Myth of Gehenna

[Beloved Servant]

Trim thy wick.

[micah7:9]

Why is it that creating fear is what comes forth today from reading the Old Testament? And that same thinking carried into the New Testament; and religion, by what ever name, teaches the very same message from a God of love (1 Jo. 4:8).... a message that the world is going to greet a firestorm ending and that many are going to a place of eternal punishment...
and this eternal punishment from a God of Love. Jesus came preaching the Good News, that  news is that Jesus died for the whole world. 1Jn 2:2  and he--he is a propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world,

I figger the "trash dump"  is a stage word that religions and denominational sects to explain a thought that has just been passed down from one ordinance to another. Molech, now there is the anchor for teaching of this horrible valley. Perhaps and it is only me, but abortion seems to relate, but then it is just me. As usual Micah has commited over speak.

[jabcat]

it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.

Perhaps if 100% exclusively "connected" - as in, if one believed in absolutely no further fulfillment/application at all.  But I believe it still was very related (Jesus' earthly ministry's primary audience, including the Jewish priesthood who were about to lose their position of privilege, and the passing of the Old to the New).   :2c: 

[Molly]

As usual Micah has commited over speak.

Join the club.  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

As usual Micah has commited over speak.

Join the club.  :laughing7:

:wink2:

[Taffy]

you know- Dont you wish scripture woulld make its mind up as we say here- :icon_flower:

Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.[/b] 

Jam 1:13   Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:  


But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of"""""""""" his own lust, and enticed. """""""""


Jam 1:15   Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

wheres Stan the MAN in this Scripture-? it exclusively states when MAN is Tempted[ no mention of Stan here]HEis DRAWN AWAY of HIS OWN LUST and enticed- :dontknow: :icon_flower:

If one takes a Better look at the Serpent, you note itS  ROOT  MEANING defines it as to learn by experience; TO DILIGENTLY OBSERVE. which can mean OUR OWN power to determine or discern

Consider it thus--- theres a WET painted bench in your local park with a SIGN-- "DO NOT TOUCH "WET PAINT"-- but this little serpent pops up and has to determine for itself if this is TRUE, so the first thing you do is TOUCH IT- then BLAM--- theres wet paint all over your hand   :mblush:        --- your action has JUST birthed the JUDGE , The very serpent becomes the error of diiscernment --- the Judge or Accuser is SATAN which becomes our very nature----

Satan wanted to TAKE HOLD of Christ ,but first the serpent has to BIRTH IT\HIM-[ satan] - we Then see the actions of our LORD whos discernment[ this time NOT an error as HE JUDGED WELL] was the will of the FATHER - HENCE THE Prince of the WORLD [THE VERY NATURE OF MAN = SATAN] had No PART OF HIM


NOW CONSIDER CAIN- :sigh:

Gen 4:7   If thou doest well,[/b] shalt thou not be accepted?[/b] and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. [/color]

Satan is Stan the Man= HIS nature- :sigh:

PS SORRY ABOUT THE BOLDING--something went a miss-lol

[Taffy]

? Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents   [ye] generation of vipers , how  can ye  escape  the damnation  of hell ?

consider the serpent , the error of discernment those who doeth NOT WELL?

Luk 10:19   Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions[ have LIES in their TAIL= false prophets], and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 

Consider the Viper[the snake of CUNNING

seems Paul wanted to BURN STICKS= WOOD= MEN on a FIRE, The Hand is One of AUTHORITY as we sit on HIS RIGHT HAND
Act 28:3   And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid [them] on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

Act 28:5   And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

KINDA SOUNDS LIKE

Num 21:8   And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. 


Num 21:9   And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.  :icon_flower: :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

the picture shows the BRASS serpent
the BRASS serpent NOW has been JUDGED as Brass means Judgment = The BRASS ALTER

symbolising- we BEING Baptised into HIS death [ HE who bore the Judgment due to us] shall be RAISED with HIM in LIFE---

Jhn 3:14   And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 


having been raised with HIM we become HIS FEET OF BRASS--- :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Eyes means Understanding given the Gospel of peace- the Ministers a FLAME, the Tongues of FIRERev 2:18  And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet [are] like fine brass;    :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

Had to go back on the thread and see what you were talking about.  I usually don't get to confrontational about what I see versus what someone else sees unless one of two things happen.  One, if someone chooses to single me out and question what I've shared . .I don't mind telling them I disagree, I think that can be done without condemnation or power playing.  The other would be if something happens like what you'd stated . . . you believed that events are literally going to happen in a literal place. 

Because Jesus referred to a litteral place, then are you saying that it's going to be a literal happening?  If you're saying that then you're overstepping the whole "parable" subject all together.  Nothing Jesus said was to be taken literally.  He called the Pharisees vipers, yet they didn't turn into literal snakes . . . this was something even the disciples, his own disciples often would struggle with and they hounded him when they were alone as to why did he always talk in parables.

Romans 1:20, God uses natural to reveal spiritual truth . . .doesn't mean because natural is referred to that literally things pertaining to that natural example are going to unfold.  I believe it's misleading to tell people that there is going to be a literal army that is going to literally congragate at the literal valley of hinnon . . . and that's all I was saying.  I wasn't warning everyone else to be aware of your tactics, I was just saying that applying something spiritually has much more benefit in our lives than trying to make it fit into a literal happening.

I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.

Maybe this will benefit, in fact probably will benefit those who seek the answer to certain scriptures, such as the person who started this thread. This person hates God because they do not understand the ghenna scriptures. Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing, perhaps it refers to the lake of fire, which I personally beleive in some kind of spiritual fire from God. But the ghenna scripture could also refer to the battle of armageddon and in fact from research it makes the most sense out of all the interepretations I have heard concerning ghenna. Now I realize I have not given much scripture, but this is something I hope to show, but my dilemma is whether it is worth the hassle as many here are against such an idea, at least it seems so, and I have no desire to argue here over this. But if it helps people understand this scripture better and perhaps maybe finally understand what Jesus was talking about, then I see it as a great help, even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
:2c:

[Nathan]

I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread. 

Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.

I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding.  In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about.  I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits.  The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.

Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.

I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within.  Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations.  When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that.  Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here.  Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan.  It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . .  and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.

It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere.  It was simply his carnal mind.  I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to  his biggest enemy.  It's a win/win.

[Nathan]

I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen?  Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference.  There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.

Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing
I can only speak for myself, but I've never indicated that Scripture is to be interpreted "exclusively" on a spiritual level.  In fact, I've stated many times and Taf's touched on it as well about different levels of understanding .  different dimensions . . .different realms . . .for me, natural, moral and spiritual are the main three. . . .but what I "have" stated is that we're not called to walk in the flesh but instead to walk in the spirit . . .it makes it difficult to walk in the spirit if everything we do relies on natural understanding.

even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
Now why would Jesus teach us not to worry about tomorrow if he knew all along that there is reason to worry about tomorrow??? 

[Doug]

I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen?  Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference.  There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.

The name Armageddon mentioned in Revelation 16:16 seems to be derived from Har Megiddo (Hebrew) meaning Mount of Megiddo.

Meddigo is located in the valley of Jezreel in northern Israel. It was the site of the battle of Megiddo (609 BC) fought between Egypt and the Kingdom of Judah, in which King Josiah fell. [2 Chronicles 35:22] When King Josiah died there was great mourning. The prophet Zechariah referred to it:

Zechariah 12:11
In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.

Commenting on the above verse, William Lindsay Alexander wrote:

The mourning was to be not only deep and poignant, but also universal. The prophet compares it to "the mourning of Hadad-rimmon in the valley of Megiddo" (ver. 11), that is, the mourning occasioned by what took place there. The mourning referred to is that of the nation over King Josiah, who was slain in battle with Pharaohnecho at Megiddo, and whose death was deeply and widely lamented throughout the nation (2 Kings xxiii. 29, 30; 2 Chron. xxxv. 20-24). Hadad-rinmon was a place, Jerome tells us, in the plain of Megiddo, near to Jezreel, and known in his day by the name of Maximianopolis; it has recently been identified with a place called Rummaneh, where there are the remains of a town or village at the south-western part of the plain of el-But-tauf, not far from Lejjun, the supposed site of Megiddo. The death of King Josiah was a signal calamity to the Jewish nation; with it "the last gleam of the sunset of Judah faded into night" (Pusey); and the shadow of that calamity rested on the nation for generations afterwards. For him Jeremiah wrote a lamentation. Dirges for him were preserved in the national archives, and were periodically recited by the minstrels of the nation; and thus to lament for him in dirges became an ordinance in Israel which survived the captivity (2 Chron. xxxv. 25). No lamentation in Judah equalled this for King Josiah; and so it came to be associated in the minds of the people with the highest degree of sorrow and mourning. Hence the allusion to it here; even to the height of this hitherto unequalled sorrow, should the mourning of Israel over their great sin rise.

[William Lindsay Alexander. Zechariah: his visions and warnings. 1885. pp. 263-365.]

These appear to be the main scriptures about Armageddon. The "mourning" associated with it may allude to what Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:30, "and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."  As to whether there indeed could be a connection between the Armageddon prophecy and the symbolic meaning of the valley of Hinnom or Gehenna, in the midst of the Revelation 16:13-16 passage about Armageddon we read: "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame."

This clearly has to do with judgment of the saints, and is a bit similar to the warning Jesus gave in Matthew 24:15-21, about clothes. The idea behind this is that Christ wants his Church to be clothed with truth; Paul said, "Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;" [Ephesians 6:14] Being caught naked is to be found resisting and opposing the truth. Jesus said, "Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes." Our "old clothes" sometimes ought to be abandoned. And IMO, this has very much to do with what the battle of Armageddon is about.  "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." [Ephesians 6:12]

Besides Armageddon, there are prophecies about other valleys where judgment occurs; Ezekiel tells of the judgment upon the armies of Gog and Magog, who are buried in the valley of Hamongog. "And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog." [Ezekiel 39:11] "And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in the valley of Hamongog." [Ezekiel 39:15]

Some commentators suggest this name alludes to the valley of Hinnom, as it resembles "Hinnom + Gog."

Another valley associated with judgment is the valley of Jehosaphat. God pleads with the nations there for his people. "I will gather together all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehosaphat: and I will plead with them there for my people, and for my inheritance Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations." [Joel 3:2] The inheritance of God is not limited to ethnic Jews, but includes the saints in all nations. "Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about." [Joel 3:12]

This valley is also called the valley of decision: "Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision." [Joel 3:14]

A Catholic commentary says:

It is also credible that the prophet meant to designate an ideal, indeterminate valley -- the valley of judgment, and no more -- for Josaphat signifies "Jahveh judges". This valley is, in fact, spoken of under the name of "valley of destruction" (A. V. valley of decision") in verse 14 of the same chapter. According to the context, the Divine judgment will be exercised upon the nations who afflicted Juda and Jerusalem at the time of the captivity and the return from exile.

If the names of these valleys are indeterminate, or symbolic in nature, we can connect all these prophecies as different views of the judgment of the world that begins at the church. The apostle Peter said,

1 Peter 4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Doug

The judgment of Gehenna

[thinktank]

I guess in many ways knowing that armageddon will happen, doesn't not really have much benefit, but this is being presumptious on our part.
Knowing Armageddon will happen?  Or "personally believing" it will happen . . .huge difference.  There's just no inidcation anywhere in Scripture that the prophecies pertaining to that subject suggest they're not going to happen until at least 2,000 years later . .there just isn't.

-------
TT
I mean't personally believing it will happen, because I know that you don't believe it, but I just took the stance that if for example you did believe it, then I assume based on what you have already posted here you would take the position as to say"what benefit is it spiritually to me or to others, knowing that destruction is ahead". So what I am saying is that if you did take that stance and in fact that is the position I am in, then it would be presumptious of me/us to assume it is of no spiritual benefit to others, because it may in fact enlighten people minds to finally understand what Jesus is really talking about and thus finally the ETist, will have a good explanation as to the true meaning of Jesus words, instead of their typical stance of concluding that it must be Eternal hell fire.

You said there is no scriptures but there are many. Here is one.

Job 19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

This shows that the bible uses worms to convey maggots that eat the flesh.

Isaiah 66:24
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark9
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.


Etist = eternal fire. But Isiah shows us the timings of when these events unfold, they correlate exactly to the book of revelation, where after God destroys the rebellious forces, he know says that all flesh comes to Jerusalem to give honour to God, this is yet to happen.
I believe one reason ET is so pronouced among christianity is because Christians do not read the old testament and so think that christ speaks entirely new concepts, where in fact he quoted a lot from the old testament. I hardly hear an etist ever quote from the old testament, because either they don't bother to read it, or they know it clearly points things out, such as the carcasses being made of flesh and not spirit.

Jesus spoke mainly to the jews and when he spoke concerning the worms in Mark, the only reference the people had were in the book of Isiah, where Isiah prophecied that the rebellious would end up being as carcass, if they were not carefull.


TT old
Now it might or may not be true that the ghenna scriptures are exclusively/mainly about spiritual cleansing
Nathan
I can only speak for myself, but I've never indicated that Scripture is to be interpreted "exclusively" on a spiritual level.  In fact, I've stated many times and Taf's touched on it as well about different levels of understanding .  different dimensions . . .different realms . . .for me, natural, moral and spiritual are the main three. . . .but what I "have" stated is that we're not called to walk in the flesh but instead to walk in the spirit . . .it makes it difficult to walk in the spirit if everything we do relies on natural understanding.
-----
TT
I agree that there are many dimensions, but I think possibly you agree with me that there is a main theme or message to each scripture. E.g when God warned Noah a flood is coming, that scripture is mainly for Noah and for our history, even though a christian might pick that verse up and the holy spirit speaks and tells us to avoid going to town this week, because the roads will be flooded. So I think there is a main theme to the ghenna scripture and it is either about spiritual cleansing or about physical destruction, possibly even a main theme for both, a double act of Batman and Robin.

even if it does cause concern over the future of earth.
Now why would Jesus teach us not to worry about tomorrow if he knew all along that there is reason to worry about tomorrow???

---
TT

Jesus said if they persecuted me they will persecute you also. Jesus made it clear that the Christian life is going to be suffering.
He said not to worry, because we human beings tend to worry a lot, just like Martha, but Jesus prefered if we were more like Mary to sit and listen and care for today only because tommorow has enough worries in itself.

Luke 10:41
And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things:

[Molly]

I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread. 

Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.

I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding.  In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about.  I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits.  The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.

Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.

I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within.  Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations.  When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that.  Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here.  Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan.  It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . .  and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.

It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere.  It was simply his carnal mind.  I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to  his biggest enemy.  It's a win/win.

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Why doesn't this say to be tempted by his own carnal mind?  It doesn't.  It specifically says to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus is led into the wilderness by the HS for this temptation--the last place we see Adam after he has been bested by the devil and kicked out of the garden.

Jesus will now take on Adam's nemesis--the carnal mind?  No, the devil.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The devil offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.  That means they are his to offer.  If they weren't, how would such an offer tempt the Son of God?  But, there's one catch--if thou wilt fall down and worship me.   Jesus has to worship Satan for the deal to be struck.  That would make Satan higher than God.

Can we make sense of this substituting the carnal mind?  Jesus' carnal mind tempted him with the rule of all the kingdoms of the world because it was his carnal mind's to offer?  But, the only catch was that he worship his mind?  And this would make his carnal mind higher than God?

Jesus of course turns Satan down.  He orders Satan to get away from him. He quotes scripture,

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

It's clear that Satan appeals to the carnal mind.  To be offered the position of king of the world, that's some pretty heady stuff.  But, does that mean Satan IS the carnal mind?  Sorry, I can't see it.  Certainly, the carnal mind makes us susceptible to these evil spiritual forces, but I believe the forces are real and independent of us. We see Satan entering into Judas when he takes the sop.  How does that make sense if it is Judas own mind?  Resist the devil and he will flee from you--meaning I will lose my [carnal] mind?  I don't think so.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

[Taffy]

heres our little red fella again dressed up like the Great[ RED] Dragon-  :sigh:
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


Rev 12:11   And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?

or does it mean thaT Pharoah will raised from The dead Just to be cast Back Down to EARTH?AS he is the great dragon who must have been the acusser all along? :mblush:

Eze 29:3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.  

Eze 29:4   But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales mm are not SCALES PRIDEwhich is DEATH?

wow just by PURE chance we see another with a HOOK inits MOUTH

Job 41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down? 

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

so now Leviathan is seen as the SERPENT and the Dragon----- but obviously this cant be the same as the scripture below  BECAUSE the Scriptures OP  NOT to NOTE IT--- :mblush:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil-  and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

BUT leviathan is a CROCODILLE ,a DEEP sea Monster.. some say a Dinosaur--- excuse me  GUYS while I go HIT my head upon a wall---OPPS AND SORRY- YET AGAIN OFF TOPIC- GRR

[Molly]

Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself. 

SCALES ARE PRIDE right?

Eze 29:4   But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales

Ok, but in my literal way, I can deal with this lol. The Pharaohs of ancient Egypt were considered gods.  Maybe they were gods.  They ruled over Egypt unopposed for thousands of years.  This passage implies they were taking on the characteristics of, or serving,  the wrong god.  We see a lot of this back and forth rivalry between the God of the Hebrews and other gods in the OT.  They took it quite seriously.

Were the ancient Egyptian Pharaohs worshipped as gods?

Ancient Egyptian Pharaohs were the ancient kings of Egypt. Pharaohs were considered one of the more important of all the Egyptian gods. While a pharaoh was ruling, he took on the "incarnation" of the god Hours and the son of Re. Once the pharaoh died, he was identified with the god Osiris, the god of the underworld.

The ancient Egyptian Pharaohs served as mediators between their people and the gods. That is why the cultural significance of the gods relied heavily upon the beliefs of the pharaoh who was ruling. It was believed that the fate of the nation lay strictly with the pharaoh.

At one time, it was believed that only the Egyptian kings had the opportunity for eternal life. Eventually, this opportunity was opened up to all people - dependant on that person's character.
http://www.allabouthistory.org/ancient-egyptian-pharaohs-faq.htm


I don't understand how you could compare Pharaoh or his fate to the average man in the street.  I mean I really don't understand. :dontknow:

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:

how about we compare spiritual with spirtual Molly - Pharoah means Great House \a besisiged city Pharoah Being the HEAD of this GREAT house Known as EGYPT--

its this HOUSE of Bondage the isralities were realsed FROM--- what keeps MEN in Bondage sis-- :icon_flower: DEATH is BONDAGE likened to the Carnal Mind being enmity and death, its the THEIF, the murderer ,the LIAR----can we not see the symbolism within PharoaH and Egypt likened to sodom[ which nate shared some] being likened to DEATH---its such Bondage ALL men have to be released from--- this GREAT house of EGYPT is the HOUSE of MAN NOT the GREAT house of the LORD---

2Ti 2:19   Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 

2Ti 2:20   But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 

2Ti 2:21   If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, [and] prepared unto every good work



ITS a Pattern Molly which continually time and time again repeats its self---but one has to see the parable to be able to compare the SPIRITUAL with Spiritual = Parable with Parable-
ITS the Carnal MIND being the ENMITY-- the enmity which HE BROKE through HIS DEATH---

even so the scriptures contain the message ---- consider it a wheel molly--- and wheel within---and another within that--

we first see The ISralites Being released FROM bondage - = carnal mind  as they began to follow the Cloud ..then come the NT.. they themselves become the ENMITY oppossing the THE REALITY[ CHRIST] showing again the carnal mind-- for failling TO MOVE with the CLOUD-- Nate spoke a little on sodom ,which again shows the carnality of men---  hence the scripture Egypt and Sodom being likened to OLD jerusalem = the carnal minded-- you have to keep with the Flow Molly---

scripture is for the SPIRITUAL MAN sis--- hidden from the eyes of the carnal--- we all here see HELL as symbolic to SPIRITUAL judgment and being spirtual fire-- not literal as many do in the world BUT we CLAIM to be able to SEE because OTHERS dont and REMAIN in the Literal world------ WHY because they have yet to understand-- BLIND folk cant see Molly ..  just because  they cant SEE doesnt mean theres a Reality which is TRUE- aka Paul---
which repeats itself on this forum with many still stuck in the literal world sis-- No disrespect to ANYONE :icon_flower:

[Doug]

heres our little red fella again dressed up like the Great[ RED] Dragon-  :sigh:

Scripture has many types and symbols of Christ, and also of Satan.

Satan is represented by a serpent, a crocodile, a lion, a great red dragon, pharaoh, the king of Tyre, an angel of light, a beast ascending from the bottomless pit, a little horn, the prince of this world, etc. He had his seat at Pergamos, where there was a great temple of Zeus.

Jesus is represented by: Adam; Isaac, when he was offered up by Abraham; Joseph, who interpreted dreams; Jacob, who labored for 7 years for his bride; Moses, who led Israel through the wilderness; a passover lamb; a high priest; a serpent on a pole; a rock; Joshua, who led the conquest of Canaan; king David, who reigned over Israel at Jerusalem; Jonah, who was three days in the belly of the fish; Cyrus; a bridegroom; a hen gathering her chicks; a temple; bread from heaven; a shepherd; a door, etc.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


Rev 12:11   And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?

or does it mean thaT Pharoah will raised from The dead Just to be cast Back Down to EARTH?AS he is the great dragon who must have been the acusser all along? :mblush:

Eze 29:3Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I [am] against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river [is] mine own, and I have made [it] for myself.  

Eze 29:4   But I will put hooks in thy jaws, and I will cause the fish of thy rivers to stick unto thy scales, and I will bring thee up out of the midst of thy rivers, and all the fish of thy rivers shall stick unto thy scales mm are not SCALES PRIDEwhich is DEATH?

wow just by PURE chance we see another with a HOOK inits MOUTH

Job 41:1  Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord [which] thou lettest down? 

In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea.

so now Leviathan is seen as the SERPENT and the Dragon----- but obviously this cant be the same as the scripture below  BECAUSE the Scriptures OP  NOT to NOTE IT--- :mblush:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil-  and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

BUT leviathan is a CROCODILLE ,a DEEP sea Monster.. some say a Dinosaur--- excuse me  GUYS while I go HIT my head upon a wall---OPPS AND SORRY- YET AGAIN OFF TOPIC- GRR

You seem to be trying to negate one type or metaphor with another.

Doug

On the bottomless pit, and the binding of Satan

[Taffy]

Scripture has many types and symbols of Christ, and also of Satan.

well yes doug How True  :icon_flower:

You seem to be trying to negate one type or metaphor with another.

not at ALL just making a point of NOT mixing Literal with symbolism-- aka Leviathan relating to satan Pahroah etc etc etc---

which I believe is a Point which was made to you By Nate- aka- the Figurative Mountain but a Literal satan--- ya know make you mind which? tis the point iwas Making within the post Doug

[Doug]

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil- Strange isnt it everyone seems to Understand a NAME means a NATURE- but obviously we dont SEE that HERE], and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 


Rev 12:11   And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Doesnt this Sound Like Calvary?

Some scholars have suggested verse 11 is the center of a chiasmic structure in Revelation 12. The following gives the general idea.

A woman clothed with the sun [v. 1]
   B woman with child [v. 2-5]
      C dragon seeks to devour her child [v. 4b-5]
         D woman fled to the wilderness [v. 6]
            E war in heaven [v. 7]
               F Satan cast out, deceives the whole world [v. 9]
                  G the saints overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb [v. 11]
               F' rejoicing in heaven, woe in earth [v. 12]
            E' dragon persecutes the woman [v. 13]
         D' woman fled to the wilderness [v. 14]
      C' flood threatens woman, and the earth swallows up the serpent's flood [v. 15-16]
   B' woman's seed [v. 17]
A' saints keep the commandments [v. 17]

See:
Is Revelation 12 a chiasmus?
On the chiastic structure of Revelation

John describes the casting down of Satan, sandwiched between the woman's flight to the wilderness in verse 6, and another flight to the wilderness by the same woman in verse 14.

The wilderness experience for the church alludes to the period that the Israelites sojourned in the wilderness before they entered the promised land. Their experience, Paul said, was for our examples. [1 Corinthians 10:1-11]

The entire generation that came out of Egypt, who were over 20 years of age, perished in the wilderness, and did not enter the promised land, except for Joshua and Caleb.
   
Caleb received an inheritance, because he was one of the two spies who had given a faithful report. The account of Caleb receiving his inheritance is in Joshua 14:6-13.

Like the 40 years in the wilderness, the wilderness for the church is a period of trial, a judgment, in which the faithful are tested, and tried, as Jesus was.

The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways:
   1. Both are part of the same vision
   2. They involve same woman
   3. They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half"
   4. The woman is nourished both times
   5. It is the same wilderness
   6. Her place is prepared by God

These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways:
   1. The first account occurs before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs after the war, and the victory of the saints.
   2. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is from ground level, while the second time, it is from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. I suggest this represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint.

The two descriptions of the woman's flights to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, to which the woman is restricted when she lacks the understanding represented by the two wings of an eagle, that she possesses in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7.

The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted.

The 1st flight to the wilderness

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13]

In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah.

The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2]

People follow other men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2]

In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13]

In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, in a spiritual sense, and houses rifled, (they are robbed of spiritual things) and women ravished; a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3.

In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10]

The 2nd flight to the wilderness

In her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man."

Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1]

In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The flood includes flawed interpretations of Gehenna, that say it is a place of inending infornal torment, whereas Gehenna is a valley on the south side of Jerusalem, and to be cast into it represents being accounted unfit for the kingdom of Christ and the holy city, represented by Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the city of the great King."

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11]

Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11]

Fire falls on those who "know not God."

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12]

In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17]

Doug

[Taffy]

 alas some other see SATAN being the carnal mind being likened to the acusser of the BRETHREN

SO WHOS THE THE ACUSSER---

Jhn 5:45   Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust. 
Jhn 5:46   For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 

Jhn 5:47   But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? 

Stan is the acusser.. one who stands in Opposition-- the JUDGE------   Those who Oppose the TRUTH  lay in opposition---therefore are LIARS of the TRUTH, Menstealers , DEATH makers, theives[ OF TRUE LIFE] murderers---  :sigh:
Thou shalt NOT STEAL- thou shalt not bear false witness[[ thou shalt not kill[ murder]--mmm

SO IN THIS CASE WE see MOSES[ the Body = LAW] being the one in Opposition---  ya keep with the Flow bro-- unlike men folk who Just Like to PIN the Fella DOWN to fit there understanding-- tis Not the case---

[Nathan]

I see things have been really busy since I was last on this thread. 

Outside of Taf, noone has really come up wtih an answer directly to that question about whether it was satan led Jesus or he took Jesus . . .if one is to look at it literally, one would have no other choice but to conclude that either Jesus submitted himself to the enemy, or that the enemy had greater power so that he would "take" Jesus, either way, it's easy to see you struggle trying to come up with a conclusion.

I beleive much of the reason is because many are working with preconceived notions of who they accept as satan rather than truly laying down what we think and let God fill the voids in our understanding.  In this case, the only way this one fits is to lay aside the idea that satan is a spiritual nemisis of God and see that it was the carnali man in Jesus that we're talking about.  I keep repeating myself on many issues with this but it's because it's the only one that fits.  The only way Jesus could be tempted by anything would be if there were some part of him that had weaknesses enough to where a tangible thing could affect him.

Ever wonder in other passages that speak about the fact that no man could literally see God without immediately being destroyed because of the unadulterated holiness and purity of God's very being, and yet, we believe satan can come and go as he pleases because that's what our Bibles tell us . . .unless our interpretations of things are already adulterated in the first place.

I beleive Jesus temptation was not happening from the outside, but from within.  Because he was all flesh, his flesh was no different than our flesh, he had temptations just as we have temptations.  When he asked for the cup to pass, that was his flesh requesting that.  Religion has inflated everything . . .satan is no longer man's carnal thoughts, religion has turned it into this great Hollywood monster that is like watching the Roadrunner cartoon where the cyote is always inventing ways to catch the road runner but none of them ever work . . .satan is always trying to trip up God's plan but nothing ever works . . .but that's not the message being displayed here.  Jesus was all flesh and all God . . .before he went into the ministry, he had to overcome that part of him so that he could fulfill the overall plan.  It was his mind that took him to high places . . .it was his mind that accused him, tempted him, tried to get him to give in to it . . .but if we have any understanding of the nature of Jesus at all, we'd see that he didn't depend on natural food to sustain him, he didn't rely on the masses of people to pet his ego . . .  and he didn't go public just to display his powers . . .He knew who he was and nothing his mind could inflate would shake him from knowing that.

It takes a paradigm shift to actually accept the idea that it wasn't the king of evil that led Jesus anywhere.  It was simply his carnal mind.  I can see that without it making my skin crawl or having to admit that the Bible states Jesus gave in to  his biggest enemy.  It's a win/win.

1Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Why doesn't this say to be tempted by his own carnal mind?  It doesn't.  It specifically says to be tempted of the devil.

Jesus is led into the wilderness by the HS for this temptation--the last place we see Adam after he has been bested by the devil and kicked out of the garden.

Jesus will now take on Adam's nemesis--the carnal mind?  No, the devil.

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

The devil offers Jesus all the kingdoms of the world.  That means they are his to offer.  If they weren't, how would such an offer tempt the Son of God?  But, there's one catch--if thou wilt fall down and worship me.   Jesus has to worship Satan for the deal to be struck.  That would make Satan higher than God.

Can we make sense of this substituting the carnal mind?  Jesus' carnal mind tempted him with the rule of all the kingdoms of the world because it was his carnal mind's to offer?  But, the only catch was that he worship his mind?  And this would make his carnal mind higher than God?

Jesus of course turns Satan down.  He orders Satan to get away from him. He quotes scripture,

Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

It's clear that Satan appeals to the carnal mind.  To be offered the position of king of the world, that's some pretty heady stuff.  But, does that mean Satan IS the carnal mind?  Sorry, I can't see it.  Certainly, the carnal mind makes us susceptible to these evil spiritual forces, but I believe the forces are real and independent of us. We see Satan entering into Judas when he takes the sop.  How does that make sense if it is Judas own mind?  Resist the devil and he will flee from you--meaning I will lose my [carnal] mind?  I don't think so.

John 14:30
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

If my carnal mind wasn't always trying to rise up against me, there would be no need to have a renewed mind in the first place.  th eweapons of our warfare are mighty through prayer to the pulling down of strong-holds . . .strongholds of what???

3For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:

4(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

5Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

6And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

CASTING DOWN IMAGINATIONS . . .this warfare is not dealing with things happenin on the outside of us, but things happening on the inside.

You ask why doesn't Scripture just tell you that it's your mind?  Surely you're aware "he that hath an ear, let him hear . . ." implies that everything has a spiritual implication tied to it.  And besides, it "does" imply the mind, it calls it the adversary . . .which is wha tour mind is according to Romans.

You can't come to accept that Jesus was led by the devil, but yet you won't accept the rope thrown to you that explains why it went down the way it did.  And yeah, Adam was tempted the same way . . .tree of knowledge is the gateway for the natural realm and the serpent . .carnality . . .rules this realm, that's why God told him not to eat of it.  God knew that when he did, it would rule over him.

It really does all fall into it's own place.

[Taffy]

And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without,"""""" all [these] things are done in parables:""""

you Know Nate ALL things spoken in Parables , even when in Private discourse with the disciples they still struggled to understand--- HE SIMPLY speaks on another LEVEL, but folk constantly Drag it down to the Dust , the earthly literal level..gosh no wonder theres no agreement-- it all then comes down to the INTELLECT of MAN-- who love there interpretation-- man that Gives me One headache---- raise into the spirutal and YOU WILL AGREE----- :HeartThrob:

Hands are Fleshy hands which get thrown into a Literal Fire ... bodies get cremated into a Literal Fire---  Heaven is a Literal Place up in the SKY HELL is literally afIRE ET- aNGELS ARE cELESTRAIL always--- abviously the DEAD cant speak cos they are DEAD-  and then come revelation WOW we can have ball games--- Wars Bombs annialation... slaughter red horses and REAL beasts RISING from the sea looking like Crocodilles---- all those heads and Crowns and Vials--- Literal Kingdoms CITY floating to earth--- Literal ANTI CHRISTS siiting ona Throne in Jerusalem... until the LORD samshes HIM to [ppeices cos What is the use of POWER if you cant USE IT right-- folk just love a Good old Fight---- ...  oh then this Red Guy called satan Gets his comeuppance for all the trouble hes caused-- you Know bro in a discussion witha World wide preacher the other day discussing this Fella--- eBless Him he mentioned that Satan committed sucide  and then come back to spoil the plan of GOD--ROFL---- man I thought I heard it all!!!!  EVEN IN OUR CIRCLES Satan is an enty but will be cleansed like all men in the Lake---- whata Laugh----  what enters the Fire being NOT pure perishes... such is the carnal mind the Murderer the liar and the thief--- tyheres NO return.. as Man we are told l will suffer LOSS... so how on this EARTH can satan be saved-- 

[Nathan]

Hang in there Taf, it's all good.  God's grace abounds in all of us even when we can't seem to agree with each other's principles, just remember . . .embrace the grace bro, embrace the grace.

[Taffy]

Hang in there Taf, it's all good.  God's grace abounds in all of us even when we can't seem to agree with each other's principles, just remember . . .embrace the grace bro, embrace the grace.

THATS THE BIG PICTURE NATE-----A BIG AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11 :icon_flower:

[micah7:9]

Dont know what all this stuff about satan etc. and carnal mind has to do with the topic, but the carnal mind is not the accuser(satan) the carnal mind is the channel.