Myth of Gehenna

[Taffy]

The issue with this satan Guy bro-- many churches use it as fear Tactic not unlike HELL to condemn---aghhhhhhhhhh :sigh:

[Taffy]

Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.

so says Brother Ray? :icon_flower: --- Bless Him

[Molly]

Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.

so says Brother Ray? :icon_flower: --- Bless Him

That's what I've been trying to say --with the caveat that Satan is a spirit that is outside of us.  Otherwise, what is there to channel?  :sigh:

The mind of Christ will not channel Satan.  Stops him cold at the door.

But if you don't mean to say that the carnal mind IS Satan, then make that clear.

[Nathan]

Really?  So the carnal mind, when left up to it's own devices, would never "accuse" anyone of anything?  It's really "not" at emnity against God then?  It's not at war with kingdom principles?  It doesn't try to diffuse spiritual truths planted in the spirit of men?  It doesn't attack that which it doesn't understand? 

How many times do we as individuals berate ourselves at one time or another?  Just take a glance at Hollywoods reality shows . . .you'll see carnality at it's finest hour.  People sleeing with any willing partner . . .my mind taking any ole idea to bed . . .even though we're instructed to take captive our thoughts.  Doesn't sound like a devil at work, just a carnal desire.   I still think the church has given devils too much power . . .does not scripture state we can walk ON them and not be harmed???  Traditional churches will make a denomination out of demonica activity.  Paul just shakes the snakes off and goes about his business.  In fact, the guys that saw him get bitten wanted to make a memorial out of him and he denounced them for it.  Peter did the same thing on the mount of transfiguration. 

The good news is not about beating up a spiritual nemisis.  It's about pursuing Christ.   

Another question that really hasn't been addressed or answered . . . How can satan approach God and not be affected by God's purity and presence???  I find it interesting that people embrace satan as tradition has portrayed him to be, but yet no one really can answer the bigger questions out there.  No one ever did answer the question about what is an allegory and what is literal with Jesus being led up the mountain to be tempted. 

You want to reject a dimensional approach, but you aren't able to explain the can of beans that the literal approach constantly spills out.  Jesus asked Peter what he'd heard others say about Jesus, but Jesus wasn't satisfied with Peter having a relationship with him based on someone elses explanation or definition . . . .Jesus wanted Peter's personal experience as to who he saw Jesus to be.  Quoting commentaires for me, is a bit of a cop out . . .it's saying "I don't have an experience of my own, I choose to ride "this guy's" coat tails on the matter.

And that's what religion has done to us, we find a group of people that agree on a thought or theory and we identfy ourselves with "people's conclusions rather than our own personal revelations.

The thing is, Jesus is going to appear, but not in the form the mind of a man expects him to appear.  And if man is filling his hands with man-made ideas, then man will find it extremely difficult to embrace that which he can't see because his hands are too full of things he things he understands.  Lose your life . . .lose your identity . . .give up what you think you know so well and see where God takes you from there.  There's a whole other world of truth and life beyond our understanding and throwing ourselved into what is literal is not going to get us into those ascended places (mountain regions) where God's spirit can then pour out upon our flesh.

This isn't about who's right, but who's willing?

[Molly]

Let me put it another way..

Nathan, do you think Satan is not a spirit that exists independently of man?

[micah7:9]

I agree with you my friend, man has taken the tact that the literal is how we are to see. I believe that it is spiritual understanding that opens the door of the mind of Christ.
And to clarify the carnal mind is not the "adversary-satan." If I read Genesis correctlly the carnal mind was there before the serpent was revealed.
CARNAL G4559  sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Molly is correct I believe, Jesus did not have a carnal mind even in His flesh body. I believe that His flesh body was for identification purposes, so that mankind could see Him.
Joh 1:18  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

I believe the adversary is a spirit who needs mankind to work through, without mankind there is no need for an adversary. :2c:

then I suggest you have a LOOK to the Root meaning- tell us what you FIND

[Nathan]

Let me put it another way..

Nathan, do you think Satan is not a spirit that exists independently of man?

