Why baptism

[lightningfrommymouth]

Hi everyone. I'm new here, so I hope this is the right area to post this. I understand if Mods need to move this elsewhere.

I'm currently studying to be ordained. While studying I have 3 ring binders in which I separate subjects that I find I need to study. One of those is on baptism. I know with UR people will have different views on rather or not it is necessary. I do believe it should be encouraged, but for the sake of studying-I'd like to write down as many thoughts, views, and opinions the subject as I can. If it is not a view from scripture, that is okay too, but if you don't mind citing your source I'd appreciate it.

Thank you, I look forward to learning what everyone thinks.

[jabcat]

I agree that it should be encouraged.  I personally don't believe it's necessary for salvation, but more as an act of obedience and a way of identifying with Christ.  I don't feel real legalistic about it though.

Some have argued (and there's a whole denomination based on it, The Church of Christ) that baptism is necessary for salvation.  Much of their doctrine is based on the scripture that the KJV translates as "..be baptized for the remission of your sins".  However, as I understand, the more literal translation is "be baptized because of the remission of your sins". 

I've also seen teaching that we no longer need those physical "activities", that it's all spiritual now.  There could be some truth to that, however, personally I'm not completely there yet.   :2c:

[thinktank]

I agree, but I did find Paul preaching that as we are baptized in the likeness of his death we shall also be resurected.

Perhaps the act of baptism helps us to kill the old man, so that the new man may reign.

Maybe that's why some christians seem to have a dual nature, 2 personalities, because they were not baptized  :dontknow:

[Molly]

I really stress over this subject from time to time.  I was baptized as a baby but sometimes I think it would be nice to be baptized as an adult.  But, then that would require dealing with a church, which seems to be beyond my abilities lol.  If I could find a nice pastor who would make it a personal event, but then I have to worry about total submersion or not and does that make a difference?  Like I said, stress lol.  And, I also agree with Jab that it is a symbol of something that has already happened for me in reality, so probably not necessary now. 

What do you feel about it?


1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3And this will we do, if God permit.

--Heb 6

[Molly]

I also have a friend whose grandchildren have never been baptized because their parents don't go to church.  She's Catholic so she's upset about that.

What do people think about children not being baptized?

I suggested she just baptize them herself, but she's afraid it will upset the parents.

[jabcat]

I personally don't think they should be until they know more about what they're doing and why;  such as, after they become rebirthed believers, and again, are doing so in obedience and identification with Christ.

I don't know that in itself it hurts anything (unless it gives folks a false sense of security, i.e., "I've been baptized so I'm OK"), but I don't believe it profits anything, either.  My understanding.

[WhiteWings]

I agree with James that I don't think it's needed for salvation.
I still haven't figured it out for myself but perhaps the odd are a little in favor of baptism.

Jesus was baptized. Jesus isn't a follower of pagan/useless rituals.
AFAIK Jews didn't baptise. They even rarely washed themselfs. But there was one sect that did regulary wash themselfs. (the scribes)
Why did Jesus rebuke the Scribes on about every page in the NT and followed that one custom?
And adding to that calling outward/side cleaness nosensense with inward cleanness.
I would say that learns strongly toward the fact we must get baptized.

BUT

It's also written that Jesus baptizes with fire. And the way I read it, the fire baptism is far greater than the water baptism.
So it could be argued that:
- Water baptism has been replaced by firebaptism.
- Water baptism can be an insult because it means the fire baptism isn't enough. It's just like eating a passover lamb after Jesus died. I mean His dead wasn't good enough and needs a yearly boost....
- Water is outward cleaning. Fire is inward cleaning.

So I'm 100% sure we must be baptized.
But no human can give someone  fire baptizm.

My conclusion? Not sure. I would say there is a 10% chance water baptism is required.
If water baptism is still required I'm 100% sure it should be full submersion because the water symbolizes a grave.

:2c:

[lightningfrommymouth]

When I prayed for clarity on this, what came to me was this. That the difference with being baptized and not, is like a common law marriage and a wedding. Having that paper isn't necessary, but it's about following a ritual The Christ did. It's the symbolism and meaning behind it.

lol, I guess though that means you could say sprinkling and a full immersion are like a court wedding and a church wedding. I don't feel that way-it just popped into my head. :)

[lightningfrommymouth]

I also have a friend whose grandchildren have never been baptized because their parents don't go to church.  She's Catholic so she's upset about that.

What do people think about children not being baptized?

I suggested she just baptize them herself, but she's afraid it will upset the parents.

If as a pastor someone asked me to baptize a child or someone sick, I would. I think though it is up to individuals to when they feel it is right-if they ever do. For me I was around eight. I felt a real need to. I'm one of those people that had an "experience," during mine. It was a full immersion by the pastor in the church, and I don't think I have adequate words to describe the warmth and comfort I felt. I thought my heart would burst right there.

My oldest son is baptized, by choice. My 9 year old is starting to be curious about it, so I will spend some time with him discussing it and let him make the decision.

[Molly]

When I prayed for clarity on this, what came to me was this. That the difference with being baptized and not, is like a common law marriage and a wedding. Having that paper isn't necessary, but it's about following a ritual The Christ did. It's the symbolism and meaning behind it.

lol, I guess though that means you could say sprinkling and a full immersion are like a court wedding and a church wedding. I don't feel that way-it just popped into my head. :)

That's a very interesting way to look at it.  But, the common law marriage is still legal.

We did something in my childhood church when we turned 12--we studied in a special class for a year and then were accepted into the body of the church as adults.  I can't remembered what they called it--but come to think of it, it sounds very similar to the Jewish bar mitzvah.  This was a Congregational church.  [That church has since been destroyed, IMO]  This, too, was a type of adult  baptism for those who had been baptised as babies.

I'm wondering.  Do you think it is possible/reasonable for believing laymen to baptise someone?  Or does it always have to be an ordained minister?

[lightningfrommymouth]

Molly, for me-I've always felt a definite and very intense need to serve. A calling if you will. Even with that, I truly feel I am just a servant. Only God can ordain, not an organization or man-I just happen to feel that I need more studying and following an ordination program will give that to me. I think it is perfectly reasonable that God would call someone to baptize a specific person, or group of people. I think if someone felt that desire from God, that it's not wrong. A pastor is not holier or above the people they minister to in my opinion. I also feel that if someone asked another to baptize them-without the baptizee feeling a calling that is is good.

[lightningfrommymouth]

That's a very interesting way to look at it.  But, the common law marriage is still legal.

Yes, that was my point. :)

[Molly]

That's a very interesting way to look at it.  But, the common law marriage is still legal.

Yes, that was my point. :)

Yes, I understand.  Do you think of it as a type of marriage ceremony?

Jesus himself never did water baptism to others.  Is it because he is the groom?

Could you talk a little about the meaning of it?

[lightningfrommymouth]

Molly, are you testing me, or just curious and asking my opinion? I just got a feeling it wasn't because you were really wanting to know my opinion. I of course could be totally off, as it's hard to read between the lines in writing sometimes. :)

[Molly]

Molly, are you testing me, or just curious and asking my opinion? I just got a feeling it wasn't because you were really wanting to know my opinion. I of course could be totally off, as it's hard to read between the lines in writing sometimes. :)

If I'm testing you, it's not by my design.

You brought up a subject that I've been mulling over off and on for years.  So I'm truly interested in your opinion of it, especially because you are studying it.

But, that's ok, if it makes you uncomfortable, I can just keep mulling it over on my own.  Since your post, I was thinking of asking my one Christian friend to baptise me in the pool.  I might do that next summer.

But, again the idea of a marriage ceremony is very intriguing to me.  I never looked at it that way before.

[Molly]

Here we go LOL.

Ask and it shall be given.


Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony

http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf

[lightningfrommymouth]

Here we go LOL.

Ask and it shall be given.


Baptism: the Believer's Wedding Ceremony

http://www.montcofc.org/sermon_outlines/Baptism,A%20Believer's%20Wedding%20Ceremony.pdf

Molly, not that I mind being tested. We all should be. :) I just couldn't quite tell is all. I'm going to read the pdf. Truly though, the wedding was an analogy for me. Most people know what it is, so it's an easy way to try and explain. I have a bit of studying to do, and then I am going to examine why I feel the way I do about baptism and get back to you. :)

[Molly]

Ok.  Just to let you know, I love the idea of a wedding ceremony. :Sparkletooth:

PS no, I don't think most people know what it is.  Many churches baptize babies.  anyway, I can't say that I know what it is.

[Molly]

The Believer's Wedding Ceremony

http://vimeo.com/10327134


"For I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one husband, so that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin" [2 Cor 11:2]

[micah7:9]

OMGosh !

[jabcat]

I can't watch this video from work.  With your reaction, could you plz summarize/quick review it for me micah?   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

micah's gone...Molly?  Brief summary, or do you want to save the surprise for those watching it?  I can watch it later from home if that's best.

[Molly]

The first 5 minutes of it are a little strange lol because he pretends to be conducting a marriage ceremony where he tells the couple the truth about what marriage is going to mean to them in a practical sense--and they end up walking away.

The point he is making is that baptism is a commitment to Christ and our life will change by virtue of our commitment [dying to self, putting Christ first, etc].  And he reads some scripture about baptism as the marriage ceremony and why it is important.

Here's what's going on for me--I never understood baptism as being the actual marriage ceremony before.  I don't even know if it's right yet, but it makes complete sense to me.  God has already committed to us, and now he is waiting for us to make a commitment to him.

I always saw the 'bride of Christ' as being 1) a corporate function and 2) something that was going to happen in the future, when Christ comes for his bride, the church.

This is the first time I've seen it as something personal.

Micah, if you got freaked out in the first five minutes, keep watching lol.

[jabcat]

Thanks Molly.  I've got to be honest, although there could be some type of meaning on a level/layer of it WAY on down the list of applications, I really mainly don't see it that way.  Maybe I'm in shallow water here  :wink: but I see it as obedience and identifying with Christ - similar to the communion/the Lord's Supper - symbolic, obedience.  Again, some believe that can be done in a spiritual sense without the literal observance, even.

Jesus didn't baptize (except with spiritual fire, as WW pointed out).  Paul only baptized (one or two?).  All the baptizing John the Baptist did was pre-cross.  I'm not sure all of what that means, other than John and Jesus' earthly ministries were unique in many ways to that administration - the wrapping up of the old covenant, and ushering in the new. 

Well, this really isn't a topic I've given just a ton of thought to.  If God shows you some things about it, I believe you believe it won't be anything that won't line up with the scriptures, so do share.   :bigGrin:

[jabcat]

P.S.  OTOH, perhaps being obedient is "making a committment" of sorts...though I'd personally prefer to see it as surrender... :Chinscratch:


Also though, I certainly wouldn't discourage a spiritually reborn believer from being baptized if they felt led to do it.  Maybe there are meanings between them and God that I don't see.   :2c: