First Corinthians 6:9-10 Unrighteous Will Not Inherit the Kingdom

[Nathan]

So . .there goes grace right out the window then.  All alcoholics . . . to hell with the lot of you.  God's love can't go beyond the bottle.

What if the thorn in Paul's side was an addiction to something?  Are you saying that because we have imperfections that we can't see the kingdom?  It's my understanding that it's not a condition of the mind that opens up our ability to see truth, but it's the condition of our heart.  If we're "receptive" to the things of God, he'll be generous in his giving even though not everyone may be delivered from their addiction. 

Sin isn't a dirty secret that you should be ashamed of.  God knows we are still in bodies of flesh and these bodies can become addicted . . .but I don't base my ability to enter into the kingdom on whether I have an addiction or not.  God can use donkey's chickens, fish, birds, even serpents to manifest his will . . .but he can't use people because of a weakness in their life?  Sounds a bit conforming to me. 

Just my 2 :2c: 

[thinktank]

I think God can use anyone, sometimes  a tramp on the street might give you a word of wisdom from God.
But God expects us to live holy lives, to say grace covers our sins constantly is mocking almighty God and tramples upon the blood of Jesus as an unholy thing, God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows that he shall reap, whether it be righteousness or unrighteousness.

The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.

[Molly]

Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.

That is the first thing Jesus preached.  At hand means near, right next to you.

So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.

We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind.  You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.

I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him.  I think AA is heavily based on that principle.  If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.

We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

[Nathan]

The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.

This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking.  I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall.  I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children.  He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences.  He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries.  He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word.  They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them.  It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons.  So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.

Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came.  Make any sense?  The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons.  And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle.  Only the son gets the inheritance.  I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.

The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general.  They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves.  They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting.  The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church.  They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .

Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate.  Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it.  But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.

[Nathan]

Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.

That is the first thing Jesus preached.  At hand means near, right next to you.

So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.

We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind.  You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.

I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him.  I think AA is heavily based on that principle.  If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.

We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it.  What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have  . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so.  Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles?  That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all?  That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?

[Molly]

Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.

That is the first thing Jesus preached.  At hand means near, right next to you.

So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.

We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind.  You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.

I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him.  I think AA is heavily based on that principle.  If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.

We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it.  What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have  . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so.  Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles?  That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all?  That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?

No.

I'm trying to answer the OP where a list of behaviors was given and it was said these are not able to inherit the kingdom of God.  I'm just telling you what I think that means.  That doesn't mean I'm right.  What do you think it means?  For instance, why can't a drunkard inherit the kingdom of God?

A lot of suffering to themselves and others is caused by people practicing that list as a daily walk.

[Nathan]

Tight rope to walk here . . .don't want to give the wrong impressin that you can live any crazy way you choose and still enter into the kingdom . . .yet at the same time, I don't beleive those that "do" pursue the kingdom, yet have physcial weaknesses/addictions are going to be cut off from the kingdom they are pursuing as a result.  For me . .those that walk away from Christ to pursue their fleshly desires is one thing, but those that have been caught up in their fleshly desires, choose to commit themselves to Christ, yet still have some of the aftermath in their nature . . .those are the ones I'm talking about. 

I see 'as we go" in Christ, he's the one that gives us the strength not to fight against our addicitons, but to lay them down all together.  Only the flesh struggles with flesh.  If it's a fight . .think about it . . . This again isn't to say that it's okay to give in to all temptations.  It's saying that there's no condemnation for those who aren't fully free of the bondages those things brought on them after they chased them.

I guess what makes me wince is the idea that I can only enter into the kingdom after I clean myself up.  Or after "I" overcome this or that.  The only reason I overcome anything is because of the power of the Father living in me in the first place.  And if he's at work as He's abiding in me, then I can't help but see that the kingdom is just as accessable as  well.

[redhotmagma]

I think it has to do with serving more than one master.  I personally have had huge struggles with lust and substances.  They take up your time, you devote resources to them, they end up being an idol on your heart.  The other thing it does is create guilt, and lots of it, which puts you in hell (in your mind), you can't be in heaven and hell at the same time. 

Anything that takes precedence over loving God is an idol

[Nathan]

Let's take that one a step further . . .the more "effort" I put in to try to be more disciplined "against" something, strangely enough, the stronger the problem becomes.  Why?  Because even in my defense toward it, I'm still giving it my attention, my energy, my time . . .my authority.  But if we could just turn that attention from our own attempts, and just really and seriously pursue a state of worship . . .not by trying to keep Christian songs in our head . . .that may be a first step for some, but no, it's not "just" what you fill your head with .. .it's what you let out of our heart.  If I'm spending all my energy trying to fight against a weakness, I'm not worshiping from my heart. 

So are we to just give in to our desires?  Absolutely not . . . the way to over come them is to turn from them . . .but if you're "in" the moment of temptation . . .if you give this some serious thought, you'll see that by then, you're already passed where you should have turned off in the first place.  Being tempted and being "in the moment" of temptation, for me are two separate things.  I just don't know how to put it into words without making it more confusing. 

One is a passing thought . . .the other is a thought captured and now is lingering, pausing . . ."in" the moment . . .you're "pondering" the temptation.  By then, had you been in a state of worship (remember, not just singing songs in your head 24x7) the passing thought would have not stopped, it would have kept right on going.  It's kind of like some of our churches when it comes to sin . . .they get so sin conscious, they lose sight of the "be of good cheer" part of God's nature and everything becomes a list of do's and don'ts. 

Christ didn't come that we would have another law . . .he came that we would have abundant life.  Give him your attention and you get your authority back.

[Molly]

But if we could just turn that attention from our own attempts, and just really and seriously pursue a state of worship . . .

Isn't that what repent means? Turn-towards-God.

Because, once you are in the thrall of one of these serious problems, I don't think it can be overcome without him.

But, you have to remember Nathan--you are the pastor.  This is your job, not mine.

I do have one alcoholic friend in my life now, and it's very painful to watch.  And, it's clear to me that I cannot help except to encourage a reliance on God.

But like RHM said, You can't be in heaven and hell at the same time.

[redhotmagma]

Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom?  I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest.  It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies.  If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians.  Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up.  But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ. 

[Molly]

Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom?  I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest. It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies. If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians.  Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up.  But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.

:thumbsup:

[onlytruth]

Hi Nathan,None of us have totally partaken entirely of the kingdom only parts of it ,those places where we have died to the carnel are the places where we experience kingdom living.Jesus entered kingdom living when all the temptations had come and gone.
So for us to fully enter and end up doing what Jesus did we have to be reigning over the mortal.
Only the Father in his time will give us the strength to meet the challenges,so we must rest until then...He'll do it
blessings :icon_king:

[Molly]

9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

--1 Cor 6

[Nathan]

Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom?  I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest.  It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies.  If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians.  Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up.  But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.

Absolutely the same way I see it as well.  It comes with our maturity.  a baby Christian "may" find themselves seeing the deep things of God, but due to their maturity, they can't quite walk in what they're seeing.  Being born again enables us to see the kingdom, maturity allows us to discern what it is we're seeing and engage, and "call out the things which are not as though they are . . ."  Because in the kingdom . . .it's a finished stated.  On this earth . . .it's "current state".  Huge difference.  We can get so caught up in the current state around us that we're distracted from the finished state of life to which we are called.  We're called there so that "we" can become the conduit through which that which is finish can manifest in a realm that can only see that which isn't finished.

But yeah, there's an order . . .there's a reason why the holy of holies was constructed on the other side of all three veils.  It's a procession, only those who have come to realize "they" are the high priests can enter into this place.  And the truth is, not all beleivers will do it.  Only three disciples saw Jesus' glory and even then, "they" were instructed to tell no one . . .the other nine never saw what they saw.  They represent the first resurrection (3/disciples = 3 represents the resurrection . . .3rd day Jesus rose . . .) which only came to them due to their intimate relationship with Jesus.  Peter James and John . . .they were always the ones that were called out from the others whenever Jesus was about to go deep on them.

[eaglesway]

In similar fashion, Paul was caught up into the 3rd heaven, where he heard words it was not lawful for him to utter before men.

I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven(outer court)

I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil(holy place)

I write to you Fathers because you know Him who is form the beginning(holy of holies)

However,  believe the first resurrection is for all who remain faithful to what they have been given, even as the men who could not keep up with avids cmpnay received their share of the booty after the victory over Ziklag. Intimacy is about first love, not experience.

'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you. 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
(Rev 2:24-25)

[thinktank]

The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.

This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking.  I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall.  I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children.  He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences.  He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries.  He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word.  They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them.  It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons.  So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.

Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came.  Make any sense?  The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons.  And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle.  Only the son gets the inheritance.  I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.

The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general.  They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves.  They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting.  The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church.  They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .

Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate.  Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it.  But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.

I see where your coming from. But being nice is not the same as being rightoeus. A lot of people are much to hard hearted to care about nice things being done to them, what some people need is the majestic Holy fire of God bringing fear of his awesome presence, they need his fire and holy baptisms to smash down their false gods, idols, wicked evil, serpent, self arrogant, lying, wicked stubborn hearts, to realize that God rules in the heavens and on the earth and there is no other name that mankind might be saved exept through the blood of the lamb Yahushuah (yeshua) the only messiah and saviour of man. The time will come when God will send mighty prophets of holy fire that will humble the mighty and the strong and the wicked will bow to the rightoeus and follow them because of their mighty God. Some might think where is the grace?, it is found within the mystery of Gods workings with man, if God did not chastize and do evil, we would not be in this evil world at all and the bible would not be filled from book to book with God doing evil to his servants and His people and the world.

I think the church has instructed the body of christ but has done it, by relying on the flesh to change and has not taught about the holy spirit that does the work.

[shawn]

Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.

That is the first thing Jesus preached.  At hand means near, right next to you.

So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.

We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind.  You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.

I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him.  I think AA is heavily based on that principle.  If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.

We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it.  What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have  . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so.  Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles?  That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all?  That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?

No.

I'm trying to answer the OP where a list of behaviors was given and it was said these are not able to inherit the kingdom of God.  I'm just telling you what I think that means.  That doesn't mean I'm right.  What do you think it means?  For instance, why can't a drunkard inherit the kingdom of God?

A lot of suffering to themselves and others is caused by people practicing that list as a daily walk.

Gluttony is merely the over use of something.  I would consider any addiction an act of gluttony.  But, here in Ky I know many who I believe love the Lord use tobacco products.  It's not healthy, could be considered a form of gluttony but they are used none the less.  I don't believe this is as cut and dry as some within the church want to make it.

[shawn]

Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.

That is the first thing Jesus preached.  At hand means near, right next to you.

So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.

We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind.  You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.

I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him.  I think AA is heavily based on that principle.  If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.

We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].

2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it.  What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have  . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so.  Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles?  That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all?  That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?

I have really wrestled with tradional teachings of holiness and sin vs. what you teach.  There is a couple things that keep popping into my mind...

1) A good earthly dad knows each childs weaknesses and strengths.  He knows their maturity level.  He knows what knowledge they are ready for and that which they are not.  He reveals these things to them in steps.  He raises them within their own confines of maturity level...but always with a goal to raise a healthy, stable, spiritual adult capable of being a highly functioning adult.

Each one of us is in different places within our own maturity.  I can only speak for myself but he has revealed parts of his Kingdom and his nature to me in steps.  He even allowed me to have misperceptions.  I was allowed to grow within the confines of my maturity level even if I didn't have complete truth.  He allowed this because I wasn't ready.  When I loved the flesh more than I loved God I wasn't ready for these kinds of teachings.  I would have used it as an excuse to sin.  I know me...and I know this is how I would have used it.  So, my misunderstandings of his nature matured me within a limited structure...much like a play pen.  But, as I have matured I have noticed that those old teachings seem to do more to inhibit my growth than to help.  It sets me back more often than it benefits me.  Concentrating on white knuckling flesh issues expends a great deal of energy.  Not only that but it keeps the focus on me.  I see much truth in what you teach.  When I pursue God with all my heart, and place my focus on the Cross rather than on me and my struggles I struggle with the flesh less.  I see more growth.  And ultimately that is how I discern.

2) What you are teaching isn't for everyone at this particular moment in their lives.  Many see it as foo fooing sin...and validating our wrong behaviors.  I get that because I have struggled with that notion as well.  But, see the thing is this...if we truly love God more than our flesh then our field is ready if we are open.  I believe taking our focus off of the flesh and placing it into Kingdom prinicples will yield better fruit.  It takes the focus off of us...and places it where it rightly belongs...on God, Christ, the Cross and His Kingdom in our hearts.  The fruit of this thinking is actually less of a reaction to the flesh...not more. 

[jabcat]

yes, I also believe there's a balance.  Casting our care on Him, Him living and working through us, me decreasing so He may increase.  OTOH, "God forbid that I should sin so that grace may more abound".

That's what I personally seek - the balance, the "what works best day to day"...

[Molly]

You know, maybe he's just stating a fact.  Not that we have to try to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom, but that those in the kingdom will be righteous.  Assuming everyone will get there eventually, then everyone will be righteous eventually.

[shawn]

So . .there goes grace right out the window then.  All alcoholics . . . to hell with the lot of you.  God's love can't go beyond the bottle.

What if the thorn in Paul's side was an addiction to something?  Are you saying that because we have imperfections that we can't see the kingdom?  It's my understanding that it's not a condition of the mind that opens up our ability to see truth, but it's the condition of our heart.  If we're "receptive" to the things of God, he'll be generous in his giving even though not everyone may be delivered from their addiction. 

Sin isn't a dirty secret that you should be ashamed of.  God knows we are still in bodies of flesh and these bodies can become addicted . . .but I don't base my ability to enter into the kingdom on whether I have an addiction or not.  God can use donkey's chickens, fish, birds, even serpents to manifest his will . . .but he can't use people because of a weakness in their life?  Sounds a bit conforming to me. 

Just my 2 :2c:

This is where you and I will disagree a bit.  There is sin that is so cumbersome that walking in the Spirit is difficult...if not impossible.  As a recovering alcoholic, I only served and worshipped alcohol.  I tithed and bowed at it's alter.  There is no doubt in my mind that if I would have stayed in that state until death I would have not seen the Kingdom.  Spiritual living?  I knew nothing of the sort.  And mind you, I had confessed my sins, a tried to be a "good Christian" since my youth.  I got caught up and before I knew it I was in a desperate situation and only God could relieve me of my suffering.

Lets take this to an extreme...if I were a "person of faith" but had an addiction to taking life...and did so regularly would that keep me from seeing the Kingdom?  I would have to think so.  I think the Bible is pretty clear that sin can inhibit our ability to see with spiritual eyes.  That doesn't mean it's the end of the story but I believe there are very good reasons why the Bible teaches us about sin.

Where you and I will agree is where our focus should be as lovers of God and not lovers of the flesh.  It shouldn't be on us.

[jabcat]

"the kingdom is within you".  When Jesus originally said that, He was talking to the Jews pre-cross, and I believe, talking about a relationship, walking in true/pure fellowship with God.     I just looked at the context of this verse.  I wonder if there's any chance this isn't even primarily talking about "heaven and hell", but whether we're living in the "heavenlies" or encumbered with and therefor suffering the consequences of worldly/sinful living.    :dontknow:   Don't know, just wondering. 

[jabcat]

Credit for following excerpt to Perry (Joseph Benedict) Sills -  "What does [the Kingdom of God is at hand, or near to us]  really mean? In Hebrew, the words"to come near" means: "TO BE AT." Many Christians are confused about what the Kingdom of God, or of Heaven really means -- because of the poor Greek translations from Hebrew into Greek and then into English.

The Kingdom of God is at Hand, or near us. The word "near" in our English translations of the Scriptures, comes from a Greek word: "Engiken," which when translated means "has come near. It is important for us know these Hebrew differences in meaning, to help bring further understanding to our Lord Jesus Christ's teachings, both in the early Church and in todays Church.

If we translate that word NEAR back into Hebrew, we get an entirely different meaning and understanding. The Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word: Engiken, is: "KARAV," which means: "To come up to and be with," or "to be where something or someone else is." Why is this so important, you might ask?

Well, if we use the English or Greek word meaning NEAR, the implication is that the Kingdom of God is sometime in the future, not yet here. Yet the Hebrew word KARAV means the exact opposite. It give us the meaning: "IT IS HERE! IT HAS ARRIVED!" The Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God is always -- present tense -- it is NOW, according to the Hebrew usage and the understanding of the Jews at the time of Jesus and also within rabbinic usage even today.

The concept or understanding of "Kingdom," is perhaps one of the most important spiritual concepts in the New Testament. Language is an important factor in this vital understanding. In English and in the Greek, the word "Kingdom" is never used as a verb. It is always something to do with territory or a place. But, in Hebrew, the word "Kingdom" is ACTIVE. In fact, it is an action. It is God ruling and acting in the lives of men and women. It is those who are ruled by God, who have surrendered their lives to God, and who are keeping God's Word "abiding in them/living in them," THEY ARE -- "The Kingdom of God."

It is God working through us, in us and by us. We are the Kingdom of God, manifested into the physical world. The Kingdom of God manifests itself through us individually in our individual relationship with Him and then, collectively - when we gather together in Worship.

The Kingdom is where ever the power and glory of God is manifested, witnessed to, confessed publicly, jointly or together. It is where ever Christians are living surrendered lives in Jesus The Christ, the Son of the Living God -- THERE is His "Kingdom." 

[Molly]

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