Hi everyone. I'm new here, so I hope this is the right area to post this. I understand if Mods need to move this elsewhere.
I'm currently studying to be ordained. While studying I have 3 ring binders in which I separate subjects that I find I need to study. One of those is on baptism. I know with UR people will have different views on rather or not it is necessary. I do believe it should be encouraged, but for the sake of studying-I'd like to write down as many thoughts, views, and opinions the subject as I can. If it is not a view from scripture, that is okay too, but if you don't mind citing your source I'd appreciate it.
Thank you, I look forward to learning what everyone thinks.
I agree that it should be encouraged. I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ. I don't feel real legalistic about it though.
Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation. Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins". However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins".
I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now. There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet. :2c:
I agree, but I did find Paul preaching that as we are baptized in the likeness of his death we shall also be resurected.
Perhaps the act of baptism helps us to kill the old man, so that the new man may reign.
Maybe that's why some christians seem to have a dual nature, 2 personalities, because they were not baptized :dontknow:
I really stress over this subject from time to time. I was baptized as a baby but sometimes I think it would be nice to be baptized as an adult. But, then that would require dealing with a church, which seems to be beyond my abilities lol. If I could find a nice pastor who would make it a personal event, but then I have to worry about total submersion or not and does that make a difference? Like I said, stress lol. And, I also agree with Jab that it is a symbol of something that has already happened for me in reality, so probably not necessary now.
What do you feel about it?
1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
--Heb 6
I also have a friend whose grandchildren have never been baptized because their parents don't go to church. She's Catholic so she's upset about that.
What do people think about children not being baptized?
I suggested she just baptize them herself, but she's afraid it will upset the parents.
I personally don't think they should be until they know more about what they're doing and why; such as, after they become rebirthed believers, and again, are doing so in obedience and identification with Christ.
I don't know that in itself it hurts anything (unless it gives folks a false sense of security, i.e., "I've been baptized so I'm OK"), but I don't believe it profits anything, either. My understanding.
I agree with James that I don't think it's needed for salvation.
I still haven't figured it out for myself but perhaps the odd are a little in favor of baptism.
Jesus was baptized. Jesus isn't a follower of pagan/useless rituals.
AFAIK Jews didn't baptise. They even rarely washed themselfs. But there was one sect that did regulary wash themselfs. (the scribes)
Why did Jesus rebuke the Scribes on about every page in the NT and followed that one custom?
And adding to that calling outward/side cleaness nosensense with inward cleanness.
I would say that learns strongly toward the fact we must get baptized.
BUT
It's also written that Jesus baptizes with fire. And the way I read it, the fire baptism is far greater than the water baptism.
So it could be argued that:
- Water baptism has been replaced by firebaptism.
- Water baptism can be an insult because it means the fire baptism isn't enough. It's just like eating a passover lamb after Jesus died. I mean His dead wasn't good enough and needs a yearly boost....
- Water is outward cleaning. Fire is inward cleaning.
So I'm 100% sure we must be baptized.
But no human can give someone fire baptizm.
My conclusion? Not sure. I would say there is a 10% chance water baptism is required.
If water baptism is still required I'm 100% sure it should be full submersion because the water symbolizes a grave.
:2c:
When I prayed for clarity on this, what came to me was this. That the difference with being baptized and not, is like a common law marriage and a wedding. Having that paper isn't necessary, but it's about following a ritual The Christ did. It's the symbolism and meaning behind it.
lol, I guess though that means you could say sprinkling and a full immersion are like a court wedding and a church wedding. I don't feel that way-it just popped into my head. :)
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2011, 05:32:57 AM
I also have a friend whose grandchildren have never been baptized because their parents don't go to church. She's Catholic so she's upset about that.
What do people think about children not being baptized?
I suggested she just baptize them herself, but she's afraid it will upset the parents.
If as a pastor someone asked me to baptize a child or someone sick, I would. I think though it is up to individuals to when they feel it is right-if they ever do. For me I was around eight. I felt a real need to. I'm one of those people that had an "experience," during mine. It was a full immersion by the pastor in the church, and I don't think I have adequate words to describe the warmth and comfort I felt. I thought my heart would burst right there.
My oldest son is baptized, by choice. My 9 year old is starting to be curious about it, so I will spend some time with him discussing it and let him make the decision.
Quote from: lightningfrommymouth on January 22, 2011, 08:30:34 AM
When I prayed for clarity on this, what came to me was this. That the difference with being baptized and not, is like a common law marriage and a wedding. Having that paper isn't necessary, but it's about following a ritual The Christ did. It's the symbolism and meaning behind it.
lol, I guess though that means you could say sprinkling and a full immersion are like a court wedding and a church wedding. I don't feel that way-it just popped into my head. :)
That's a very interesting way to look at it. But, the common law marriage is still legal.
We did something in my childhood church when we turned 12--we studied in a special class for a year and then were accepted into the body of the church as adults. I can't remembered what they called it--but come to think of it, it sounds very similar to the Jewish bar mitzvah. This was a Congregational church. [That church has since been destroyed, IMO] This, too, was a type of adult baptism for those who had been baptised as babies.
I'm wondering. Do you think it is possible/reasonable for believing laymen to baptise someone? Or does it always have to be an ordained minister?
Molly, for me-I've always felt a definite and very intense need to serve. A calling if you will. Even with that, I truly feel I am just a servant. Only God can ordain, not an organization or man-I just happen to feel that I need more studying and following an ordination program will give that to me. I think it is perfectly reasonable that God would call someone to baptize a specific person, or group of people. I think if someone felt that desire from God, that it's not wrong. A pastor is not holier or above the people they minister to in my opinion. I also feel that if someone asked another to baptize them-without the baptizee feeling a calling that is is good.
That's a very interesting way to look at it. But, the common law marriage is still legal.
Yes, that was my point. :)
Quote from: lightningfrommymouth on January 22, 2011, 07:51:50 PM
That's a very interesting way to look at it. But, the common law marriage is still legal.
Yes, that was my point. :)
Yes, I understand. Do you think of it as a type of marriage ceremony?
Jesus himself never did water baptism to others. Is it because he is the groom?
Could you talk a little about the meaning of it?
Molly, are you testing me, or just curious and asking my opinion? I just got a feeling it wasn't because you were really wanting to know my opinion. I of course could be totally off, as it's hard to read between the lines in writing sometimes. :)
Quote from: lightningfrommymouth on January 22, 2011, 08:45:45 PM
Molly, are you testing me, or just curious and asking my opinion? I just got a feeling it wasn't because you were really wanting to know my opinion. I of course could be totally off, as it's hard to read between the lines in writing sometimes. :)
If I'm testing you, it's not by my design.
You brought up a subject that I've been mulling over off and on for years. So I'm truly interested in your opinion of it, especially because you are studying it.
But, that's ok, if it makes you uncomfortable, I can just keep mulling it over on my own. Since your post, I was thinking of asking my one Christian friend to baptise me in the pool. I might do that next summer.
But, again the idea of a marriage ceremony is very intriguing to me. I never looked at it that way before.
Here we go LOL.
Ask and it shall be given.
Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony
http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
Here we go LOL.
Ask and it shall be given.
Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony
http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf
Molly, not that I mind being tested. We all should be. :) I just couldn't quite tell is all. I'm going to read the pdf. Truly though, the wedding was an analogy for me. Most people know what it is, so it's an easy way to try and explain. I have a bit of studying to do, and then I am going to examine why I feel the way I do about baptism and get back to you. :)
Ok. Just to let you know, I love the idea of a wedding ceremony. :Sparkletooth:
PS no, I don't think most people know what it is. Many churches baptize babies. anyway, I can't say that I know what it is.
The Believer's Wedding Ceremony
http://vimeo.com/10327134
"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin" [2 Cor 11:2]
OMGosh !
I can't watch this video from work. With your reaction, could you plz summarize/quick review it for me micah? :bigGrin:
micah's gone...Molly? Brief summary, or do you want to save the surprise for those watching it? I can watch it later from home if that's best.
The first 5 minutes of it are a little strange lol because he pretends to be conducting a marriage ceremony where he tells the couple the truth about what marriage is going to mean to them in a practical sense--and they end up walking away.
The point he is making is that baptism is a commitment to Christ and our life will change by virtue of our commitment [dying to self, putting Christ first, etc]. And he reads some scripture about baptism as the marriage ceremony and why it is important.
Here's what's going on for me--I never understood baptism as being the actual marriage ceremony before. I don't even know if it's right yet, but it makes complete sense to me. God has already committed to us, and now he is waiting for us to make a commitment to him.
I always saw the 'bride of Christ' as being 1) a corporate function and 2) something that was going to happen in the future, when Christ comes for his bride, the church.
This is the first time I've seen it as something personal.
Micah, if you got freaked out in the first five minutes, keep watching lol.
Thanks Molly. I've got to be honest, although there could be some type of meaning on a level/layer of it WAY on down the list of applications, I really mainly don't see it that way. Maybe I'm in shallow water here :wink: but I see it as obedience and identifying with Christ - similar to the communion/the Lord's Supper - symbolic, obedience. Again, some believe that can be done in a spiritual sense without the literal observance, even.
Jesus didn't baptize (except with spiritual fire, as WW pointed out). Paul only baptized (one or two?). All the baptizing John the Baptist did was pre-cross. I'm not sure all of what that means, other than John and Jesus' earthly ministries were unique in many ways to that administration - the wrapping up of the old covenant, and ushering in the new.
Well, this really isn't a topic I've given just a ton of thought to. If God shows you some things about it, I believe you believe it won't be anything that won't line up with the scriptures, so do share. :bigGrin:
P.S. OTOH, perhaps being obedient is "making a committment" of sorts...though I'd personally prefer to see it as surrender... :Chinscratch:
Also though, I certainly wouldn't discourage a spiritually reborn believer from being baptized if they felt led to do it. Maybe there are meanings between them and God that I don't see. :2c:
Quote from: Molly on January 22, 2011, 09:03:45 PM
Here we go LOL.
Ask and it shall be given.
Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony
http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf
Molly, in the context of comparing a baptism to a wedding ceremony-I did enjoy the last line in that document.
"Therefore, what God has joined together..."
In that context it does bring a nice new meaning. :)
I'm leaning towards water by baptism to being a renewing to those who choose to participate. There are not a lot of rituals we can do today that our Christ actually did. Going back to the wedding comparison. When I was marrying my husband we contemplated if we would write out own vows or if we would say the traditional. After a lot of thought, we chose the traditional. Our thinking behind that was that we found it comforting, that we were saying the exact vows that millions of other humans had to make a commitment to marriage. I find baptism like that in a way. It's a ritual that not only millions have done-our Savior did it!
'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash
away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.' (Ac 22:16)
This verse calls to mind that excitement to me. Why ARE you waiting? For this moment, arise and be focused on God's love, let God know your excited to make that commitment with a beautiful ceremony.
Quote from: Jabbut I see it as obedience and identifying with Christ - similar to the communion/the Lord's Supper - symbolic, obedience. Again, some believe that can be done in a spiritual sense without the literal observance, even.
well, yes, obedience, etc because you have entered into a relationship by vow.
When lightning said it's the difference between a common law marriage and a wedding, I instantly got that. In a common law marriage, you never had an actual wedding, you just started living together, without taking vows, without making a formal commitment, and 7 years later, the law recognizes you as married. So, it's something you just kind of fall into, and if it works long enough, you are declared married.
This is as opposed to a wedding, where you make a decision to get married, take vows, make a commitment formally. Why wouldn't God want that from us? Of course he would.
Jesus says, Count the cost. How many of us count the cost of relationship with him and then make the commitment? Probably very few. The same is true of married couples. They don't count the cost, the commitment isn't there, and when things get too hard, 50 percent divorce.
But, interestingly, the divorce rate is higher among couples who lived together before marriage--probably because they had problems making a commitment to begin with--which is why they were living together instead of getting married to begin with.
The difference between common law marriage and a wedding is just that--a recognized formal commitment to each other.
I had always seen baptism as being passive on our part--it's not.
God talks about Israel as his bride all through the Old Testament, and in the OT, Israel fails as a wife. She is not faithful to him. She is not trustworthy. She goes whoring after false gods and idols. She abandons him.
"And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."--Jer 3:8
What he is asking from us is the same thing that any spouse would ask in a committed marriage relationship. The church pays a lot of attention to the wedding and marriage vows of two people, but how much attention is paid to the wedding and marriage vows with Christ, which is what the former is based on?
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32
This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
--Eph 5
Quote from: jabcat on January 23, 2011, 06:25:44 AMJesus didn't baptize (except with spiritual fire, as WW pointed out). Paul only baptized (one or two?). All the baptizing John the Baptist did was pre-cross. I'm not sure all of what that means, other than John and Jesus' earthly ministries were unique in many ways to that administration - the wrapping up of the old covenant, and ushering in the new.
Baptism was only done by one sect. It was not something done by all Jews.
I can accept that people see baptism as a commitment to God. That surely sounds positive.
Eating a passover lamb was a commitment/thanks to God also. But Christians see it as an insult because Jesus was the final passover Lamb. Eating a passover lamb now means Jesus' sacrifice wasn't enough.
Jesus ate passover lambs. Jesus was baptized. Both actions were most certainly not against Father's wishes.
The passover lamb got replaced with the Lamb Jesus.
Not unlikely the water baptism got replaced with fire. => Then likewise water baptism would be an insult to HS' work.
Maybe the free becoming His bride book is of use for some: http://www.returntogod.com/free_stuff/summary.htm#BHB
:dontknow:
For your husband is your Maker, whose name is the Lord of host;
and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.
-- Isaiah 54:5
"...Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word, and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy (righteous) and blameless." (Ephesians 5:25-27)
"I tell you the truth; no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." (John 3:3)
"I tell you the truth; no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to Spirit." (John 3:5-6)
"water"
G5204
ὕδωρ, ὕδατος
hudōr hudatos
hoo'-dor, hoo'-dat-os, etc.
From the base of G5205; water (as if rainy) literally or figuratively: - water.
"I delight greatly in the Lord; my soul rejoices in my God. For He has clothed me with garments of salvation and arrayed me in a robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom adorns his head like a priest, and a bride adorns herself with her jewels." (Isaiah 61:10)
"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city." (Revelation 22:12-14)
Rom 6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
1 Peter 3
19 By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison. 20 Long ago they did not obey. God was patient while Noah was building the ark. He waited, but only a few people went into the ark. A total of eight were saved by means of water.
21 The water of the flood is a picture of the baptism that now saves you also. The baptism I'm talking about has nothing to do with removing dirt from your body. Instead, it promises God that you will keep a clear sense of what is right and wrong.
Acts 2
38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The [pledge] is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call."
and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
--Eph 5
27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ
--Gal 3
Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Quote from: wwBaptism was only done by one sect. It was not something done by all Jews.
John the Baptist [the Immerser] was a Levite, the son of a Levite Priest, an angel of God, wearing the spirit [cloak] of Elias, sent by God for one specific purpose--to prepare the way for the LORD.
He announces the Christ and the kingdom of heaven.
As such, he is the last Levite priest.
Jesus says this of him,
Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
G907
βαπτίζω
baptizō
bap-tid'-zo
From a derivative of G911;
to make whelmed (that is, fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism: - baptist, baptize, wash.
G911
βάπτω
baptōbap'-to
A primary verb;
to whelm, that is,
cover wholly with a fluid; in the New Testament only in a qualified or specific sense, that is, (literally) to moisten (a part of one's person), or (by implication)
to stain (as with dye): - dip.
"whelm"To cover with water; to submerge; To overcome with emotion
Whelm...1) to submerge, cover, or engulf 2)to overpower or crush; overwhelm. (Web. New World College Dict.)
G907
baptizō
From a derivative of G911; to make whelmed
G911
baptō
A primary verb; to whelm,
Luk 3:16 John answered, saying to all, `I indeed with water do baptise you, but he cometh who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to loose the latchet of his sandals--he shall baptise you with the Holy Spirit and with fire;
Joh 1:26 John answered them, saying, `I baptize with water, but in midst of you he hath stood whom ye have not known, this one it is who is coming after me, who hath been before me,
Joh 3:23 and John was also baptizing in Aenon, nigh to Salem, because there were many waters there, and they were coming and were being baptized--
Act 1:5 because John, indeed, baptized with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit--after not many days.'
Act 11:16 and I remembered the saying of the Lord, how he said, John indeed did baptize with water, and ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit;
Act 19:3 and he said unto them, `To what, then, were ye baptized?' and they said, `To John's baptism.'
Rom 6:3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
1Co 10:2 and all to Moses were baptized in the cloud, and in the sea;
Water baptism is John's baptism.
While studying today I came across this....
A few (very few) of the most outstanding Beth Midrash students sought permission to study with a famous rabbi often leaving home to travel with him for a lengthy period of time. These students were called talmidim (talmid, s.) in Hebrew, which is translated disciple. There is much more to a talmid than what we call student. A student wants to know what the teacher knows for the grade, to complete the class or the degree or even out of respect for the teacher. A talmid wants to like the teacher, that is to become what the teacher is. That meant that students were passionately devoted to their rabbi and noted everything he did or said. This meant the rabbi?talmid relationship was a very intense and personal system of education. As the rabbi lived and taught his understanding of the Scripture his students (talmidim) listened and watched and imitated so as to become like him. Eventually they would become teachers passing on a lifestyle to their talmidim.
For me, this is why I was baptized, and why I would encourage it as a pastor. I want to be like my Rabbi, I want to take up his yoke and be his talmid-which means doing everything like he did.
Source-
http://www.followtherabbi.com/Brix?pageID=2753
I don't often post scripture and just say Paul said etc, but here is the scripture found and donated by the lovely Molly.
Rom 6
3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Here is the scripture just in case you did not believe me. So baptism might act as a knife that cuts off the unbiblical cord and helps kills our carnality, assuming onet akes this interpretation, because one can take it, legalistically or symbolically, but if one takes it spiritually, then there is real spiritual power in baptism.
I think Johns baptism was a ceremony, but all water baptisms done by Holy Spirit filled ministers e.g philip and the eunuch in the chariot, might have some spiritual power behind them, that help kill the flesh. I also think that as Jabcat said that there is a fire baptism, that is similar to the day of pentecoast, this fire baptism can be received anywhere in the world, or at lest anywhere where God wants us to be and does not need water.
QuoteWater baptism is John's baptism
Matthew 3:13
Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.
Mark 1:9
At that time Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan.
It symbolizes crossing the Jordan [death] like Joshua did. On the other side is the promised land [life].
5And Joshua said unto them, Pass over before the ark of the LORD your God into the midst of Jordan, and take you up every man of you a stone upon his shoulder, according unto the number of the tribes of the children of Israel:
6That this may be a sign among you, that when your children ask their fathers in time to come, saying, What mean ye by these stones?
7Then ye shall answer them, That the waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of the covenant of the LORD; when it passed over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off: and these stones shall be for a memorial unto the children of Israel for ever.
--Josh 4
8And the children of Israel did so as Joshua commanded, and took up twelve stones out of the midst of Jordan, as the LORD spake unto Joshua, according to the number of the tribes of the children of Israel, and carried them over with them unto the place where they lodged, and laid them down there.
9And Joshua set up twelve stones in the midst of Jordan, in the place where the feet of the priests which bare the ark of the covenant stood: and they are there unto this day.
--Josh 4
The stones are exchanged. New stones are taken from the bottom of the river and carried to the other side and placed together in Gilgal.
18And it came to pass, when the priests that bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD were come up out of the midst of Jordan, and the soles of the priests' feet were lifted up unto the dry land, that the waters of Jordan returned unto their place, and flowed over all his banks, as they did before.
19And the people came up out of Jordan on the tenth day of the first month, and encamped in Gilgal, in the east border of Jericho.
20And those twelve stones, which they took out of Jordan, did Joshua pitch in Gilgal.
"Gilgal"
H1536
גּלגּל
gilgâl
ghil-gawl'
A variation of H1534: - wheel.
H1534
גּלגּל
galgal
gal-gal'
By reduplication from H1556; a wheel; by analogy a whirlwind; also dust (as whirled): - heaven, rolling thing, wheel.
Those who cross over become the second circumcision.
5Now all the people that came out were circumcised: but all the people that were born in the wilderness by the way as they came forth out of Egypt, them they had not circumcised.
6For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
7And their children, whom he raised up in their stead, them Joshua circumcised: for they were uncircumcised, because they had not circumcised them by the way.
--Josh 5
9And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.
10And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
11And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
--Mark 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMnni9g7hgM
:cloud9: Water baptism = being baptized into the likeness of His death/grave.
Spirit baptism = being baptized into the likeness of His life/resurrection.
John said he needed to be baptized by Jesus, Jesus's reply was that it was necessary (for John) to baptize Him, to fulfill ALL righteousness. To me, that says it all...... :2c:
Great a witness to my Holy spirits? theory :thumbsup: . Although not sure what are those old testament scriptures Molly is posting, I'm not seeing the connection there.
Quote from: thinktank on January 24, 2011, 10:03:43 PM
Great a witness to my Holy spirits? theory :thumbsup: . Although not sure what are those old testament scriptures Molly is posting, I'm not seeing the connection there.
The OT scriptures were about the wet baptism of Joshua, where [only] the priests got wet up to their ankles and the Jordan was cut off and heaped up to Adam.
versus the dry baptism of Moses where nobody got wet. versus the fully submerged baptism of John the Baptist for everyone.
What is your Holy Spirits theory?
That just like laying on hand has spiritual power to heal, that baptism is more than just ceremony and helps bury and slay the flesh. As paul said we were baptized into his death. The water baptism symbolizes this death and this is what John the baptist introduced, but he himself has no power, it is the spirit that has power, and after Jesus came he gave us the gift of the Holy spirit, he sent another after he went, the holy spirit operates because of the authority Jesus had.
So John introduces water baptism, a bit like a priest teaching you how to tap dance.
But it is accomplishments of Jesus his death, that allows the holy spirit to empower water baptism and make tap dancing (water baptsim that John taught) powerful
Did Jesus ever teach or say that water baptism was something we had to do or should do for salvation?
Mar 16:16 he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
Mat 28:19 having gone, then, disciple all the nations, (baptizing them--to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,
Mat 28:20 teaching them to observe all, whatever I did command you,) and lo, I am with you all the days--till the full end of the age.'
Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2011, 05:03:16 AM
I agree that it should be encouraged. I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ. I don't feel real legalistic about it though.
Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation. Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins". However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins".
I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now. There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet. :2c:
I was thinking about the part you said about "no longer need those physical "activities". Circumcision was a physical act, yet it was not as important as a circumcised heart. Is the physical act of baptism as important as a washing of the heart? I think there is some truth to this idea regarding physical activities is not as important as a spiritual change.
Quote from: HisDaughter on February 03, 2011, 05:29:48 AM
Quote from: jabcat on January 22, 2011, 05:03:16 AM
I agree that it should be encouraged. I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ. I don't feel real legalistic about it though.
Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation. Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins". However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins".
I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now. There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet. :2c:
I was thinking about the part you said about "no longer need those physical "activities". Circumcision was a physical act, yet it was not as important as a circumcised heart. Is the physical act of baptism as important as a washing of the heart? I think there is some truth to this idea regarding physical activities is not as important as a spiritual change.
Hi His. I personally don't believe or understand that a physical act of baptism is as important as a washing of the heart that occurs when one calls on Jesus and believes on Him for their salvation. I don't believe baptism is necessary for salvation, but I personally felt a need to do it after I was saved - I guess more as a conviction of obedience, rather than a necessity for salvation. I agree there's much to be said for the spiritual side of things, I just wouldn't personally automatically throw everything out, because in doing so we may miss something that's really His will. Do you think one person's level of maturity, their walk and conscience may dictate something a little different for one than for another? (I don't mean anything
clearly against scripture). I'm reminded of Paul saying one honors a day, another doesn't, and to "accept each other". His will and leading ... :2c:
I agree with you jabcat. Obediances is first, but anyone can be dunked it doesn't mean they did it for the right reason. Then I think there are circumstances that baptism is not convient such as in a health situation. It is the hearth condition that is the most important thing.
:thumbsup: I've shared it before on here His, but I've spent most of my life "trying to be good and doing the right things". Much of that has been works - often I'm afraid, MY works, struggling to be good enough, earn/keep my salvation. Forgetting grace, and not understanding enough or having matured enough to truly realize that it must be HIS works through me as I just yield to Him, look to Him, trust Him. So yes, He's still teaching me that, as you say, it's about the heart.
I had a school teacher say to me, "saying your are trying just leaves you room for failure, so don't try just do it". Of coursed it wasn't that easy. LOL
When I first became a Christian after a few years of "trying" I gave up and left the Christian walk. Years went by and that urging of the Holy Spirit was to strong to resist. This is when I relized, that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't live that "Christain life". This is when I asked Jesus to do it in me or thru me because I realized that if I could do it then I wouldn't have needed a Savior.
You are so right that "trying" is works. To me works is a result of Jesus in your life because it is He who does the work thur you. Yet, don't you believe we have to be willing to be a tool? I just don't think Jesus would force us to do His will.
When I first became a Christian after a few years of "trying" I gave up and left the Christian walk. Years went by and that urging of the Holy Spirit was to strong to resist. This is when I relized, that no matter how hard I tried I couldn't live that "Christain life". This is when I asked Jesus to do it in me or thru me because I realized that if I could do it then I wouldn't have needed a Savior.
You are so right that "trying" is works. To me works is a result of Jesus in your life because it is He who does the work thur you.
Amen. Admittedly, after all these years, I still sometimes have trouble telling the difference. He's teaching me (us) though. You might enjoy the "Battling the Flesh" thread.
Yet, don't you believe we have to be willing to be a tool? I just don't think Jesus would force us to do His will.
I certainly believe He sets conditions, by putting choices in front of us that we're required to make, and when we make the wrong ones He convicts and keeps calling to us, calling us back on track. I personally believe that's a big part of how we grow. We plan our way but God directs our steps. I don't believe He does that by "making" us, but more so by leading, correcting, and teaching us. And yes, it goes so much better when I yield my will to Him and am willing to be a tool. Much fewer spankings that way :laughing7:.
Amen. Admittedly, after all these years, I still sometimes have trouble telling the difference. He's teaching me (us) though. You might enjoy the "Battling the Flesh" thread.
Yes I went thru that thread. It is a good thread. Maybe tonight I will ad my thoughts.
I certainly believe He sets conditions, by putting choices in front of us that we're required to make, and when we make the wrong ones He convicts and keeps calling to us, calling us back on track. I personally believe that's a big part of how we grow. We plan our way but God directs our steps. I don't believe He does that by "making" us, but more so by leading, correcting, and teaching us. And yes, it goes so much better when I yield my will to Him and am willing to be a tool. Much fewer spankings that way .
Maybe force was a bad choice of words. "Yield" is a better word, of course it is part of that Christian language. :happygrin: I always use Jonah as an example of being strongly encouraged to do the Lord's will. It is so much better when we yield. :thumbsup:
This is one of those threads where I can't wait to get to the end so I can jump in and swim with you guys to!!!
I am a bit baffled that no one seems to have posted their definition of "baptised". For me, there are actually two separate meanings used for this Greek word. I don't remember where it is now, but there was a chef that had a Greek background who wrote some instructions for a recipe and in it, he used both definitions for "baptize". In layman's terns. One definition meanst to "dip" which only makes sense. But it's the other one that really jumped out at me . . .it takes the "dipping" to the next level. It actually means "pickled".
It's not about getting wet in water, it's about the old man becoming like the seed where it dies, but then out of that death resurrects a new creature . .one that may have the same form on the outside, but has been totally transformed on the inside. You may still look like the same cucumber when you went in, but after you come out . . .those who taste you find that the solution that you went into has now permeated all through you and the flavor of your nature has changed. THAT'S the kind of baptism I can get into!!
Now, as to the water baptsims . . .I can't really apply the Hebrews 6 passage to this (laying down the milk and reaching for the meat) because for me, water baptism is primarilty for infancy. Was Jesus an infant when he was baptised? For one, there's no record that the priests baptized him when they first brought him to the temple . . .I'm not personally into baptizing babies. I think people should be old enough to know what it's about and make a personal decision to do it themselves.
But for the spiritual infants . . .no, Jesus wasn't one, but his ministry "was". A lot was going on when he was baptized. First of all . . .what was it he was baptized "in"? It wasn't just "any" river . . .it was the "Jordan". Whcih literally means "descending" which is connected to our word for "death". He was baptized, changed, from the kingdom of light and life, to this realm of death . . .but not so that death would be a part of him, but that he would overcome the power of death.
It's the same picture as when the Israelites first crossed this same river after their wilderness experience of 40 years was over. It was out of it's banks . . .death always is. . . .and the moment those who were carrying the ark upon their shoulders had their feet touch the waters of death, the entire river backed up . . .not just to give them a place to cross . . .but where did it back up "to"? A specific city is mentioned. This river of death retreated all the way back to a city called . . .ADAM!!
Water baptism is an outward manifestation of an inward transformation that we are no longer under the control and bondage of the old "doom and gloom" thinking of our carnal man. But the prison bars have been transformed from bondage to freedom and a water baptism is merely a testimony of what is already transpired within us.
And on a personal note, being a pastor, I have been involved in baptisms both "in" and "out" of the church walls. And I personally would never do another baptism in a church baptistry. I'm not condeming those that do, but there's such a greater testimony to the world, and our real neighbors when we go to the local parks or close-by rivers . . .it could even be something you could do at the city pool if that were to be allowed . . .but the whole point of water baptism is not so you can stand in front of your "church" family and proclaim what they already know . . .it's such a greater affect when you do something of this nature out on the river banks and let those who . . .well, . .they were just wanting to try to catch a fish, come back home that day with a memory of seeing a real, life changing baptism take place . . .
I promise you, they'll be so much greater affected than an entire church congregation just there to clap for you and sing a hymn while wating for the next one to do the same.
Quote from: Molly on January 23, 2011, 01:01:04 PM1 Peter 3
19 By means of the Spirit, Christ went and preached to the spirits in prison.
We have to make one correction in the NASB translation above. The phrase "went and" in verse 19 is NOT in the original Greek text. It does NOT say that He WENT AND preached, as if to conjure up the image of a circuit-riding preacher. The text actually reads that Jesus was "made alive in the spirit; in which [resurrected body] also He made proclamation to the spirits now in prison."
In other words He was raised from the dead as a life-giving spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) and given a resurrected body, in which He made His proclamation to the spirits in prison—that is, in Tartarus. His very resurrection (or embodiment) was the proclamation. His resurrection into a physical body made of flesh and bone (Luke 24:39) was the proclamation of His enthronement over all, including the angels that sinned (or "spirits in prison").
http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.org/COLDFUSION/Chapter.cfm?CID=81