Myth of Gehenna

[Doug]

One post was refering to THE jews who were threatened by it come the NT- Im aware of its usage proir--the POINT being it has No mention of otherS then the religous of the day -

In most cases where Gehenna is mentioned, Jesus addressed his disciples. In only 2 out of 12 places was he speaking to Pharisees; these are Matthew 23:15 & 32.

WELL AMEN DOUG- as mentioned those who were to take part were the religious fraction of the DAY-  :icon_flower:

All Jews were religious.

The specific warnings about plucking out your eye, or cutting off your hand or foot, were to his disciples.

The warning about not calling your brother a "fool" applies to Christians of every age.

IMO, nothing Jesus said about Gehenna specifically applies to events of 70 AD.

How would plucking out their right eye help any Jew to escape from Roman armies in the siege?

How would cutting off their hand or their foot help any one of them escape?

IMO, Jesus was not referring to preserving their physical lives, as he said:

Luke 17:33
Whoever may seek to save his life, shall lose it; and whoever may lose it, shall preserve it.

Doug

The land promise in the New Covenant

[Taffy]

I can remember a thread about PARDES but that's about it.

Funny you mention 22. I wrote something about it yesterday: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/members_lounge/order_books_9404.msg120051.html#msg120051
Page 56-64

Taken a breif perusal but not looked at it fully---  22 is a Symbol of LIGHT.. Christ is the LIGHT of the WORLD-- the WHOLE 22 letters on the HARP reveal the LIGHT which IS HIM-- Light means to reveal , Make known etc-When one prophesies, we SPEAK HIS NAME--
Saul was comforted by David playing off the HARP-- and such evil spirits left him- :HeartThrob:

[Taffy]

The warning about not calling= to SAY= speak with the TONGUE your brother a "fool" applies to Christians of every age.

seems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR? :sigh:

Jam 5:9   Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.  

what door?what Judge? :HeartThrob:

[Doug]

what door?what Judge? :HeartThrob:

Jesus said,

John 10:9
I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Jesus is the judge.

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Doug

Hope in Gehenna?

[Taffy]

seems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR?

Jam 5:9   Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

THE LORD Is "THE DOOR"but Not this Door Doug

we condemn ourselves with our OWN words due to  Judgment upon OTHERS- HENCE JUDGE NOT OTHERS lest YOU be judged- :mshock:

Psalm 141:3 Set a WATCH, O LORD, before my mouth; keep THE DOOR of my lips.
Mat 12:36   But I say unto you, That every idle[ BARREN] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 


Mat 12:37   For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.  


Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at THE DOOR. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.= such is that Little member that NO MAN can RULE-

wE eat OUR OWN words,by sin ENTERING IN.. or that which defiles a Man is what comes out

so is the tongue among our members, that it DEFILETH THE WHOLE BODY,  and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire OF HELL. -
bUT HE WHO IS"PERFECT

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man   and able also to bridle the whole body.

The Unprofitable Tongue [ Carnal] will consume in the Mouth- even so Judgment is VERY much Now concerning How we JUDGE others-- as the LORD recompnces in the EARTH as HE did with the wicked servant--- we do INDEEDpay NOW for the SIN of our LIPS---Blessings :icon_flower:

[Doug]

seems One JUDGES with the Mouth\Tongue , but the JUDGE Standeth at THE DOOR?

Jam 5:9   Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

THE LORD Is "THE DOOR"but Not this Door Doug

we condemn ourselves with our OWN words due to  Judgment upon OTHERS- HENCE JUDGE NOT OTHERS lest YOU be judged- :mshock:

Psalm 141:3 Set a WATCH, O LORD, before my mouth; keep THE DOOR of my lips.
Mat 12:36   But I say unto you, That every idle[ BARREN] word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 


Mat 12:37   For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.  


Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at THE DOOR. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.= such is that Little member that NO MAN can RULE-

wE eat OUR OWN words,by sin ENTERING IN.. or that which defiles a Man is what comes out

so is the tongue among our members, that it DEFILETH THE WHOLE BODY,  and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire OF HELL. -
bUT HE WHO IS"PERFECT

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend NOT ~IN WORD~, """the same is a perfect man   and able also to bridle the whole body.

The Unprofitable Tongue [ Carnal] will consume in the Mouth- even so Judgment is VERY much Now concerning How we JUDGE others-- as the LORD recompnces in the EARTH as HE did with the wicked servant--- we do INDEEDpay NOW for the SIN of our LIPS---Blessings :icon_flower:

Another "door" is mentioned in Revelation.

Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
   
There are 12 gates in the wall of the holy city, each gate a single pearl. [Revelation 21:21]

Being cast into Gehenna, the valley located outside Jerusalem, is not meant to be taken literally. Jesus warned the Pharisees about "the judgment of Gehenna." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom. Jesus called Jerusalem "the city of the great King." [Matthew 5:35] So the threat of Gehenna applies to the saints, those in the church, and to those who hear the gospel preached, (like those Pharisees) rather than to the world, and those who have not been called by God. One has to be in the holy city, to be cast out of it.

Doug

Gehenna applies to the church, not the world

[Taffy]

." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.

ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:

[jabcat]

." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.

ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:

Amen.

[thinktank]

But when you start going down that road of being literal about all of it, then you have to explain "how" some of those things depicted that litterally can not happen, happen.  Things like the sky rolling back like a scroll, all the stars falling to earth . . .no way that would ever happen and still have people survive . . .there are stars out there a gazillion times bigger than the earth . . .no way the earth would pull them in and still have any being live through it.  Just too much impossiblitiies to embrace the natural events happening.

Some people interpret e.g the star wormwood as a nuclear blast setting up radiation that poisons the water, but it could also be purely supernatural events. The natural mind cannot comprehend the supernatural, no one believed that Jesus rose from the dead and they even made reports that someone stole his body.

We get into trouble when we try to interpret supernatural concepts with our natural minds.

the Unseen is MADE known by those things MADE---Rom 1-21 :icon_flower:

TT
I am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me.

[Aleax]

I guess we got a bit  :offtopic: ... anyway, Nightflight, if you're reading this, did you get my PM?

[Taffy]

I am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me

Not at all- Just sharing one perception TT - tis ALL-- your at Liberty to share what you THINK-- so please let me be at Lberty to share likewise--- :icon_flower:

Blessings :icon_flower:

[Taffy]

I guess we got a bit  :offtopic: ... anyway, Nightflight, if you're reading this, did you get my PM?

Indeed it has somewhat Aleax- like many other threads which tend to go a Little of base-- Over the Yrs we have tried  to give some leeway , as Long as it doesnt venture into a Food fight betwen two individuals who end up consuming the thread :icon_flower:

Bl;essings :icon_flower:

[Aleax]

It's perfectly okay. I'm not angry at all, even if the off topic emoticon seems to be.  :laughing7:

[Taffy]

It's perfectly okay. I'm not angry at all, even if the off topic emoticon seems to be.  :laughing7:

:icon_flower: :HeartThrob:

[WhiteWings]

Personally I never have seen a single quote of a trash dump by someone who lived near Jesus time.
Neither have I read anything about archelogical finds.

Same topic in this thread: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/arguments_against_universal_salvation/gehenna_not_trash_dump_8555.msg102617.html#msg102617

[Aleax]

^ I'd have to agree with him to an extent.

That said, I haven't really seen any convincing evidence that (an endless) Hell was a part of teh Old Covenant, either.

Let's try to use some logic here. If (an endless) Hell wasn't a part of the Old Covenant, but was first introduced by Jesus, how could one EVER call the New Covenant "the better Covenant" ?

[WhiteWings]

Not ET is not in OT. But in the long run it's best to only accept what is proven. Gehenna may sound nice from an UR p.o.v.
The question is: Are you looking for something that sounds nice or something that's true?
We must try not fall in the same fantasy trap as the ETs did.
If you not already did so read the thread I linked above.
It has a few biths of good info.

Bed time for me. :lazy:

[redhotmagma]

Aleax, along that same lines, if ET is true then the Old Covenant is worse than nothing because "sin is not counted where there is no law".  I used to get mad when I would read this portion of Romans.  "God why did you even give the law then and make everyone guilty".

[thinktank]

I am weary of you using that scripture here in this post against me. I feel that scripture could have been used multiple times in the past, to balance and give greater understanding too individuals here, but yet wasn't. I perceive you are simply using this scripture in this instance to argue against me

Not at all- Just sharing one perception TT - tis ALL-- your at Liberty to share what you THINK-- so please let me be at Lberty to share likewise--- :icon_flower:

Blessings :icon_flower:

But your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.

[Taffy]

But your history shows, you'r more into the symbolic and I historically tend to look at a super-natural perspective. So when I post about being spiritual, you post about how the natural mirrors the spiritual. I just found it strange coming from you, so I was wary, because you don't normally look at things from a super natural perspective, so I am wary that you choose to look at the natural point of view in this instance, in order to combat my view, while in other cases during these discussions over the months with members here, you don't regard or do not desire to look at the natural perspective, which I feel needed to be looked at in the natural persepctive, such as the story of Genesis, or Christs bodilly resurection, which I felt needed that particular scripture to balance and give understanding to some members here who tend to look at mainly symbolic personal truths, that works for them, rather than look at what the scripture is saying to the body as a whole.

:icon_flower:

The Literal is there for all to read TT--and For sure no ones throwing the baby out the water---if you google the web for the acronym PARDES you may find theres more then one level the scriptures can be understood :icon_flower:

[Doug]

." I suggest it represents being cast out of the holy city, as unfit for the kingdom.

ALL that is Carnal will be cast OUT, as Flesh has No partaking with that which IS SPIRIT- as ALL that is LEFT will be HIS NATURE--- :icon_flower:

Jerusalem and Gehenna are two key geographical locations in the promised land, crucial for understanding the Gospel, and the mysteries of present and future judgment.

The valley of Hinnom is located outside the walls of Jerusalem, which Jesus called "the city of the great king." [Matthew 5:35] It represents the condition of those who are cast out of the city, being accounted unworthy to enter his kingdom. Jesus encouraged disciples of all ages to seek to enter the kingdom, which Jerusalem represents. His warnings about Gehenna apply especially to Christians, who have come to "Mount Zion, and the Heavenly Jerusalem." [Hebrews 12:22] Gehenna is not a threat for people who were never called, and who never heard the gospel, because one has to be in the holy city, to be cast out of it.

Jesus connected Gehenna with the right eye, the right hand, and foot. James connected Gehenna with the tongue. In Revelation 20:4, those who are beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, reign with Christ. Paul said, "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service." [Romans 12:1]

In Jesus' teaching about Gehenna, he compared losing body parts to salvation, and preserving one's soul. [Matthew 5:29-30; 18:8-9] The eye was given special notice.

There are several scriptures that refer to the eye in the New Testament. In some, the eye is related to understanding the gospel.

An "evil eye" is something that Jesus said defiles a man. [Mark 7:22]

Peter spoke of men whose eyes were "full of adultery." [2 Peter 2:14]

Jesus spoke of the man whose eye contains a "beam," yet he attempts to remove a "mote" from the eye of a brother. [Luke 6:41-42]

Jesus referred to the eye as the "light" of the body. This light must refer to understanding the gospel. He said, "The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness." [Luke 11:34]

John called Jesus the light of men, who "lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9-12]

Those who don't believe his gospel, are said to be blinded. [John 12:39-41]

Paul was called to a ministry of opening the eyes of Gentiles, and turning them from darkness to light. [Acts 26:15-19]

The eye is also mentioned in Jesus' message to the churches. To Laodicea he said:

Revelation 3:17-18
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

He does not tell them to pluck out their eyes, but to anoint them.

