Life in the Spirit

[Kratos]

This is one of those times when I just have to speak what is on my heart and let the chips fall where they may. My disclaimer is that I mean this toward no one in particular other than myself.

I will forever be thankful that God revealed to me the truth about UR and the lie of ET. To do this, He showed me how men of old mistranslated words like "eternal" and "Hell" because a man of the Word like myself could never have seen this light in spite of what the Bible says no matter what I thought of God. I could only see it when I could see it in the original languages of the Bible.

My concern is that taking this one false foundational stone out of our Christianity seems to have made it too easy to question many other things that we just do not "think" sounds right to us. Except now, we do not have to prove what we question in light of the original translations of the Bible, we can just trust our feelings of what is true over the written Word. If you have followed my posts, this may work for some, but it does not work for me.

In the last few months, I have heard there is no free will, no virgin birth, no Satan, no demons, no 5-fold ministry, and no need for assembling together in person with a local body of believers. I have heard medical science exalted over God's healing power and man's ideas of mental illness exalted over what the Bible says is not natural, but spiritual in nature. Mainly, I have heard that the Bible is not really the Word of God unless what we read is what we already think that the Spirit is saying.

I honestly do not know how much longer I can go this way with you all. I seem to post less and less and shake my head more and more. Why? Because I believe that the unsaved soul of man is still the knowledge of good and evil and it still brings spiritual death. Spending our time at that tree discussing what we think and what we feel is right and what we have decided to do instead of going to the other tree of life and seeing what saith the Lord is not good for people of God.

I know most of you will shake your heads that I am so archaic and orthodox and not moving with the times, but some of you know what I am saying. This is a supernatural life that we are supposed to be living. Expecting and seeing miracles should be the norm. Healing the sick and raising the dead and casting out devils and proclaiming the Kingdom is what we should be about and not tearing apart the Bible as we exalt our insight over His oversight.

Does anyone else believe that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked and no one can know it? Does anyone else know that the Mystery of Iniquity is what is hidden from us and revealed by God's Word? I for one am bothered that I seem to have so much in common with atheists and so little in common with the rest of Jesus' Body. I think we may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater and the bathtub and the towels and the soap and the bathroom sink. We are liable to be left with no sure foundation other than what we think God is like. Why is this different than any unbeliever on earth?

John

[SeekerSA]

My concern is that taking this one false foundational stone out of our Christianity seems to have made it too easy to question many other things that we just do not "think" sounds right to us. Except now, we do not have to prove what we question in light of the original translations of the Bible, we can just trust our feelings of what is true over the written Word. If you have followed my posts, this may work for some, but it does not work for me.

I say hear hear to this.  One of the issues I had when 1st coming to Tentmaker was the variance of beliefs/understanding and yes they were a stumbling block for me initially.  Even through this the HS was faithful and showed me where the pearls of wisdom were.  I too have seen that once everything is questioned we may come to the same conclusion as Atheists, however what I see here is a place where the tough questions can be asked.  We have seen difference of opinion from light side topics to the dark side and I believe we all see only darkly and no one has the answers.

But where do we draw the line or can we draw the line is probably a better question?

Foundational, all here hold to believe in Jesus and the fundamental issues regarding the Christian faith.  We need to realise Tentmaker represents cultures from around the world so culture bias does exist.  So far noname and I to my knowledge are the only South Africans and both of us can tell you that what seems to be the bias in the states is not so prevalent in our culture.  Here the known predominant faith is Christianity in its various doctrines and the closest we have here to UR is one Christadelphian church.

There is a USA influence particularly in the English speaking Charismatic and Pentecostal churches.

Most topics discussed here at tent are avoided here at home.

In the last few months, I have heard there is no free will, no virgin birth, no Satan, no demons, no 5-fold ministry, and no need for assembling together in person with a local body of believers. I have heard medical science exalted over God's healing power and man's ideas of mental illness exalted over what the Bible says is not natural, but spiritual in nature. Mainly, I have heard that the Bible is not really the Word of God unless what we read is what we already think that the Spirit is saying.

I think some have expressed opinions in his regard but I do not believe these have been dispelled.  For me free will exists apart from salvation as I have posted many times, the virgin birth to me although prophetic to me is not hypercritical, satan exists, demons exist.  For the 5-fold ministry, to me it is a cliche that I have seen little here of what it really is supposed to be, assembling together for me is this forum as in my town I have no body I can join with that I have not already been to and been disappointed with.

Mental illness can be demoniac or a physical condition, both of which are able to be healed by the Holy Spirit.  Conditions such as depression cannot always be healed, we all know that, sometimes these things require counselling and/or medication.  Medication will treat the symptoms or dull them but only counselling gets to the root cause of these matters.  Our joy should be in the Lord yet when Christians are depressed, they look for a quick-fix and sometimes that is just not possible.  I have seen trained church counsellors fail, what then?  We cannot fix what the person does not want fixed themself.  The nature of man is to defer blame and/or responsibility.  Only once a person accepts co-responsibility can God and/or counsellors be of help.  This IMO would be the same as an alcoholic or drug addict and that includes prescription drugs.  Admission is half the battle/healing won.  Only having experienced the latter two, can I pass comment.

I know most of you will shake your heads that I am so archaic and orthodox and not moving with the times, but some of you know what I am saying. This is a supernatural life that we are supposed to be living. Expecting and seeing miracles should be the norm. Healing the sick and raising the dead and casting out devils and proclaiming the Kingdom is what we should be about and not tearing apart the Bible as we exalt our insight over His oversight

I agree 100%  We live this Christianity only successfully in the Spirit and not in the carnal sense.  We are all IMO somewhere on the scale of Pure carnality to Pure Spirituality.  At this point in my walk I am learning and sense I am being prepared for something later which will be more in the natural interaction other than this medium.

I do not see your views as archaic or orthodox.  You are here for a reason.

Does anyone else believe that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked and no one can know it? Does anyone else know that the Mystery of Iniquity is what is hidden from us and revealed by God's Word? I for one am bothered that I seem to have so much in common with atheists and so little in common with the rest of Jesus' Body. I think we may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater and the bathtub and the towels and the soap and the bathroom sink. We are liable to be left with no sure foundation other than what we think God is like. Why is this different than any unbeliever on earth?

Deceitfully wicked, yes, it is our inherent nature. I agree that only the Holy Spirit can burn into our hearts the truth, what we share here is what is revealed to us, some see things other do not, I do not believe that there is a right or wrong when we start seeing the deeper onion layers as they are revealed.  The more one dedicates to study the more will be revealed.  The problem lies when one embraces a teaching or revelation of another person w/o having the HS witness that to you in your heart, that is the danger of wrong doctrine.  In spite of this, I am confident there are enough people here that challenge these issues even if it becomes heated.  Through that I am confident that young one will see truth for what it is and not for what "feels good"

We have common grounds with Atheists only in the ET issues.  I have yet to see one agree with me apart from that.  They still hold to their unbelief.

We have much in common with the rest of the body apart from about 5 major issues.  If you read what I believe here you will see what I mean.  I should bump it up.

It may seem that we have trashed the whole bathroom but deep inside, we all hold to certain truths we learned in the mainstream.  Most who come here are already established.

For me this is the only place where complacency is not evident, we continually need to evaluate, renew our minds, strengthen our faith in Christ.

Blessings

[hopeful]

Please, hang in there, John!  :ok:
I hope you can just keep being you-
letting Christ shine through you in His unique to you way.
Then we can walk in the light together. 
We're all different shades aren't we? 
And I like them all.

I think some folks have
to get down to the bare foundation and rebuild.
For some- that takes a long time and Christ's love and patience
through me, will go a long way in the waiting.  :whistleshake:

If Christ isn't their foundation then I want people to find that out-
because they're missing out if that is the case. 
The sooner they can see the need for that sure Foundation,
the happier I'll be!

:HeartThrob:
Hopeful

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Amen Hopeful, don't leave John. Part of what you are seeing is the difference in the Apostle and prophet being birthed/used. The apostle is the solid rock, the firm foundation that Judah springs from. The prophets have to go "out there" further in the Spirit, seeing "new" things that really aren't new at all, and then have to wait for them to be "translated" and settled and sifted, by the Holy Spirit. They NEED the grounding of the apostle for this process to work properly, else they become unbalanced and end up with no firm foundation established.

The written Word itself is an apostle, the Spirit Word is a prophet, and just as it takes the two to birth anything worthwhile, so too, does it take both in a people gathered to come together and raise up the pillar of cloud that is the Son in the midst of them. This is the cloud we are to meet Him in. We can't have one of the "cherubim" leaving us, now can we? There is not one person on this board that is here by accident, and that most definitely includes YOU. Love and blessings to you, my friend......

[Kept]

Be you! Only you can be and do what you are called to do and be uniquely! God has set the stones in the walls. He alone forms and fashions them and places them.

John you are amazing, I feel blessed to even know you. No one can be you on Tentmaker or the athiest board, glad you are you.

kept

[Redlettervoice]

Brother John, I think you will find many here that hope you stick around. Your
contribution is NEEDED!  And I have told you before that I recognize your calling.
But I sure know how it is, about the time I think I will go away from a direction,
the Big Wheel turns me that very way!  I have learned NEVER to say I will go here
or there.  Our purposes are what matters. Some may not see YOUR purpose.
But others will.

I hope you stay around. You have a solidness about you that many appreciate.

[rosered]

  Hi John ,
Im fairly new
coming back after a dry spell
  and also feel greatful  to God for you .........   many do get weary in well doing , its  a common thing , this has spoken to me today more than usual and hope it blesses you all as well .  peace  Jesus is our peace  desiring  to Keeping Him within us all   , rose

Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.


1Th 5:6  Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.


1Th 5:7  For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8  But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.


1Th 5:9  For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,


1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.


1Th 5:11  Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1Th 5:12 ¶ And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;


1Th 5:13  And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. [And] be at peace among yourselves.


1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].

1Th 5:15  See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men].


1Th 5:16  Rejoice evermore.


1Th 5:17  Pray without ceasing.

[joian]

John,

How I have listened  to all on this board over the last 3 years...........and then as it always is......when I..felt like I had my shoes on straight I started walking and talking a little......I began...investigating this UR doctrine from other sources.........When I came accidently upon you and Jack discussing UR over on eagles there was an anointing on what both of you were saying.........it lasted for days and days as you two men of God reasoned with each other.....at one point I would be with Jack at another point I was with you........God it was a beautiful example of iron sharpening iron and that happened to me as a bystander.........We have all since that time been offended and blessed by the openness to ask questions and get answers we may not want to hear......yes I know there is that which is ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth here..........but it is after all, about hearts.......and they will be sifted by what goes on around here and leave and then come back again........You may need to go away for a while..........but if so we will meet on the road again up ahead.  To be sure, your staying or going is in the hands of the Lord...............lol 

Healing is still happening in our lives,  along with deliverance, and fellowship of the believers and he is adding to us such as should be saved, healed and restored.....

Just saw Card's answer and prayer for Byron's friend..........it is amazing how she explained healing and sovereignity in one paragraph........

I sure saw miracles for my children in the recent Ca. fires.......nothing short of stopping the fire in every area they lived or worked.........

Someone said this recently and it impacted me.............

the All in All cannot be discerned by the carnal man it will always be  distorted............the all in all can only be understood by the spirit man..........

So it is with the written word, we call the bible. I truly believe anything short of of it being revealed to us by the spirit will carry distortion or bias......

What's the old joke, pastor asking unhappy wife if she had tried heaping coals on her husbands head and she answered that just made him all the more angry, and then there were the hospital bills.........

Nope the church survived without anything but the misunderstood words of Jesus, the examples of the those around them who lived Godly lives, and they talked amongst themselves, you bet they did.......they talked about what the Lord was saying to them and the rest judged it........

God Bless you brother,

Love,
Joian

[Kratos]

Thank you for all of your comments. I really do love all of you.

John

[noname]

John,
I see this dispensation of Pentecost (wheat and tares) coming to fruition...I think in this day and age many are starting to recognize the wheat as wheat and tares as tares...it was not always so

it is good for people to question...and maybe from these questions the perception might be that we are "throwing the baby out with the water"...but I do believe in the sincerity of seekers in order to know "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"

let your light shine...for yours are unique...just like everyone elses! :bigGrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi John... :hithere:

Having had an ulcer in my life, I have found that venting is a good thing... Holding things inside, and letting those inner boiling issues cook those insides, is not!  You have found something new recently in your Spiritual understanding, that being UR... 

As you will, ...take of the advice I offer to you here, and leave the rest...

I feel led to say that neither you nor I (nor anyone else) is SAVED by this knowledge (UR)... nor is the "Athiest" or "unaware Christian", LOST by his lack of it...

Peace is of the goals and hopes of the believer... and finding that PEACE does not mean that you will eventually observe everyone believing as do you...

PEACE is knowing that YHVH GOD is moving with you down your own unique and individual pathway, and is directing that unique pathway...  Confidently trusting that HE already knows every "good" step, and every "bad" one, BEFORE it is taken... and has ALREADY tallied those steps to conclude in wonderful result of YOUR SALVATION...

Realize that through the good and the bad (you might see in us, OR yourself), He is leading you to your SALVATION... and your personal reconciliation with HIM... AND that He is actively using others (particularly speaking of those here at TM) in that process... as He is using YOU  :wink3: ...in ours...

We are not saved by our knowledge or lack of it... We are saved by JESUS CHRIST's completed WORK at the Cross of Calvary!

Yes!  COMPLETED... He said:  it IS FINISHED... but our individual "walks" through time are NOT... This journey is not an easy one John... Remember, through SUFFERING was our Lord JESUS CHRIST made complete (Heb 2:10)... That suffering was endured within His entire life, ...His walk through time...

We are no different John, ...each SON, shall travel the road of SUFFERING... which includes both SPIRITUAL and PHYSICAL sufferings...

Have PEACE brother... we are siblings, and siblings often do not see "eye to eye"...

Please don't heap the burden of the responsibility of correction of others upon your back... just continue to yield in your walk with Him, and He will provide our corrections in part, through you, ...as His wonderful work is done in our lives...  Through one another, He will often MAR us, before molding the Clay in its permanent way... That shaping is often unpleasant...

I have often maintained that the acoustic guitar I have owned (and used to write over 400 songs) since 1971 (36yrs), has never even played even ONE NOTE, nor has IT ever, at ANY TIME, ...made any MUSIC...

Be His instrument John... He WILL "play" the music of His LOVE through your heart...  :gthumbsup:

And know that through our disagreements or differings... we LOVE YOU as our brother, cherished in YOUR RARITY, as the Only YOU that exists in the entire Creation of Almighty YHVH...   :friendstu:

Hang in there...  :2thumbs:

Peace unto you brother...  :HeartThrob:

In  JESUS...willieH  :icon_flower:

[pickr]

Hi John,

That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?

Anyway, I don't want to repeat what all the others have said so beautifully. I would just encourage you to hold fast to that which is good, and to soldier on in your walk. You carry inside you gifts that are uniquely yours to share.

In love,

Andy

[Loveroftruth]

Hi John,

That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?

Why do you think this is  :mshock: :dontknow:

[pickr]

Hi John,

That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?

Why do you think this is  :mshock: :dontknow:

I don't know, Christine. (LOL... how's that for a totally unsatisfactory answer?) My best guess is that it is somehow just one more troubling aspect of the futility of this world of sin, death and decay in which we currently reside.

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  I could hazard a possibility. Did it shake any of you when you found out? Did it try to work on you, ie. why bother to tell anyone anything if they're all going to be saved anyway? It tried to work on me, I know that. I think there is a shaking going on in many ways along the lines of; Would you still worship Me if I wasn't like what you thought I was? The closer we get, it stands to reason, the more graven images are going to fall, and it's going to be a shaking when they do. My  :2c: Blessings to all......

[Kept]

Willie that was one beautiful post!!! I loved it  :HeartThrob:

You are sure a blessing

:girlheart:

kept

[Kratos]

Willie and all,

Thanks for all of the encouragement. I am both blessed and cursed with a shepherd's heart. I cannot seem to help myself from carrying the care of the church as Paul spoke of. This causes some to get offended when I become concerned for them as those in the past that expressed such concern also made claims upon the lives of those that they cared for.

It kind of reminds me of a few years ago when a lot of religious right in our country wanted to amend the constitution to stop flag burning or to ban homosexual marriage. In each case, my biggest concern was opening the door to amend a document that has effectively protected our freedoms for so many years. If we started to change the constitution for something we wanted, what would be added or removed when others were in the majority?

It just concerns me that a byproduct of coming to an understanding that part of the Bible was mistranslated is that anything now seems up for grabs. As a result, I hear some whose foundations have become unsure and they even are considering falling away to atheism. This is certainly not what I want to pass on to my family or other Christians who I meet.

John

[Kept]

John

I am not falling away into athiesm, just so you know, in case you think Im one that is.

:girlheart:

[pickr]

:cloud9:  I could hazard a possibility. Did it shake any of you when you found out? Did it try to work on you, ie. why bother to tell anyone anything if they're all going to be saved anyway? It tried to work on me, I know that. I think there is a shaking going on in many ways along the lines of; Would you still worship Me if I wasn't like what you thought I was? The closer we get, it stands to reason, the more graven images are going to fall, and it's going to be a shaking when they do. My  :2c: Blessings to all......

And a good :2c: it is, Cardinal. I'll have to chew on it awhile.

But an initial thought. I don't think I was so much shaken as I was thrilled, and energized in faith, and head-over-heals in love with God. But I know this. Everyone arrives at the station from a different point of departure, and we all have our own set of luggage, so to speak. Making things even more complicated is the truth that the journey doesn't end when one is enabled to hear and believe the Gospel. God pretty quickly hurries us along to catch another train to the next destination He wants us to see.

I think maybe what John is sensing is that the train starts to feel insecure on the track when one strays from God's word. Personally, I think he's right to be concerned. That it's a good sign. Not everything that sounds good is good. And if we try to make God fit a description of our own making, then we're pretty well guaranteed to be, at a minimum, sorely disappointed. I don't know for certain, but I believe that very thing is what led one of the friends I mentioned to atheism. The Bible became more and more an item to be cut and pasted and critiqued through natural eyes rather than spiritual eyes. I fear that little good can come of such.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. And hold fast to that which is good, sister. :)

Peace and blessings,

Andy

[SeekerSA]

Well I was rattled when I discovered UR thought even though many views aligned with what I initially believed in like no hell, God is Love.

I guess for anyone where their entire embraced doctrine needs to be thrown out and start anew, just hold onto Jesus.  The rest is not hypercritical.

Jesus said "I am the way, no man comes to the Father but by me"

That is one truth no one here denies.  All things are in and through Christ only.

Blessings

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed, except maybe when He took the rapture away from me over 20 years ago in the beginning of my walk. The revelation of the Seed as Spirit in a way I had never seen before, brought me to the point where Paul said, I know nothing but Christ (Seed) and Him crucified. All my understanding of my doctrines came crashing down in a nanosecond and He literally silenced me for months because I no longer knew how to reconcile what I had been shown and didn't want to sin with my mouth. He knows where we live, doesn't He, LOL? Blessings to you.........

[Loveroftruth]

Card said

cloud9 Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed

Whats the revelation of the seed  :dontknow:

[Taffy]

Card said

cloud9 Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed

Whats the revelation of the seed  :dontknow:

Hi LT

maybe The Revealing Of HIM = WORD = seed

Blessings
Taffy

[Taffy]

Hi John

Willies post says it all for mine Brother.

Thoughts are with you you Bro

Blessings
Taffy

[Kept]

Well I guess Im just different in how I view things

I have become much more liberal in the past year. I think universalists also have the fundamentalists, conservatives and liberals. I started out fundamentalist then conservative and am now becoming more and more liberal. That is just how it is in my spiritual life.

However with that said, No one but God can take my beliefs from me. I dont even think I have the power to walk away from them. I could perhaps give that lip service but nothing changes the heart and mind like HIM and HIM alone.

Jesus Christ is absolutely the center of my walk with God.

The bible used to be that center but it no longer holds first place in a literal way. However, in a spiritual way it is one place I have gotten to know my Lord and Savior. It is now a part of me, the parts of the bible that have been eaten and come alive in the spirit that is. Those could only be taken by God. If for some reason He saw fit to take me thru a time of unbelief I trust Him.


But,

I will not cast away my confidence

Without faith it is impossible to please God

faith is very much a part of who I am, no way around that, most of what I have is by faith

I wont just lie that down and walk off, bible or no bible

HE is the WORD of God and its by Hearing HIM that I have this faith

love you all

kept