Molly, I'm saying it's irrelevant.  I'm saying there's so much more to truth and life than defining who the devil is or isn't.  I'm saying that the satan I do see in me is where my responsibility lies . . . taking captive "my" own thoughts . .working out "my" own salvation.  That's where the battle truly lies . . .not out there in the literal world worrying about some red beast with a pointy tail that may or may not have the ability to tempt Christ.  I asked the questions I did in hopes that many would take a monute and actually listen to what they're saying.  It's just crazy to think that a literal evil enemy of God could tempt Jesus . . .yet we'll spend all of our waking hours trying to dissect how that could even be a possitbility instead of simply worshiping God for who he is in us.

Pursuing Chirst who is spirit is extremely difficult to do if I'm embracing everything to be literally applied.  I know how my mind works and it sucks.  It's limited at best . . .so why on earth would I want to embrace my limitations when I could instead drown myself in his infinity?  But there's a veil between here and there . . .and the tools I use to sustain natural life here just aren't meant to be applied when I enter over "there".  The hardest thing for man to do is truly lay down his mind . . .his mind is everything he's got, man couldn't ever imagine not being governed by his conscious, decision-making processes . . .yet that's what faith is all about.

The thing about walking primarily by revelation rather than knowledge is . . .there never comes a time where I am confident in myself that I've finally figured it out.  Revelation is a living experience, it has no platues.  It's continual and never ending.  I say stuff I've never heard before and it's not because it's about me . . .it's because there's a venue that God had originally orchestrated with Adam that has been cut-off ever since the tree of Knowledge came on the scene.  God's word is not on paper . . .you know that and I know that . . .it's in the hearts of men.  Yet when it comes to sharing what is being seen, the first thing we revert to is that which we read instead of that which we hear.  All the while, faith doesn't come by reading or studying . . it comes by "hearing".  Because when faith becomes engaged, the reading goes to a whole other level of "seeing".  And that's what we've been talking about all this time.  The enablement to see the kingdom of God through our spirit once we get our minds into a place of observation rather than operation.

When we come into this we realize that what we hear is "within" what we read.  But if we build our faith solely on what we read, we miss being able to truly hear.

[Nathan]

I agree with you my friend, man has taken the tact that the literal is how we are to see. I believe that it is spiritual understanding that opens the door of the mind of Christ.
And to clarify the carnal mind is not the "adversary-satan." If I read Genesis correctlly the carnal mind was there before the serpent was revealed.
CARNAL G4559  sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh, that is, (by extension) bodily, temporal, or (by implication) animal, unregenerate: - carnal, fleshly.
Molly is correct I believe, Jesus did not have a carnal mind even in His flesh body. I believe that His flesh body was for identification purposes, so that mankind could see Him.
Joh 1:18  God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.

I believe the adversary is a spirit who needs mankind to work through, without mankind there is no need for an adversary. :2c:

Well, that would explain why we get into such discussions . . I see it quite differently.  I see Christ not coming into the flesh just to appear to us, but to redeem our flesh back to him, but to do so, he had to become that which he was redeeming.  Which is also why I "don't" see him returning to the flesh "in the flesh".  Because he's already redeemed me back to him . . .so that I can be where he is eternally, not the other way around.

[micah7:9]

" I see Christ not coming into the flesh just to appear to us, but to redeem our flesh back to him, but to do so, he had to become that which he was redeeming. "

Im sorry I thought the second would be evident.

[micah7:9]

"then I suggest you have a LOOK to the Root meaning- tell us what you FIND."

The root meanding of what?

[Taffy]

to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen

the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent-  :icon_flower:

[redhotmagma]

Hey Nathan, do you believe in actual resurrections?  Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)?  A literal 1000 year period?  What happens after you die?  Will we have a physical glorified body, existing on earth, in (and out) of space and time?

I may be thinking carnally by asking these questions :laughing7: but you definitely present a much different picture than what I've grown up with.  I'm just trying to flesh out all the details in my mind :grin:  In all seriousness I'd like to have a better idea where you're coming from.  You definitely speak a foreign language, I'd just like to see how those things translate.

[micah7:9]

to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen

the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent-  :icon_flower:

No serpent birthed the carnal mind, that mind came at the breath of life when man BECAME a living soul. I reason that when man was put in a deep sleep and the woman was made from the "flesh" (CARNAL G4559  sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh,) the mind of man was prepared for the next purpose in the plan of the Lord God. The mind(heart) is nothing more than the channel which is used

[Taffy]

to practice divination, divine, observe signs, learn by experience, diligently observe, practice fortunetelling, take as an omen

the serpent Bro which Birthed the Carnal Mind-- Eve is Adams MIND right= soul -- so what we see is what happens in the mind of ADAM-- the birthing of the carnal Mind through the error of discrnment being the Serpent-  :icon_flower:

No serpent birthed the carnal mind, that mind came at the breath of life when man BECAME a living soul. I reason that when man was put in a deep sleep and the woman was made from the "flesh" (CARNAL G4559  sarkikos
From G4561; pertaining to flesh,) the mind of man was prepared for the next purpose in the plan of the Lord God. The mind(heart) is nothing more than the channel which is used

eve is the MIND bro= soul as the LORD is the soul of theFATHER hence if youve seen me you seen the FATHER FOR WE ARE ONE--so is Eve the soul of adam HIS MIND as they to are ONE
To be carnal minded is Death Right? so are saying the second Adam breathed he was DEAD even before Eve Shown as His mind Sinned? or is what we read for our edification showing us How the The mind is decieved By the serpent-  one has to Absorb the thought before the action of birthing it--- maybe thats why Paul; mentions bringing every thought into cpativity---
which obviously didnt happen with Adam hence the error of discernment birthing the nature of the carnal mind--= satan the judge the accuser one who stands in opposition- consider Peter who Christ NAMED= nature satan as he too birthed The Judge By His error of Discerment-- sems thats How we Learn- so Christ Rebuked HIM if stan was Pteter then it was Peter the Lord rebuked--

But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

[micah7:9]

 :sigh:

[Taffy]

:sigh:

your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro

[micah7:9]

:sigh:

your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro

What i said was when man in gen. 2:7 recieved the breath of life and became a living soul, the mind he had when he became alive was carnal..it was of the flesh. Yes to be caranlly minded is death, do you not believe that the Lord got did not have within His plan and purpose the out come of the charge the Lord God gave to man that if he ate of the tree in the midst of the garden man would die?
Where did you get that I said something about the second Adam? And I dont see your inturpetation of eve/woman is the mind of man.

[Taffy]

:sigh:

your saying the carnal Mind was Birthed the secong Adam become a Living soul-- the scriptures state to be carnal Minded is Death--- but for death to occur sin needed to take Place--- shown By eve to be the Mind of Adam----you got the Cart before the Horse bro

What i said was when man in gen. 2:7 recieved the breath of life and became a living soul, the mind he had when he became alive was carnal..it was of the flesh. Yes to be caranlly minded is death, do you not believe that the Lord got did not have within His plan and purpose the out come of the charge the Lord God gave to man that if he ate of the tree in the midst of the garden man would die?
Where did you get that I said something about the second Adam? And I dont see your inturpetation of eve/woman is the mind of man.

yes Indeed Micah HE established the End before the Beginning-- even so your seeing a Literal Being with a Literal carnal Brain made of Blood veins etc--- where The spiritual relates to be carnal minded is Death and for DEATH to occur sin had to take Place which certainly didnt happen the second the LORD Breathed into HIM-- again you have the Cart before the Horse-- the simplistics is the example shown by the LORD with PETER-- which you just passed by without a whisper-- simples i what Im seeing bro

[Taffy]

What i said was when man in gen. 2:7
so where did you find the lord Breathing into this ADAM-- seems the LORD forgot too as theres No mention  JUST MAYBE Probably because this ADAM is CHRIST HIMSELF who is BOTH MALE AND FEMALE bro-- and for sure wouldnt need the breath of LIFE to breathe would HE? :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Hey Nathan, do you believe in actual resurrections?  Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)?  A literal 1000 year period?  What happens after you die?  Will we have a physical glorified body, existing on earth, in (and out) of space and time?

I may be thinking carnally by asking these questions :laughing7: but you definitely present a much different picture than what I've grown up with.  I'm just trying to flesh out all the details in my mind :grin:  In all seriousness I'd like to have a better idea where you're coming from. 

You definitely speak a foreign language, I'd just like to see how those things translate.

This is another one that I see where the church put the emphasis in the wrong places . . . it's an upper room experience . . ."in' that "ascended place" you are given a new name because you are given new eyes through which you no longer are in a fallen state looking up, but you are now in a resurrected state looking down . . .it changes how you talk because it changes how you see.  I'm losing track of where I've read what . . .but I think Taf posted a passage about what eternal life is . . .it's "knowing" God . . .not religion, but relationship . .and not platonic, but intimate.  I appreciate your interest.  And I don't mind at all sharing what I see.

To be honest, I really don't linger on this for this long once I've stated my piece and others have shared their differences, but there's a growing fire that's spreading . . .this thing that we say and you struggle with . . .it create birth-pangs in your minds . . .truth isn't learned, it's birthed.   To birth you need to be impregnated, to be impregnated, you need to press in to his intimacies . . .this is that.

I don't mind telling you, I've been sicker than a dog these last few days . . .got the chills I can't seem to shake . . .but this subject . . .it seems to be the ointment that soothes whatever it is that's afflicting me . . .get's me all charged up!!  Maybe I should rephrase that . . .not the subject but the releasing of that river of life that we hear preached about so much.  We don't let that river go through our filtering system . . .rivers come from your bellies, the core of your identity in him, not through your eyes, mouth or head.

This stupid glitch is driving me nuts, I'm gonna have to make several posts that will add up to one overall.

[Taffy]

.it seems to be the ointment that soothes whatever it is that's afflicting me

:icon_flower:

[Nathan]

do you believe in actual resurrections?
I believe all things are possible . . .and I mean that . . .I don't mean that even the outlandish things "could" be possible . . .I beleive ALL things ARE possible.  I believe in resurrection in every dimension.  My wife's Father passed a couple weeks ago and as we cried around his bed and watched the monitors show the inevidible, not one of us doubted for a minute that at any second, God would raise her Dad up out of that death bed.  We all believe in resurrection power on every level, not just spiritual, but on every level. 

The things Taf and I have been relaying here is not do say we claim the natural things never happened . . .by all means no.  There really was an Adam, there really was an Eve . . .God really did breathe into Adam the spirit of life which his flesh then began to manifest a living soul . . .the thing is, everything we do here and now is all under the curse . . .sin is not the curse, it's the evidence that the curse is still in effect in this world.  The curse is . . .spiritual alignment of man.  I'm really sorry so many here do struggle with patterns and types and shadows and colors and numbers and elements . . .but all those things are actually God's alphabet that he uses to communicate with.  By the way, for me, a mountain is depicting the government of God . . .whenever God set out to "establish" some unique thing of his nature, it began on a mountain . . and I think the line of thought discussed earlier by others was along the same lines as well.  But it all ties back to Love . . .God . . .is . . .love . . .everything flows from that.

When Adam not only ate the fruit . . .oh, and remember, nothing happened when Eve ate it . . .only when Adam ate did they then "see" the knowledge of God??? No . . .all they saw was "their" nakedness.  That's a huge red flag right there already.  Knowlege unveils nothing spiritual.  It only reveals to others that we're naked . . .we rely on knowledge, it's kinda tough to be dressed in rightness is it not?

But the key here in all of this is . . .When Adam RECEIVED FROM EVE the fruit . . .he was not to be fed by his mind as again, Eve represents my soul . . .

[Nathan]

Adam through the order of life completely out of alignment when he let his Eve . . .that which he was instructed to subdue, he submitted to and at that very second, that which he ate became the dominant force and our world began.  Not the earth, the natural realm's dominance over spiritual . . .everything I see with my eyes is through natural lenses.  Only in faith now, can we see anything spiritual.  But when Noah's ark landed on Mt. (another mountain, or should I say mountain range . .) Ararat . . .places like this is where definitions light up the night.  It literally means . . .the curse is reversed . . .that's obviously a picture of the cross . . .and like the tabernacle, the grand-daddy of type and shadows, the ark also had three distinct layers . . or dimensions . . .as did not just the ark, but the contents of the ark . .manna . . .law of stone . . .and budding life of the spirit.  Which is why it was Moses and Elijah that was with Jesus on the mount of transfiguration . . .God was restoring the intimacy, the most secret things of his nature that the nation had lost . . .oh, and "that" was revealed on another mount as well . . .

The thing that was lost and now is found is our identity . . .we're not predominantly natural beings first and "then" unified spirits later . . .Spirit rules flesh . .that's what it always was.  Remember the passage where women are supposed to be quiet in church?  Yeah, of course that HAD literal implications, but when we read this book OF LIFE . . .LIFE is what should flow out, not rules and laws that brings us back into bondage all over again.  I can also tell you right now, as humbly as I possibly can, the things flowing out right here and now are words of spirit and life, not doctrine, laws or religion that I obtained through natural reasoning . . .perhaps there are times when Taf and I may not present it as sweetly as what it really is, all I can ask is that you find grace in my rudenesses.   :winkgrin:

Oh . . .and another thing . . .the stuff being said is not for the mind's consumption . . it'll only regurgitate what it can't comprehend.  I don't want to argue with people's minds . . .I have enough issues with my own . . .I just want to share what I see and let it go from there.

[Taffy]

When Adam RECEIVED FROM EVE the fruit . . .he was not to be fed by his mind as again, Eve represents my soul . . .

yo- Man is The spirit ,the head, in type being Christ - the woman is the soul who is Subject to the Spirit  as Christ is the HEAD of the Church and his BRIDE , as is the  woman ithe Body :icon_flower: as Paul mentions a Mystery :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

Amen to that Taf.

So yeah, I believe in resurrection . . .in fact I think "that" should be "THE" identity of every follower of Christ . . .not about death so much but about the resurrection death enables us to experience.

Or in a specific 2nd advent in time (not necessarily a physical return, but a return in us)?
I believe that in the end, this realm will return back to it's original order . . .UNDER the Spirit realm.  As dominant as the natural realm is now, I believe the spirit realm will become "that" vivid to us.  And as hidden as the spirit is to us now . . ."that" will be where the physical realm returns . . God is a god of restoration . . .including realms.  I think this is what the falling away of the heavens is referring to, but that's just me.

A literal 1000 year period?
No.  I believe like everything else this is depicting a position in the Tabernacle . . .keep in mind . . .the tabernacle of Moses was built as a TYPE AND SHADOW . . .it was patterned after Christ who is the substance from which the shadow is cast.  And as we all know, the book of Revelation is a revelation of Jesus Christ . . .I would love people to just soak that one profound piece of truth into the very core of their being before they read one verse further in that book.  It's an unveiling of Jesus.  The tabernacle of Moses is a shadow of that truth . . .so is it any wonder that all through the revelation, you see references to the tabernacle?  And the 1000 year reign isn't any different . . .it's the dimensions of the Holy of Holies . .it's a realm of intimacy in Christ . . .we rule and reign life around us because we are "in" and married "to" our beloved King and High Priest.  But I think the moment we try to force it to fit a natural puzzle, we tarnish the purity of the truth it radiates.  It is a place of Rest . . .it is the Person of Rest . . .it is my Sabbath . . my Sabbath of Sabbaths . . .which is what "Jubilee" is all about.

One more and I have to go back to my job for a while . . .
What happens after you die?

I believe my spirit returns back to the Father who sent me in the first place, my flesh gives in to the natural force of death and decay and my soul . . .ah  . . .my soul . . .I believe that because it's a manifestation of my spirit living in a body that without spirit or body, soul doesn't manifest . . .thus, the reason for a retun to new and imporved bodies.  I'ts not a bad thing and I'm not saying you can build a doctrine on that . . .I'm just saying that's what I've seen and continue to see.  Bottome line . . .Chist is "the" beginnning of all . . .and the end in all . . .it's all good.