First Corinthians 6:9-10 Unrighteous Will Not Inherit the Kingdom

[shawn]

"the kingdom is within you".  When Jesus originally said that, He was talking to the Jews pre-cross, and I believe, talking about a relationship, walking in true/pure fellowship with God.     I just looked at the context of this verse.  I wonder if there's any chance this isn't even primarily talking about "heaven and hell", but whether we're living in the "heavenlies" or encumbered with and therefor suffering the consequences of worldly/sinful living.    :dontknow:   Don't know, just wondering.

That is exactly what I believe.  When I speak about not seeing the Kingdom I mean an inability to serve and have fullness of relationship with Christ.  The Kingdom is now...not after death. 

[Molly]

I'd like to go a ..little.. further with what Jab said.

If I am standing in the kingdom at any given moment, whoever is with me there at that moment is righteous.

It doesn't mean we are both there all the time.  Or that we are both righteous all the time.

I can remember looking at a doctor, for instance, and thinking I don't care what this man does in his everyday life, but today he is going to be the righteous Christ who saves my baby.  And, he was lol.

We can call out to the Christ in each other if we stand in the kingdom to do it.

[shawn]

Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom?  I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest.  It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies.  If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians.  Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up.  But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.

I know this is directed at Nathan but I would like to give my opinion.  I think there is a difference in being saved and inheriting the Kingdom.  I think it's possible to confess your sins, be genuinely remorseful yet walk in the natural...seeing with natural eyes.  In that state, it's all about us...cleaning ourselves up...trying to live right.  But, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves.  ex. Am I good enough?  I am right with God today because I didn't lust today.  Living in the spirit isn't about cleaning yourself up...the cleaning up happens as a result of living in the spirit...accepting your inheritance.  Do you know you have inherited this Kingdom?  Realize who you are in Christ and take hold of God's promises.  You are morally bankrupt...just like myself.  But, in Christ we are mighty...capable of moving mountains.  This isn't about your strength.  It's about yielding to the process and seeking relationship.  Trust God...he knew your struggles before he made you...they haven't taken him by surprise.  You haven't shocked and bewildered God.

We have a tendency to make this about us when the focus should be on the Cross.

[Molly]

But, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves.

And, also, a lack of belief.

Such as when Peter jumps out of the boat and starts walking on water--then he sees the wind and the waves and loses faith and starts to sink.


Matthew 14:31
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

[shawn]

But, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves.

And, also, a lack of belief.

Such as when Peter jumps out of the boat and starts walking on water--then he sees the wind and the waves and loses faith and starts to sink.


Matthew 14:31
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

I couldn't agree more.

[redhotmagma]

Shawn I totally agree, I think the key to the kingdom is not I but Him.

[eaglesway]

He that overcomes will inherit all things and  he will be a son to me and I will be his father....

inheritance rights went to jacob not esau, because esau did not value the birthright over his appetite

Our birthright is being transformed into the image of Christ..... many sons unto glory

Inheriting the authority of God is a sonship blessing, "For everyone he called he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son"

Esau's judgment was the loss of the inheritance

If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:14-15)

it is not about eternal life, it is about being seated with Christ in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus wherein are all spiritual blessings ..."caught up to His throne"

Therefore set not your affection on things below, but rather set your affection on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God

Today, if you hear His voice..... Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches

[Nathan]

The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.

This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking.  I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall.  I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children.  He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences.  He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries.  He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word.  They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them.  It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons.  So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.

Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came.  Make any sense?  The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons.  And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle.  Only the son gets the inheritance.  I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.

The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general.  They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves.  They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting.  The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church.  They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .

Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate.  Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it.  But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.

I see where your coming from. But being nice is not the same as being rightoeus. A lot of people are much to hard hearted to care about nice things being done to them, what some people need is the majestic Holy fire of God bringing fear of his awesome presence, they need his fire and holy baptisms to smash down their false gods, idols, wicked evil, serpent, self arrogant, lying, wicked stubborn hearts, to realize that God rules in the heavens and on the earth and there is no other name that mankind might be saved exept through the blood of the lamb Yahushuah (yeshua) the only messiah and saviour of man. The time will come when God will send mighty prophets of holy fire that will humble the mighty and the strong and the wicked will bow to the rightoeus and follow them because of their mighty God. Some might think where is the grace?, it is found within the mystery of Gods workings with man, if God did not chastize and do evil, we would not be in this evil world at all and the bible would not be filled from book to book with God doing evil to his servants and His people and the world.

I think the church has instructed the body of christ but has done it, by relying on the flesh to change and has not taught about the holy spirit that does the work.

For me . . .the "being nice" is the fruit of God working "in" us.  The "self" part of us wants the vengeance.  Because we see others that seem cold, hard and brittle, our conclusion then is that if we bring a little fire to them, God would melt that hardness away.  I know this because I was once a great supporter of it . . . 'we" called it warfare.  But then when I found God calling us out of the warfare and into the plowshares . . .that also changed the dellivery of how I did things.  Calling fire down on others is still working in Old Covenant thinking actually.

There's even a passage in the New Testament where James and John wanted to do this same thing.  Jesus was "on his way" to Jerusalem but in route, the plan was to stop off at a Samaritan village . . .problem was, when the guys that he sent out to prepare a place for their stop over returned with a negative report . . .the Samaritans seemed to be put off that they were considered as a stop-over rather than a destination . . .but James and John were ready to call fire down on them for their rejection . . .and they got rebuked for it.

Luke 9
54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?  55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.  56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village

Now . . .I didn't say everything I said because I knew Scripture said it.  I said what I said because that's what I believe is His Word written in me . . .and I then remembered this story, so I dug it up and found that it "affirms" in me what my eyes were already seeing.  I share "this' part because I truly beleive this is how we're to read all of Scripture . . .not as proof, but as affirmation of what the Spirit is revealing to us "inwardly".

[Nathan]

You know, maybe he's just stating a fact.  Not that we have to try to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom, but that those in the kingdom will be righteous.  Assuming everyone will get there eventually, then everyone will be righteous eventually.

Now, I think you may be on to something.  And what is it that makes us righteous?  I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do.  I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are".  I'm righteous because he declares that I am.  "But what of my weaknesses and failures?"  For me, righteousness is not perfection.  As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things.  No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so.  But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected.  That's why grace is such a powerful thing.  It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him. 

The old addictions will fall away and with His strength, new addictions of the negative nature will never happen again.  In the eyes of the Father who's throne is in the kingdom, we are already righteous . . .that's why 1 John 3 can say that we no longer sin . . .because when you are in the ascended place looking upon this place, all you see is that which you are in.  Just like when you buy a red car . . .you then notice how many or few red cars are out there.

On the reverse, for those who observe each other "from" this earthly perspective . . .religious or not . . .where they are is what they'll see.  If all I see is sin in others, it's because I myself, am obsessed with sin and this, I do believe, is where MANY churches come into play . . .they are extremely sin conscious.  They claim God is real and all that, but they're way more sin conscious than they are grace conscious.  It all depends on where we are as to what it is we can see.

[shawn]

I am being fed today.   :thumbsup:

[Nathan]

But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection.  It's a double edged sword on several levels.  I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places.  But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.

What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them.  They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father.  It applies differently to each individual.  There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God.  Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?

[Molly]

And what is it that makes us righteous?  I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do.  I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are".  I'm righteous because he declares that I am.  "But what of my weaknesses and failures?"  For me, righteousness is not perfection.  As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things.  No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so.  But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected.  That's why grace is such a powerful thing.  It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him. 

Actually, I think it goes further than that.  Perfection means completion, and when we are joined to him we are complete.  Therefore, we are justified by him and perfected by virtue of our relationship/unity with him.  It's not about us, it's about Him.  We cannot be complete [perfected] without him.  But, with him, we are perfect by definition.

...let us go on unto perfection.. [Heb 6:1]

"perfection"
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).

[Nathan]

amen Molly!! :winkgrin:

[Taffy]

 :icon_flower:

Good word Guys - :icon_flower:

[shawn]

And what is it that makes us righteous?  I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do.  I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are".  I'm righteous because he declares that I am.  "But what of my weaknesses and failures?"  For me, righteousness is not perfection.  As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things.  No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so.  But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected.  That's why grace is such a powerful thing.  It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him. 

Actually, I think it goes further than that.  Perfection means completion, and when we are joined to him we are complete.  Therefore, we are justified by him and perfected by virtue of our relationship/unity with him.  It's not about us, it's about Him.  We cannot be complete [perfected] without him.  But, with him, we are perfect by definition.

...let us go on unto perfection.. [Heb 6:1]

"perfection"
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).

I would completely agree.

[shawn]

But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection.  It's a double edged sword on several levels.  I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places.  But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.

What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them.  They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father.  It applies differently to each individual.  There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God.  Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?

I don't think people have to clean up their act to walk with him.  I do think though that until sin has brought us death that we will not see principles of the Kingdom.  As long as we love the flesh more than we love God, we will see with natural eyes.  Until, we have been broken by sin that season in our lives isn't over.  I believe the sin season brings some perspective...that nothing matters as much as our relationship with God.

I think sometimes we are talking about two seperate sets of believers.

A) Person who has confessed their sins, believes in Jesus as their savior but desires the world, the flesh, and their will over walking with Christ.  I believe this person will walk in the natural until a transformation takes place.  That transformation often takes place at the hand of pain...usually caused by themself.  Sin must take it's toll in order for them to evolve into person B.

B) Person who still has addictions, issues, brokeness, vices etc but has been broken by their own sin.  They had a revelation that nothing in this world compares to the love of our Savior.  While they may still struggle, they love the Lord, walk with the Lord, and they will see growth.  They are placed on that path of sanctification.  While they will likely stumble along the way, they are no longer under the power of sin.  Pleasures of the flesh are no longer their first love, it can no longer blind them to the principles of the Kingdom.

That is the way I see it today.  Ask me next week and I may see it completely different.   :bigGrin:

[Nathan]

Extremely well said bro . . . nicely done.

[eaglesway]

I believe God forsees all of our completion as an aspect of His fellowship and love for us- and also every creature under heaven. We have an opportunity to realize the full effect of that love and spread it to others.... that is the purpose and effect of sanctification, which is of the heart first....later subduing the flesh through the multiplication of grace and the overwhelming power of His love for us BEFORE we are sanctified. When sanctification is read as growth in the love of God, rather than simply overcoming the sins of the flesh (performance), then we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds.

[thinktank]

But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection.  It's a double edged sword on several levels.  I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places.  But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.

What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them.  They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father.  It applies differently to each individual.  There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God.  Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?

I agree with you that there is no cookie cutter approach that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support, but only God knows which direction to point the pastor or friend to the correct advice, but just like Jobs friends, who when you read their opinion, a wise man would say they spoke wisely, but yet God said they sinned and need to repent for misjudging job. Sometimes weird events such as Jobs case happens and our usual tactics don't work.

But generally throughout the bible I believe  a person must live holy lives if they are to truly live in power and victory, if they are still struggling in sin then they have not yet lived in true power or victory, as long as we strive for mastery over our sins, then we will seek God and he will help us overcome, either instantly or a slow period of time such as the apostle Paul, who seems to have experienced both, but if love our sins, we will not forsake them or ask God to remove them.
I think that's why only the early church had the power of miracles in abundance, because the people live holy lives, but I do sense that the church today, is begining to forsake sin, traddition and embrace the ways of God fuller than they have for decades, the book of Daniel days that at the end, His people will do exploits, so if the end is about 100 years from now, then it means God is preparing proper teachings to preach the gospel to all nations.

[Nathan]

um . . .the idea that we can see more manifestations of God's power "if" we live holy lives . . .it seems to put off the intimate relationship in place of disciplinary methods . . .the reason  . .for me . . .that I would live a holy life would not be so the power of God would manifest, I beleive it's because the power of God "is" manifesting in me that gives me the ability to live in holiness . .both the holiness in my life and the visible manifestations of God's power are from the same source, not from an outward lifestyle, but from an inward alignment.

I do think holiness plays a role in our lives, and I also think the miracles are connected to holiness, but not "because" of the holiness of our life.  In fact, I think living  a life of holiness is a miracle just as great as a lame guy getting up and walking . . .

You also said . . .
that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support
and that was what I was sorta responding to . . .the idea that "I" have the right to rebuke another is a bit of an overstatement I think.  There are only "two" classes of individuals that I would feel even partially comfortable with rebuking at all.  One is . . .me.  Two is . . my spiritual sons . . .outside of that . . .not so much. 

Should I come to you and rebuke you for something I disagree with . .what am I really doing?  Am I not trying to conform you to live your relationship with the Father according to "my" standards of what that relationship should be?

[thinktank]

um . . .the idea that we can see more manifestations of God's power "if" we live holy lives . . .it seems to put off the intimate relationship in place of disciplinary methods . . .the reason  . .for me . . .that I would live a holy life would not be so the power of God would manifest, I beleive it's because the power of God "is" manifesting in me that gives me the ability to live in holiness . .both the holiness in my life and the visible manifestations of God's power are from the same source, not from an outward lifestyle, but from an inward alignment.

I do think holiness plays a role in our lives, and I also think the miracles are connected to holiness, but not "because" of the holiness of our life.  In fact, I think living  a life of holiness is a miracle just as great as a lame guy getting up and walking . . .

You also said . . .
that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support
and that was what I was sorta responding to . . .the idea that "I" have the right to rebuke another is a bit of an overstatement I think.  There are only "two" classes of individuals that I would feel even partially comfortable with rebuking at all.  One is . . .me.  Two is . . my spiritual sons . . .outside of that . . .not so much. 

Should I come to you and rebuke you for something I disagree with . .what am I really doing?  Am I not trying to conform you to live your relationship with the Father according to "my" standards of what that relationship should be?

You have raised a challenging question and or point. I can see the attraction towards living as peaceably as possible with my fellows, without ruffling their feathers. But in this world, conflict will happen, even between husband and wife. If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow? and isn't the true reason, the cause that people do not rebuke at all, is fear? Fear of their opinion, fear of offending them etc. If the rebuke is done with good intentions and a right spirit, then good should prevail.
Jesus pointed out the mistakes of people more than any of the prophets. Often people say that Jesus is the loveliest, but from what I read I find that Jesus is the most harsh out of all the prophets and he represents truth and love.

[Nathan]

Ah, but if you look more closely at the context through when Jesus did all of that rebuking . . .it was "after" others tried to corner him, trick him, oppose him . . . what he did was responsive to a religious force that had already confronted him, not to people in general.

You mentioned . . .
If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow?

Two things . . .maybe three, not sure yet . . .One, I don't see Scripture as something that is to be used as my justifcation to rebuke "others".  I believe the message in it is to bring reproof to "me" inwardly.  What "you" choose to do is up to you  but I do beleive there are effective and extremely ineffective ways to apply the passages.  Aiming the sword at someone else for their growth, to me, means that I should be stabbing them to life . . .by using it as an encouragment, a strenghtening tool . . .not as something where I use the verses to cut down other people or to prove they are wrong and I am right.

Two . . . doesn't anyone ever wonder . . .if God knows all things, and what God knows Jesus would also come into knowing . . .that when he chose Judas, he not only knew that Judas would betray him, but he also knew that Judas had greed issues as well.  And yet Jesus still chose him.  Now, I can understand that as to Judas betraying Jesus . . .that "had" to happen as Jesus was to be a sacrifice.  But the thing that I find still intriguing is that in the 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry, not one time do we ever see Jesus pulling Judas aside and "rebuking" him for his greedy ways . . .in fact, not only did he not rebuke him, he put him in charge of the treasury . . .doesn't that strike you as odd?

If we are truly to be out there bringing correction to those whom we see where correction is needed . . .the general Christian population . . .then why do we not see this kind of correction taking place in Jesus ministry?  Jesus did rebuke the Pharisees and religious leaders, but it was due to their religious mindsets, he rebuked Peter because he became an adversary toward the purpose of him dying . . .and he rebuked Peter  when he deafened the high priest's servant in his defensive use of the sword.

The disciples where his spirutal sons . . . he had the authority to rebuke them as a Father would a son . . .but you didn't see him rebuking the general followers so much . . .

Thirdly . . .how will people grow?  They will grow when they lay their heads down and let their hearts follow the sound of life "from within."  Remember the kingdom is not what we can observe, obtain, or comprehend through human effort . . .but it's "within" us . . .the same place where God's word is now being written. 

Letting a child fall down a couple times will allow the child to mature into balance much more effectively than to never allow them to fall at all. 

[thinktank]

Ah, but if you look more closely at the context through when Jesus did all of that rebuking . . .it was "after" others tried to corner him, trick him, oppose him . . . what he did was responsive to a religious force that had already confronted him, not to people in general.

TT

So do you agree that it is ok to rebuke people who challenge or confront?

You mentioned . . .
If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow?

Two things . . .maybe three, not sure yet . . .One, I don't see Scripture as something that is to be used as my justifcation to rebuke "others".  I believe the message in it is to bring reproof to "me" inwardly.  What "you" choose to do is up to you  but I do beleive there are effective and extremely ineffective ways to apply the passages.  Aiming the sword at someone else for their growth, to me, means that I should be stabbing them to life . . .by using it as an encouragment, a strenghtening tool . . .not as something where I use the verses to cut down other people or to prove they are wrong and I am right.

TT
To be clear here when I mean rebuke people I do not mean, going out there and pointing out peoples flaws, there are plenty enough of those people in the world. I am talking about Godly rebuke and instruction, such as how Paul rebuked Peter(Peter being told off again, I'm begining to wonder whether he was just a target to pick on, while Judas is robbing people, complaining, murdering God and gets scott free)

Two . . . doesn't anyone ever wonder . . .if God knows all things, and what God knows Jesus would also come into knowing . . .that when he chose Judas, he not only knew that Judas would betray him, but he also knew that Judas had greed issues as well.  And yet Jesus still chose him.  Now, I can understand that as to Judas betraying Jesus . . .that "had" to happen as Jesus was to be a sacrifice.  But the thing that I find still intriguing is that in the 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry, not one time do we ever see Jesus pulling Judas aside and "rebuking" him for his greedy ways . . .in fact, not only did he not rebuke him, he put him in charge of the treasury . . .doesn't that strike you as odd?

TT
Yes, but heres a thought I had, Is all things written in the texts?. If I were a disciple I would pray that many of the things I did were not written down. Pastors often talk about Peter denying Jesus 3 times, whenever the topic of forgivness is raised, they say, how terrible a sin Peter did and God forgave him. I often think that this is hardly the worst sin given the situation he was in, the other disciples were not even attending, and that Peter and the other disciples sinned far more than what is recorded in the texts, that they needed to be forgiven many times not just once.

If we are truly to be out there bringing correction to those whom we see where correction is needed . . .the general Christian population . . .then why do we not see this kind of correction taking place in Jesus ministry?  Jesus did rebuke the Pharisees and religious leaders, but it was due to their religious mindsets, he rebuked Peter because he became an adversary toward the purpose of him dying . . .and he rebuked Peter  when he deafened the high priest's servant in his defensive use of the sword.

So rebuking is done, even by Jesus. The apostle Paul also rebuked the church because they were still having to drink milk. But I realize that some people are over zealous and are constantly rebuking, it can be dreary and tiresome experience, it was like this for me when I first came here at this forum, but thankfully the fingerpointing came to an end by the grace and power of God.

The disciples where his spirutal sons . . . he had the authority to rebuke them as a Father would a son . . .but you didn't see him rebuking the general followers so much . . .

So in the context of the church, the people usually have a pastor to sheperd them and to rebuke them. I guess its a matter of trust between pastor and sheep, as some pastors abuse their authority.

Thirdly . . .how will people grow?  They will grow when they lay their heads down and let their hearts follow the sound of life "from within."  Remember the kingdom is not what we can observe, obtain, or comprehend through human effort . . .but it's "within" us . . .the same place where God's word is now being written. 

Letting a child fall down a couple times will allow the child to mature into balance much more effectively than to never allow them to fall at all.

[eaglesway]

My  :2c:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2Ti 4:2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)

I don't think the issue is so much " To rebuke, or Not to rebuke". I think it is, those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God. Walking in His ways, we can declare His counsel and reprove the adversaries from a place of brokeness.
I think the word speaks for itself pretty clearly. "Ye kno not what spirit ye are of" applies pretty well. The problem is usually that the peole with logs in their eyes are trying to operate on people with specks in their eyes because they "Kno neither the word nor the power of God"..... in other words, God,s priorities are still a mystery to them. They apply the word in a wrong spirit to others instead of the right spirit, which is first towards me. I have a saying, "You cannot rightly divide the word of truth until you have been rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit".

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

His eyes are like flames of fire, consuming the chaff, purifying the soul.

[Nathan]

My  :2c:

For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)

Gal 6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2Ti 4:2  Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)

I don't think the issue is so much " To rebuke, or Not to rebuke". I think it is, those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God. Walking in His ways, we can declare His counsel and reprove the adversaries from a place of brokeness.
I think the word speaks for itself pretty clearly. "Ye kno not what spirit ye are of" applies pretty well. The problem is usually that the peole with logs in their eyes are trying to operate on people with specks in their eyes because they "Kno neither the word nor the power of God"..... in other words, God,s priorities are still a mystery to them. They apply the word in a wrong spirit to others instead of the right spirit, which is first towards me. I have a saying, "You cannot rightly divide the word of truth until you have been rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit".

For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)

His eyes are like flames of fire, consuming the chaff, purifying the soul.

You may have started with your  :2c:, but God increased your message to a hundred fold by the time you were done!!  Great post.