why he kindly booted me from his forum-- God Bless HIM:icon_flower:
Perhaps the "nut" has forgot the three fingers pointing back at him....alas. I like L.Ray he makes Bible sense without making up a bunch of words not in the Word to explain what the Bible teaches.
I feel your "simples" is just to confusing for little ol me bro. But Thanks ...Peace and Love.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Perhaps the "nut" has forgot the three fingers pointing back at him....alas. I like L.Ray he makes Bible sense without making up a bunch of words not in the Word to explain what the Bible teaches.
I feel your "simples" is just to confusing for little ol me bro. But Thanks ...Peace and Love.
that was a Typo sorry- meaning BUT not NUT---- yeah I really loved his take on the twin towers----- -- Yikes--- as for teaching whats Not in the Bible can you show me the
TWIN TOWERS? In Lrays famous words "Ill now hold my Breath"
peace and love to Micah :HeartThrob:
To Micah, Taffy, & Nathan...
Just wanted to say that this has been a seriously GLORIOUS thread that I have been reading.
To Christ Jesus be praised!
I have more to share...will be back.
His blessings to each of you.
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 03:19:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Perhaps the "nut" has forgot the three fingers pointing back at him....alas. I like L.Ray he makes Bible sense without making up a bunch of words not in the Word to explain what the Bible teaches.
I feel your "simples" is just to confusing for little ol me bro. But Thanks ...Peace and Love.
that was a Typo sorry- meaning BUT not NUT---- yeah I really loved his take on the twin towers----- -- Yikes--- as for teaching whats Not in the Bible can you show me the TWIN TOWERS? In Lrays famous words "Ill now hold my Breath"
peace and love to Micah :HeartThrob:
Your right, but his take aint no different that other stories that religious people tell.
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. KJV
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.NIV
--1 Cor 2
Who are the princes of this age that crucified Christ, the ones from whom God kept the hidden wisdom? Are the Pharisees princes of this age? The Roman governors? What about the Jews?
"princes"
G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
I don't think the princes of this age are little men in red suits with pitchforks. In fact, I don't think they are men at all. But, I do think they are very real.
Maybe English doesn't do them justice, because what they are called in the Greek is much more formidable sounding, archon aion.
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 07:28:09 AM
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 03:19:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Perhaps the "nut" has forgot the three fingers pointing back at him....alas. I like L.Ray he makes Bible sense without making up a bunch of words not in the Word to explain what the Bible teaches.
I feel your "simples" is just to confusing for little ol me bro. But Thanks ...Peace and Love.
that was a Typo sorry- meaning BUT not NUT---- yeah I really loved his take on the twin towers----- -- Yikes--- as for teaching whats Not in the Bible can you show me the TWIN TOWERS? In Lrays famous words "Ill now hold my Breath"
peace and love to Micah :HeartThrob:
Your right, but his take aint no different that other stories that religious people tell.
Brother the Spirit Soul Body which many understand is VERY scriptural---- not a MYTH--
Eve is a Representaion of our SOUL bro- your mind, heart , will, desire and emoitions-- [ Check the meaning of SOUL] yes a a Living being but your more then JUST a Living Being arent you- -- so the female part of us is Known as the Soul- Mind etc---
so In Type the Flesh= soul = female -- the LORD sees
ALL flesh being FEMALE bro-- ever wonder why the Lord is as a Man and HIS BRIDE a WOMAN- WHEN IN THE kINGDOM EVERYONE IS SEXLESS?
so why do you think Paul taLkes of a WOMAN whos covering her HAIR bro--- The flesh of man is the woman and its the flesh as with EVE WHICH CAUSED sin which needs a covering BRO-- paul again speaking in the fgurative--- But what do folk take/.. again the literal-- :sigh:
1Cr 11:15 But if a
woman have long hair, it is a
glory to her: for [her] hair is
given her for a covering. this IS all VERY SCRIPTURAL BUT again Hidden unless you compare the spiritual with the spiritual----- :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Molly on April 19, 2011, 09:49:31 AM
7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. KJV
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.NIV
--1 Cor 2
Who are the princes of this age that crucified Christ, the ones from whom God kept the hidden wisdom? Are the Pharisees princes of this age? The Roman governors? What about the Jews?
"princes"
G758
ἄρχων
archōn
ar'-khone
Present participle of G757; a first (in rank or power): - chief (ruler), magistrate, prince, ruler.
I don't think the princes of this age are little men in red suits with pitchforks. In fact, I don't think they are men at all. But, I do think they are very real.
Maybe English doesn't do them justice, because what they are called in the Greek is much more formidable sounding, archon aion.
Good morning Molly- :icon_flower:
Princes are Men molly-- plain simple men who again in TYPE portray the Flesh= Carnal Mind-- again scripture as a wheel moves to the pharisses again a type also portraying Princes = Men = the carnal Mind-- Tis why the scripture mentions PUT no TRUST in PRINCES--ie put no trust in your EVE= your flesh- your carnal mind---
Psa 118:8 [It is]
better to trust in the LORD than to
put confidence in man. Psa 118:9 [It is] better to
trust in the LORD than to put
confidence in princes Psa 119:23
Princes also did sit [and] speak against me: [
but] thy servant did meditate in thy statutes. Psa 107:40 He
poureth contempt upon princes, and
causeth them to wander in the wilderness, [
where there is] no way who are the KINGS of the EARTH= simple men the lord mentions in Math about the KINGS of the EARTH and Trbute
148:11 Kings of the earth, and all people; princes, and all judges of the earth:
Psa 82:6 I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Psa 82:7 But y
e shall die like men, and
fall like one of the princes. Psa 82:8 Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
So again why the PRINCE of this world- who many believe to be that wee fella with a Pitch folk in truth is no more then the carnal mind= Flesh= he that opposes or is adverse etc---
Christ overcome = Judged well unlike EVE the soul of man and was accepted as our TRUE sacrifice--- theres was NO devil dragging him anywhere by the arm-- this all took place in the realm of HIS MIND-- as Nate points outs too--- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
So again why the PRINCE of this world- who many believe to be that wee fella with a Pitch folk
Even I'm beyond that point...
Who/what are the beast and false prophet?
YLTRev 2010 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2011, 01:44:18 PM
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 01:29:39 PM
So again why the PRINCE of this world- who many believe to be that wee fella with a Pitch folk
Even I'm beyond that point...
Who/what are the beast and false prophet?
YLTRev 20
10 and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night--to the ages of the ages.
Rofl WW-- how about those Dantes comics-- you beyond those too-lol
yup forever and ever and ever as THE carnal mind will perish for all eternity as it WILL be NO more by the Time the LORD sift that MIND out of us------ so lets say this--- for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever= 7 makes PERFECT--- yehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! :icon_flower:
ps- Dont forget Leviathan--- that sea critter , its going to hurt that literal beast though----- how strange-- the Fire is symbolic but we cast a Literal BEAST into it----- will the penny ever DROP-ROFL :icon_flower:
Do I sense some sarchasm there o thou great pit lord :winkgrin:
So if the guy with the pitchfork is my mind then who is the beast/prophet/
Quote from: WhiteWings on April 19, 2011, 02:40:27 PM
Do I sense some sarchasm there o thou great pit lord :winkgrin:
So if the guy with the pitchfork is my mind then who is the beast/prophet/
nO ww-- Just plain simple logic--- :icon_flower: :winkgrin:
The False Prophet is HE, like the ANTI christ WHO SITS on the LORDS THRONE= MIND thinking himself god ---- theres only two minds- the carnal mind which opposes or HIS which is TRUTH--- the carnal like Eve needs to be in subjection to to HIS MIND= BE ONE through obedience- NOTthe other way about -
The Beast is satan , the devil, leviathan , Th great dragon, the Flase Prophet, the Anti Christ which are ALLthe carnal mindedness of man being DEATH---
The Lord disposes of the Flase Prophet as the THRONE in which HE THINKs HE sits is RIGHTLY the LORDS and comes BACK to TAKE it Like a Theif in the NIGHT------
as Job mentions MEN ARE "BEASTS""" its the same WW told different ways-- its LORDS way of hiding HIS Truth from carnal Intellects of men who try to search Him out by intellect alone-- that my friend can never ever be DONE-- LAY THAT Mind to rest and TRUST in HIM and llet his rivers flow through YOU and you RISE above the natural\Physical coming to understand , Not Just litraleese but The language he SPEAKS in through the figurative----so much is missed without seeing types shadows and Patterns :sigh:
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 01:14:58 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 07:28:09 AM
Quote from: Taffy on April 19, 2011, 03:19:46 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on April 19, 2011, 03:10:55 AM
Perhaps the "nut" has forgot the three fingers pointing back at him....alas. I like L.Ray he makes Bible sense without making up a bunch of words not in the Word to explain what the Bible teaches.
I feel your "simples" is just to confusing for little ol me bro. But Thanks ...Peace and Love.
that was a Typo sorry- meaning BUT not NUT---- yeah I really loved his take on the twin towers----- -- Yikes--- as for teaching whats Not in the Bible can you show me the TWIN TOWERS? In Lrays famous words "Ill now hold my Breath"
peace and love to Micah :HeartThrob:
Your right, but his take aint no different that other stories that religious people tell.
Brother the Spirit Soul Body which many understand is VERY scriptural---- not a MYTH--
Eve is a Representaion of our SOUL bro- your mind, heart , will, desire and emoitions-- [ Check the meaning of SOUL] yes a a Living being but your more then JUST a Living Being arent you- -- so the female part of us is Known as the Soul- Mind etc---
so In Type the Flesh= soul = female -- the LORD sees ALL flesh being FEMALE bro-- ever wonder why the Lord is as a Man and HIS BRIDE a WOMAN- WHEN IN THE kINGDOM EVERYONE IS SEXLESS?
so why do you think Paul taLkes of a WOMAN whos covering her HAIR bro--- The flesh of man is the woman and its the flesh as with EVE WHICH CAUSED sin which needs a covering BRO-- paul again speaking in the fgurative--- But what do folk take/.. again the literal-- :sigh:
1Cr 11:15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for [her] hair is given her for a covering.
this IS all VERY SCRIPTURAL BUT again Hidden unless you compare the spiritual with the spiritual----- :HeartThrob:
Perhaps, but also it could just be your own spiritual opinion. I wont go any futher, but out in the world of regligion I venture to say there would be found at least a dozen others who will say....
"this IS all VERY SCRIPTURAL BUT again Hidden unless you compare the spiritual with the spiritual----- :HeartThrob:"
"Brother the Spirit Soul Body which many understand is VERY scriptural---- not a MYTH--"
I understand quite well what spirit soul body is, when taken from the Word in Genesis2:7 that is a statement of error, a living soul(creature) is body and spirit.
Rather than use the word soul, the word sentient would be more understandable, if we are to understand what the Bible tells us in the beginning what a living soul is. The opposite would be an unliving or dead soul which to me is nothing or not a soul.
:cloud9: "He" (and He called THEIR name Adam) WAS a dead soul, until the life/breath of the Spirit came in. He has to create a vessel to manifest in and thru!
But that vessel is quickened or enlivened so the Spirit can manifest thru it, first with that measure of faith to receive Him, which is what the soul IS is. We grow from glory to glory, and the first glory we receive, is the LESSER GLORY (soul), who has no light (quickening) of it's own, but must receive (like seed is received) from the GREATER GLORY.
The natural bears this principle witness as ALL babies are female until a certain point in their gestation, when if He deems them to be male, they become male, as He forms us in our mother's womb. Well, in the spiritual sense, He forms us in our mother's womb also, taking the soul and so consuming it, that "she" eventually "becomes" a "he", in the sense that "he" is now the VISIBLE one. The invisible God desired visibility.
The fact there is neither male nor female in the Kingdom does not mean it's because there is NEITHER, but because there is BOTH, but one is hidden in the other. Christ was hidden in the bosom of the Father, and when He came He didn't just manifest as the Father in nature, but also manifested as the mother (wisdom) to those that had ears to hear, because she is hidden. And she is hidden, because carnal men put her to shame. Which is why, Joseph, a righteous man, started to hide away Mary, so that she would not be put to an open shame, ie. manifesting what he had "seen" His Father do. More on this, if I ever get the time, sigh....... :winkgrin:
:sigh:
QuoteMore on this, if I ever get the time, sigh.......
:icon_flower:
I pray you do Card :icon_flower: :cloud9:
As do I, Card. :HeartThrob:
But, in the meantime, Taffy please do continue! :icon_flower:
To understand what Jesus meant by Gehenna, I suggest we need to consider its meaning in the context of scripture, rather than Jewish myths and fables, that Paul warned against in Titus 1:14.
The comments of Jesus about Gehenna were based upon scripture, and especially the prophecies of Jeremiah, not the traditions of men. Jesus said of the scribes and Pharisees, they "transgress the commandment of God" by their tradition. [Matthew 15:3]
Zechariah said that all the land round about Jerusalem would become a plain, and Jerusalem would be lifted up.
Zechariah 14:10-11
All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
The idea that "Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited," points to Jerusalem as the dwelling place of those who have obtained salvation. The prophecy applies to the heavenly Jerusalem. The earthly city offered the Jews no safety in 70 AD.
The places mentioned above, Benjamin's gate, and the corner gate, are east-west extremities of the city, and the tower of Hananeel to the king's winepresses were the northern and southern limits of the city; the limits specified seem to exclude the valley of Hinnom. That would be in the region that becomes a plain.
Zechariah's prophecy compares with the prophecy of Isaiah, who also said Jerusalem and Zion would be exulted above the hills. [Isaiah 2:1-3] In the New Testament these prophecies are fulfilled as Jerusalem is in heaven, and the earthly Jerusalem is identified with Hagar the Egyptian bondwoman who was cast out of Abraham's house. [Galatians 4:24-31]
In Zechariah, the nations coming against Jerusalem corresponds to Revelation 20:8-9, where deceived people from all nations come against "the camp of the saints" and "the beloved city," which is the new Jerusalem, the church.
As for those nations who come against Jerusalem, In Zechariah 14, they were threatened with a plague.
Zechariah 14:12
And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
"Their tongue shall consume away in their mouth," IMO is metaphorical. It applied to the Jews who were unable to reply when Jesus asked them a question, which they were unable to answer.
Matthew 22:46
And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.
Their eyes consuming away in their holes is also metaphorical; Jesus called the scribes and Pharisees "blind guides." [Matthew 23:16, 24]
He said they "shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." [Matthew 23:13]
Thus, their eyes consuming away in their holes refers to spiritual blindness.
This helps to show why Jesus said they were in peril of the threat of Gehenna in Matthew 23:33; Jerusalem represents the kingdom of heaven, and they not only did not get into it themselves, but hindered others from doing so.
Zechariah said that the nations which came against Jerusalem would fight each other.
Zechariah 14:13
And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
This "great tumult" is evident amongst Christians, who seek to interpret prophecy, yet cling to their traditions. Dispensationalists at war with Preterists; partial and hyper-Preterists at war; classical Dispensationalists, progressive Dispensationalists, ultra-Dispensationalists, mid-Acts Dispensationalists, etc., all at war. And tens of thousands of denominations. Clearly, this prophecy is being fulfilled.
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2011, 08:14:47 AM
Quote from: Doug on April 16, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.
Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all. But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New). :2c:
Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah about the future of the valley of Hinnom, which say that it will become "holy unto the Lord." This is easily understood, when Jesus' references to Gehenna are seen in the context of a judgment, which those who are accounted unworthy to enter the kingdom of heaven and the holy city must endure.
While in the prophecies of Isaiah and of Zechariah Jerusalem was to be raised up, in Jeremiah's prophecy, Jerusalem was to be enlarged, or extended beyond the boundaries of the walls that existed in his time.
Isaiah said Jerusalem and Mount Zion would be "established in the top of the mountains" and "exalted above the hills." [Isaiah 2:1-3] Zechariah said Jerusalem would be "lifted up" and "and inhabited in her place" while the surrounding country would become "as a plain." [Zechariah 14:9]
A very curious enigma is apparent when we compare the prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah about Jerusalem being raised up on the one hand, and the prophecy of Ezekiel 47:1-12, about a river flowing from the temple towards the east, on the other. The river in Ezekiel 47 gradually increases in depth. The gradient of the land implied by Ezekiel's prophecy does not fit the existing topography, in the area between the site of the temple and the mount of Olives, as he described the water first at his ankles, then at his knees, and then at his loins, etc, as he walked towards the east, and it implies that the depth of the river increases at a rate of about three feet in the distance of about half a mile, which is the gradient one might find on a large parking lot, or on a football field. If Jerusalem were raised up, as Isaiah and Zechariah's prophecies say, the slope of the land would be much greater, and so the problem of how such a gradient of the river would be possible, is increased.
The solution is plain: Ezekiel's river is not a literal one, and the prophecies of Isaiah and Zechariah about Jerusalem becoming "raised up" refer to the heavenly Jerusalem, not the earthly one. It was "raised up" when Jesus ascended to heaven, Acts 1:9. The river described by Ezekiel represents the gospel going forth from the church. Zechariah gives a similar prophecy in Zechariah 14:8; he says these are rivers of "living water," and Jesus identified "rivers of living water" with the Spirit. [John 7:38-39]
Consider Jeremiah's prophecy about the extension of the boundaries of Jerusalem, in Jeremiah 31. This chapter contains a prophecy about a new covenant, [Jeremiah 31:31-34] which is quoted in Hebrews 8:8-12 and 10:16-17, and applied to the church. Jeremiah wrote:
Jeremiah 31:38-40
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.
These verses describe the future boundaries of the city, referring to seven landmarks. These landmarks are the Tower of Hananel, the Corner Gate, the hill Gareb, another hill named Goah or Goath, the valley of dead bodies and ashes, the fields as far as the brook Kidron, and the Horse Gate. The order in which these seven places are mentioned is as if the prophet was making a circuit of the city in a counterclockwise direction, beginning at the northeast of the city.
The Tower of Hananel was located in the north wall of the city, near the northeast corner. It was between the fish gate and the sheep gate. [Nehemiah 12:39] In Zechariah 14:10 it represents the northern limit of the city, while the king's winepress is the southern limit.
The Corner Gate marked the northwest limit of the city. It marked the western limit, in Zechariah 14:10, while in that verse, Benjamin's gate marks the eastern limit. It was associated with the Ephraim Gate in 2 Kings 14:13 and 2 Chronicles 25:23, so it must be located at the northwest corner of the city.
Gareb means "scabby," and refers to a hill which was the dwelling place of lepers, outside of the city. Its precise location is uncertain, but it was no doubt a hill to the west of the city.
Goah, or Goath, means "lowing" (Easton's Bible Dictionary; Smith's Bible Dictionary) or "his roaring" (Hitchcock's Bible Names Dictionary). It may possibly be Abu Tor (Giv'at HaNanya) (lit. "Father of the Bull"), bounded by the Valley of Hinnom on the north.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Tor
The valley of dead bodies is the Hinnom Valley or Gehenna.
The fields as far as the brook Kidron extends the boundaries of the city eastward to the brook Kidron.
The Horse Gate opened upon the Valley of Kidron, and was located in the east wall, near the Temple.
For a scholarly study of these locations, and a review of several interpretations of Jeremiah's prophecy, see:
Dennis M. Swanson. Expansion of Jerusalem in Jer 31:38-40: never, already or not yet? (http://www.tms.edu/tmsj/17b.pdf) The Master's Seminary Journal 17/1 (Spring 2006) 17-34.
Jeremiah's prophecy about the extension of Jerusalem's boundaries indicates that the valley of Hinnom or
Gehenna will eventually be included in Jerusalem, which represents the holy city, the saints. This is significant in the light of statements by Jesus about Gehenna; he referred to it as a judgment, that Christians are encouraged to avoid, at all costs, even if it means suffering the loss of an eye, or a hand, or a foot. The prophecy of Jeremiah shows the intended results of the judgment that Gehenna represents.
In Revelation 7, two groups are described. The first group, of those who are sealed, represent the saints, who are also described in Revelation 14:1-5. They are "the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."
John says: "in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." [Revelation 14:5] They are the ones who gain entry to the holy city, and who are included in the new covenant. The second group, the great multitude which no man can number, includes all those who missed out, and who are "left behind" at the coming of Christ. John said, "These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." [Revelation 7:14] "They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." [Revelation 7:16-17]
Doug
Gehenna and the land promise (http://vinyl2.sentex.net/%7Etcc/VH/VH-index.php)
Quote from: Doug on April 20, 2011, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2011, 08:14:47 AM
Quote from: Doug on April 16, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.
Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all. But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New). :2c:
Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah
I see that as too much of a generalization/too "strong" of a statement.
I don't believe that seeing the connection of gehenna to the judgment of Israel in 70 AD excludes any other relevant prophecies or events, including the restoration of the valley. IMO, if one were to say gehenna and Israel's judgment related to the passing of the old covenant were unrelated at all,
that would be missing much.
Quote from: jabcat on April 21, 2011, 02:40:22 AM
Quote from: Doug on April 20, 2011, 03:46:24 PM
Quote from: jabcat on April 16, 2011, 08:14:47 AM
Quote from: Doug on April 16, 2011, 07:12:25 AM
it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.
Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all. But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New). :2c:
Interpretations of Gehenna that appeal to events of 70 AD miss the significance of the prophecies of Jeremiah
I see that as too much of a generalization/too "strong" of a statement.
I don't believe that seeing the connection of gehenna to the judgment of Israel in 70 AD excludes any other relevant prophecies or events, including the restoration of the valley. IMO, if one were to say gehenna and Israel's judgment related to the passing of the old covenant were unrelated at all, that would be missing much.
A problem with the 70 AD idea is that it limits the warnings of Jesus about
Gehenna to ethnic Jews of the first century only, whereas they apply to Christians of every age. IMO, none of the things said of
Gehenna in the New Testament apply specifically to the events of 70 AD; plucking out an eye, cutting off a hand or a foot cannot apply to ethnic Jews as a nation; calling ones' brother a "fool" would not apply to the nation, etc.
Jeremiah's prophecy about the restoration of the valley of Hinnom [Jeremiah 31:38-40] is given in the context of the prophecy about the new covenant, [Jeremiah 31:31-33] which is applied to the church in Hebrews 8 & 11.
In Jeremiah 31:38, the city is to be built "to the Lord." "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD..." Often, the phrase "to the Lord" was used in connection with offerings, service, "turn to the Lord," "holy to the Lord," etc.
Ephesians 6:7
With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
Colossians 3:23
And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
It is the opposite of "
against the Lord."
Jesus is building his church; David wrote, "The LORD doth build up Jerusalem: he gathereth together the outcasts of Israel." [Psalm 147:2] This is the heavenly Jerusalem, not the one made with hands.
Hebrews 11:10
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
Paul wrote: "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens." [2 Corinthians 5:1]
In Jeremiah's prophecy, the restoration of Jerusalem is to be forever. Jeremiah 31:40: "...it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever." This can only apply to the heavenly city, not the earthly one.
Doug
A city built by God (http://creationconcept.wordpress.com/2011/01/19/a-city-built-by-god/)
Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Mans opinion
John 8:48
Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil(carnality)?
Vs Gods opinion
John 8:49
Jesus answered, I have not a devil(carnality); but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
John 10:21
Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil(carnality). Can a devil(carnality) open the eyes of the blind?
Peace in Christ
Just for second there TT i was BLOWN away---- consider the Mind -- the LIAR, the accusser, the Murderer, the THEIF, HE which stands In oppostion, Falsehood, wickedenss, death, , WORDLY wisdom,The enmity, confusion,sin, Deception, Utruth,did the LORD have any of these-- seems HE put these to DEATH to? :HeartThrob:
who was the roaring LION---- The Lion King from the Movies----? seeking who who could EAT---- we are what we eat... believe LIES youll tell lies-?-- ---When genesis mention we are to Have DOMINION over the animal, such animals are a Part of Nature-- why on earth do you think ANIMALS of various sorts depict the charachter and NATURE of Christ come the sacrifiCes-----I gather youR NO SHEEP? :icon_flower:
Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Quote from: thinktank on April 21, 2011, 10:29:40 PM
Matthew 26:31
Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.
John 10:14
I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
The LION is obviously SATAN as He did with the Serpent -- SOMEONE who enters the Bodies of ANIMALS---- But you SEE the Metaphor and the Figurative of Being a SHEEP-- WHICH WAS THE very POINT OF THE post TT--- :icon_flower:
why a SHEEP AND goat? what thes Nature of a Sheep?
Theres But two Scriptues within the WHOLE book which mention The POWER of DEATH - No more-- one is the DEVIL the Other is the TONGUE---- what would you state the common ground is--- ie Life and Death are In the POWER of the Tonguw--- I thought it was the little Guy in a red Suit--- whatS he got to do with the TONGUE?-- OR IS SCRIPTURE NOW SOME bIG FABLE---
Pro 18:21 Death and life [are] in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.
Hbr 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.
A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.
Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.
Who has the power of death, Tongue or devil?
I think a good starting point is to look at that scripture again and find that the tongue has power of life.
So does that mean that we only need the tongue in order to live? Do we need Christ?
The scripture states that christ has the power to resurect and give life, but can the tongue do that?
The tongue can give life in the sense of encouraging one another and saying good words, but its christ who gives life.
So if one applies this on the opposite end, we have the devil who has power over death and the tongue who contributes towards death.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on April 21, 2011, 10:53:41 PM
Who has the power of death, Tongue or devil?
I think a good starting point is to look at that scripture again and find that the tongue has power of life.
So does that mean that we only need the tongue in order to live? Do we need Christ?
The scripture states that christ has the power to resurect and give life, but can the tongue do that?
The tongue can give life in the sense of encouraging one another and saying good words, but its christ who gives life.
So if one applies this on the opposite end, we have the devil who has power over death and the tongue who contributes towards death.
:2c:
What activates The TONGUE? and yes Its able to SPEAK LIFE as WELL-- which is more then the Devil can do Right?
Quote from: thinktank on April 21, 2011, 10:49:04 PM
A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.
A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.
Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.
so now your not seing SHEEP your seeing Natures-----
EXACTLY---- :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
your not REALLy a SHEEP are you ? so whats TTHE NATURE of of another animal, maybe a serpent as all NAMES define a NATURE, the NATURE of satan\devil--- BUT fol;k cant get passed this ENTITY being REALWhen the LORD says-- You are of you FATHER the Devil a LIAR murderer from the Beginning--- do really Think SATAN GOES AROUND impregnating HIS seed as a LITERAL FATHER------???
Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Yes the tongue speaks life, so how can it be exclusively carnal flesh.
Quote from: thinktank on April 21, 2011, 11:04:54 PM
Luke 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
Yes the tongue speaks life, so how can it be exclusively carnal flesh.
the Tongue can Only do One or two-- iether SPEAK death or SPEAK life--- so who spoke DEATH and who speaks LIFE-- :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on April 21, 2011, 11:03:38 PM
Quote from: thinktank on April 21, 2011, 10:49:04 PM
A goat is a rebelious animal that often breaks fences and generally is upto mischief a lot.
A sheep on the other hand sometimes behaves the same, but I believe the type of sheep Christ had in mind is not the typical sheep, but rather, well trained sheep, that follow their sheperd wherever he goes. There are certain farmers and countries who have a good relationship with their sheep and their sheep will follow the sheperd across fields and villages.
Sometimes less trained sheep follow sheperds, but mostly only when the farmer has plenty of food to give them.
so now your not seing SHEEP your seeing Natures----- EXACTLY---- :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:
your not REALLy a SHEEP are you ? so whats TTHE NATURE of of another animal, maybe a serpent as all NAMES define a NATURE, the NATURE of satan\devil--- BUT fol;k cant get passed this ENTITY being REALWhen the LORD says-- You are of you FATHER the Devil a LIAR murderer from the Beginning--- do really Think SATAN GOES AROUND impregnating HIS seed as a LITERAL FATHER------???
You seem to be going around in circles Taff. You have stated before that it is -silly- of people to think of satan as a literal dragon with a red pitch fork etc etc. There are very few Christians I know of who thinks that the devil is a literal dragon.
The images you see on tv concerning the devil and the pitchfolk, is Hollywoods and the worlds definition of Satan. I also heard that the images of one devil on the left shoulder and an angel on the right shoulder, comes from Islam.
It seems to be that you associated worldy definitions of Satan and applied them to the believers.
In biblical passages the devil is seen as the prince of the air and is cast down the the earth, not a hollywood version, worldly person or certain christian groups idea of a little imp with a pitchfolk under the earth, tormenting sinners.
Perhaps this helps clear up some misunderstandings.
But back to your questions. This is a contreversial topic, but this is what Jesus said.
Whosever sins is of the devil, because the devil sinneth from the begining.
So when we sin we are spiritually connecting to the devil, because he invented sin, so perhaps this means we become like him, in the sense that the son follows the fathers footsteps, or it means that we connect to the devil somehow and draw energy or darkness from him in order to sin. I think it seems a bit extreme to think we connect to the devil when we sin, but Jesus was the only one who had not sinned, and he said that the prince of the world has nothing in me. So maybe an alcaholic has elements of darkness within him, etc, perhaps not the devil himself, but his devices, perhaps his devices consist of manipilated genes, so that the genes are programmed to behave other as God intended. But I think merely reducing it to genes is a bit crude. The human body is much more advanced than that, and also contains unique underlying energetic patterns that help shape the body and energy levels. I perceive that the devil uses his devices on these energy fields, to manipilate and destroy.
:2c:
- The tongue which speaks death pertian to those who believed in the Ministry of DEATH-- those who speak LIFE confess with their TONGUE to the LIFE who are believiing and speaking CHRIST THE savior[ life] OF THE world---Hence the LIFE and DEATH are in the POWER of the Tongue---- so the TONGUE speaks TRUTH or lies pertaining to Law V grace and TRUTH----the JEWS BEING THEir Father the DEVIL, were the CARNAL minded IN DEATH--shows the ongoing picture of the cause from the out set being the ENIMITY birthed by Eve= carnal Mind---- the carnal MIND is the satan\devil\ Serpent, - even the JEWS today still have the nature of the BEAST being the devil being in their CLOSED carnal reasoning---- - :icon_flower: be well have good day :icon_flower: time to move on :HeartThrob:
TT, are you saying it is possible for the flesh to be sanctified [made holy] in this life?
1 Corinthians 6:20
For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 Thessalonians 5:23
And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes, that's what those verses state. Also scripture tells us that Jesus did not sin. But if Jesus came in the flesh and then lived inside a body of sinfull condition, then wouldn't he be unholy, unclean?
He was tempted but without sin.
The nature of the flesh is that temptation stimulates it, but if the flesh be clean, then it no longer commands, but resorts to demands, and this helps us to survive. Because if the flesh did not demand, then we would not bother or forget to eat food. But sometimes with people the flesh commands and we become a slave to the demands of the body.
Jesus did not sin, but his flesh demanded food, water, oxygen to keep him alive in a sense he become a lowly worm like us, no longer to be the God like impossibility, but limited in the flesh.
John 13:10
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
:cloud9: Try this on for size.........Leviathan is in the sea (sea of humanity).......leviathan is as the tongue, that NO MAN can tame, but GOD can put a hook (Christ) in it, and lead it where He would, giving it HIS breath to speak. This is why the serpents slayed them in the wilderness (they reaped what they sowed, we are reproved with our OWN wickedness), yet they had to make a BRAZEN (speaks of judgment to the flesh, the brazen altar for killing flesh, also the cross) serpent, ie. a serpent/tongue that went to the cross, to look up upon and be healed/made whole.
Serpents live in the dust realm, but looking up at one raised from the dead (dust realm), since we become what we behold (changed as we perceive from glory to glory), makes us whole and changes our position which changes our confession, which changes what we reap. This is why He said He ONLY spoke that which He heard His Father speak, because He was overcoming leviathan in what He (as the pre-existant Christ) had been lowered into.
Which is why Paul said, our CONVERSATION is from HEAVEN (as we behold the serpent on a pole). You can't speak out of a place you've never been before. Being seated in heavenly places does NOT mean we're sitting down; a seat is a foundation, the SEA below us becomes as glass (hardened as rock), the letter Word accomplished in us becomes the foundation Rock we stand on, our "footstool", just as it was His footstool, ie. "the earth is My footstool, and heaven is my throne".
This is how Christ could come walking to Peter on the water; the water is as the waters below the firmament (heaven), and become as rock to stand on when the Spirit-breathed Word is obeyed, fulling the letter. My :2c:......got to run :sigh: Blessings....
:thumbsup: that Fits very well indeed :icon_flower: dont run Card, not on those knees --- good to see you back sister :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Taffy on April 25, 2011, 11:48:29 PM
:thumbsup: :icon_flower: dont run Card
Busy time for harvesting angels :angel5:
:winkgrin:
now aint that thr Truth! :icon_flower:
:cloud9: I'm kinda sorta back, but working so many hours finding time to sleep is a challenge, much less anything else. But PRAISE GOD good things are happening all around at long last. God is so good and worthy to be praised....... :girlheart: