I Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (NKJV)
Assertion; You must be righteous to go to heaven. Some are deceived, but anyone doing these sins will never be allowed into heaven.
Hi;
The assertion about needing to be righteous is quite correct. What makes us righteous is often not explained correctly. There are no efforts by anyone that will earn their own salvation because the complete works of Christ makes us righteous.
Being "In Christ" takes away the desires of the flesh bit by bit until they fade into oblivion. His grace and mercy and position of authority set us free fron the sense of failure which impedes our growth.
Heaven is a new creation and a place of peace and righteousness ,so there would be no lusts of the flesh in the equation.
Quote from: Ross on November 25, 2010, 10:58:55 AM
Hi;
The assertion about needing to be righteous is quite correct. What makes us righteous is often not explained correctly. There are no efforts by anyone that will earn their own salvation because the complete works of Christ makes us righteous.
Being "In Christ" takes away the desires of the flesh bit by bit until they fade into oblivion. His grace and mercy and position of authority set us free fron the sense of failure which impedes our growth.
Heaven is a new creation and a place of peace and righteousness ,so there would be no lusts of the flesh in the equation.
1Co 6:11 And these things
some you were; but you washed yourselves, but you were separated, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, an in the spirit of the God of us.
Note: This verse was posted in two threads. See here:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_verses_used_assert_not_all_will_be_saved/1_corinthians_6910_unrighteous_wont_inherit_kingdom_9009.0.html
Perhaps you can merge the threads...
Concerning 1 Cor.6:9 Go on to vs. 11. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. My question here is, how do you know for a fact there will be those who are brought to Christ either late in life, after much sinning, or, after death? God is fair, is he not? Did he make us all to be with him, or, in his divine plan, did he make a ton of people just to torture?
I think there is a misunderstanding that the kingdom of heaven and heaven are one and the same . . .I believe they are quite different. One is the operational principles governing spiritual realms, the other is the spirit realm itself. Being born again is what enables me to be able to "see" the kingdom .. . it removes the scales from our eyes, it removes the veil from our minds. But it's not heaven in and of itself.
First of all the kingdom refers to the system of Law followers that have been promised this from the very beginning of Law, " the Kingdom",
When a believer in the New Life IN Christ lives by the Heart tugs of Jesus Christ, There is no Law ( Bible Law ), Human Kind will know what is Just and Right. And not to make ones self right with God because as of JC Raising From the Dead, ALL Have """ Been """ Saved already.... The Devil is bound and the new order Has Begun.........
that confuses me . . .if the kingdom is a system of law followers, then how does that fit in with "The kingdom doesn't come by observation, the kingdom of God is in you . . ."?
My last post is only for the seekers and I can't give you all the answers because the 99.9 % won't believe it anyway. If you are ready to hear it, it will be revealed "Too You" By God
Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 on January 21, 2011, 11:43:52 PM
First of all the kingdom refers to the system of Law followers that have been promised this from the very beginning of Law, " the Kingdom",
When a believer in the New Life IN Christ lives by the Heart tugs of Jesus Christ, There is no Law ( Bible Law ), Human Kind will know what is Just and Right. And not to make ones self right with God because as of JC Raising From the Dead, ALL Have """ Been """ Saved already.... The Devil is bound and the new order Has Begun.........
:thumbsup:
The kingdom is a troop. The body of Christ.
A nation of Priests!
I have to agree molly, altho I would like to add that of another post added to this one too, is that Angels are beings walking on earth every day and these messengers (preists) can be bringers of death/Law or bringers of Life/ Teaching the new Life IN Christ. examples are this....If a Minister of any church stands up ever week and preaches that you have to follow all the laws in the bible (10 commandments) and the rest, He is teaching the people the message of death, and he is not a bringer of Life....
why do you say the 10 commandments bring death!
The man asked Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life.
Jesus said "you know the commandments?
Yes I observe since my youth
"Yo you do well my brutha, but you lack one thing, follow me"
I am not a fan of rules, but if you go through each of the commandments I find that most people would agree with them.
Who thinks that divorce or adultery is a good thing :dontknow:
Even a thief knows that stealing is wrong and often has a guilty concious.
Who likes nosy neighbours?
The only one christians seem to have a problem with is the sabbath day, which is strange because you would think that people would enjoy a day of rest :dontknow: Also obeying the sabbath day, brings a special protection from God, supernatural deliverance from evil forces and mistakes, so if you want God to have a greater influence in your life, look to the sabbath day and make sure this day is kept holy and give honour to God.
:2c:
Quote from: thinktank on January 23, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
why do you say the 10 commandments bring death!
The man asked Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life.
Jesus said "you know the commandments?
Yes I observe since my youth
"Yo you do well my brutha, but you lack one thing, follow me"
I am not a fan of rules, but if you go through each of the commandments I find that most people would agree with them.
Who thinks that divorce or adultery is a good thing :dontknow:
Even a thief knows that stealing is wrong and often has a guilty concious.
Who likes nosy neighbours?
The only one christians seem to have a problem with is the sabbath day, which is strange because you would think that people would enjoy a day of rest :dontknow: Also obeying the sabbath day, brings a special protection from God, supernatural deliverance from evil forces and mistakes, so if you want God to have a greater influence in your life, look to the sabbath day and make sure this day is kept holy and give honour to God.
:2c:
What truly brings death is the attempt to save yourself through works and obedience. This individual might look at their walk as a check list of do's and don'ts. They might mouth the right words about Jesus. The question is this, has this person ever accepted by faith that Christ has died for their sins? If Christ died for our sins and we are truly living in grace and freedom then why is it that we still live by the Law? Why are we still discussing things like the Sabbath? Romans 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
When people discuss the Law bringing death it's because it does on multiple levels. First, the Law brought knowledge where ignorance reigned. Knowledge of right and wrong brought death through judgment. Second, Christians who live by the Law are trying to save themselves...check list religion. We now follow what God has written on our hearts. Obedience is a natural extension of relationship not a replacement. Works are a natural outflowing of relationship. The focus shouldn't be on controlling the flesh, doing good, feeding the poor etc. The focus is loving Christ. If we love Christ and walk in relationship good works and spiritual living will flow out of us. Relationship with our fellow man will be restored. The flesh will be controlled not by human "will power" but from heavenly power given freely through the Holy Spirit.
Quote from: shawn on January 23, 2011, 09:21:00 PM
What truly brings death is the attempt to save yourself through works and obedience. This individual might look at their walk as a check list of do's and don'ts. They might mouth the right words about Jesus. The question is this, has this person ever accepted by faith that Christ has died for their sins? If Christ died for our sins and we are truly living in grace and freedom then why is it that we still live by the Law? Why are we still discussing things like the Sabbath? Romans 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
When people discuss the Law bringing death it's because it does on multiple levels. First, the Law brought knowledge where ignorance reigned. Knowledge of right and wrong brought death through judgment. Second, Christians who live by the Law are trying to save themselves...check list religion. We now follow what God has written on our hearts. Obedience is a natural extension of relationship not a replacement. Works are a natural outflowing of relationship. The focus shouldn't be on controlling the flesh, doing good, feeding the poor etc. The focus is loving Christ. If we love Christ and walk in relationship good works and spiritual living will flow out of us. Relationship with our fellow man will be restored. The flesh will be controlled not by human "will power" but from heavenly power given freely through the Holy Spirit.
:clapping: :ty: :first:
After posting my cheering section for Shawn's excellent post, I realized I was "chatting" in this section that Gary just wants UR "gems" posted in. If you guys want to go ahead and discuss this a bit go ahead, and later on I'll split it out into a more "discussion" area. It's fine.
Quote from: thinktank on January 23, 2011, 08:56:47 PM
why do you say the 10 commandments bring death! All 640 Laws if broken ( Transgressed ) Is Sin and Sin's end result brings death to the follower of Law
The man asked Jesus what must I do to inherit eternal life. ( A member of JC's Belief system of Law followers, before Paul brought in a New system of Grace with out Law )
Jesus said "you know the commandments?
Yes I observe since my youth
"Yo you do well my brutha, but you lack one thing, follow me"
I am not a fan of rules, but if you go through each of the commandments I find that most people would agree with them. If you have Laws that make you right with God, Then More Power TO YOU.
I need no Law to Live IN Christ , I was dragged in kicking when Grace was founded...
Who thinks that divorce or adultery is a good thing :don't know: you should check the law on that one,
Even a thief knows that stealing is wrong and often has a guilty concious.
Who likes nosy neighbours? More Laws you chose to follow
The only one christians seem to have a problem with is the sabbath day, which is strange because you would think that people would enjoy a day of rest :don't'know: Also obeying the sabbath day, brings a special protection from God, supernatural deliverance from evil forces and mistakes, so if you want God to have a greater influence in your life, look to the sabbath day and make sure this day is kept holy and give honour to God. More of a personal belief system I don't condone....
:2c:
Sorry thinkthank, I truly don't want to offend your system. So lets just say we have different systems... and be friends In God's holy Son's Name The Christ
I thought you were thinking on those lines, I was going to say something, but then I thought I'd test you and see where your coming from.
Who likes nosy neighbours? Novus - More Laws you chose to follow
It keeps me from trouble
Who thinks that divorce or adultery is a good thing :don't know: Novus :you should check the law on that one,
TT:Or perhaps check with their wife/husband :icon_joker:
The only one christians seem to have a problem with is the sabbath day, which is strange because you would think that people would enjoy a day of rest :don't'know: Also obeying the sabbath day, brings a special protection from God, supernatural deliverance from evil forces and mistakes, so if you want God to have a greater influence in your life, look to the sabbath day and make sure this day is kept holy and give honour to God. More of a personal belief system I don't condone...
True it was a more about faith, it has been a blessing to me when observing the sabath, by faith I believe it has protected me from much stress and trouble, I don't want it to be be made into a law and I don't think it will, until Christ comes back to rule in Israel but that's another story, but I am thankfull that God has allowed in these days Saturday and sunday to generally be non work days, church attendance on Sunday and for a day of rest on the sabbath day.
Sorry thinkthank, I truly don't want to offend your system. So lets just say we have different systems... and be friends In God's holy Son's Name The Christ
Ok, but if you break these 10 commandments regularly, I don't think we can be friends for long :icon_joker:
Quote from: thinktank on January 24, 2011, 01:29:35 AM
I thought you were thinking on those lines, I was going to say something, but then I thought I'd test you and see where your coming from.
Who likes nosy neighbours? Novus - More Laws you chose to follow
It keeps me from trouble
Who thinks that divorce or adultery is a good thing :don't know: Novus :you should check the law on that one,
TT:Or perhaps check with their wife/husband :icon_joker:
The only one christians seem to have a problem with is the sabbath day, which is strange because you would think that people would enjoy a day of rest :don't'know: Also obeying the sabbath day, brings a special protection from God, supernatural deliverance from evil forces and mistakes, so if you want God to have a greater influence in your life, look to the sabbath day and make sure this day is kept holy and give honour to God. More of a personal belief system I don't condone...
True it was a more about faith, it has been a blessing to me when observing the sabath, by faith I believe it has protected me from much stress and trouble, I don't want it to be be made into a law and I don't think it will, until Christ comes back to rule in Israel but that's another story, but I am thankfull that God has allowed in these days Saturday and sunday to generally be non work days, church attendance on Sunday and for a day of rest on the sabbath day.
Sorry thinkthank, I truly don't want to offend your system. So lets just say we have different systems... and be friends In God's holy Son's Name The Christ
Ok, but if you break these 10 commandments regularly, I don't think we can be friends for long :icon_joker: Thats ok because I don't have friends that practic the Religions of Man that are Law followers, Oh ya, all 640 laws have to be followed, or your a sinner, Law braker, try this on for size... The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ). and some virgins start bleeding at 9 years old, I don't ever plan on being friends with people that follow the rules of Law, Bible Law. I will always try to lead them out of the law INTO The Christ. God's Son through Love but when there ready they will be ready, and I can't make that twinkle of a moment happen for them.....
Thats ok because I don't have friends that practic the Religions of Man that are Law followers, Oh ya, all 640 laws have to be followed, or your a sinner, Law braker, try this on for size... The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ). and some virgins start bleeding at 9 years old, I don't ever plan on being friends with people that follow the rules of Law, Bible Law. I will always try to lead them out of the law INTO The Christ. God's Son through Love but when there ready they will be ready, and I can't make that twinkle of a moment happen for them.....
Novus
I'm affraid I don't know much about the mosiac laws, some of them such as the one you describe, seem more interested in laws rather than grace and blessings. But to me the 10 commandments or 12 even, are based on love, and that is what the love of Christ does to a person. So if a person comes to Christ and continues to commit adultery, steals, worships baal, tresspasses against their neighbour, then according to the scriptures, possibly they do not have christ in their hearts and simply confess him with their tongues but their hearts are far from him. I know from personal experience that when one comes to Christ and does sin, God, deals with a christian more severely and punishes them until they repent. The things they get away with as a non christian will no longer apply and God will punish the christian until they repent, because the person wants to be set free and God does evil to them for their benefit, even though the chastisment is grevious, joy cometh in the morning.
But if they name christ and they get away with doing evil things, it is questionnable whether they are Gods, it might and more often be the case that God's grace covers their weaknesses, but if they don't get punished in some shape or form, then it is a possibility that their faith is in vain and only christian in name only.
e.g a heroin addict comes to christ, but they are still addicted, Christ loves them and so might punish them with poverty to stop them buying drugs. Another heroin addict comes to christ, but they are pretending to name christ for the people sake, they continue to buy heroin and seem to have no problems at all, God is not in their lives to punish them(bless them also :winkgrin:), because they do not want him there.
:2c:
Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.
ThinkThank, I have to bow out of this one because I am not a follower of Mans Man made Religion ( Mommy churches Catholic, Prod, Baptist, Mormon etc............ )
I will never go back to the 10 Commandments as a guide, when I have a Oneness With God that talks to me every day every second, so I can't help you see what I am talking about because it isn't time yet.
No worries, God deals with each of us as individuals, we can't just all drop everything and follow the commandments. I know that it has taken me years, to get this far, God leads us from whatever position we are in and progresses us from there. God wants all of us to progress in Christ, some take more time than others. You might be way beyond the commandments and do great works, exploits for Christ, but as for me I am currently focusing on the commandments and my relationship with God.
I don't know what mans made religion has got do with though, what I wrote is based on the scriptures and practical wisdom, I have barely even entered into a church, I'm straight from the streets or rather, straight from the field, I doubt I'd be welcome in a church , I think too much :laughing7:
Quote from: thinktank on January 24, 2011, 03:12:22 AM
No worries, God deals with each of us as individuals, we can't just all drop everything and follow the commandments. I know that it has taken me years, to get this far, God leads us from whatever position we are in and progresses us from there. God wants all of us to progress in Christ, some take more time than others. You might be way beyond the commandments and do great works, exploits for Christ, but as for me I am currently focusing on the commandments and my relationship with God.
I don't know what mans made religion has got do with though, what I wrote is based on the scriptures and practical wisdom, I have barely even entered into a church, I'm straight from the streets or rather, straight from the field, I doubt I'd be welcome in a church , I think too much :laughing7:
You bring up a terrific point. We each have seasons of revelation and maturity. We all are on different paths, led by the same hand, same direction but at different paces. I have areas of immaturity but have confidence in the Lord's faithfulness which leads to pererverance. I think it's prudent and fruitful to embrace each others differences and support each others walk with brotherly love.
:icon_flower: Thank you both, Novus
Jesus said the kingdom of Heaven is within us. It describes a life governed by God. This verse is not about salvation, it's about the possibility to live in the kingdom of God in this life - which requires that we repent of our sins. For example, if I am an active alcoholic I am most certainly not governed by the Spirit but instead serve a disorder of the flesh. To inherit means that we take possession of something. An alcoholic cannot take possession of the kingdom of God because this taking possession includes forsaking sin. I do not mean that we need to repent of sin so that we receive salvation - I propose that receiving salvation contains repenting of sin. That's why an alcoholic needs to seek the help of God in repenting of the alcoholism so that his life can be repaired and that he can live this life on Earth in the kingdom of God, in close touch with God. It's not about salvation from hell - that's something none of us can do anything for or can fail to find, because it's been decided on the cross when Jesus said "Forgive them, for they know not what they are doing!".
So . .there goes grace right out the window then. All alcoholics . . . to hell with the lot of you. God's love can't go beyond the bottle.
What if the thorn in Paul's side was an addiction to something? Are you saying that because we have imperfections that we can't see the kingdom? It's my understanding that it's not a condition of the mind that opens up our ability to see truth, but it's the condition of our heart. If we're "receptive" to the things of God, he'll be generous in his giving even though not everyone may be delivered from their addiction.
Sin isn't a dirty secret that you should be ashamed of. God knows we are still in bodies of flesh and these bodies can become addicted . . .but I don't base my ability to enter into the kingdom on whether I have an addiction or not. God can use donkey's chickens, fish, birds, even serpents to manifest his will . . .but he can't use people because of a weakness in their life? Sounds a bit conforming to me.
Just my 2 :2c:
I think God can use anyone, sometimes a tramp on the street might give you a word of wisdom from God.
But God expects us to live holy lives, to say grace covers our sins constantly is mocking almighty God and tramples upon the blood of Jesus as an unholy thing, God is not mocked whatsoever a man sows that he shall reap, whether it be righteousness or unrighteousness.
The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.
Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.
That is the first thing Jesus preached. At hand means near, right next to you.
So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.
We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind. You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.
I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him. I think AA is heavily based on that principle. If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.
We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.
This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking. I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall. I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children. He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences. He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries. He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word. They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them. It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons. So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.
Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came. Make any sense? The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons. And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle. Only the son gets the inheritance. I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.
The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general. They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves. They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting. The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church. They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .
Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate. Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it. But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2011, 08:18:37 PM
Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.
That is the first thing Jesus preached. At hand means near, right next to you.
So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.
We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind. You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.
I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him. I think AA is heavily based on that principle. If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.
We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it. What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so. Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles? That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all? That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 08:36:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2011, 08:18:37 PM
Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.
That is the first thing Jesus preached. At hand means near, right next to you.
So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.
We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind. You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.
I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him. I think AA is heavily based on that principle. If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.
We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it. What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so. Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles? That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all? That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?
No.
I'm trying to answer the OP where a list of behaviors was given and it was said these are not able to inherit the kingdom of God. I'm just telling you what I think that means. That doesn't mean I'm right. What do you think it means? For instance, why can't a drunkard inherit the kingdom of God?
A lot of suffering to themselves and others is caused by people practicing that list as a daily walk.
Tight rope to walk here . . .don't want to give the wrong impressin that you can live any crazy way you choose and still enter into the kingdom . . .yet at the same time, I don't beleive those that "do" pursue the kingdom, yet have physcial weaknesses/addictions are going to be cut off from the kingdom they are pursuing as a result. For me . .those that walk away from Christ to pursue their fleshly desires is one thing, but those that have been caught up in their fleshly desires, choose to commit themselves to Christ, yet still have some of the aftermath in their nature . . .those are the ones I'm talking about.
I see 'as we go" in Christ, he's the one that gives us the strength not to fight against our addicitons, but to lay them down all together. Only the flesh struggles with flesh. If it's a fight . .think about it . . . This again isn't to say that it's okay to give in to all temptations. It's saying that there's no condemnation for those who aren't fully free of the bondages those things brought on them after they chased them.
I guess what makes me wince is the idea that I can only enter into the kingdom after I clean myself up. Or after "I" overcome this or that. The only reason I overcome anything is because of the power of the Father living in me in the first place. And if he's at work as He's abiding in me, then I can't help but see that the kingdom is just as accessable as well.
I think it has to do with serving more than one master. I personally have had huge struggles with lust and substances. They take up your time, you devote resources to them, they end up being an idol on your heart. The other thing it does is create guilt, and lots of it, which puts you in hell (in your mind), you can't be in heaven and hell at the same time.
Anything that takes precedence over loving God is an idol
Let's take that one a step further . . .the more "effort" I put in to try to be more disciplined "against" something, strangely enough, the stronger the problem becomes. Why? Because even in my defense toward it, I'm still giving it my attention, my energy, my time . . .my authority. But if we could just turn that attention from our own attempts, and just really and seriously pursue a state of worship . . .not by trying to keep Christian songs in our head . . .that may be a first step for some, but no, it's not "just" what you fill your head with .. .it's what you let out of our heart. If I'm spending all my energy trying to fight against a weakness, I'm not worshiping from my heart.
So are we to just give in to our desires? Absolutely not . . . the way to over come them is to turn from them . . .but if you're "in" the moment of temptation . . .if you give this some serious thought, you'll see that by then, you're already passed where you should have turned off in the first place. Being tempted and being "in the moment" of temptation, for me are two separate things. I just don't know how to put it into words without making it more confusing.
One is a passing thought . . .the other is a thought captured and now is lingering, pausing . . ."in" the moment . . .you're "pondering" the temptation. By then, had you been in a state of worship (remember, not just singing songs in your head 24x7) the passing thought would have not stopped, it would have kept right on going. It's kind of like some of our churches when it comes to sin . . .they get so sin conscious, they lose sight of the "be of good cheer" part of God's nature and everything becomes a list of do's and don'ts.
Christ didn't come that we would have another law . . .he came that we would have abundant life. Give him your attention and you get your authority back.
Quote from: NathanBut if we could just turn that attention from our own attempts, and just really and seriously pursue a state of worship . . .
Isn't that what repent means? Turn-towards-God.
Because, once you are in the thrall of one of these serious problems, I don't think it can be overcome without him.
But, you have to remember Nathan--you are the pastor. This is your job, not mine.
I do have one alcoholic friend in my life now, and it's very painful to watch. And, it's clear to me that I cannot help except to encourage a reliance on God.
But like RHM said, You can't be in heaven and hell at the same time.
Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom? I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest. It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies. If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians. Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up. But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 01, 2011, 12:24:06 AM
Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom? I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest. It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies. If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians. Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up. But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.
:thumbsup:
Hi Nathan,None of us have totally partaken entirely of the kingdom only parts of it ,those places where we have died to the carnel are the places where we experience kingdom living.Jesus entered kingdom living when all the temptations had come and gone.
So for us to fully enter and end up doing what Jesus did we have to be reigning over the mortal.
Only the Father in his time will give us the strength to meet the challenges,so we must rest until then...He'll do it
blessings :icon_king:
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--1 Cor 6
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 01, 2011, 12:24:06 AM
Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom? I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest. It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies. If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians. Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up. But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.
Absolutely the same way I see it as well. It comes with our maturity. a baby Christian "may" find themselves seeing the deep things of God, but due to their maturity, they can't quite walk in what they're seeing. Being born again enables us to see the kingdom, maturity allows us to discern what it is we're seeing and engage, and "call out the things which are not as though they are . . ." Because in the kingdom . . .it's a finished stated. On this earth . . .it's "current state". Huge difference. We can get so caught up in the current state around us that we're distracted from the finished state of life to which we are called. We're called there so that "we" can become the conduit through which that which is finish can manifest in a realm that can only see that which isn't finished.
But yeah, there's an order . . .there's a reason why the holy of holies was constructed on the other side of all three veils. It's a procession, only those who have come to realize "they" are the high priests can enter into this place. And the truth is, not all beleivers will do it. Only three disciples saw Jesus' glory and even then, "they" were instructed to tell no one . . .the other nine never saw what they saw. They represent the first resurrection (3/disciples = 3 represents the resurrection . . .3rd day Jesus rose . . .) which only came to them due to their intimate relationship with Jesus. Peter James and John . . .they were always the ones that were called out from the others whenever Jesus was about to go deep on them.
In similar fashion, Paul was caught up into the 3rd heaven, where he heard words it was not lawful for him to utter before men.
I write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven(outer court)
I write to you young men because you are strong and you have overcome the evil(holy place)
I write to you Fathers because you know Him who is form the beginning(holy of holies)
However, believe the first resurrection is for all who remain faithful to what they have been given, even as the men who could not keep up with avids cmpnay received their share of the booty after the victory over Ziklag. Intimacy is about first love, not experience.
'But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them--I place no other burden on you. 'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come.
(Rev 2:24-25)
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 08:32:16 PM
The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.
This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking. I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall. I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children. He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences. He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries. He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word. They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them. It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons. So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.
Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came. Make any sense? The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons. And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle. Only the son gets the inheritance. I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.
The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general. They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves. They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting. The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church. They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .
Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate. Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it. But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.
I see where your coming from. But being nice is not the same as being rightoeus. A lot of people are much to hard hearted to care about nice things being done to them, what some people need is the majestic Holy fire of God bringing fear of his awesome presence, they need his fire and holy baptisms to smash down their false gods, idols, wicked evil, serpent, self arrogant, lying, wicked stubborn hearts, to realize that God rules in the heavens and on the earth and there is no other name that mankind might be saved exept through the blood of the lamb Yahushuah (yeshua) the only messiah and saviour of man. The time will come when God will send mighty prophets of holy fire that will humble the mighty and the strong and the wicked will bow to the rightoeus and follow them because of their mighty God. Some might think where is the grace?, it is found within the mystery of Gods workings with man, if God did not chastize and do evil, we would not be in this evil world at all and the bible would not be filled from book to book with God doing evil to his servants and His people and the world.
I think the church has instructed the body of christ but has done it, by relying on the flesh to change and has not taught about the holy spirit that does the work.
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2011, 09:03:30 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 08:36:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2011, 08:18:37 PM
Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.
That is the first thing Jesus preached. At hand means near, right next to you.
So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.
We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind. You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.
I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him. I think AA is heavily based on that principle. If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.
We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it. What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so. Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles? That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all? That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?
No.
I'm trying to answer the OP where a list of behaviors was given and it was said these are not able to inherit the kingdom of God. I'm just telling you what I think that means. That doesn't mean I'm right. What do you think it means? For instance, why can't a drunkard inherit the kingdom of God?
A lot of suffering to themselves and others is caused by people practicing that list as a daily walk.
Gluttony is merely the over use of something. I would consider any addiction an act of gluttony. But, here in Ky I know many who I believe love the Lord use tobacco products. It's not healthy, could be considered a form of gluttony but they are used none the less. I don't believe this is as cut and dry as some within the church want to make it.
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 08:36:05 PM
Quote from: Molly on January 31, 2011, 08:18:37 PM
Both Jesus and John the Baptist said, The kingdom of God is at hand, Repent.
That is the first thing Jesus preached. At hand means near, right next to you.
So men were to turn away from a list of behaviors given in the OP and elsewhere that were preventing them from entering the kingdom and turn towards God.
We need a sound mind to enter the kingdom and that list interferes with a sound mind. You can't practice kingdom principles and be simultaneously in the throes of a mind altering addiction or trying to seduce the neighbor's wife.
I have seen God pull people out of addiction instantly or over time when they turn to him. I think AA is heavily based on that principle. If we were able to overcome these things by ourselves, there wouldn't be so many suffering from them.
We know that we can always turn to him for help [repent].
2 Timothy 1:7
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
I think you're still throwing the baby out with the bathwater . . .first, I never said it's okay to continue wallowing in our sin and not have any consequences from it. What I "am" trying to say is that there are people out there who do have . . .let's say smoking . . .they've smoked for years and they've tried time and again to kick it but just haven't been able to do so. Are you then saying because they've not overcome this addictive nature in their bodies, God is going to keep them from being able to see his kingdom principles? That they'll never receive a revelation from God at all? That he only talks to those who walk upright before him?
I have really wrestled with tradional teachings of holiness and sin vs. what you teach. There is a couple things that keep popping into my mind...
1) A good earthly dad knows each childs weaknesses and strengths. He knows their maturity level. He knows what knowledge they are ready for and that which they are not. He reveals these things to them in steps. He raises them within their own confines of maturity level...but always with a goal to raise a healthy, stable, spiritual adult capable of being a highly functioning adult.
Each one of us is in different places within our own maturity. I can only speak for myself but he has revealed parts of his Kingdom and his nature to me in steps. He even allowed me to have misperceptions. I was allowed to grow within the confines of my maturity level even if I didn't have complete truth. He allowed this because I wasn't ready. When I loved the flesh more than I loved God I wasn't ready for these kinds of teachings. I would have used it as an excuse to sin. I know me...and I know this is how I would have used it. So, my misunderstandings of his nature matured me within a limited structure...much like a play pen. But, as I have matured I have noticed that those old teachings seem to do more to inhibit my growth than to help. It sets me back more often than it benefits me. Concentrating on white knuckling flesh issues expends a great deal of energy. Not only that but it keeps the focus on me. I see much truth in what you teach. When I pursue God with all my heart, and place my focus on the Cross rather than on me and my struggles I struggle with the flesh less. I see more growth. And ultimately that is how I discern.
2) What you are teaching isn't for everyone at this particular moment in their lives. Many see it as foo fooing sin...and validating our wrong behaviors. I get that because I have struggled with that notion as well. But, see the thing is this...if we truly love God more than our flesh then our field is ready if we are open. I believe taking our focus off of the flesh and placing it into Kingdom prinicples will yield better fruit. It takes the focus off of us...and places it where it rightly belongs...on God, Christ, the Cross and His Kingdom in our hearts. The fruit of this thinking is actually less of a reaction to the flesh...not more.
yes, I also believe there's a balance. Casting our care on Him, Him living and working through us, me decreasing so He may increase. OTOH, "God forbid that I should sin so that grace may more abound".
That's what I personally seek - the balance, the "what works best day to day"...
You know, maybe he's just stating a fact. Not that we have to try to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom, but that those in the kingdom will be righteous. Assuming everyone will get there eventually, then everyone will be righteous eventually.
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 06:40:14 PM
So . .there goes grace right out the window then. All alcoholics . . . to hell with the lot of you. God's love can't go beyond the bottle.
What if the thorn in Paul's side was an addiction to something? Are you saying that because we have imperfections that we can't see the kingdom? It's my understanding that it's not a condition of the mind that opens up our ability to see truth, but it's the condition of our heart. If we're "receptive" to the things of God, he'll be generous in his giving even though not everyone may be delivered from their addiction.
Sin isn't a dirty secret that you should be ashamed of. God knows we are still in bodies of flesh and these bodies can become addicted . . .but I don't base my ability to enter into the kingdom on whether I have an addiction or not. God can use donkey's chickens, fish, birds, even serpents to manifest his will . . .but he can't use people because of a weakness in their life? Sounds a bit conforming to me.
Just my 2 :2c:
This is where you and I will disagree a bit. There is sin that is so cumbersome that walking in the Spirit is difficult...if not impossible. As a recovering alcoholic, I only served and worshipped alcohol. I tithed and bowed at it's alter. There is no doubt in my mind that if I would have stayed in that state until death I would have not seen the Kingdom. Spiritual living? I knew nothing of the sort. And mind you, I had confessed my sins, a tried to be a "good Christian" since my youth. I got caught up and before I knew it I was in a desperate situation and only God could relieve me of my suffering.
Lets take this to an extreme...if I were a "person of faith" but had an addiction to taking life...and did so regularly would that keep me from seeing the Kingdom? I would have to think so. I think the Bible is pretty clear that sin can inhibit our ability to see with spiritual eyes. That doesn't mean it's the end of the story but I believe there are very good reasons why the Bible teaches us about sin.
Where you and I will agree is where our focus should be as lovers of God and not lovers of the flesh. It shouldn't be on us.
"the kingdom is within you". When Jesus originally said that, He was talking to the Jews pre-cross, and I believe, talking about a relationship, walking in true/pure fellowship with God. I just looked at the context of this verse. I wonder if there's any chance this isn't even primarily talking about "heaven and hell", but whether we're living in the "heavenlies" or encumbered with and therefor suffering the consequences of worldly/sinful living. :dontknow: Don't know, just wondering.
Credit for following excerpt to Perry (Joseph Benedict) Sills - "What does [the Kingdom of God is at hand, or near to us] really mean? In Hebrew, the words"to come near" means: "TO BE AT." Many Christians are confused about what the Kingdom of God, or of Heaven really means -- because of the poor Greek translations from Hebrew into Greek and then into English.
The Kingdom of God is at Hand, or near us. The word "near" in our English translations of the Scriptures, comes from a Greek word: "Engiken," which when translated means "has come near. It is important for us know these Hebrew differences in meaning, to help bring further understanding to our Lord Jesus Christ's teachings, both in the early Church and in todays Church.
If we translate that word NEAR back into Hebrew, we get an entirely different meaning and understanding. The Hebrew equivalent of the Greek word: Engiken, is: "KARAV," which means: "To come up to and be with," or "to be where something or someone else is." Why is this so important, you might ask?
Well, if we use the English or Greek word meaning NEAR, the implication is that the Kingdom of God is sometime in the future, not yet here. Yet the Hebrew word KARAV means the exact opposite. It give us the meaning: "IT IS HERE! IT HAS ARRIVED!" The Kingdom of Heaven or the Kingdom of God is always -- present tense -- it is NOW, according to the Hebrew usage and the understanding of the Jews at the time of Jesus and also within rabbinic usage even today.
The concept or understanding of "Kingdom," is perhaps one of the most important spiritual concepts in the New Testament. Language is an important factor in this vital understanding. In English and in the Greek, the word "Kingdom" is never used as a verb. It is always something to do with territory or a place. But, in Hebrew, the word "Kingdom" is ACTIVE. In fact, it is an action. It is God ruling and acting in the lives of men and women. It is those who are ruled by God, who have surrendered their lives to God, and who are keeping God's Word "abiding in them/living in them," THEY ARE -- "The Kingdom of God."
It is God working through us, in us and by us. We are the Kingdom of God, manifested into the physical world. The Kingdom of God manifests itself through us individually in our individual relationship with Him and then, collectively - when we gather together in Worship.
The Kingdom is where ever the power and glory of God is manifested, witnessed to, confessed publicly, jointly or together. It is where ever Christians are living surrendered lives in Jesus The Christ, the Son of the Living God -- THERE is His "Kingdom."
:thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on February 03, 2011, 02:17:14 AM
"the kingdom is within you". When Jesus originally said that, He was talking to the Jews pre-cross, and I believe, talking about a relationship, walking in true/pure fellowship with God. I just looked at the context of this verse. I wonder if there's any chance this isn't even primarily talking about "heaven and hell", but whether we're living in the "heavenlies" or encumbered with and therefor suffering the consequences of worldly/sinful living. :dontknow: Don't know, just wondering.
That is exactly what I believe. When I speak about not seeing the Kingdom I mean an inability to serve and have fullness of relationship with Christ. The Kingdom is now...not after death.
I'd like to go a ..little.. further with what Jab said.
If I am standing in the kingdom at any given moment, whoever is with me there at that moment is righteous.
It doesn't mean we are both there all the time. Or that we are both righteous all the time.
I can remember looking at a doctor, for instance, and thinking I don't care what this man does in his everyday life, but today he is going to be the righteous Christ who saves my baby. And, he was lol.
We can call out to the Christ in each other if we stand in the kingdom to do it.
Quote from: redhotmagma on February 01, 2011, 12:24:06 AM
Nathan, do you believe that theres a difference between being saved, and inheriting the kingdom? I've been reading all of your dimensional stuff with great interest. It seems to me that inheriting the kingdom is being in the holy of holies. If thats the case then there is a big difference between "levels" of christians. Not that you're not a christian if you aren't cleaned up. But you can't get to that higher state without laying it down, which only comes by total reliance on Christ.
I know this is directed at Nathan but I would like to give my opinion. I think there is a difference in being saved and inheriting the Kingdom. I think it's possible to confess your sins, be genuinely remorseful yet walk in the natural...seeing with natural eyes. In that state, it's all about us...cleaning ourselves up...trying to live right. But, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves. ex. Am I good enough? I am right with God today because I didn't lust today. Living in the spirit isn't about cleaning yourself up...the cleaning up happens as a result of living in the spirit...accepting your inheritance. Do you know you have inherited this Kingdom? Realize who you are in Christ and take hold of God's promises. You are morally bankrupt...just like myself. But, in Christ we are mighty...capable of moving mountains. This isn't about your strength. It's about yielding to the process and seeking relationship. Trust God...he knew your struggles before he made you...they haven't taken him by surprise. You haven't shocked and bewildered God.
We have a tendency to make this about us when the focus should be on the Cross.
Quote from: ShawnBut, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves.
And, also, a lack of belief.
Such as when Peter jumps out of the boat and starts walking on water--then he sees the wind and the waves and loses faith and starts to sink.
Matthew 14:31
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 04:25:26 AM
Quote from: ShawnBut, I believe what keeps us living in this natural realm is our focus on ourselves.
And, also, a lack of belief.
Such as when Peter jumps out of the boat and starts walking on water--then he sees the wind and the waves and loses faith and starts to sink.
Matthew 14:31
And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
I couldn't agree more.
Shawn I totally agree, I think the key to the kingdom is not I but Him.
He that overcomes will inherit all things and he will be a son to me and I will be his father....
inheritance rights went to jacob not esau, because esau did not value the birthright over his appetite
Our birthright is being transformed into the image of Christ..... many sons unto glory
Inheriting the authority of God is a sonship blessing, "For everyone he called he also predestined to be conformed to the image of His son"
Esau's judgment was the loss of the inheritance
If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
(1Co 3:14-15)
it is not about eternal life, it is about being seated with Christ in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus wherein are all spiritual blessings ..."caught up to His throne"
Therefore set not your affection on things below, but rather set your affection on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God
Today, if you hear His voice..... Let the one who has ears to hear, hear what the Spirit is saying to the churches
Quote from: thinktank on February 03, 2011, 12:39:30 AM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2011, 08:32:16 PM
The balance betwen love and judgment is a difficult thing, some people need a good rebuking with holy fire, while others need, love, support and teaching. I guess only the lord truly knows which one is required at the situation in hand.
This line of thought has a lot of the same ear-marks as Old Covenant thinking. I understand there are passages in the New Testament where Paul would instruct people like Timothy and such of how they should conduct their lives as Christians but I also think many cut so much out of what's really going on in many of those passages . . .in the New Testament overall. I don't think people take under consideration 1, that Paul was talking to "his" spiritual children. He's the one that assisted in their born-again experiences. He's the one that administered spiritual gifts into their lives and ministries. He was a true Apostle in every sense of the word. They "received" from him and he "concieved" life in them. It's the rolls of spiritual fathers and sons. So the instructive nature of some of his teachings was due to that relationship.
Then the church comes along, 2000 years later and all they're seeing is the "instruction" they're not seeing the relationship that was first established before the instructions came. Make any sense? The "reason" why Paul could say the things he did was because he saw his responsibility as a spiritual Father and they saw their responsibility as spiritual sons. And no, this isn't talking about just the guys . . .it's a kingdom principle. Only the son gets the inheritance. I'm sure we all can see women in the natural can be spiritual sons in the spiritual.
The second reason why I wince a little at this kind of thinking is the fact that the church also doesn't seem to take in consideration of the maturity level of the recipients . . .not just the individuals themselves, but the maturity and age of the church in general. They didin't have 2000 years of history to draw from as to how one should conduct themselves. They didn't know anything about what should transpire when the saints gathered together in a group setting. The instructions Paul gave out on the gifts of the spirit in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are instrucions to babies in the church. They didn't even know how to operate with the gifts of tongues or prophecy . . . they didn't have mature believers along side of them, encouraging them, strengthening them . . .all they had for a while is what Paul wrote . . .
Then again, 2000 years later the church is trying to make a doctrine out of something that was only meant for those still in the starting gate. Those who've been on milk and have matured through it, then begin to crave for something with more texture to it. But instead of getting the meat, what the church does is give them twice as much milk . . .it's always surprised and amused me that even when Scripture lays it right out there as to what milk is . . .the mainline church continues to embrace the very things listed as milk, and calls them meat.
I see where your coming from. But being nice is not the same as being rightoeus. A lot of people are much to hard hearted to care about nice things being done to them, what some people need is the majestic Holy fire of God bringing fear of his awesome presence, they need his fire and holy baptisms to smash down their false gods, idols, wicked evil, serpent, self arrogant, lying, wicked stubborn hearts, to realize that God rules in the heavens and on the earth and there is no other name that mankind might be saved exept through the blood of the lamb Yahushuah (yeshua) the only messiah and saviour of man. The time will come when God will send mighty prophets of holy fire that will humble the mighty and the strong and the wicked will bow to the rightoeus and follow them because of their mighty God. Some might think where is the grace?, it is found within the mystery of Gods workings with man, if God did not chastize and do evil, we would not be in this evil world at all and the bible would not be filled from book to book with God doing evil to his servants and His people and the world.
I think the church has instructed the body of christ but has done it, by relying on the flesh to change and has not taught about the holy spirit that does the work.
For me . . .the "being nice" is the fruit of God working "in" us. The "self" part of us wants the vengeance. Because we see others that seem cold, hard and brittle, our conclusion then is that if we bring a little fire to them, God would melt that hardness away. I know this because I was once a great supporter of it . . . 'we" called it warfare. But then when I found God calling us out of the warfare and into the plowshares . . .that also changed the dellivery of how I did things. Calling fire down on others is still working in Old Covenant thinking actually.
There's even a passage in the New Testament where James and John wanted to do this same thing. Jesus was "on his way" to Jerusalem but in route, the plan was to stop off at a Samaritan village . . .problem was, when the guys that he sent out to prepare a place for their stop over returned with a negative report . . .the Samaritans seemed to be put off that they were considered as a stop-over rather than a destination . . .but James and John were ready to call fire down on them for their rejection . . .and they got rebuked for it.
Luke 9
54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village
Now . . .I didn't say everything I said because I knew Scripture said it. I said what I said because that's what I believe is His Word written in me . . .and I then remembered this story, so I dug it up and found that it "affirms" in me what my eyes were already seeing. I share "this' part because I truly beleive this is how we're to read all of Scripture . . .not as proof, but as affirmation of what the Spirit is revealing to us "inwardly".
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 01:53:51 AM
You know, maybe he's just stating a fact. Not that we have to try to be righteous enough to enter the kingdom, but that those in the kingdom will be righteous. Assuming everyone will get there eventually, then everyone will be righteous eventually.
Now, I think you may be on to something. And what is it that makes us righteous? I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do. I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are". I'm righteous because he declares that I am. "But what of my weaknesses and failures?" For me, righteousness is not perfection. As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things. No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so. But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected. That's why grace is such a powerful thing. It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him.
The old addictions will fall away and with His strength, new addictions of the negative nature will never happen again. In the eyes of the Father who's throne is in the kingdom, we are already righteous . . .that's why 1 John 3 can say that we no longer sin . . .because when you are in the ascended place looking upon this place, all you see is that which you are in. Just like when you buy a red car . . .you then notice how many or few red cars are out there.
On the reverse, for those who observe each other "from" this earthly perspective . . .religious or not . . .where they are is what they'll see. If all I see is sin in others, it's because I myself, am obsessed with sin and this, I do believe, is where MANY churches come into play . . .they are extremely sin conscious. They claim God is real and all that, but they're way more sin conscious than they are grace conscious. It all depends on where we are as to what it is we can see.
I am being fed today. :thumbsup:
But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection. It's a double edged sword on several levels. I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places. But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.
What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them. They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father. It applies differently to each individual. There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God. Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?
Quote from: NathanAnd what is it that makes us righteous? I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do. I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are". I'm righteous because he declares that I am. "But what of my weaknesses and failures?" For me, righteousness is not perfection. As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things. No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so. But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected. That's why grace is such a powerful thing. It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him.
Actually, I think it goes further than that. Perfection means completion, and when we are joined to him we are complete. Therefore, we are justified by him and perfected by virtue of our relationship/unity with him. It's not about us, it's about Him. We cannot be complete [perfected] without him. But, with him, we are perfect by definition.
...let us go on unto perfection.. [Heb 6:1]
"perfection"G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046;
(the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).
amen Molly!! :winkgrin:
:icon_flower:
Good word Guys - :icon_flower:
Quote from: Molly on February 03, 2011, 10:03:40 PM
Quote from: NathanAnd what is it that makes us righteous? I don't see it as a result of what we do or don't do. I see it as a result of who He proclaims that we "are". I'm righteous because he declares that I am. "But what of my weaknesses and failures?" For me, righteousness is not perfection. As long as I continue to live in this temporary and imperfect body, I will continue to do imperfect things. No matter how hard I try to be perfect, i don't have that ability to do so. But "in him" i have been/am being/will continue to be perfected. That's why grace is such a powerful thing. It's what carries us from where we are now to where we will be wihen all things are complete in him.
Actually, I think it goes further than that. Perfection means completion, and when we are joined to him we are complete. Therefore, we are justified by him and perfected by virtue of our relationship/unity with him. It's not about us, it's about Him. We cannot be complete [perfected] without him. But, with him, we are perfect by definition.
...let us go on unto perfection.. [Heb 6:1]
"perfection"
G5047
τελειότης
teleiotēs
tel-i-ot'-ace
From G5046; (the state) completeness (mentally or morally): - perfection (-ness).
I would completely agree.
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2011, 09:55:15 PM
But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection. It's a double edged sword on several levels. I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places. But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.
What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them. They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father. It applies differently to each individual. There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God. Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?
I don't think people have to clean up their act to walk with him. I do think though that until sin has brought us death that we will not see principles of the Kingdom. As long as we love the flesh more than we love God, we will see with natural eyes. Until, we have been broken by sin that season in our lives isn't over. I believe the sin season brings some perspective...that nothing matters as much as our relationship with God.
I think sometimes we are talking about two seperate sets of believers.
A) Person who has confessed their sins, believes in Jesus as their savior but desires the world, the flesh, and their will over walking with Christ. I believe this person will walk in the natural until a transformation takes place. That transformation often takes place at the hand of pain...usually caused by themself. Sin must take it's toll in order for them to evolve into person B.
B) Person who still has addictions, issues, brokeness, vices etc but has been broken by their own sin. They had a revelation that nothing in this world compares to the love of our Savior. While they may still struggle, they love the Lord, walk with the Lord, and they will see growth. They are placed on that path of sanctification. While they will likely stumble along the way, they are no longer under the power of sin. Pleasures of the flesh are no longer their first love, it can no longer blind them to the principles of the Kingdom.
That is the way I see it today. Ask me next week and I may see it completely different. :bigGrin:
Extremely well said bro . . . nicely done.
I believe God forsees all of our completion as an aspect of His fellowship and love for us- and also every creature under heaven. We have an opportunity to realize the full effect of that love and spread it to others.... that is the purpose and effect of sanctification, which is of the heart first....later subduing the flesh through the multiplication of grace and the overwhelming power of His love for us BEFORE we are sanctified. When sanctification is read as growth in the love of God, rather than simply overcoming the sins of the flesh (performance), then we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds.
Quote from: Nathan on February 03, 2011, 09:55:15 PM
But you have to be careful with that kind of thinking because it suggests that before we can enter into God's truths, before we can see him working in us (kingdom of heaven is "in" you . ..same place where God is working both to will and to do his good pleasure) we have to first show signs of perfection. It's a double edged sword on several levels. I'm not saying that you can live as you please and expect to see all things from ascended places. But at the same time, I do struggle with those who try to tell me God won't talk to me until I meet certain standards of perfection.
What do you do with the person sitting in the pew who's made a mess of thier lives and their bodies, but in doing so, they've found themsleves crying out for God to save them. They choose to follow Christ . . .and yet their bodies are still in bondage of their addictions . . .there's always going to be exceptions to blanket statements because there really is no cookie cutter answer just as there's really no such thing as a corporate, personal relationship with the Father. It applies differently to each individual. There are obviously general directions we can perhaps advise others to take, but my heart goes out to those who truly struggle with the warfare in their flesh while they truly desire the things of God. Am I to hold my arms against them and tell them they first need to clean up their act before God allows them to see the working principles of his kingdom?
I agree with you that there is no cookie cutter approach that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support, but only God knows which direction to point the pastor or friend to the correct advice, but just like Jobs friends, who when you read their opinion, a wise man would say they spoke wisely, but yet God said they sinned and need to repent for misjudging job. Sometimes weird events such as Jobs case happens and our usual tactics don't work.
But generally throughout the bible I believe a person must live holy lives if they are to truly live in power and victory, if they are still struggling in sin then they have not yet lived in true power or victory, as long as we strive for mastery over our sins, then we will seek God and he will help us overcome, either instantly or a slow period of time such as the apostle Paul, who seems to have experienced both, but if love our sins, we will not forsake them or ask God to remove them.
I think that's why only the early church had the power of miracles in abundance, because the people live holy lives, but I do sense that the church today, is begining to forsake sin, traddition and embrace the ways of God fuller than they have for decades, the book of Daniel days that at the end, His people will do exploits, so if the end is about 100 years from now, then it means God is preparing proper teachings to preach the gospel to all nations.
um . . .the idea that we can see more manifestations of God's power "if" we live holy lives . . .it seems to put off the intimate relationship in place of disciplinary methods . . .the reason . .for me . . .that I would live a holy life would not be so the power of God would manifest, I beleive it's because the power of God "is" manifesting in me that gives me the ability to live in holiness . .both the holiness in my life and the visible manifestations of God's power are from the same source, not from an outward lifestyle, but from an inward alignment.
I do think holiness plays a role in our lives, and I also think the miracles are connected to holiness, but not "because" of the holiness of our life. In fact, I think living a life of holiness is a miracle just as great as a lame guy getting up and walking . . .
You also said . . .
that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support
and that was what I was sorta responding to . . .the idea that "I" have the right to rebuke another is a bit of an overstatement I think. There are only "two" classes of individuals that I would feel even partially comfortable with rebuking at all. One is . . .me. Two is . . my spiritual sons . . .outside of that . . .not so much.
Should I come to you and rebuke you for something I disagree with . .what am I really doing? Am I not trying to conform you to live your relationship with the Father according to "my" standards of what that relationship should be?
Quote from: Nathan on February 07, 2011, 05:10:21 PM
um . . .the idea that we can see more manifestations of God's power "if" we live holy lives . . .it seems to put off the intimate relationship in place of disciplinary methods . . .the reason . .for me . . .that I would live a holy life would not be so the power of God would manifest, I beleive it's because the power of God "is" manifesting in me that gives me the ability to live in holiness . .both the holiness in my life and the visible manifestations of God's power are from the same source, not from an outward lifestyle, but from an inward alignment.
I do think holiness plays a role in our lives, and I also think the miracles are connected to holiness, but not "because" of the holiness of our life. In fact, I think living a life of holiness is a miracle just as great as a lame guy getting up and walking . . .
You also said . . .
that is why I said some people need rebuking and others need comforting and support
and that was what I was sorta responding to . . .the idea that "I" have the right to rebuke another is a bit of an overstatement I think. There are only "two" classes of individuals that I would feel even partially comfortable with rebuking at all. One is . . .me. Two is . . my spiritual sons . . .outside of that . . .not so much.
Should I come to you and rebuke you for something I disagree with . .what am I really doing? Am I not trying to conform you to live your relationship with the Father according to "my" standards of what that relationship should be?
You have raised a challenging question and or point. I can see the attraction towards living as peaceably as possible with my fellows, without ruffling their feathers. But in this world, conflict will happen, even between husband and wife. If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow? and isn't the true reason, the cause that people do not rebuke at all, is fear? Fear of their opinion, fear of offending them etc. If the rebuke is done with good intentions and a right spirit, then good should prevail.
Jesus pointed out the mistakes of people more than any of the prophets. Often people say that Jesus is the loveliest, but from what I read I find that Jesus is the most harsh out of all the prophets and he represents truth and love.
Ah, but if you look more closely at the context through when Jesus did all of that rebuking . . .it was "after" others tried to corner him, trick him, oppose him . . . what he did was responsive to a religious force that had already confronted him, not to people in general.
You mentioned . . .
If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow?
Two things . . .maybe three, not sure yet . . .One, I don't see Scripture as something that is to be used as my justifcation to rebuke "others". I believe the message in it is to bring reproof to "me" inwardly. What "you" choose to do is up to you but I do beleive there are effective and extremely ineffective ways to apply the passages. Aiming the sword at someone else for their growth, to me, means that I should be stabbing them to life . . .by using it as an encouragment, a strenghtening tool . . .not as something where I use the verses to cut down other people or to prove they are wrong and I am right.
Two . . . doesn't anyone ever wonder . . .if God knows all things, and what God knows Jesus would also come into knowing . . .that when he chose Judas, he not only knew that Judas would betray him, but he also knew that Judas had greed issues as well. And yet Jesus still chose him. Now, I can understand that as to Judas betraying Jesus . . .that "had" to happen as Jesus was to be a sacrifice. But the thing that I find still intriguing is that in the 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry, not one time do we ever see Jesus pulling Judas aside and "rebuking" him for his greedy ways . . .in fact, not only did he not rebuke him, he put him in charge of the treasury . . .doesn't that strike you as odd?
If we are truly to be out there bringing correction to those whom we see where correction is needed . . .the general Christian population . . .then why do we not see this kind of correction taking place in Jesus ministry? Jesus did rebuke the Pharisees and religious leaders, but it was due to their religious mindsets, he rebuked Peter because he became an adversary toward the purpose of him dying . . .and he rebuked Peter when he deafened the high priest's servant in his defensive use of the sword.
The disciples where his spirutal sons . . . he had the authority to rebuke them as a Father would a son . . .but you didn't see him rebuking the general followers so much . . .
Thirdly . . .how will people grow? They will grow when they lay their heads down and let their hearts follow the sound of life "from within." Remember the kingdom is not what we can observe, obtain, or comprehend through human effort . . .but it's "within" us . . .the same place where God's word is now being written.
Letting a child fall down a couple times will allow the child to mature into balance much more effectively than to never allow them to fall at all.
Quote from: Nathan on February 07, 2011, 06:55:58 PM
Ah, but if you look more closely at the context through when Jesus did all of that rebuking . . .it was "after" others tried to corner him, trick him, oppose him . . . what he did was responsive to a religious force that had already confronted him, not to people in general.
TT
So do you agree that it is ok to rebuke people who challenge or confront?
You mentioned . . .
If people are not rebuking each other or showing their disaproval, or showing them the holy scriptures to where they went wrong, how will people grow?
Two things . . .maybe three, not sure yet . . .One, I don't see Scripture as something that is to be used as my justifcation to rebuke "others". I believe the message in it is to bring reproof to "me" inwardly. What "you" choose to do is up to you but I do beleive there are effective and extremely ineffective ways to apply the passages. Aiming the sword at someone else for their growth, to me, means that I should be stabbing them to life . . .by using it as an encouragment, a strenghtening tool . . .not as something where I use the verses to cut down other people or to prove they are wrong and I am right.
TT
To be clear here when I mean rebuke people I do not mean, going out there and pointing out peoples flaws, there are plenty enough of those people in the world. I am talking about Godly rebuke and instruction, such as how Paul rebuked Peter(Peter being told off again, I'm begining to wonder whether he was just a target to pick on, while Judas is robbing people, complaining, murdering God and gets scott free)
Two . . . doesn't anyone ever wonder . . .if God knows all things, and what God knows Jesus would also come into knowing . . .that when he chose Judas, he not only knew that Judas would betray him, but he also knew that Judas had greed issues as well. And yet Jesus still chose him. Now, I can understand that as to Judas betraying Jesus . . .that "had" to happen as Jesus was to be a sacrifice. But the thing that I find still intriguing is that in the 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry, not one time do we ever see Jesus pulling Judas aside and "rebuking" him for his greedy ways . . .in fact, not only did he not rebuke him, he put him in charge of the treasury . . .doesn't that strike you as odd?
TT
Yes, but heres a thought I had, Is all things written in the texts?. If I were a disciple I would pray that many of the things I did were not written down. Pastors often talk about Peter denying Jesus 3 times, whenever the topic of forgivness is raised, they say, how terrible a sin Peter did and God forgave him. I often think that this is hardly the worst sin given the situation he was in, the other disciples were not even attending, and that Peter and the other disciples sinned far more than what is recorded in the texts, that they needed to be forgiven many times not just once.
If we are truly to be out there bringing correction to those whom we see where correction is needed . . .the general Christian population . . .then why do we not see this kind of correction taking place in Jesus ministry? Jesus did rebuke the Pharisees and religious leaders, but it was due to their religious mindsets, he rebuked Peter because he became an adversary toward the purpose of him dying . . .and he rebuked Peter when he deafened the high priest's servant in his defensive use of the sword.
So rebuking is done, even by Jesus. The apostle Paul also rebuked the church because they were still having to drink milk. But I realize that some people are over zealous and are constantly rebuking, it can be dreary and tiresome experience, it was like this for me when I first came here at this forum, but thankfully the fingerpointing came to an end by the grace and power of God.
The disciples where his spirutal sons . . . he had the authority to rebuke them as a Father would a son . . .but you didn't see him rebuking the general followers so much . . .
So in the context of the church, the people usually have a pastor to sheperd them and to rebuke them. I guess its a matter of trust between pastor and sheep, as some pastors abuse their authority.
Thirdly . . .how will people grow? They will grow when they lay their heads down and let their hearts follow the sound of life "from within." Remember the kingdom is not what we can observe, obtain, or comprehend through human effort . . .but it's "within" us . . .the same place where God's word is now being written.
Letting a child fall down a couple times will allow the child to mature into balance much more effectively than to never allow them to fall at all.
My :2c:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)
I don't think the issue is so much " To rebuke, or Not to rebuke". I think it is, those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God. Walking in His ways, we can declare His counsel and reprove the adversaries from a place of brokeness.
I think the word speaks for itself pretty clearly. "Ye kno not what spirit ye are of" applies pretty well. The problem is usually that the peole with logs in their eyes are trying to operate on people with specks in their eyes because they "Kno neither the word nor the power of God"..... in other words, God,s priorities are still a mystery to them. They apply the word in a wrong spirit to others instead of the right spirit, which is first towards me. I have a saying, "You cannot rightly divide the word of truth until you have been rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit".
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
His eyes are like flames of fire, consuming the chaff, purifying the soul.
Quote from: eaglesway on February 08, 2011, 06:03:38 AM
My :2c:
For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe. But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
(Heb 5:12-14)
Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
2Ti 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
(2Ti 2:24-26)
I don't think the issue is so much " To rebuke, or Not to rebuke". I think it is, those who are led by the Spirit, these are the sons of God. Walking in His ways, we can declare His counsel and reprove the adversaries from a place of brokeness.
I think the word speaks for itself pretty clearly. "Ye kno not what spirit ye are of" applies pretty well. The problem is usually that the peole with logs in their eyes are trying to operate on people with specks in their eyes because they "Kno neither the word nor the power of God"..... in other words, God,s priorities are still a mystery to them. They apply the word in a wrong spirit to others instead of the right spirit, which is first towards me. I have a saying, "You cannot rightly divide the word of truth until you have been rightly divided by the sword of the Spirit".
For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are open and laid bare to the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.
(Heb 4:12-13)
His eyes are like flames of fire, consuming the chaff, purifying the soul.
You may have started with your :2c:, but God increased your message to a hundred fold by the time you were done!! Great post.
Good post, sums up our argument well.