This is one of those times when I just have to speak what is on my heart and let the chips fall where they may. My disclaimer is that I mean this toward no one in particular other than myself.
I will forever be thankful that God revealed to me the truth about UR and the lie of ET. To do this, He showed me how men of old mistranslated words like "eternal" and "Hell" because a man of the Word like myself could never have seen this light in spite of what the Bible says no matter what I thought of God. I could only see it when I could see it in the original languages of the Bible.
My concern is that taking this one false foundational stone out of our Christianity seems to have made it too easy to question many other things that we just do not "think" sounds right to us. Except now, we do not have to prove what we question in light of the original translations of the Bible, we can just trust our feelings of what is true over the written Word. If you have followed my posts, this may work for some, but it does not work for me.
In the last few months, I have heard there is no free will, no virgin birth, no Satan, no demons, no 5-fold ministry, and no need for assembling together in person with a local body of believers. I have heard medical science exalted over God's healing power and man's ideas of mental illness exalted over what the Bible says is not natural, but spiritual in nature. Mainly, I have heard that the Bible is not really the Word of God unless what we read is what we already think that the Spirit is saying.
I honestly do not know how much longer I can go this way with you all. I seem to post less and less and shake my head more and more. Why? Because I believe that the unsaved soul of man is still the knowledge of good and evil and it still brings spiritual death. Spending our time at that tree discussing what we think and what we feel is right and what we have decided to do instead of going to the other tree of life and seeing what saith the Lord is not good for people of God.
I know most of you will shake your heads that I am so archaic and orthodox and not moving with the times, but some of you know what I am saying. This is a supernatural life that we are supposed to be living. Expecting and seeing miracles should be the norm. Healing the sick and raising the dead and casting out devils and proclaiming the Kingdom is what we should be about and not tearing apart the Bible as we exalt our insight over His oversight.
Does anyone else believe that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked and no one can know it? Does anyone else know that the Mystery of Iniquity is what is hidden from us and revealed by God's Word? I for one am bothered that I seem to have so much in common with atheists and so little in common with the rest of Jesus' Body. I think we may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater and the bathtub and the towels and the soap and the bathroom sink. We are liable to be left with no sure foundation other than what we think God is like. Why is this different than any unbeliever on earth?
John
Quote from: KratosMy concern is that taking this one false foundational stone out of our Christianity seems to have made it too easy to question many other things that we just do not "think" sounds right to us. Except now, we do not have to prove what we question in light of the original translations of the Bible, we can just trust our feelings of what is true over the written Word. If you have followed my posts, this may work for some, but it does not work for me.
I say hear hear to this. One of the issues I had when 1st coming to Tentmaker was the variance of beliefs/understanding and yes they were a stumbling block for me initially. Even through this the HS was faithful and showed me where the pearls of wisdom were. I too have seen that once everything is questioned we may come to the same conclusion as Atheists, however what I see here is a place where the tough questions can be asked. We have seen difference of opinion from light side topics to the dark side and I believe we all see only darkly and no one has the answers.
But where do we draw the line or can we draw the line is probably a better question?
Foundational, all here hold to believe in Jesus and the fundamental issues regarding the Christian faith. We need to realise Tentmaker represents cultures from around the world so culture bias does exist. So far noname and I to my knowledge are the only South Africans and both of us can tell you that what seems to be the bias in the states is not so prevalent in our culture. Here the known predominant faith is Christianity in its various doctrines and the closest we have here to UR is one Christadelphian church.
There is a USA influence particularly in the English speaking Charismatic and Pentecostal churches.
Most topics discussed here at tent are avoided here at home.
QuoteIn the last few months, I have heard there is no free will, no virgin birth, no Satan, no demons, no 5-fold ministry, and no need for assembling together in person with a local body of believers. I have heard medical science exalted over God's healing power and man's ideas of mental illness exalted over what the Bible says is not natural, but spiritual in nature. Mainly, I have heard that the Bible is not really the Word of God unless what we read is what we already think that the Spirit is saying.
I think some have expressed opinions in his regard but I do not believe these have been dispelled. For me free will exists apart from salvation as I have posted many times, the virgin birth to me although prophetic to me is not hypercritical, satan exists, demons exist. For the 5-fold ministry, to me it is a cliche that I have seen little here of what it really is supposed to be, assembling together for me is this forum as in my town I have no body I can join with that I have not already been to and been disappointed with.
Mental illness can be demoniac or a physical condition, both of which are able to be healed by the Holy Spirit. Conditions such as depression cannot always be healed, we all know that, sometimes these things require counselling and/or medication. Medication will treat the symptoms or dull them but only counselling gets to the root cause of these matters. Our joy should be in the Lord yet when Christians are depressed, they look for a quick-fix and sometimes that is just not possible. I have seen trained church counsellors fail, what then? We cannot fix what the person does not want fixed themself. The nature of man is to defer blame and/or responsibility. Only once a person accepts co-responsibility can God and/or counsellors be of help. This IMO would be the same as an alcoholic or drug addict and that includes prescription drugs. Admission is half the battle/healing won. Only having experienced the latter two, can I pass comment.
QuoteI know most of you will shake your heads that I am so archaic and orthodox and not moving with the times, but some of you know what I am saying. This is a supernatural life that we are supposed to be living. Expecting and seeing miracles should be the norm. Healing the sick and raising the dead and casting out devils and proclaiming the Kingdom is what we should be about and not tearing apart the Bible as we exalt our insight over His oversight
I agree 100% We live this Christianity only successfully in the Spirit and not in the carnal sense. We are all IMO somewhere on the scale of Pure carnality to Pure Spirituality. At this point in my walk I am learning and sense I am being prepared for something later which will be more in the natural interaction other than this medium.
I do not see your views as archaic or orthodox. You are here for a reason.
QuoteDoes anyone else believe that the heart of man is deceitfully wicked and no one can know it? Does anyone else know that the Mystery of Iniquity is what is hidden from us and revealed by God's Word? I for one am bothered that I seem to have so much in common with atheists and so little in common with the rest of Jesus' Body. I think we may have thrown out the baby with the bathwater and the bathtub and the towels and the soap and the bathroom sink. We are liable to be left with no sure foundation other than what we think God is like. Why is this different than any unbeliever on earth?
Deceitfully wicked, yes, it is our inherent nature. I agree that only the Holy Spirit can burn into our hearts the truth, what we share here is what is revealed to us, some see things other do not, I do not believe that there is a right or wrong when we start seeing the deeper onion layers as they are revealed. The more one dedicates to study the more will be revealed. The problem lies when one embraces a teaching or revelation of another person w/o having the HS witness that to you in your heart, that is the danger of wrong doctrine. In spite of this, I am confident there are enough people here that challenge these issues even if it becomes heated. Through that I am confident that young one will see truth for what it is and not for what "feels good"
We have common grounds with Atheists only in the ET issues. I have yet to see one agree with me apart from that. They still hold to their unbelief.
We have much in common with the rest of the body apart from about 5 major issues. If you read what I believe
here you will see what I mean. I should bump it up.
It may seem that we have trashed the whole bathroom but deep inside, we all hold to certain truths we learned in the mainstream. Most who come here are already established.
For me this is the only place where complacency is not evident, we continually need to evaluate, renew our minds, strengthen our faith in Christ.
Blessings
Please, hang in there, John! :ok:
I hope you can just keep being you-
letting Christ shine through you in His unique to you way.
Then we can walk in the light together.
We're all different shades aren't we?
And I like them all.
I think some folks have
to get down to the bare foundation and rebuild.
For some- that takes a long time and Christ's love and patience
through me, will go a long way in the waiting. :whistleshake:
If Christ isn't their foundation then I want people to find that out-
because they're missing out if that is the case.
The sooner they can see the need for that sure Foundation,
the happier I'll be!
:HeartThrob:
Hopeful
:cloud9: Amen Hopeful, don't leave John. Part of what you are seeing is the difference in the Apostle and prophet being birthed/used. The apostle is the solid rock, the firm foundation that Judah springs from. The prophets have to go "out there" further in the Spirit, seeing "new" things that really aren't new at all, and then have to wait for them to be "translated" and settled and sifted, by the Holy Spirit. They NEED the grounding of the apostle for this process to work properly, else they become unbalanced and end up with no firm foundation established.
The written Word itself is an apostle, the Spirit Word is a prophet, and just as it takes the two to birth anything worthwhile, so too, does it take both in a people gathered to come together and raise up the pillar of cloud that is the Son in the midst of them. This is the cloud we are to meet Him in. We can't have one of the "cherubim" leaving us, now can we? There is not one person on this board that is here by accident, and that most definitely includes YOU. Love and blessings to you, my friend......
Be you! Only you can be and do what you are called to do and be uniquely! God has set the stones in the walls. He alone forms and fashions them and places them.
John you are amazing, I feel blessed to even know you. No one can be you on Tentmaker or the athiest board, glad you are you.
kept
Brother John, I think you will find many here that hope you stick around. Your
contribution is NEEDED! And I have told you before that I recognize your calling.
But I sure know how it is, about the time I think I will go away from a direction,
the Big Wheel turns me that very way! I have learned NEVER to say I will go here
or there. Our purposes are what matters. Some may not see YOUR purpose.
But others will.
I hope you stay around. You have a solidness about you that many appreciate.
Hi John ,
Im fairly new
coming back after a dry spell
and also feel greatful to God for you ......... many do get weary in well doing , its a common thing , this has spoken to me today more than usual and hope it blesses you all as well . peace Jesus is our peace desiring to Keeping Him within us all , rose
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
1Th 5:12 ΒΆ And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;
1Th 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. [And] be at peace among yourselves.
1Th 5:14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all [men].
1Th 5:15 See that none render evil for evil unto any [man]; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all [men].
1Th 5:16 Rejoice evermore.
1Th 5:17 Pray without ceasing.
John,
How I have listened to all on this board over the last 3 years...........and then as it always is......when I..felt like I had my shoes on straight I started walking and talking a little......I began...investigating this UR doctrine from other sources.........When I came accidently upon you and Jack discussing UR over on eagles there was an anointing on what both of you were saying.........it lasted for days and days as you two men of God reasoned with each other.....at one point I would be with Jack at another point I was with you........God it was a beautiful example of iron sharpening iron and that happened to me as a bystander.........We have all since that time been offended and blessed by the openness to ask questions and get answers we may not want to hear......yes I know there is that which is ever learning and never coming to the knowledge of truth here..........but it is after all, about hearts.......and they will be sifted by what goes on around here and leave and then come back again........You may need to go away for a while..........but if so we will meet on the road again up ahead. To be sure, your staying or going is in the hands of the Lord...............lol
Healing is still happening in our lives, along with deliverance, and fellowship of the believers and he is adding to us such as should be saved, healed and restored.....
Just saw Card's answer and prayer for Byron's friend..........it is amazing how she explained healing and sovereignity in one paragraph........
I sure saw miracles for my children in the recent Ca. fires.......nothing short of stopping the fire in every area they lived or worked.........
Someone said this recently and it impacted me.............
the All in All cannot be discerned by the carnal man it will always be distorted............the all in all can only be understood by the spirit man..........
So it is with the written word, we call the bible. I truly believe anything short of of it being revealed to us by the spirit will carry distortion or bias......
What's the old joke, pastor asking unhappy wife if she had tried heaping coals on her husbands head and she answered that just made him all the more angry, and then there were the hospital bills.........
Nope the church survived without anything but the misunderstood words of Jesus, the examples of the those around them who lived Godly lives, and they talked amongst themselves, you bet they did.......they talked about what the Lord was saying to them and the rest judged it........
God Bless you brother,
Love,
Joian
Thank you for all of your comments. I really do love all of you.
John
John,
I see this dispensation of Pentecost (wheat and tares) coming to fruition...I think in this day and age many are starting to recognize the wheat as wheat and tares as tares...it was not always so
it is good for people to question...and maybe from these questions the perception might be that we are "throwing the baby out with the water"...but I do believe in the sincerity of seekers in order to know "the whole truth, and nothing but the truth"
let your light shine...for yours are unique...just like everyone elses! :bigGrin:
willieH: Hi John... :hithere:
Having had an ulcer in my life, I have found that venting is a good thing... Holding things inside, and letting those inner boiling issues cook those insides, is not! You have found something new recently in your Spiritual understanding, that being UR...
As you will, ...take of the advice I offer to you here, and leave the rest...
I feel led to say that neither you nor I (nor anyone else) is SAVED by this knowledge (UR)... nor is the "Athiest" or "unaware Christian", LOST by his lack of it...
Peace is of the goals and hopes of the believer... and finding that PEACE does not mean that you will eventually observe everyone believing as do you...
PEACE is
knowing that
YHVH GOD is moving
with you down your own unique and individual pathway, and is
directing that unique pathway... Confidently trusting that HE already knows every "good" step, and every "bad" one, BEFORE it is taken... and has ALREADY tallied those steps to conclude in wonderful result of YOUR SALVATION...
Realize that through the good and the bad (you might see in us, OR yourself), He is leading you to your SALVATION... and your personal reconciliation with HIM... AND that He is actively using others (particularly speaking of those here at TM) in that process... as He is using
YOU :wink3: ...in ours...
We are not saved by our knowledge or lack of it... We are saved by JESUS CHRIST's
completed WORK at the Cross of Calvary!
Yes! COMPLETED... He said: it IS FINISHED... but our individual "walks" through time are NOT... This journey is not an easy one John... Remember, through SUFFERING was our Lord JESUS CHRIST made complete (Heb 2:10)... That suffering was endured within His entire life, ...His walk through time...
We are no different John, ...each SON, shall travel the road of SUFFERING... which includes both SPIRITUAL and PHYSICAL sufferings...
Have PEACE brother... we are siblings, and siblings often do not see "eye to eye"...
Please don't heap the burden of the responsibility of correction of others upon your back... just continue to yield in your walk with Him, and He will provide
our corrections in part, through you, ...as His wonderful work is done in our lives... Through one another, He will often MAR us, before molding the Clay in its permanent way... That
shaping is often unpleasant...
I have often maintained that the acoustic guitar I have owned (and used to write over 400 songs) since 1971 (36yrs), has never even played even
ONE NOTE, nor has IT ever, at ANY TIME, ...made
any MUSIC...
Be His instrument John... He WILL
"play" the music of His LOVE through your heart... :gthumbsup:
And know that through our disagreements or differings... we LOVE
YOU as our brother, cherished in YOUR RARITY, as the Only
YOU that exists in the entire Creation of Almighty
YHVH... :friendstu:
Hang in there... :2thumbs:
Peace unto you brother... :HeartThrob:
In
JESUS
...willieH :icon_flower:
Hi John,
That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?
Anyway, I don't want to repeat what all the others have said so beautifully. I would just encourage you to hold fast to that which is good, and to soldier on in your walk. You carry inside you gifts that are uniquely yours to share.
In love,
Andy
Quote from: pickr on November 13, 2007, 02:02:58 AM
Hi John,
That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?
Why do you think this is :mshock: :dontknow:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 13, 2007, 02:04:41 AM
Quote from: pickr on November 13, 2007, 02:02:58 AM
Hi John,
That old saying... "...there is nothing new under the sun" is oh so true. Some of the dear brothers and sisters I once knew here years ago are no longer believers in UR. One I knew here became an atheist. Another was a pastor, and now no longer believes. I don't know why this happens, but it does. Always has, I guess. There really is nothing new under the sun, ya know?
Why do you think this is :mshock: :dontknow:
I don't know, Christine. (LOL... how's
that for a totally unsatisfactory answer?) My best
guess is that it is somehow just one more troubling aspect of the futility of this world of sin, death and decay in which we currently reside.
Peace and blessings,
Andy
:cloud9: I could hazard a possibility. Did it shake any of you when you found out? Did it try to work on you, ie. why bother to tell anyone anything if they're all going to be saved anyway? It tried to work on me, I know that. I think there is a shaking going on in many ways along the lines of; Would you still worship Me if I wasn't like what you thought I was? The closer we get, it stands to reason, the more graven images are going to fall, and it's going to be a shaking when they do. My :2c: Blessings to all......
Willie that was one beautiful post!!! I loved it :HeartThrob:
You are sure a blessing
:girlheart:
kept
Willie and all,
Thanks for all of the encouragement. I am both blessed and cursed with a shepherd's heart. I cannot seem to help myself from carrying the care of the church as Paul spoke of. This causes some to get offended when I become concerned for them as those in the past that expressed such concern also made claims upon the lives of those that they cared for.
It kind of reminds me of a few years ago when a lot of religious right in our country wanted to amend the constitution to stop flag burning or to ban homosexual marriage. In each case, my biggest concern was opening the door to amend a document that has effectively protected our freedoms for so many years. If we started to change the constitution for something we wanted, what would be added or removed when others were in the majority?
It just concerns me that a byproduct of coming to an understanding that part of the Bible was mistranslated is that anything now seems up for grabs. As a result, I hear some whose foundations have become unsure and they even are considering falling away to atheism. This is certainly not what I want to pass on to my family or other Christians who I meet.
John
John
I am not falling away into athiesm, just so you know, in case you think Im one that is.
:girlheart:
Quote from: Cardinal on November 13, 2007, 03:27:04 AM
:cloud9: I could hazard a possibility. Did it shake any of you when you found out? Did it try to work on you, ie. why bother to tell anyone anything if they're all going to be saved anyway? It tried to work on me, I know that. I think there is a shaking going on in many ways along the lines of; Would you still worship Me if I wasn't like what you thought I was? The closer we get, it stands to reason, the more graven images are going to fall, and it's going to be a shaking when they do. My :2c: Blessings to all......
And a good :2c: it is, Cardinal. I'll have to chew on it awhile.
But an initial thought. I don't think I was so much shaken as I was thrilled, and energized in faith, and head-over-heals in love with God. But I know this. Everyone arrives at the station from a different point of departure, and we all have our own set of luggage, so to speak. Making things even more complicated is the truth that the journey doesn't end when one is enabled to hear and believe the Gospel. God pretty quickly hurries us along to catch another train to the next destination He wants us to see.
I think maybe what John is sensing is that the train starts to feel insecure on the track when one strays from God's word. Personally, I think he's right to be concerned. That it's a good sign. Not everything that sounds good is good. And if we try to make God fit a description of our own making, then we're pretty well guaranteed to be, at a minimum, sorely disappointed. I don't know for certain, but I believe that very thing is what led one of the friends I mentioned to atheism. The Bible became more and more an item to be cut and pasted and critiqued through natural eyes rather than spiritual eyes. I fear that little good can come of such.
Thanks for your thoughtful post. And hold fast to that which is good, sister. :)
Peace and blessings,
Andy
Well I was rattled when I discovered UR thought even though many views aligned with what I initially believed in like no hell, God is Love.
I guess for anyone where their entire embraced doctrine needs to be thrown out and start anew, just hold onto Jesus. The rest is not hypercritical.
Jesus said "I am the way, no man comes to the Father but by me"
That is one truth no one here denies. All things are in and through Christ only.
Blessings
:cloud9: Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed, except maybe when He took the rapture away from me over 20 years ago in the beginning of my walk. The revelation of the Seed as Spirit in a way I had never seen before, brought me to the point where Paul said, I know nothing but Christ (Seed) and Him crucified. All my understanding of my doctrines came crashing down in a nanosecond and He literally silenced me for months because I no longer knew how to reconcile what I had been shown and didn't want to sin with my mouth. He knows where we live, doesn't He, LOL? Blessings to you.........
Card said
Quotecloud9 Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed
Whats the revelation of the seed :dontknow:
Quote from: Loveroftruth on November 13, 2007, 02:15:56 PM
Card said Quotecloud9 Well said, Andy. I know UR shook me up, but probably nothing ever shook me as much as the revelation of the Seed
Whats the revelation of the seed :dontknow:
Hi LT
maybe The Revealing Of HIM = WORD = seed
Blessings
Taffy
Hi John
Willies post says it all for mine Brother.
Thoughts are with you you Bro
Blessings
Taffy
Well I guess Im just different in how I view things
I have become much more liberal in the past year. I think universalists also have the fundamentalists, conservatives and liberals. I started out fundamentalist then conservative and am now becoming more and more liberal. That is just how it is in my spiritual life.
However with that said, No one but God can take my beliefs from me. I dont even think I have the power to walk away from them. I could perhaps give that lip service but nothing changes the heart and mind like HIM and HIM alone.
Jesus Christ is absolutely the center of my walk with God.
The bible used to be that center but it no longer holds first place in a literal way. However, in a spiritual way it is one place I have gotten to know my Lord and Savior. It is now a part of me, the parts of the bible that have been eaten and come alive in the spirit that is. Those could only be taken by God. If for some reason He saw fit to take me thru a time of unbelief I trust Him.
But,
I will not cast away my confidence
Without faith it is impossible to please God
faith is very much a part of who I am, no way around that, most of what I have is by faith
I wont just lie that down and walk off, bible or no bible
HE is the WORD of God and its by Hearing HIM that I have this faith
love you all
kept
Quote from: keptJesus Christ is absolutely the center of my walk with God.
:icon_flower: :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Kept on November 13, 2007, 04:25:59 PM
Well I guess Im just different in how I view things
Nothing wrong with that. If you weren't different, you wouldn't be you! :thumbsup:
Paul says we are to encourage one another and be of like mind. But he also says that each member of the body has unique gifts.
Keep on keepin on, Kept. Hold fast to that which is good.
Peace and blessings,
Andy
Quote from: Kratos on November 10, 2007, 10:15:31 AM
My concern is that taking this one false foundational stone out of our Christianity seems to have made it too easy to question many other things that we just do not "think" sounds right to us. Except now, we do not have to prove what we question in light of the original translations of the Bible, we can just trust our feelings of what is true over the written Word. If you have followed my posts, this may work for some, but it does not work for me.
In the last few months, I have heard there is no free will, no virgin birth, no Satan, no demons, no 5-fold ministry, and no need for assembling together in person with a local body of believers. I have heard medical science exalted over God's healing power and man's ideas of mental illness exalted over what the Bible says is not natural, but spiritual in nature. Mainly, I have heard that the Bible is not really the Word of God unless what we read is what we already think that the Spirit is saying.
I honestly do not know how much longer I can go this way with you all. I seem to post less and less and shake my head more and more. Why? Because I believe that the unsaved soul of man is still the knowledge of good and evil and it still brings spiritual death. Spending our time at that tree discussing what we think and what we feel is right and what we have decided to do instead of going to the other tree of life and seeing what saith the Lord is not good for people of God.
Hi John,
I share many of your concerns, but I am a newbie. And while a I appreciate a forum where evidently the only common thread in the moderators is the belief that Jesus is Lord and Saviour of all people, I believe that the Church has deeper needs in regards to the theology of UR. For example, Protestant orthodoxy holds to the following beliefs: Jesus is the incarnation of God the Son; Jesus physically died and physically resurrected; "all" of the original manuscripts for all the books in the Old and New Testament are the Word of God.
Here I need to clarify that I am not opposing anybody in Tentmaker who rejects that all of the original manuscripts of all the books in the Old and New Testament are the Word of God, which for all I know could be the majority of the Tentmaker moderators. But I am addressing a need for many Christians. For example, many Christians have little confidence in consulting a Bible resource which chooses what parts of the Bible are the Word of God. Many Christians want to work out their biblical doctrines with other Christians who believe that all of the Bible is the Word of God. So Christians who want to consider UR while they are coming from the perspective of Protestant orthodoxy may lose confidence in Tentmaker.
I hope that nobody is offended by what I am saying, but I wish to suggest that Tentmaker forum includes a section that is dedicated to some doctrinal statements related to Protestant orthodoxy. For example, the section could be dedicated to reaching evangelical churches with UR. And John, perhaps you would be one the best people here to head up such a section.
Blessings:)
All I can say John is that we need balance here. Tentmaker is at the forefront of UR, which is the real gospel that will change the world. It's hard to believe that the state of the church is as far off as it is, but It's becoming more and more clear that, even at it's best, the present system is not even close to representing the God to His creation. I've only recently come to grips with the fact that TBN, which is 'Spirit Filled' and adhere's to all the basic creeds and to the infallibility of the 'Word' etc. is corrupt beyond repair. I have personally worked with some of these folks in decades past - and it was great, but it's now about greed from the foundation up.
It's a bit scary, the treck to the outskirts of the camp, but Christ is there. If anyone in charge around here starts denying Christ - I'll be out the door with you in a heartbeat, but until then - it's just you and the others here and a few local friends who I can really share with.
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on November 14, 2007, 06:59:52 AM
All I can say John is that we need balance here. Tentmaker is at the forefront of UR, which is the real gospel that will change the world. It's hard to believe that the state of the church is as far off as it is, but It's becoming more and more clear that, even at it's best, the present system is not even close to representing the God to His creation. I've only recently come to grips with the fact that TBN, which is 'Spirit Filled' and adhere's to all the basic creeds and to the infallibility of the 'Word' etc. is corrupt beyond repair. I have personally worked with some of these folks in decades past - and it was great, but it's now about greed from the foundation up.
It's a bit scary, the treck to the outskirts of the camp, but Christ is there. If anyone in charge around here starts denying Christ - I'll be out the door with you in a heartbeat, but until then - it's just you and the others here and a few local friends who I can really share with.
- byron
I concur with all you said here Byron and it was about three weeks ago that it dawned on me that most all in the organized church with it's five fold ministry do not know Jesus. I was afraid to think this but I painfully came to grips with this conclusion as I found these people are being led by their souls and have fallen back into the religion of the law and works while mouthing grace with their lips. God seems to be separating as the system has been corrupted almost beyond belief. So much seems to be falling in Babylon recently and I can only hope some will see to flee.
I wrestle with these questions but maybe from the opposite end. I haven't yet received a response here on this topic but I was so hoping to get other's views. If people believe in Hell fire how can they know Christ who is the embodiment of the Father's Agape?
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1359.0
I feel like I have been stunned and thrown back by the darkness in the organized church. I never would have imagined how strong the deception. Be blessed and please know I sincerely and painfully am trying to work through what I have seen and experieinced of late.
Jack
Jack, I can so relate to this, though I also find it hard to think this way. When I used to work with mentaly handicaped people- because the home was run by the roman catholic church- we went with them to some of the services that were especially designed for them. All they heard there was about the Love of God (anything else wouldn't have interested them or even gotten through to them) and I was very thankfull for that. They just loved it when I would bring them to bed and pray for them. But the institution itself was so corrupt and if they would have known that I prayde for and wittnessed to folks they would have kicked me out, even though I only shared Christ and nothng about any denomination.
At this time I was part of one of the local churches and held a leadership position there, Before Father told me to leave it I got more and more frustrated because people were so dysfunctional but thought themselves so spiritula and sophisticated. But to tell you the truth my patiences at work seemed to have more sanity than my friends at 'church'.
Latley I got really frustrated because I discoverd that all the guys that are labeled 'men of God' in our area are very much involved in churchpolitics and are excellent in manipulating people through guilt and shame. After I cried out to Father, He made it clear to me that this is all they got. Because there is no real anointing if one needs to rely on this kind of methods. I still find it hard to accept this, but it seems to turn out that this is the truth and it absolutley shocks me.
Where is the real Jesus? Where are the people that display His character and His power?
More and more I've become aware of my own lack of reality and all I can do is fall on my knees and ask for more of Himself. This all makes me really, really sad.
:cloud9: LT, this is the revelation He gave me on the Seed......this is what He's actually accomplishing in us by taking us outside the camp...
:cloud9: All of creation is waiting on the manifestation of the sons of God, that's true. And the word manifestation there means, of course, to uncover or reveal. But what is actually to be revealed or uncovered? It's not the Christ, for He has been revealed in varying degrees for 2 days now , the 2 days of the inner court realm of Pentecost. Christ is a many membered body that is Spirit, and it is Christ that is/are the son(s), the seed of the Father. So who is it then, that all of creation is waiting to have uncovered?
:cloud9: God the Father was IN Christ, reconciling all men unto Himself. Christ is the seed that COVERS the Father, and it is THIS uncovering of the true spiritual sons of God of the Father, that all of creation is waiting for. This is why it says that unless a grain (seed) of wheat fall to the ground and die, it abideth alone, ie. without the fullness of the Father, too, in full manifestation.
:cloud9: We, are not the sons; the flesh profiteth nothing. This is why there are sons/Christ raising up, that are according to the flesh, both male and female. There is terrestrial flesh, and there is celestial flesh, and it is the celestial flesh of the Christ that must be laid down as it is that seed that beareth fruit after it's own kind, because it's own kind is the FATHER. What we sow, we reap. This is why if we sow the flesh (ours) we only reap corruption, but if we sow the Christ seed, His flesh, we reap incorruption of the Father, the everlasting life!
:cloud9: The Christ seed, if you will, is the life that covers the everlasting life of the Father within. It is everything He has given us in this inner court experience, that literally forms what is Christ in us. The gifts, the titles, even the doctrines must be laid down as crowns at His feet. THIS IS the circumcision of Abraham, the father of our faith, who was declared righteous because of the SEAL of circumcision. Abraham was called to leave country (the land/earth you are comfortable in/your comfort zone), kindred (who are my brethren? those that do the will of my Father), and his father's house (carnal mind or the carnal minds you are submitted to), and lay his promised seed, his only begotten son of promise, on the altar.
:cloud9: We are called to do only what we see our Father do, and He laid His only begotten son, the Christ on the altar, too. Christ IS the firstfruits offering! This is why it says you can't have the Son without the Father, nor the Father without the son, for each comes to REVEAL/UNCOVER the other.
:cloud9: Hebrews 10 tells us the tabernacle is the pattern of things in the heavenly realms. The tabernacle had TWO partitions. The first, represents the veil of our terrestrial "flesh" that is "rent" when we go from the outer court experience of initial salvation to the inner court experience of the inner court/baptism of the Holy Spirit, as we partake of true communion, the bread/word eaten in the light of the candlestick/ wine to the renewing of our mind. Those that hunger (bread) and thirst (wine) for righteousness shall be filled (with the fullness of God the Father=Holy of Holies experience).
:cloud9: Christ apportioned Himself to us in the inner court realm of Pentecost in gifts, titles, ect. and as great as it's been, it is still only a portion, the earnest of our
inheritance. We laid down our flesh, our "veil" to enter into the Christ, and it is this veil that is done away with when we are no longer under the letter of the law that killeth, but under subjection to and IN the Christ, for the strength of the law is sin but if the flesh is "dead" then we are no more debtors to the law.
:cloud9: We "died", (if we have appropriated it) if you will, and were resurrected into the SPIRIT of Christ. Christ laid down His flesh, which is celestial flesh, to enter into the Father, because flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of God (represented as Holy of Holies). This is the second resurrection, and the rending of the SECOND veil, that is between the inner court and the Holy of Holies, which is the flesh of Him, that we must lay down. Blessed is he who takes part in the first resurrection (rending of our veil to enter into Christ), upon whom the second death (laying down the flesh of Him-rending the second veil) will have no effect.
:cloud9: If we die with Him (the Christ seed), then shall we also be raised with Him, into
the presence of God the Father. Positionally, we received it, but not experientially, because we could not, for the time had not come---until now. So the promise therefore is IN Isaac/Christ/ the flesh of Him being rent/laid down, not in Ishmael/the flesh of us being rent, for our life is hid IN Christ, and that life that is hid is the Father. For if Christ the Spirit had not risen then we would be as those that have no hope. Why? Because if the Christ had not ascended to the Father, then neither would we able to, because there is only one mediator between man and the Father and that is the Christ.
:cloud9: The promise is the FATHER, who is IN Christ reconciling all men unto Himself. Ever wonder why when He arose He still had the marks? It was so we would
know we could lay down the FLESH of HIM and still live, for it was not just the natural marks they were looking at, but the marks of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world, for flesh and blood (terrestrial) cannot enter the kingdom of God. First natural, then spiritual. But He has flesh and He has blood and it was this that went thru walls and ascended to the Father, when THAT veil was rent. This is why the Holy GHOST was not given until after He ascended to the Father. A ghost is a spirit that has lived in a body. A HOLY GHOST is one that has lived in a HOLY BODY, i.e.. the CHRIST body/veil that the FATHER lived/lives in, therefore that veil had to be rent as well, for He said if I don't go away (the celestial flesh of the Christ that was risen), another comforter will not come to you.
:cloud9: The "another comforter" that is to come to us in the FULLNESS IN US, IS THE
FATHER, as the Holy GHOST. Job lost everything the Lord God had given to him, which represented the flesh of the Christ, at the hand of the LORD, but that is the requirement for the double portion, for Job received double. Job said in the beginning I heard of God with mine ears (inner court) experience of hearing Him thru the gifts, but NOW I see Him with mine eyes. We are changed by what we perceive from glory to glory, thru the mind of Christ. It is our carnal fleshly nature to want to hang onto the FRUIT (gifts and callings) that looks so good to the lust of the flesh of our "Eve", but He was marred so badly so that none should desire Him. None desire us out here in the wilderness. We appear backslidden at best.
:cloud9: Laying down the flesh of Him, looks bad to the lust of the eyes. That's why when He told the disciples the manner in which He should die, many left Him that same hour. Taking on the image of sinful flesh is not pretty, not something the lust of the eyes covets. But Elijah, a type of the Christ, told Elisha what the requirement for receiving the double portion was; if you see (perceive thru the mind of Christ) the FLESH OF ME leave, then you shall have it.
:cloud9: The veil was made of GOAT'S hair and linen (image of sinful flesh) and about 9(9 speaks of the fullness of His love manifested as the Christ=9 gifts, 9 fruits) inches thick. Only the hand of God the Father can rend this veil of the Christ, because no man can come to the Father except the Father call him. In Song of Sol. it says thou hast DOVE'S EYES (the only thing left in this flesh is the mind/perception of Christ within this image of sinful flesh) within thy locks (hair=glory) ; thy hair is as a flock of GOATS, that appear from mount Gilead. The word appear there means to caper as a GOAT.
:cloud9: Gilead is a region EAST (kings come from the east) of the JORDAN (past the death of the first veil of flesh), and comes from root word that means something ROLLED away, heap of stones (lively stones=the Christ in each one), by analogy a SPRING of WATERS (He comes with a voice of many waters). This is why Gideon laid TWO offerings on the altar--one a cake, and one a kid (male goat). We must see Him as He is to be conformed into His image from glory to glory. Has He given you dove's eyes so that you can see Him as the image of sinful flesh, and thereby be changed into that glory? Do you see Him as the veil of goat's hair/linen that must be rent/flesh of Him laid down, to reveal the Father inside?
:cloud9: When Jesus said "I am the resurrection AND the life", it was because He heard the FATHER speak this. The Father is the resurrection and the life! The Father also said, "I stand at the door and knock, and if any man will hear my voice (inner court) and OPEN (rend the veil) the door, then I (the Father) will come in and sup with him and him with Me." Christ, the Son, seed of God, is the door that must be opened. Open there runs into a meaning of opening the EYES. Father, open the eyes of our understanding, that we may see You as you are now, and dance/cavort as David did when He was stripped of the garments YOU had given him. The garments He gave us are anything not of ourselves, but of Christ who dwells within us and upon us. Blessings... .....
I've read this through about 3 times to this point-
QuoteThe Christ seed, if you will, is the life that covers the everlasting life of the Father within.
I must be seeing/hearing better because I actually understood 50% of what you said..........lol
I printed off a hard copy to just take with me.........
How long has it been Cardinal since I thanked God for you...........
Keep on.......I get glimpses into the spirit when you share........
Love you,
Joian
:cloud9: Thanks Joian, that's encouraging. When He makes something life in you, it's hard to put into words sometimes, but I try to make it as plain as I can, and trust at the appropriate time according to the will of the HS, it will "click" in someone. Blessings to you....... :HeartThrob:
Card,
I am going to print it off and read it before bed :Book:
Thanks sis :friendstu: