Myth of Gehenna

[Doug]

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Or maybe the APPOINTED time for Others who through tribulation[ pressing in] is YET to COME---- you know like Paul who too came to SEE the TRUTH through Trial and Tribulation--- :icon_flower:

Yes, it could be referring to a time yet to come, maybe after Christ returns, and the judgment begins. [Revelation 11:18]

The contrast between the messages to Philadelphia and Laodicea seem to correspond to the contrast between Jerusalem and Gehenna.

Of Laodicea he says, "I will spue thee out of my mouth," which fits the metaphor of being cast into Gehenna.

Of Philadelphia he says, "and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God."

Doug

The Bishop, the Ghost, and Gehenna

[thinktank]

But your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.

:icon_flower:

The Literal is there for all to read TT--

TT
From posts read here, and gereral doctrine/ideas in Christian dom, I honestly don't see that being the case at all.

Taffy
and For sure no ones throwing the baby out the water---if you google the web for the acronym PARDES you may find theres more then one level the scriptures can be understood :icon_flower:

TT
I am not against acronym pardes, only when it attempts to rise up and demand itself as superior to supernatural faith.
The danger of acronym parades is that it can side track the true message. I personally love acronym pardes, particualrly as it relates to how the old testament mirrors the new testament, but I don't like it when it tries to set itself up as being the superior compared to faith and revelation of the old testament message or the new testament message.

[Taffy]

I am not against acronym pardes, only when it attempts to rise up and demand itself as superior to supernatural faith.The danger of acronym parades is that it can side track the true message. I personally love acronym pardes, particualrly as it relates to how the old testament mirrors the new testament, but I don't like it when it tries to set itself up as being the superior compared to faith and revelation of the old testament message or the new testament message.

TT
:icon_flower:
No ones RISING it up against faith bro-- Maybe consider the scrips as an Onion , just different layers BUT the SAME ONION- the more layers you pull off the MORE the eyes are FILLED with WATER- :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I agree with Taf, but I don't mind pushing back just a little on this . . .I think it's really important that we understand the significance of spiritual observation as opposed to natural reasoning.

Trying to follow the jargon here, but if I'm understanding you right . . .then let me say that it's "through" faith that the revelation of these acronym parades   (you mean "paradies"?) are given shape and continuity.  They're called parables . . . Jesus used them ALL THE TIME.  Apparently it IS a "superior" language as you say.  Otherwise we'd not be told to walk in the spirit (higher) and not in the flesh (not higher).  Or things like "he that hath an ear . .let him hear . . ."  If we're being instructed to listen with spiritual ears and not natural ears, is that not an indication that more is being said than what is being literally said???

[Beloved Servant]

Jesus brought Peter, James and John up a high mountain to witness the transfiguration because it simply can not be observed from ground level.

[Nathan]

Amen to that . . .and . . .only three of the twelve were "led UP" to SEE his true identity.  And even after they saw, they were specifically instructed NOT to tell ANYONE else of what they heard and saw.  Only a fraction of the church sees beyond the natural vision of things.  In this realm . . .thank God, ONLY in this realm. 

That's the other thing I noticed when I was passing through the Lot issue . . .when they first approached Abraham, he was also setting at an entrance . . .he was sitting at the door of his house and it literally says when he LIFTED HIS EYES . . .he SAW . . .and then the same thing happened with Lot . . .He LOOKED UP and SAW . . .before vision comes, the call to ascend comes ahead of it.

[Taffy]

was it by chance it was AFTER 6 days HE took them to the Mountain-- :icon_flower:

YA know broAnd his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

His [b]Hair is as WHITE as snow[/b], His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire

hairs- wool?

Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

does not the LORD know the NUMBER of our HAIRS upon OUR HEAD?

The hairs of HEAD being OUR iniquities?

For innumerable evils have compassed me about: mine iniquities have taken hold upon me, so that I am not able to look up; they are more than the hairs of mine head: therefore my heart faileth me. :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

I see the hairs as extensions of our heads . . .our heads represent our minds, our hair represent our "thoughts".  Pure white hair . . .Holy and pure thoughts in a wholly renewed mind . . .for us . . .God's mind doesn't need renewing . . .it never ages.

He's the 'Rock" of ages . .but he never gets old . .I mean  . . .sigh . .never mind.

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:

[thinktank]

Posted by: Nathan
« on: Today at 02:46:28 PM »


I agree with Taf, but I don't mind pushing back just a little on this . . .I think it's really important that we understand the significance of spiritual observation as opposed to natural reasoning.

Trying to follow the jargon here, but if I'm understanding you right . . .then let me say that it's "through" faith that the revelation of these acronym parades   (you mean "paradies"?) are given shape and continuity.  They're called parables . . . Jesus used them ALL THE TIME.  Apparently it IS a "superior" language as you say.  Otherwise we'd not be told to walk in the spirit (higher) and not in the flesh (not higher).  Or things like "he that hath an ear . .let him hear . . ."  If we're being instructed to listen with spiritual ears and not natural ears, is that not an indication that more is being said than what is being literally said???



TT
I understand that God requires faith and that faith allows us to see into Gods kingdom, as without faith it is impossible to please God, as the scripture says.

But I see a difference between faith and acronym pardes. Acronym pardes can be applied to anything in life, I see it being used a lot with artisitic commuinities. They discuss the symbolic meaning of paintings and each person who see's the painting has a different interpretation of the symbols, but none of this requires faith in God, but interpret based on natural reasoning as a lot of these artists are non believers.

Take for example the wise men and the astrologers of egypt. These people were spiritually wise, through their magic and sorceries, meditation, study etc and they were able to come up with some great truths and revelations from the spirit world, such as the positioning of the stars etc but much of this information is scrambled so to speak and is not so clear and accurate as a true Holy spirit revelation.

So the danger is that we might be as these artists trying to extract meaning out of scriptures that do not belong there and apply our own understanding to it, rather than let the holy spirit reveal the meaning of the scripture. Often the holy spirit uses the scripture in many different way to speak to us individually, and this often requires acronym pardes to go beyond the context of the scripture and apply it into our own personal life and experiences. But the danger is that we take our own personal revelation and apply it to the christian body as a whole, when the holy spirit often has a different message to the body as a whole.

[Nathan]

Every dimension is relevant. 
You've been very general in your generalizing . . .so . . .in what areas are you thinking that things have been portrayed as spiritual to the "church" that you don't think should have been?

[thinktank]

It was a warning in general to lookout for it. But it came from a reply to the intial post concerning ghenna, because I posted that the ghenna was literal fire and not an eternal fire, I believed this was a great post to help the understanding to the person who posted  this topic, but yet few replied that, such an interpretation was based on natural reasoning and the true interpretation is using pardes techniques to find the spiritual symbolic meaning.

In my view the literal destruction was being spiritual, based upon the many scriptures that talk about it. I find no problem if people want to go deeper and perhaps compare ghenna to the lake of fire and then link it to the scripture which say's God is a consuming fire, but to reply that ghenna being literal place of fire is based on natural reasoning is being presumptious, especially as the day of judgment ghenna fire does not negate or cancel UR, but could bring greater understanding as to what this ghenna scripture actually means in context of UR and could be of great help to those such as the person who posted this topic, who does not understand ghenna.

If that is your opinion concerning ghenna fair enough, but I am simply pointing it out, that just because something seems natural, doesn't mean it is based on carnal thinking. So I attempted to convey that the scriptures in Revelation is based upon supernatural, but yet now I get the reply that the natural mirrors the spiritual. It just seems to be that whatever angle I take, the reply is that is is based upon carnal reasoning. If I say it is a literal fire, then the reply is "It is carnal thinking"

If I say "supernatural fire" then reply is
"natural mirrors the spiritual so cannot be supernatural because, now the sky rolling together it does not make sense to my natural mind, therefore it is not truth, but yet if someone else posts something that sounds natural to my mind then it is based on carnal reasoning".

So I wrote what I wrote to be carefull of dissmising true revelation just because we don't like it.

[Doug]

Jesus brought Peter, James and John up a high mountain to witness the transfiguration because it simply can not be observed from ground level.

It is probably significant that they were on a high mountain to observe the vision. In scripture, mountains are often used figuratively, to indicate a higher level of expression; this is evident in the blessing Jacob gave to Joseph, in Genesis, where he says, "The blessings of thy father have prevailed above the blessings of my progenitors unto the utmost bound of the everlasting hills." [Genesis 49:26]

The idea alluded to here is that these blessings are high, lofty, or spiritual in nature, suggested by the superior height of mountains or hills, and also durable, or eternal, which is suggested by the word "everlasting."

In Ezekiel, there is another example: "In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me upon a very high mountain, by which was as the frame of a city on the south." [Ezekiel 40:2] Here, he tells us it is a "vision," and so would not require any literal high mountain. It suggests the vision that follows has a figurative and spiritual meaning, and is not about a literal temple. Although, some misinterpret it as a literal one.

john gives another example; the high mountain, from which he viewed the heavenly Jerusalem, indicates that the prophecy has a high, or spiritual meaning; the city is symbolic of the church.

Revelation 21:10
And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

Matthew 4:8, where the devil takes Jesus up to a high mountain is similar; the high mountain is figurative, not literal.

Doug

The judgment of Gehenna

[Nathan]

Had to go back on the thread and see what you were talking about.  I usually don't get to confrontational about what I see versus what someone else sees unless one of two things happen.  One, if someone chooses to single me out and question what I've shared . .I don't mind telling them I disagree, I think that can be done without condemnation or power playing.  The other would be if something happens like what you'd stated . . . you believed that events are literally going to happen in a literal place. 

Because Jesus referred to a litteral place, then are you saying that it's going to be a literal happening?  If you're saying that then you're overstepping the whole "parable" subject all together.  Nothing Jesus said was to be taken literally.  He called the Pharisees vipers, yet they didn't turn into literal snakes . . . this was something even the disciples, his own disciples often would struggle with and they hounded him when they were alone as to why did he always talk in parables.

Romans 1:20, God uses natural to reveal spiritual truth . . .doesn't mean because natural is referred to that literally things pertaining to that natural example are going to unfold.  I believe it's misleading to tell people that there is going to be a literal army that is going to literally congragate at the literal valley of hinnon . . . and that's all I was saying.  I wasn't warning everyone else to be aware of your tactics, I was just saying that applying something spiritually has much more benefit in our lives than trying to make it fit into a literal happening.

I already addressed the idea that if Ghenna isn't a garbage dump that it still doesn't fit an ET's theology to say that Jesus was talking about eternal hell. 

I guess the bottom line here is if you have the liberty to share your points of view and not have others put out general warnings against them, based on your own personal fears, then it should only be fair that I could have the ability to share what I see with the same expectations.  Having said that, I do realize I've probably said much about those who embrace natural over spiritual and how that can often defeat the purpose, but I didn't have anyone here in mind when writing such, it was just my opinion and I've tried to make sure that people understand that when I do put stuff out   . . "to me . . .I see such and such . . ."

It's all good . . .not upset or troubled, I think it's awesome that we have such a venue as this where we can have a mixture of all of it all and hopefully we all can find a way to not only accept, but grow from each other's fruits. 

[Nathan]

Hmmm . . .never noticed that before . . .satan led Jesus . . .something wrong with that already . . .up into a high mountain . . .wow . . .is this to say satan literally led Jesus?

You say the mountain is figurative . .what about satan?  Is he figurative as well?

[Molly]

Nathan,

Satan didn't lead Jesus.  The HS led Jesus.

[Nathan]

Luke 4:5
5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

[Nathan]

Where'd ya go?  I'm really curious as to where this one goes.

[Molly]

Luke 4:5
5And he led Him up and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

Sorry, the thought of Jesus being led by Satan made my skin crawl.  I can't argue this--but here's one example where I prefer the KGV.  It's more the idea of Jesus accompanying him, rather than being blindly led.

5And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
--Luke 4

8Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

--Mat 4

[micah7:9]

Jesus was taken....think...how could Jesus be led? Is a foolish consideration.
I truely like Ernest Mahan 1904 version
Mat 4:8 The third time, the Devil took Jesus to a very high mountain, and, showing him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour, said to him:

[Nathan]

Come on guys . . .none of this fits literally.  So satan didn't lead him . . .he "took" him???  That's even worse!  Satan is more powerful?  If he took him it means it was against his will, which then supports the ET side of things all over again in that it was God's will that none should perish . . .but he's just incapable to stop us from torturing ourselves. . .if he led him, it means Jesus submitted to him . . . and yeah Molly, that'd make anyone's skin crawl.  But trying to use natural reasoning in this one just isn't going work.

I'd tell you my side of it, but I think most of you already know what I'm gonna say.  But so far, I've yet to see life and freedom from from your understanding of it.  I've left work, but I was so curious to see what you came up with I "had" to hop on for a sec and see from home.

Tell you what, I'll throw you a bone . . .
If you can see which part of Jesus asked God to have the cup pass from him, then you should be able to see what's going on with this passage.

And Molly, just so you know I'm not ignoring your response, is it the King James you posted there?  Stating that the devil "took" Jesus up a mountain?

Remember, it's already been stated it wasn't a literal mountain . . .thing about that passage . . .what literal mountain could satan take Jesus to where you could see the entire world.

Come on guys, I hear your ice cracking . . .it's okay to say it!!!

[Beloved Servant]

The battle is within.

[micah7:9]

Jesus was taken....think...how could Jesus be led? Is a foolish consideration.
I truely like Ernest Mahan 1904 version
Mat 4:8 The third time, the Devil took Jesus to a very high mountain, and, showing him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour, said to him:

Well it is good that some can see that Jesus was not led nor was He took. There is much to Our Saviour than we read about. And Nathan I am happy for your post and wonder which part, of Jesus was asked about the cup! Excellent :bigGrin: There is so much of our Saviour that we are yet to learn.

[Beloved Servant]

The cup of humanity.

[Doug]

Earlier I posted some comments on the prophetic significance of high mountains, thinking that there is an indirect connection with the subject at hand, the significance of the valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna. In most of the examples I gave, the high mountains were connected with the gospel, and with the heavenly Jerusalem, the spiritual temple, etc. A mountain represents a high, lofty revelation of a spiritual nature; so, what is a valley?

The mountains of Israel are prominent parts of the promised land, which is symbolic, and a type or "shadow" of spiritual things promised to the saints. Promises, and covenants, and prophecies are sometimes represented by the mountains where they were given. Thus, for example, Sinai represents the Mosaic legislation, in Galatians 4:24-26.

Similarly, the Mount of Olives represents the Olivet Discourse that Jesus gave there; it gives its name to that prophecy too. And the Sermon on the Mount is another revelation connected with a mountain, though that one is unnamed. If it were not significant, why say it was given on a mountain? Whatever mountain it was, it is one of the "mountains of Israel."

These examples are enough to show that mountains represent revelations, and promises, and prophecies. Jacob compared his promised blessings to the "everlasting hills," indicating their lasting duration; that is, they are symbolic of promises of things that endure forever.

David said, "Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O LORD, thou preservest man and beast." [Psalm 36:6]

I suggest that valleys, being places where the land and rock has been removed, either by tectonics or erosion, are symbolic of missing information; things yet to be revealed. Thus, when John the Baptist heralded the ministry of Jesus, he quoted from the prophecy of Isaiah, that said every mountain will be made low, and every valley will be filled.

The teachings of Jesus and the apostles filled many "valleys." These teachings are contained in the New Testament. Missing revelations were supplied, in Paul's epistles, in the teachings of Jesus, and in Revelation, for example. Many of the Old Testament prophecies are shown to be fulfilled, as explained in the New Testament, and in some cases, they are reinterpreted. This partly fulfills the prophecy of Isaiah.

The valley of Hinnom, or Gehenna, is one of the valleys to which Isaiah's prophecy applies; its true significance will be made known. In the teachings of Jesus, Gehenna is prophetic.

Isaiah said that Jerusalem and the mountain of the Lord's house would be raised up, to the tops of the mountains. [Isaiah 2:1-3] In the New Testament that has occurred, as we see in Galatians 4:26, and in Hebrews 12:22, where Jerusalem is in heaven, higher than all the earth's mountains. But it is fulfilled in a spiritual way.

Since Jerusalem has been raised up, how can the teachings of Jesus about Gehenna be related to earthly things? They must be connected with the heavenly city, not the earthly one; it is a mistake to connect the sayings of Jesus about Gehenna with events of 70 AD.

The threat of Gehenna applies to those in the heavenly Jerusalem, that is, to the church, rather than to the world, or to those who never heard the gospel. One has to be in the holy city, to be cast out of it.

Jesus said, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man." [Luke 21:36]

Those who are not "accounted worthy" may be disappointed. Think of the parable of the 10 virgins, and the parable of the man at the wedding feast, who was not wearing the appropriate wedding garment. Jesus said there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Doug

The judgment of Gehenna