Argument from evil.

[thinktank]

There is a scripture which says "God cannot lie"

The devil is the Father of all lies.


So is it impossible for God to lie? I don't think so, because God is not a stranger to evil, he has directly caused destruction many times, but he is honest about it. But I believe it is against his character to lie, God is bold and honourable that's why Jesus says to Peter "Get behind me Satan" very direct and blunt "Bread not fit for dogs" to the woman, unlike the pharisees who would go to great lengths, to conceal their malice under their well crafted sentences, so as to attack the receiver without anyone else perceiving it.

So the point I'm making, does God need to lie? Why would the almight lie? This is what the devil does best and is the father of it.

[legoman]

Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?

(Again the answer is no, no, and no).

If God cannot make 2+2=5
or make himself be not God.
or make a rock so big he cannot lift it
Or change his nature

Then it would sound reasonable that God did not, nor cannot have anything to do with his nature of his being. Wouldn't you say that would be the logical conclusion?

CHB

Possibly, but it is difficult for me to wrap my head around the concept of something having no beginning. 
Also it is a bit of funny question.  God is His nature - so of course He has something do with it.  He is it.  Maybe I'm not understanding your question fully.

If God always existed, then He has always been, and thus always had His nature of being the way He is - so possibly your question becomes moot.  Did God "have anything to do with His nature of being"?  Why would He need to?  He has always been that way right?   There was never a point when He was not righteous and there was never a point when He will not be righteous.  Again, its hard to understand because everything we have as a reference in this physical world has a beginning.  God has no beginning.

These are deep questions which I cannot answer fully.   :dontknow:

But in terms of what we experience in this physical reality of space & time, we see that evil exists, and we can hypothesize that evil exists because it must be this way in the same way 2+2 must equal 4.  If it could have been done some other way, and still achieved the same end results, then surely God would have done it the way without evil.  However since it is this way, this must be the only way to reach the desired result ie. gaining a full knowledge of the truth.

To me this is as reasonable and logical as proving 2+2=4.  Others go down the road to say God did not intend evil to exist, or evil just happened and God was forced to "allow" it, but to me that invalidates the premise of what God is.

Just the way I see it and as best I can explain it.

Cheers...

[legoman]

Now if we establish that certain things must be the way the way they are and cannot be any other way in order to achieve the desired end result, then we can talk about intent and evil a bit.

A verse that says God causes evil does not mean God is evil.  We have to understand there is an intent behind an action - and it is the intent that determines whether the actor is evil or not.

Example: slapping a baby could be viewed as an evil action.  Yet what is the intent here?  Perhaps the baby is choking and a good slap on its back will save its life.  Perhaps the baby was just born and needs a slap to start it breathing.  But on the other hand slapping a baby for no good reason is certainly an evil intent.  The question is always intent.

We could say God causes/allows evil to cause much good to happen.  This is the greater good theory.  And then if we remember from the top that certain things must be the way the way they are, then we will realize why God causes/allows evil.  It is because it must be that way so that the desired result - the greater good - will happen.

We see this idea of intent in Genesis 50:20 in the story of Joseph and his 12 evil brothers.  The brothers intended it to happen for evil purposes - greed, jealousy, hate.  But God intended it to happen for a MUCH MUCH greater good.  Because of that event, Joseph ends up saving his entire nation, years later.  Who would have saw that coming?  No one except for God.  God intended it.  It had to happen that way to achieve the result that God intended.

[legoman]

There is a scripture which says "God cannot lie"

The devil is the Father of all lies.


So is it impossible for God to lie? I don't think so, because God is not a stranger to evil, he has directly caused destruction many times, but he is honest about it. But I believe it is against his character to lie, God is bold and honourable that's why Jesus says to Peter "Get behind me Satan" very direct and blunt "Bread not fit for dogs" to the woman, unlike the pharisees who would go to great lengths, to conceal their malice under their well crafted sentences, so as to attack the receiver without anyone else perceiving it.

So the point I'm making, does God need to lie? Why would the almight lie? This is what the devil does best and is the father of it.

It is always a fine line between "God does not lie" and "God cannot lie" and "It is impossible for God to lie".

Certainly we see in scripture that God does not lie in His own words and speaking.  You are right in that there is no need for Him to lie directly.

Yet we also see in scripture that God sends out lying spirits, God sends out delusion, God hardens hearts.  God uses Satan for a purpose, as we see in Job.

Again it is about intent.  God does not have evil intent.  Yet He does these actions, which could be perceived as evil if viewed alone.  But we know there is more to it than a simple action of God sending out a lying spirit or God sending deception.  The question is why?  Why would He do these things?

And the answer is it must be this way if we are to come to a full understanding of the truth.

This sheds some light:
Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.

Suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope:  these are all good things.  Can these things be produced in a way that does not involve suffering?  I would say NO they cannot.  So we can realize there is a greater good achieved from suffering - there is a necessity for suffering.  Suffering comes about from evil, so we see there is a necessity for evil.

etc.

Suffering and evil will not always be needed, but they are a temporary necessity to achieve part of the desired end result.

[thinktank]

Yes but the point im making is that God hates lies, yea it is an abomination to him according to the book of proverbs.

But God delights in punishment, discipline and judgment, so God expects us to bare our punishment without comlaining, such as Cain, that God said that his offering was not good enough, and then was saying you should not have your countance fallen Cain otherwise sin lieth at the door.

In many ways God is a old fashioned hard man, who likes to do things tough and rough, but because God is much bigger than us, he is also the tender hearted mercyfull God, this is why  people say the God of the old testament is the miserable stern Father, while the God of the new testament is his compassionate, loving son, even though from evidence I have gathered, they are both the one and the same God, same person.

So what's the point of this stern type part character of God, does this part of him help the human race in some way? Does it make us love him more?

Perhaps, but I think this part of him also makes most people hate him and blaspheme his name, whether saint or sinner, but it is a part of his character that we must understand in order to get the full picture of God and what purpose is there in this pain and suffering.

[Paul Hazelwood]

So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell  me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?

CHB

For me, God is the supreme power of the universe and is inherantly so because of his nature.   If God did not have a beginning and has always been and if God never changes, then inherantly what has always been just is.   God did not make himself nor does he have to work to remain as he is,  so no, God himself had nothing to do with his nature.

To say that he did still implies that God was once not what he is now and that he had something to do with him being of one nature and did something to become another nature.   That cannot be if God never changes, unless there is perhaps some precident or context that would imply that God once could change, but now cannot and never will again.  I suppose that is possible, but then that begs the question, what was God like before?  I think in these concepts we can speculate and invent just about whatever we want to invent when if we are going to believe scripture, scripture sets the precident.

The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not,  it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to.  You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.

I have a simple understanding of the concept that God has always existed, perhaps it is just more of a content feeling that God is and what he is, just is.

However with that said, I have also thought about myself in some kind of primitive way to compare the thought.   Do not misunderstand,  I am comparing myself to God in that "thought" only.

Perhaps I am content with that because I do not have any thought that I have not always existed in some manner.  I have no recollection of my birth, or coming into being, if perhaps at some point I actually did not exist I have no thought process about that.

As far as I know and as far as my perceptions know, I have always been alive.

[CHB]

The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not,  it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to.  You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.

Hi Paul,

What do you do with these verses?  (Luke 1:37)  For with God nothing shall be impossible.  (Gen. 18:14) Is any thing to hard for the Lord? (Jer. 32:27) Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord? (Matt. 19:26) With God ALL THINGS are possible. (Mark 10:27) For with God all things are possible. (Luke 18:27) The things that are impossible with men are possible with God.

Paul I don't expect any one to define any thing. I just base my beliefs on scripture, not just on someone's ideas, or how they see things because we all see things differently, which is fine with me.

I think we will just have wait and ask God if anything is impossible with him to be absolutely sure of all of this.   

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not,  it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to.  You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.

Hi Paul,

What do you do with these verses?  (Luke 1:37)  For with God nothing shall be impossible.  (Gen. 18:14) Is any thing to hard for the Lord? (Jer. 32:27) Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord? (Matt. 19:26) With God ALL THINGS are possible. (Mark 10:27) For with God all things are possible. (Luke 18:27) The things that are impossible with men are possible with God.

Paul I don't expect any one to define any thing. I just base my beliefs on scripture, not just on someone's ideas, or how they see things because we all see things differently, which is fine with me.

I think we will just have wait and ask God if anything is impossible with him to be absolutely sure of all of this.   

CHB

Hb 6:18 that through by two immutable matters, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong consolation, who are fleeing for refuge to lay hold of the expectation lying~ before us,


Have we done nothing more here than perhaps prove the bible contradicts itself after all?

[legoman]

I think like it or not, there are inherent restrictions in these statements.

"Nothing is impossible for God."
"It is impossible for God to lie."

What this really means is that God can do anything within His nature.  Again this ties back to the idea that God cannot do the illogical.

God can create this world, bring it to its knees, and then raise it back to glory.  God can indeed save all men.  All these things are surely possible.

Yet God cannot contradict Himself.  God cannot make Himself "Not God".  This would be tantamount to making A = !A in logic, or making 2+2=5.  God is love and God is truth, thus God cannot make Himself a lie, God cannot wink Himself out of existence, and likewise God cannot lie.

All things are possible with God, but God cannot do the illogical.

[thinktank]

Good answer legoman.

Possibly with God that He is someone that trancends himself. Is it against biblical parameters to sugest that God himself outdoes himself, just as an athlete who continually overcomes expectations. What if when God says all things are possible, he is simply stating that He knows deep within him that even though he may not have reached that certain goal yet, that He as God is totallly confident 100 certain that he will reach that goal. This theory gives room for God to expand and grow and yet at the same time make him able to do the impossible and for noone else to be like him. I find that will love it continually grows rather than just stay static, so would God also grow in love? wouldn't he have more love for one i.e increasing love for you if you obey the commandments "He that loveth me obeyeth my commandments" and do His will over someone who kills his prophets.

So in relation to evil, what I'm saying is that God had to overcome evil and this process, this fight is what this fallen world is about, for love to overcome evil and he works withinus His people in this fold every day to help us overcome it.

[micah7:9]

 I have see no eveidence of a "fallen" world. The reasoning that this world fell, its stating that God had lost hold of this world at sometime; that is not true.

Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

[thinktank]

That's another argument in itself, concerning Gods role inthis fallen world, did god design it or did he as a wise God make the most of it, make good out of evil, even if the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, this doesn't mean it had to be a plan, it could simply mean that God reacted to our fall by devising this plan, and knwoing the end before the begining he would know that he would do this plan in reaction to our fall.

But from yor point micah of God designing things to be evil (temporary)we still fell as your footnote says

when I am fallen

[Paul Hazelwood]

Good answer legoman.

Possibly with God that He is someone that trancends himself. Is it against biblical parameters to sugest that God himself outdoes himself, just as an athlete who continually overcomes expectations. What if when God says all things are possible, he is simply stating that He knows deep within him that even though he may not have reached that certain goal yet, that He as God is totallly confident 100 certain that he will reach that goal. This theory gives room for God to expand and grow and yet at the same time make him able to do the impossible and for noone else to be like him. I find that will love it continually grows rather than just stay static, so would God also grow in love? wouldn't he have more love for one i.e increasing love for you if you obey the commandments "He that loveth me obeyeth my commandments" and do His will over someone who kills his prophets.

So in relation to evil, what I'm saying is that God had to overcome evil and this process, this fight is what this fallen world is about, for love to overcome evil and he works withinus His people in this fold every day to help us overcome it.

Wouldn't your theory suggest that God changes, which scripture says he does not do?

If not, elaborate please.

[thinktank]

Yes the scripture says he does not change. But what does not change? Is it his power that does not change? Is it his love?

I suggest that His power does change, His Love does change, based on what I have read on the scriptures concerning his attitude towards certain prophets, but what does not change is that God is love, which guarantees us that we can trust in Him, that he is a rightoeus God.

However to say that God is a static entity and does not create or change I find difficult, because God creates all things new in revelation. At one time in history, in the begining there was only God, or the word, but then he added, created the heavens and the earth. Also if His love is unlimited that means it must grow, because if his love is static and it changes not, then how can His love be unlimited  :bigGrin: That's a challenging question I pose for you who put God in a cast and turn him into a ......statue   :mblush:  :Tongue in cheek:

I am sure there are dozens of scriptures where God changes his mind towards a person, he might say to kind David "I will destroy the Israelites" but then David repents of his sin and then God decides to have mercy on the Israelites, but punishes king David for his Sin.

[CHB]

TT, that happened to Nineveh.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

Yes the scripture says he does not change. But what does not change? Is it his power that does not change? Is it his love?

I suggest that His power does change, His Love does change, based on what I have read on the scriptures concerning his attitude towards certain prophets, but what does not change is that God is love, which guarantees us that we can trust in Him, that he is a rightoeus God.

However to say that God is a static entity and does not create or change I find difficult, because God creates all things new in revelation. At one time in history, in the begining there was only God, or the word, but then he added, created the heavens and the earth. Also if His love is unlimited that means it must grow, because if his love is static and it changes not, then how can His love be unlimited  :bigGrin: That's a challenging question I pose for you who put God in a cast and turn him into a ......statue   :mblush:  :Tongue in cheek:

I am sure there are dozens of scriptures where God changes his mind towards a person, he might say to kind David "I will destroy the Israelites" but then David repents of his sin and then God decides to have mercy on the Israelites, but punishes king David for his Sin.

The point I was illlustrating is that there is a context in which we can view things.   You post the scriptures that say nothing is impossible,  I posted a scripture showing something is impossible. 

So saying God never changes, doesn't mean God cannot do different things.  We can, I believe, say the context of what never changes is Gods nature.

God can have a nature of love that never changes and create unlimited numbers of worlds and realms.   God can have a nature that means that absolutely it is impossible for God to lie, and still understand that all things are possible through God.

So what is the context perhaps for that statement?  I believe the context is that whatever is possible, it is through God that it is possible.   This does not dictate that God can lie because that is NOT possible.

[micah7:9]

That's another argument in itself, concerning Gods role inthis fallen world, did god design it or did he as a wise God make the most of it, make good out of evil, even if the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, this doesn't mean it had to be a plan, it could simply mean that God reacted to our fall by devising this plan, and knwoing the end before the begining he would know that he would do this plan in reaction to our fall.

But from yor point micah of God designing things to be evil we still fell as your footnote says

when I am fallen

That "I" is me the individual.

[thinktank]

I agree with you on that point that God does not lie and that is impossible for Him, because he is rightoeus. I think perhaps if God only had love then he would be able to lie, because many times we human beings lie for the sake of love. But God however is not only love but he also has rightoeusness and lying to him is an abomination and he gives this quality of lying to the devil.

So when I said what changes is the degree of his love and power, and also something I left out, righteousness. These attributes I think grow and change, but these attributes are allways part of His character and these things do not change, so we can trust in Him that he is a righteous God. If he were to do the impossible and lie, then he would no longer be deemed as rightoeus and therefore He would be an unstable God, because rightoeusness is what keeps Him stable and dependable.

So he would no longer be God if he were to do the impossible and lie, his character would forever be broken, something He is not willing to compromise on.