To the saints of Philadelphia he promised, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." [Revelation 3:10]

What is the hour of trial? Most likely, I think, it refers to the "great tribulation" mentioned in Revelation 7:14. The first group in the chapter, those who are sealed, are exempt, as they are included in the heavenly Jerusalem. Those who miss out are among the great multitude in the second category, "which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues," and of whom John said, "the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes." [Revelation 7:17]

Doug

Darkening the sun

[Taffy]

- Doug

why the semantics-- PLUCK means Pull out=DELIVER  ,Anoint= Rub in [ WITHOIL]the LIGHT which Christ is BEING the EYESALVE as with saul\Paul removing the scales[ PRIDE] from HIS EYES which caused the BLINDNESS--- PRIDE is DEATH-

Lets put it this way Bro-- all that which is witHin being the Flesh= Carnal MIND = DEATH will be cast out\shed\no more \dead\perished\etc etc LEAVING ONLY HIM= SPIRIT= LIFE--- hence we are NO longer FLESH but SPIRIT- :icon_flower:

Blessings :icon_flower:

--

[Taffy]

Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Or maybe the APPOINTED time for Others who through tribulation[ pressing in] is YET to COME---- you know like Paul who too came to SEE the TRUTH through Trial and Tribulation--- :icon_flower:

[Nathan]

The eye is also the window to your soul . . .direct connection to our minds . .which in and of themselves are full of emnity . . .which is connected to what Taf has been saying about Ghenna burning the carnality of man . . renewing of our minds is the same principle.  But it's not to be purged, burned, purified through a fire of our choosing . . .there aer "strange" fires out there that I believe it's possible that that's what Ghenna may be referring to.  A fire cultivated by man, for man's personal gratification. 

Someone posted in this thread the Scriptures that reveal God didn't start this fire, nor did it even cross his mind.  It's a strange fire.  A fire of another source.  It's patterned after the fire of Aaron's two sons who got drunk (also related to the mind) and got their fire from another source and tried to blend their fire in with the rest of them who were celebrating the true fire and it got them killed.  Ghenna was a fire created by godless men who were fooled into thinking they would appease "their" god.  In Rob Bell's new book, he has a really profound saying that he repeats several times.  He says "We shape our god, and then let our god shape us. 

It's what religion has done from it's conception.  We've created an image of God and then we let that image dictate our freedom.  These boys of Ghenna did the same exact thing.  They burned a fire, not ordained by God, and then they let there god murder their kids.  But the beauty . .and miracle is, God took the Ghenna fire and reversed it's purpose.  Instead of destroying people, now, it's a principle that reveals how his fire destroys carnality in people.  It's what I've said all along.  God isn't out to destroy men, he's out to destroy the man in men.  Huge difference, it goes from a message of fear and intimidation, to one of acceptance and celebration.

[Taffy]

The eye is also the window to your soul . . .direct connection to our minds . .which in and of themselves are full of emnity . . .which is connected to what Taf has been saying about Ghenna burning the carnality of man . . renewing of our minds is the same principle.  But it's not to be purged, burned, purified through a fire of our choosing . . .there aer "strange" fires out there that I believe it's possible that that's what Ghenna may be referring to.  A fire cultivated by man, for man's personal gratification. 

Someone posted in this thread the Scriptures that reveal God didn't start this fire, nor did it even cross his mind.  It's a strange fire.  A fire of another source.  It's patterned after the fire of Aaron's two sons who got drunk (also related to the mind) and got their fire from another source and tried to blend their fire in with the rest of them who were celebrating the true fire and it got them killed.  Ghenna was a fire created by godless men who were fooled into thinking they would appease "their" god.  In Rob Bell's new book, he has a really profound saying that he repeats several times.  He says "We shape our god, and then let our god shape us. 

It's what religion has done from it's conception.  We've created an image of God and then we let that image dictate our freedom.  These boys of Ghenna did the same exact thing.  They burned a fire, not ordained by God, and then they let there god murder their kids.  But the beauty . .and miracle is, God took the Ghenna fire and reversed it's purpose.  Instead of destroying people, now, it's a principle that reveals how his fire destroys carnality in people.  It's what I've said all along.  God isn't out to destroy men, he's out to destroy the man in men.  Huge difference, it goes from a message of fear and intimidation, to one of acceptance and celebration.

:icon_flower: