Why baptism

[lightningfrommymouth]

Here we go LOL.

Ask and it shall be given.


Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony

http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf

Molly, in the context of comparing a baptism to a wedding ceremony-I did enjoy the last line in that document.

"Therefore, what God has joined together..."

In that context it does bring a nice new meaning. :)

[lightningfrommymouth]

I'm leaning towards water by baptism to being a renewing to those who choose to participate. There are not a lot of rituals we can do today that our Christ actually did. Going back to the wedding comparison. When I was marrying my husband we contemplated if we would write out own vows or if we would say the traditional. After a lot of thought, we chose the traditional. Our thinking behind that was that we found it comforting, that we were saying the exact vows that millions of other humans had to make a commitment to marriage. I find baptism like that in a way. It's a ritual that not only millions have done-our Savior did it!

'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
   away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (Ac 22:16)

This verse calls to mind that excitement to me. Why ARE you waiting? For this moment, arise and be focused on God's love, let God know your excited to make that commitment with a beautiful ceremony.

[Molly]

but I see it as obedience and identifying with Christ - similar to the communion/the Lord's Supper - symbolic, obedience.  Again, some believe that can be done in a spiritual sense without the literal observance, even.

well, yes, obedience, etc because you have entered into a relationship by vow.

When lightning said it's the difference between a common law marriage and a wedding, I instantly got that.  In a common law marriage, you never had an actual wedding, you just started living together, without taking vows, without making a formal commitment, and 7 years later, the law recognizes you as married.  So, it's something you just kind of fall into, and if it works long enough, you are declared married.

This is as opposed to a wedding, where you make a decision to get married, take vows, make a commitment formally.  Why wouldn't God want that from us?  Of course he would.

Jesus says, Count the cost.  How many of us count the cost of relationship with him and then make the commitment?  Probably very few.  The same is true of married couples.  They don't count the cost, the commitment isn't there, and when things get too hard, 50 percent divorce.

But, interestingly, the divorce rate is higher among couples who lived together before marriage--probably because they had problems making a commitment to begin with--which is why they were living together instead of getting married to begin with.

The difference between common law marriage and a wedding is just that--a recognized formal commitment to each other.

I had always seen baptism as being passive on our part--it's not.

God talks about Israel as his bride all through the Old Testament, and in the OT, Israel fails as a wife.  She is not faithful to him.  She is not trustworthy.  She goes whoring after false gods and idols.  She abandons him.

"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

--Jer 3:8


What he is asking from us is the same thing that any spouse would ask in a committed marriage relationship.  The church pays a lot of attention to the wedding and marriage vows of two people, but how much attention is paid to the wedding and marriage vows with Christ, which is what the former is based on?


22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

--Eph 5

[WhiteWings]

Jesus didn't baptize (except with spiritual fire, as WW pointed out).  Paul only baptized (one or two?).  All the baptizing John the Baptist did was pre-cross.  I'm not sure all of what that means, other than John and Jesus' earthly ministries were unique in many ways to that administration - the wrapping up of the old covenant, and ushering in the new.

Baptism was only done by one sect. It was not something done by all Jews.
I can accept that people see baptism as a commitment to God. That surely sounds positive.
Eating a passover lamb was a commitment/thanks to God also. But Christians see it as an insult because Jesus was the final passover Lamb. Eating a passover lamb now means Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
Jesus ate passover lambs. Jesus was baptized. Both actions were most certainly not against Father's wishes.
The passover lamb got replaced with the Lamb Jesus.
Not unlikely the water baptism got replaced with fire. => Then likewise water baptism would be an insult to HS' work.


Maybe the free becoming His  bride book is of use for some: http://www.returntogod.com/free_stuff/summary.htm#BHB
:dontknow:

[Molly]

For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of host;
and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.
-- Isaiah 54:5

[Molly]

"...Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy (righteous) and blameless." (Ephesians 5:25-27)


"I tell you the truth; no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3)

"I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to Spirit." (John 3:5-6)



"water"

G5204
ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr  hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.


"I delight greatly in the Lord; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and a bride adorns herself with her jewels." (Isaiah 61:10)


"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:12-14)



Rom 6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


1 Peter 3
19 By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.
21 The water of the flood is a picture of the baptism that now saves you also. The baptism I'm talking about has nothing to do with removing dirt from your body. Instead, it promises God that you will keep a clear sense of what is right and wrong.

   
Acts 2
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The [pledge] is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."


and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
--Eph 5


27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ


--Gal 3


Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

[Molly]

Baptism was only done by one sect. It was not something done by all Jews.

John the Baptist [the Immerser] was a Levite, the son of a Levite Priest, an angel of God, wearing the spirit [cloak] of Elias, sent by God for one specific purpose--to prepare the way for the LORD.

He announces the Christ and the kingdom of heaven.

As such, he is the last Levite priest.

Jesus says this of him,

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.



G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.


G911
βάπτω
baptō
bap'-to
A primary verb; to whelm, that is, cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication) to stain (as with dye): - dip.



"whelm"
To cover with water; to submerge; To overcome with emotion

[micah7:9]

Whelm...1) to submerge, cover, or engulf 2)to overpower or crush; overwhelm. (Web. New World College Dict.)
G907
baptizō
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed
G911
baptō
A primary verb; to whelm,
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;
Joh 1:26  John answered them, saying, `I baptize with water, but in midst of you he hath stood whom ye have not known, this one it is who is coming after me, who hath been before me,
Joh 3:23  and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized--
Act 1:5  because John, indeed, baptized with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit--after not many days.'
Act 11:16  and I remembered the saying of the Lord, how he said, John indeed did baptize with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit;

Act 19:3  and he said unto them, `To what, then, were ye baptized?' and they said, `To John's baptism.'
Rom 6:3  are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
1Co 10:2  and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;

Water baptism is John's baptism.

[lightningfrommymouth]

While studying today I came across this....

A few (very few) of the most outstanding Beth Midrash students sought permission to study with a famous rabbi often leaving home to travel with him for a lengthy period of time. These students were called talmidim (talmid, s.) in Hebrew, which is translated disciple. There is much more to a talmid than what we call student. A student wants to know what the teacher knows for the grade, to complete the class or the degree or even out of respect for the teacher. A talmid wants to like the teacher, that is to become what the teacher is. That meant that students were passionately devoted to their rabbi and noted everything he did or said. This meant the rabbi?talmid relationship was a very intense and personal system of education. As the rabbi lived and taught his understanding of the Scripture his students (talmidim) listened and watched and imitated so as to become like him. Eventually they would become teachers passing on a lifestyle to their talmidim.

For me, this is why I was baptized, and why I would encourage it as a pastor. I want to be like my Rabbi, I want to take up his yoke and be his talmid-which means doing everything like he did.

Source-

http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753

[thinktank]

I don't often post scripture and just say Paul said etc, but here is the scripture found and donated by the lovely Molly.


Rom 6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?  4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Here is the scripture just in case you did not believe me. So baptism might act as a knife that cuts off the unbiblical cord and helps kills our carnality, assuming onet akes this interpretation, because one can take it, legalistically or symbolically, but if one takes it spiritually, then there is real spiritual power in baptism.

I think Johns baptism was a ceremony, but all water baptisms done by Holy Spirit filled ministers e.g philip and the eunuch in the chariot, might have some spiritual power behind them, that help kill the flesh. I also think that as Jabcat said that there is a fire baptism, that is similar to the day of pentecoast, this fire baptism can be received anywhere in the world, or at lest anywhere where God wants us to be and does not need water.

[Molly]

Water baptism is John's baptism

Matthew 3:13
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.

Mark 1:9
At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.

It symbolizes crossing the Jordan [death] like Joshua did.  On the other side is the promised land [life].


5And Joshua said unto them, Pass over before the ark of the LORD your God into the midst of Jordan, and take you up every man of you a stone upon his shoulder, according unto the number of the tribes of the children of Israel:

6That this may be a sign among you, that when your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean ye by these stones?

7Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off: and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel for ever.

--Josh 4

[Molly]

8And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the LORD spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there.

9And Joshua set up twelve stones in the midst of Jordan, in the place where the feet of the priests which bare the ark of the covenant stood: and they are there unto this day.

--Josh 4



The stones are exchanged.  New stones are taken from the bottom of the river and carried to the other side and placed together in Gilgal.


18And it came to pass, when the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD were come up out of the midst of Jordan, and the soles of the priests' feet were lifted up unto the dry land, that the waters of Jordan returned unto their place, and flowed over all his banks, as they did before.

19And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho.

20And those twelve stones, which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in Gilgal.

"Gilgal"

H1536
גּלגּל
gilgâl
ghil-gawl'
A variation of H1534: - wheel.


H1534
גּלגּל
galgal
gal-gal'
By reduplication from H1556; a wheel; by analogy a whirlwind; also dust (as whirled): - heaven, rolling thing, wheel.




Those who cross over become the second circumcision.



5Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.

6For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.

7And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.

--Josh 5

[Molly]

9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

--Mark 1



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Water baptism = being baptized into the likeness of His death/grave.
Spirit baptism = being baptized into the likeness of His life/resurrection.

John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus, Jesus's reply was that it was necessary (for John) to baptize Him, to fulfill ALL righteousness. To me, that says it all...... :2c:

[thinktank]

Great a witness to my Holy spirits? theory  :thumbsup: . Although not sure what are those old testament scriptures Molly is posting, I'm not seeing the connection there.

[Molly]

Great a witness to my Holy spirits? theory  :thumbsup: . Although not sure what are those old testament scriptures Molly is posting, I'm not seeing the connection there.

The OT scriptures were about the wet baptism of Joshua, where [only] the priests got wet up to their ankles and the Jordan was cut off and heaped up to Adam.

versus the dry baptism of Moses where nobody got wet.  versus  the fully submerged baptism of John the Baptist for everyone.

What is your Holy Spirits theory?

[thinktank]

That just like laying on hand has spiritual power to heal, that baptism is more than just ceremony and helps bury and slay the flesh. As paul said we were baptized into his death. The water baptism symbolizes this death and this is what John the baptist introduced, but he himself has no power, it is the spirit that has power, and after Jesus came he gave us the gift of the Holy spirit, he sent another after he went, the holy spirit operates because of the authority Jesus had.


So John introduces water baptism, a bit like a priest teaching you how to tap dance.

But it is accomplishments of Jesus his death, that allows the holy spirit to empower water baptism and make tap dancing (water baptsim that John taught) powerful

[micah7:9]

Did Jesus  ever teach or say that water baptism was something we had to do or should do for salvation?

Mar 16:16  he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.

Mat 28:19  having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20  teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full end of the age.'

[HisDaughter]

I agree that it should be encouraged.  I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ.  I don't feel real legalistic about it though.

Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation.  Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins".  However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins". 

I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now.  There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet.   :2c:

I was thinking about the part you said about "no longer need those physical "activities".  Circumcision was a physical act, yet it was not as important as a circumcised heart.  Is the physical act of baptism as important as a washing of the heart?  I think there is some truth to this idea regarding physical activities is not as important as a spiritual change.

[jabcat]

I agree that it should be encouraged.  I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ.  I don't feel real legalistic about it though.

Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation.  Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins".  However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins". 

I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now.  There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet.   :2c:

I was thinking about the part you said about "no longer need those physical "activities".  Circumcision was a physical act, yet it was not as important as a circumcised heart.  Is the physical act of baptism as important as a washing of the heart?  I think there is some truth to this idea regarding physical activities is not as important as a spiritual change.

Hi His.  I personally don't believe or understand that a physical act of baptism is as important as a washing of the heart that occurs when one calls on Jesus and believes on Him for their salvation.  I don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but I personally felt a need to do it after I was saved - I guess more as a conviction of obedience, rather than a necessity for salvation.  I agree there's much to be said for the spiritual side of things, I just wouldn't personally automatically throw everything out, because in doing so we may miss something that's really His will.  Do you think one person's level of maturity, their walk and conscience may dictate something a little different for one than for another?  (I don't mean anything clearly against scripture).     I'm reminded of Paul saying one honors a day, another doesn't, and to "accept each other".  His will and leading  ... :2c:

[HisDaughter]

I agree with you jabcat. Obediances is first, but anyone can be dunked it doesn't mean they did it for the right reason.  Then I think there are circumstances that baptism is not convient such as in a health situation.  It is the hearth condition that is the most important thing.

[jabcat]

 :thumbsup:  I've shared it before on here His, but I've spent most of my life "trying to be good and doing the right things".  Much of that has been works - often I'm afraid, MY works, struggling to be good enough, earn/keep my salvation.  Forgetting grace, and not understanding enough or having matured enough to truly realize that it must be HIS works through me as I just yield to Him, look to Him, trust Him.  So yes, He's still teaching me that, as you say, it's about the heart.

[HisDaughter]

I had a school teacher say to me, "saying your are trying just leaves you room for failure, so don't try just do it".  Of coursed it wasn't that easy.  LOL

When I first became a Christian after a few years of "trying" I gave up and left the Christian walk. Years went by and that urging of the Holy Spirit was to strong to resist.  This is when I relized, that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't live that "Christain life".  This is when I asked Jesus to do it in me or thru me because I realized that if I could do it then I wouldn't have needed a Savior. 

You are so right that "trying" is works.  To me works is a result of Jesus in your life because it is He who does the work thur you.  Yet, don't you believe we have to be willing to be a tool?  I just don't think Jesus would force us to do His will.

[jabcat]

When I first became a Christian after a few years of "trying" I gave up and left the Christian walk. Years went by and that urging of the Holy Spirit was to strong to resist.  This is when I relized, that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't live that "Christain life".  This is when I asked Jesus to do it in me or thru me because I realized that if I could do it then I wouldn't have needed a Savior. 

You are so right that "trying" is works.  To me works is a result of Jesus in your life because it is He who does the work thur you.

Amen.  Admittedly, after all these years, I still sometimes have trouble telling the difference.  He's teaching me (us) though.  You might enjoy the "Battling the Flesh" thread.

Yet, don't you believe we have to be willing to be a tool?  I just don't think Jesus would force us to do His will.

I certainly believe He sets conditions, by putting choices in front of us that we're required to make, and when we make the wrong ones He convicts and keeps calling to us, calling us back on track.  I personally believe that's a big part of how we grow.  We plan our way but God directs our steps.  I don't believe He does that by "making" us, but more so by leading, correcting, and teaching us.  And yes, it goes so much better when I yield my will to Him and am willing to be a tool.  Much fewer spankings that way  :laughing7:.

[HisDaughter]

Amen.  Admittedly, after all these years, I still sometimes have trouble telling the difference.  He's teaching me (us) though.  You might enjoy the "Battling the Flesh" thread.

Yes I went thru that thread.  It is a good thread.  Maybe tonight I will ad my thoughts.

I certainly believe He sets conditions, by putting choices in front of us that we're required to make, and when we make the wrong ones He convicts and keeps calling to us, calling us back on track.  I personally believe that's a big part of how we grow.  We plan our way but God directs our steps.  I don't believe He does that by "making" us, but more so by leading, correcting, and teaching us.  And yes, it goes so much better when I yield my will to Him and am willing to be a tool.  Much fewer spankings that way  .

Maybe force was a bad choice of words.  "Yield" is a better word, of course it is part of that Christian language.  :happygrin: I always use Jonah as an example of being strongly encouraged to do the Lord's will.  It is so much better when we yield. :thumbsup: