Hey there folks. I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better. Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom. And as you would expect, they would have none of it. The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. , they said, "why wouldn't a simple scrape on the knee suffice", why so extreme? This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them. The idea of a loving God existing and allowing evil and suffering .
Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it. My faith is fine. I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical way. So I would appreciate some comments about this. :happy3:
Starting in Eden, the carnal mind is continually twisting our thoughts to convince us of lies.
Could a scraped knee knock Satan from his pinnacle of the temple?
Quote from: fullarmor2 on December 19, 2010, 10:46:28 PM
Hey there folks. I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better. Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom. And as you would expect, they would have none of it. The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. , they said, "why wouldn't a simple scrape on the knee suffice", why so extreme? This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them. The idea of a loving God existing and allowing evil and suffering .
Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it. My faith is fine. I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical way. So I would appreciate some comments about this. :happy3:
I also had this same problem, when we discussed it at the good and evil thread. I think that is once sees this as an experiment then it is extreme of God, but if one views it as overcoming evil, a very powerful force that has come to be, then one can understand that the scriptures says "for this reason was the Son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the devil"
Quote from: fullarmor2 on December 19, 2010, 10:46:28 PM
Hey there folks. I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better. Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom. And as you would expect, they would have none of it. The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. , they said, "why wouldn't a simple scrape on the knee suffice", why so extreme? This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them. The idea of a loving God existing and allowing evil and suffering .
Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it. My faith is fine. I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical way. So I would appreciate some comments about this. :happy3:
The struggle here is that a possible false premise always surrounds the issue of evil.
When you put God in the picture, the argument always asserts the premise of an all powerful limitless God which then causes the problem. Now in these discussions those terms are not always used, but they are always assumed especially so by atheists.
The first problem is the term "limitless" God is not limitless, limitless is a used mostly in a carnal way through the emotion of feeling that we have to depict God in our own idea of greatness and glory instead of what is actually true.
To start with God is not limiless if he cannot lie, but the problem then comes when a person cannot accept the association of limits to God as opposed to what the limits actually imply. If Gods nature absolutely prevents him from lying, then that is an absolute strength.
The second issue is the moral implications of the terms people apply to God. The idea that because God does something means it is inherantly good is problematic because it removes thought from the process and causes you to fail to believe that we CAN know what God will and will not do, what he can and cannot do.
God cannot lie, just accept it, if he can lie, then one day he might and call it good and what is anyone going to do about it if everything God does is good. See the flaw in the premise?
So I will stop here and ask you a direct question.
Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 21, 2010, 08:49:13 PM
Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?
I think so, but obviously God is taking the human race through an experience in evil. It is part of God's plan I believe. One of the things that helps me is to remember the finite nature of evil. It doesn't last. God only uses it or allows it for a temporary period of time.
And I remember how that the good things will be unending. So its my hope in how that I believe that God will set everything right sooner or later which provides comfort for me regarding evil. I have thought this many times, when I see something horrible in the World, name it, and I'll say to my self "this to will pass". A person may be suffering, but its only for a little while compared to eternity. I'm reminded of the scripture that says, "the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in Christ Jesus". Something like that. So I think the hope that we have in Christ is the only true antidote to the depressing affect which seeing evil around us can have on our hearts and minds.
Hi,
I tend to think of Job as an example for all of us. Look at the things that happened to Job, the same things that happen to us all at one time or another. Job had to deal with every kind of evil that happens to mankind but in the end God gave him more than he had in the beginning. What did Job learn from all of his trials? That God was in control and had Job's life in his hands. Job said "I have heard of you but now my eye sees you". So, Job repented, or saw just how powerful and how magnificent God was. I think Job is a lesson for all of us.
CHB
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: CHB on December 27, 2010, 10:00:25 PM
Hi,
I tend to think of Job as an example for all of us. Look at the things that happened to Job, the same things that happen to us all at one time or another. Job had to deal with every kind of evil that happens to mankind but in the end God gave him more than he had in the beginning. What did Job learn from all of his trials? That God was in control and had Job's life in his hands. Job said "I have heard of you but now my eye sees you". So, Job repented, or saw just how powerful and how magnificent God was. I think Job is a lesson for all of us.
CHB
Excellent point. I'm sure that Job took comfort in believing or knowing that God had his situation in control. Even being submissive and accepting regarding his trials. As if to say, well, since God is behind this anyway(and he trusts God), I will endure this for as long as God wants it to go on. It reminds me of Gethsemane where Jesus submitted to Father's will and accepted his cross experience. There is something powerful here I can't put a finger on. In submitting ourselves to the will of our Father and just trusting and keeping on loving.
My friend Ray made a good point. He pointed out how that there was a point where Job wanted an answer from God, or a reason for the suffering. And it did not come. And God reminded him, "where were you when I created the heavens"? or something like that. Meaning, don't question, just trust me. Not that its wrong to question, but just that its better to trust God and simply avoid the pitfalls which questioning, getting angry, bitter, ect.. can lead to.
:cloud9: I know studying Job has kept me sane during all my trials and tribulations :winkgrin:
Quote from: fullarmor2 on December 27, 2010, 09:11:32 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 21, 2010, 08:49:13 PM
Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?
I think so, but obviously God is taking the human race through an experience in evil. It is part of God's plan I believe. One of the things that helps me is to remember the finite nature of evil. It doesn't last. God only uses it or allows it for a temporary period of time.
And I remember how that the good things will be unending. So its my hope in how that I believe that God will set everything right sooner or later which provides comfort for me regarding evil. I have thought this many times, when I see something horrible in the World, name it, and I'll say to my self "this to will pass". A person may be suffering, but its only for a little while compared to eternity. I'm reminded of the scripture that says, "the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in Christ Jesus". Something like that. So I think the hope that we have in Christ is the only true antidote to the depressing affect which seeing evil around us can have on our hearts and minds.
I believe it is deeper than that, I think that we rationalize certain aspects of God into evil because false teachings are still poisoning the water.
Let me illustrate. If I read your responce correctly you believe God could have created our world without Evil, but did anyway? If that is not correct, then forgive my example here as it is not intending to slight you, it simply is showing the perspective I see in that.
Lets say I need to teach you something, through my instructions I inflict grevious harm to your body and you are seriously injured, you heal and believe all is well and are thankful for my instruction. Later you find out I could have taught you the same lesson, instilled the same value of teaching without inflicting all the pain and suffering.
Unless perhaps you have some sort of mental condition that causes you to love pain, I seriously doubt that you are going to trust me to give you any more lessons for anything, in fact, you may forgive me, but you will not see the righteousness in anything I have to teach anyone.
Why is it any different with God, why do we allow such things to be deemed righteous simply because we have been taught that anything God does is righteous?
This is exactly why Athiests for the most part do not trust the image of God from religion and UR has not resolved the problem of Evil is has only swept it under the rug with the rationalization that it is temporary. It's temporary nature does not make it good or righteous.
The question that I have studied and contemplated is what makes God righteous while understanding the reality that evil exists? For me it is because there is a nature of things that God cannot stop and many do not like to hear that because they have a false representation of what Gods glory actually is. People get offended over the idea that God is limited without contemplating the nature of that and only react to the word limited in referene to God. For example, God cannot lie, on the surface it casn be argued that God is weak because that would mean God cannot do anything. However, in reference to Gods Glory Gods inability to lie is a supreme strength.
So when we understand that evil is inherant to the process of becoming one with him because there is no other way it could be and God cannot change it, then the truth of a righteous God starts to manifest rather than something we might call an inconvenient truth.
From my perspective, creation was never a choice or a plan of Gods it is simply the nature of things. God is and our existance is a result of God existing. When we contemplate whether God is moral, I believe that is where UR can shine like a beacon. Our becoming one with God is supremely assured because of that nature.
I believe if God could "choose" to create, but in that process he would lose some of his creation, then the only thing a righteous being could do is not create.
I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.
You have said well Friend Paul! :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.
Paul, didn't God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 30, 2010, 01:27:22 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazlewood
I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.
Paul, didn't God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?
CHB
In the sense that it exists because of Gods nature of creation yes. However the question back to you is if God could have taught us all we needed to know without it?
In my example of instruction, would you trust me to teach you something after learning that I really didn't need to cause you physical harm to do so?
I'm one that believes God has lowered us into this condition, so that we'd have an experience of evil. Then He'll reconcile all His creation back to Himself, we'll have learned from it exactly what we're supposed to learn, be the better for it, appreciate how we're supposed to appreciate, know the difference between good and evil, darkness and light, and thus praise Him and love Him more than we ever could have before.
However, I know you've posted before Paul about this being the ONLY way God could have done it. It's never really exactly matched up for me before, but yesterday, when you said it again, that it must be the only way God could have done it - I started thinking "maybe so". And now tonight with your comment about "would you trust me if I could have done it some other way" - I'm still not sure, but I'm considering your POV on this as a real possibility. NOT THAT GOD DIDN'T DO IT - I believe all the "I create light/darkness", "does anything happen that I haven't done it/caused it" etc. verses - but MAYBE this is somehow, for some reason - some reason and some process I can't fully understand - that this could be the only way God could accomplish this. I know that sounds like it limits God, and that bothers me. But I think it's at least an idea worth entertaining. OR I COULD JUST TRUST HIM! LOL
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2010, 04:16:27 AM
I'm one that believes God has lowered us into this condition, so that we'd have an experience of evil. Then He'll reconcile all His creation back to Himself, we'll have learned from it exactly what we're supposed to learn, be the better for it, appreciate how we're supposed to appreciate, know the difference between good and evil, darkness and light, and thus praise Him and love Him more than we ever could have before.
However, I know you've posted before Paul about this being the ONLY way God could have done it. It's never really registered with me before, but yesterday, when you said again, that it must be the only way God could have done it - I started thinking "maybe so". I'm still not sure, but I'm considering it. NOT THAT GOD DIDN'T DO IT - I believe all the "I create light/darkness", "does anything happen that I haven't done it/caused it" etc. verses - but MAYBE this is somehow, for some reason - some reason and some process I can't fully understand - that this could be the only way God could accomplish this. I know that sounds like it limits God, and that bothers me. But I think it's at least an idea worth entertaining. OR I COULD JUST TRUST HIM! LOL
I understand that James, and there is nothing wrong with your trust. My trust in God has nothing to do with only trusting him if I have something logically worked out in my mind it is about whether I trust what people say about him.
I know that the God that has graced me with his presence did not "cause" or "plan" for me to do the horrible things I have done as a matter of some teaching tool, I can and do trust that is the truth in my life.
Some believe God did, and my postings in this thread are about not trusting what people say I should believe. I expect no less from others, I have no need or expectation that anyone should just believe me, everyone should study, contemplate, pray and walk with God in the light of their own revelations.
None of what I am saying has anything to do with suggesting that God is not in control, however there is a nature of all things and we CAN understand it, even if at any given moment we may not.
Religion has poinsoned us to a degree by causing many false beliefs to be reinforced through the fallacy of saying over and over and over and over and over again that "we cannot understand" that is a lie.
Since God is perfectly righteous, this is the only right way and thus the only way.
Because there is a perfect plan which causes all other plans to be imperfect.
We are in God's perfect plan.
makes sense Q
yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that. i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it. otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way. I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it. as far as the ONLY way, not sure.
i also don't think God makes us do sin. I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps. that's how we grow. all within his providence and parameters He sets. but we still have to make some choices. I've often chose to sin. I didn't put the option there, but I chose it. He disciplined me and taught me from it. i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic. :o :punish:
as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that. i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone. i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at. i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken. again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect. some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet. i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face. :bigGrin:
peace
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2010, 05:44:04 AM
makes sense Q
yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that. i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it. otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way. I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it. as far as the ONLY way, not sure.
i also don't think God makes us do sin. I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps. that's how we grow. all within his providence and parameters He sets. but we still have to make some choices. I've often chose to sin. I didn't put the option there, but I chose it. He disciplined me and taught me from it. i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic. :o :punish:
as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that. i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone. i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at. i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken. again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect. some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet. i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face. :bigGrin:
peace
Hi James, perhaps we do disagree but I will say this. When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding. What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.
I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it. That would be a lie.
Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 30, 2010, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2010, 05:44:04 AM
makes sense Q
yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that. i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it. otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way. I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it. as far as the ONLY way, not sure.
i also don't think God makes us do sin. I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps. that's how we grow. all within his providence and parameters He sets. but we still have to make some choices. I've often chose to sin. I didn't put the option there, but I chose it. He disciplined me and taught me from it. i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic. :o :punish:
as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that. i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone. i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at. i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken. again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect. some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet. i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face. :bigGrin:
peace
Hi James, perhaps we do disagree but I will say this. When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding. What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.
I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it. That would be a lie.
Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.
I agree with all my heart, it is one of the greatest lie.
Quote from: Quaesitor on December 30, 2010, 06:25:47 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 30, 2010, 05:52:56 PM
Quote from: jabcat on December 30, 2010, 05:44:04 AM
makes sense Q
yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that. i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it. otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way. I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it. as far as the ONLY way, not sure.
i also don't think God makes us do sin. I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps. that's how we grow. all within his providence and parameters He sets. but we still have to make some choices. I've often chose to sin. I didn't put the option there, but I chose it. He disciplined me and taught me from it. i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic. :o :punish:
as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that. i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone. i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at. i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken. again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect. some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet. i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face. :bigGrin:
peace
Hi James, perhaps we do disagree but I will say this. When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding. What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.
I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it. That would be a lie.
Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.
I agree with all my heart, it is one of the greatest lie.
On that point I don't disagree with anything you just said, and I've NEVER said we should just accept what others tell us. Our vision comes from God, He veils and reveals as He sees fit - and we're also to "search out matters". But based on earlier post(s), I'm talking about us, as mortal beings, being able to understand
all of God's ways or know/understand all that He does or is. Maybe this is where we disagree - or maybe you have much more understanding of the particular aspects of God's character than I do, including the evil topic as discussed above - but I personally think we all just have certain pieces of the picture. We do see through the glass darkly.
:bigGrin: I know in these type discussions, to "make the point", you don't like the use of the scripture of "God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts"; or maybe "who can know the mind of God". However, in this particular discussion this particular scripture came to mind;
For we know in part and we prophesy in part.. I Cor. 13:9
The Living Translation says it this way; Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!
Anyway, moving on. Blessings.
Hi Paul,
You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"
No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.
I know that man has a hard time dealing with the idea that God controls all the good and evil in the world, I wrestled with this for a long time. When I read that God created ALL things visible and invisible, to me all means all, just like the salvation of all.
Job is a perfect example of how God deals with man concerning evil. Could God have chosen a different method in teaching Job? Maybe, but in the end Job said, "I know that thou canst do EVERY THING and
that no thought can be withholden from thee." So Job repented in dust and ashes. Even though Job was supposedly a righteous man he learned a few things from his ordeal.
I doubt that we will ever fully know and understand this subject completely but it is one that is close to my heart.
Jabcat, I wrote a post earlier and while I was writing it disappeared and it was much better than this one. This makes twice this has happened. I guess the powers that be are working overtime? I just read your last post and it seems we were thinking of the same scripture.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 30, 2010, 08:25:49 PM
You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"
No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.
I want to respond to this but I would like an answer to this question from your perspective first if you do not mind because I believe the two questions I asked you in my last reply compliment one another in the point i want to make.
I also asked if you believe God could have created our world without evil. Maybe to enhance the question a little.
Do you believe God could have created our world without evil and achieved the same outcome of all men being saved and coming to the knowledge of truth?
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 30, 2010, 08:58:34 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 30, 2010, 08:25:49 PM
You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"
No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.
I want to respond to this but I would like an answer to this question from your perspective first if you do not mind because I believe the two questions I asked you in my last reply compliment one another in the point i want to make.
I also asked if you believe God could have created our world without evil. Maybe to enhance the question a little.
Do you believe God could have created our world without evil and achieved the same outcome of all men being saved and coming to the knowledge of truth?
Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil. But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all. The thing is, we don't know what would have been the best way to handle these things because we haven't experienced the end result yet. We humans try to use our reasonings to figure out God and I don't think it works sometimes. God knew in advance how we would turn out and how we would respond, what would be the best route, we don't. Take a potters vessel for instance, the vessel doesn't know which shape would look the best or how the potter should work to make the best piece of pottery for that particular piece of clay.
CHB
I struggle with these type of topics, and God is working on me to humble myself before Him and not [internally] "fight against Him".
That touched me C, thank you. :HeartThrob:
Answer to Paul, No.
Quote from: CHB on December 30, 2010, 10:14:38 PM
Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil.
It is impossible for God to be evil. It is impossible for God to lie. When coming from a false premise, ideas that manifest from that can also be false.
To rationalize that God could chose to be evil and choose to lie, he just doesn't, then allows the premise of "all God does is good" to allow the possibility for God to be evil and lie and then it would be good.
When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible. What we have to realize is that with a righteous being when we perceive a limitation it is an absolute strength. I believe it is an absolute strength that God could not even choose to lie or be evil because of what it means to have the knowledge of that absolute trust.
Quote
But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all.
That then creates a false representation of nothing is impossible. If nothing is impossible, then he could have taught us all we needed without evil and THAT would of been the best plan.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 05:57:27 AM
Quote from: CHB on December 30, 2010, 10:14:38 PM
Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil.
It is impossible for God to be evil. It is impossible for God to lie. When coming from a false premise, ideas that manifest from that can also be false.
To rationalize that God could chose to be evil and choose to lie, he just doesn't, then allows the premise of "all God does is good" to allow the possibility for God to be evil and lie and then it would be good.
When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible. What we have to realize is that with a righteous being when we perceive a limitation it is an absolute strength. I believe it is an absolute strength that God could not even choose to lie or be evil because of what it means to have the knowledge of that absolute trust.
Quote
But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all.
That then creates a false representation of nothing is impossible. If nothing is impossible, then he could have taught us all we needed without evil and THAT would of been the best plan.
Are we not created in God's image? Would you say it is impossible for man to be evil? Will it be possible for us to become evil after we are immortal. We will know evil will we not? We will have experienced and know first hand what evil is. Paul said "it is not I but sin that dwells in me".
How do you know teaching us without evil would have been the best plan? You do not know anything about before we were created and you know nothing about after we become immortal, so how can you know what is the best plan for us? You haven't experienced the beginning nor the end yet.
You said "When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible". It is impossible for us and the things we see around us. We don't have the power to change anything but God does.
Personally, I have thought in times past that if I was God I would have made everything perfect and skipped all of this suffering and dying. After much praying and studying and God opening my eyes I realize like Job that I am nothing but clay. Who am I to question God's motives?
I guess we will just have to wait and ask God some day if there are things that are impossible for him? I can't imagine that it is. I see God as being able to do anything he wants to do but there are things that he will not do because he has determined that that is the way it will be. He says he will do all of his pleasure. Could he change things? I think so. If it is impossible for God to do certain things then what is there that he won't be able to do in the future?
CHB
Perhaps God allowed man to fall because for some reason, the same faculties and capabilities a man would choose to do evil with are the same faculties of choice, decision making and responsibility that men will eventually be endowed with once all mankind is eventually conformed to Christ's image when God will be all in all...
And love, mercy, and forgiveness can only be possible if there is an opposing force or offending party.
He bound them all in disobedience, so He might have mercy on them all. (Romans 11: 32)
Furthermore,
Daniel 11:35 (New International Version, ©2010)
35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.
I think the presence of evil, though this is NOT God's nature nor is evil something we are called to operate in at all -- the presence of evil allows one to be tried... and it is only through trials that one can be strengthened and the test of one's love is made manifest.
Christ's love was shown when He asked the Father to forgive those who were reviling Him and nailing him to the cross. :winkgrin:
But eventually, the Lamb of God will make all things new, when the old things are gone we can finally all partake God's divine nature when He becomes All in All.
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on December 31, 2010, 04:52:44 PM
and it is only through trials that one can be strengthened and the test of one's love is made manifest.
Yes, that is the nature of things and God cannot change it because God does not change.
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Then he could undetermine it.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Then he could undetermine it.
Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Then he could undetermine it.
Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?
CHB
It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme. Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.
I just want everyone to know that I trust God and believe he is the only supreme force in the universe, none of what I am proposing is intended to lessen that aspect of God. I just have a belief that we can know more about God that we typically are led to believe.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 07:57:13 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Then he could undetermine it.
Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?
CHB
It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme. Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.
I think you are right, that there is not a force apart from God. So, if there is anything that is impossible for God it is because God willed for it to be that way? Would you agree with that?
CHB
I think forces that are apart from God are what man, angels, and demons propose to the extent that they are able to...
Though God is able to thwart each and every single step, God chooses NOT to do so...
And the will of God's creation is unlimited... It was subjected to God's curse against its will (Rom. 8: 19 - 20)... But all men will also be saved, and not of their own will (1 Tim. 2: 4).
John 1:3 (New International Version, ©2010)
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
While without Him, nothing was made that has been made existed -- His creation is endowed with certain freedoms to act, and even to rebel against Him, it is not of God's sanctioning per se... but God allowing it to happen.
"Now we do not yet see all things subject to Him." :winkgrin:
Sorry, I just have a different perspective on this.
I am at peace knowing that God is in control of it all and that everything will work out for the best for all mankind. Looking forward to the end result. God bless.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 01, 2011, 01:42:53 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 07:57:13 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 06:33:23 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 05:56:43 PM
Quote from: CHB on December 31, 2010, 05:35:26 PM
I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.
If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be. God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.
At least that is the way I see it. Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.
CHB
Then he could undetermine it.
Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?
CHB
It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme. Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.
I think you are right, that there is not a force apart from God. So, if there is anything that is impossible for God it is because God willed for it to be that way? Would you agree with that?
CHB
Perhaps our disagreement stems from our differing perception of what it means to have a "nature". If God never changes, and he has certain attributes, do you think it is reasonable to believe that whatever those attributes are were not willed into place, but are inherantly always been and impossible to change?
If he willed any of his attributes into being, that would suggest a change from one state of being to another.
Quote from: PaoloNuevo on January 01, 2011, 02:49:42 AM
I think forces that are apart from God are what man, angels, and demons propose to the extent that they are able to...
Though God is able to thwart each and every single step, God chooses NOT to do so...
And the will of God's creation is unlimited... It was subjected to God's curse against its will (Rom. 8: 19 - 20)... But all men will also be saved, and not of their own will (1 Tim. 2: 4).
John 1:3 (New International Version, ©2010)
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
While without Him, nothing was made that has been made existed -- His creation is endowed with certain freedoms to act, and even to rebel against Him, it is not of God's sanctioning per se... but God allowing it to happen.
"Now we do not yet see all things subject to Him." :winkgrin:
Hi pablo, I'm not making the case that something can exist without God I am saying that we are able to learn what the nature of what does exist consists of.
Quote from: CHB on January 01, 2011, 06:47:35 AM
Sorry, I just have a different perspective on this.
I am at peace knowing that God is in control of it all and that everything will work out for the best for all mankind. Looking forward to the end result. God bless.
CHB
No need to be sorry, I haven't implied that you have done anything wrong. Some people pursue their walk with God in differing ways, this is what I do.
Quote from: PaulPerhaps our disagreement stems from our differing perception of what it means to have a "nature". If God never changes, and he has certain attributes, do you think it is reasonable to believe that whatever those attributes are were not willed into place, but are inherantly always been and impossible to change?
QuoteIf he willed any of his attributes into being, that would suggest a change from one state of being to another.
:thumbsup: I so agree. God is what he is [or as he puts it, I AM WHAT I AM].
He will not change, and, therefore, everything is filtered through his unchanging nature which is GOODNESS.
...so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.--Mat 6: 45
The same is also true of people, btw, and unfortunately, they will not change either, absent an act of God. :sigh:
QuoteI so agree. God is what he is [or as he puts it, I AM WHAT I AM].
He will not change, and, therefore, everything is filtered through his unchanging nature which is GOODNESS.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on December 31, 2010, 09:06:50 PM
I just want everyone to know that I trust God and believe he is the only supreme force in the universe, none of what I am proposing is intended to lessen that aspect of God. I just have a belief that we can know more about God that we typically are led to believe.
Amen
This is a good thread and I think there has been some good points made on all sides. But like Phaze says I think it comes down to God's nature and whether that is an absolute strength or not. (It is.)
Can God lie?
Can God be evil?
If God is quote "all-powerful" and is absolutely righteous, then in His all-powerful ability can He make Himself absolutely un-righteous?
(No, no, and no).
We tend to get hung up on ideas about God "creating evil" or God "allowing evil" or God being in control of all things (including evil) because these things cause an emotional response (or outrage) that clouds our vision. But we can look at these same types of "problems", but using more benign examples.
Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?
(Again the answer is no, no, and no). You can say these are "limitations" if you like, maybe it is just semantics.
So we see that there are certain things that just must be the way they are. So when we apply this back to the problem of evil - why does evil exist - could God have made a universe without evil? - we can come to the same conclusion - things are this way because they must be this way. There was no other option to achieve a full understanding of the truth.
In particular: the question "could God have made a universe without evil?" - yes, God could have made a universe without evil; however this universe would not be sufficient for bringing all to a full understanding of the truth. Evil is a necessity because it MUST be so that we can learn the full knowledge of the truth.
And thus why we see verses that indicate God "creates evil", "causes evil", etc. It is not because God is evil. It is because it is necessary.
So in that sense God is limited due to His nature - His nature is love, and His nature is truth. Just as 2+2=5 cannot be because it is not logical (truth), so in the same way we cannot come to understand the full knowledge of ALL truth without experiencing evil. We could not learn how love overcomes evil if there was no evil. So if we realize that the ultimate goal here is for us all to be brought into the full knowledge and understanding of all truth - we realize that evil is necessary at least temporarily so that we will gain a permanent understanding of it.
Quote from: legoman on January 04, 2011, 06:41:14 PM
This is a good thread and I think there has been some good points made on all sides. But like Phaze says I think it comes down to God's nature and whether that is an absolute strength or not. (It is.)
Can God lie?
Can God be evil?
If God is quote "all-powerful" and is absolutely righteous, then in His all-powerful ability can He make Himself absolutely un-righteous?
(No, no, and no).
We tend to get hung up on ideas about God "creating evil" or God "allowing evil" or God being in control of all things (including evil) because these things cause an emotional response (or outrage) that clouds our vision. But we can look at these same types of "problems", but using more benign examples.
Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?
(Again the answer is no, no, and no). You can say these are "limitations" if you like, maybe it is just semantics.
So we see that there are certain things that just must be the way they are. So when we apply this back to the problem of evil - why does evil exist - could God have made a universe without evil? - we can come to the same conclusion - things are this way because they must be this way. There was no other option to achieve a full understanding of the truth.
Hi legoman,
Wasn't going to post any more on this but couldn't help myself, have to ask this question?
So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2011, 06:53:19 PM
Hi legoman,
Wasn't going to post any more on this but couldn't help myself, have to ask this question?
So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?
CHB
:dontknow:
I don't think I said or meant that...
Perhaps I am saying if God is righteous, He cannot choose to become unrighteous, because that in itself would destroy His quality of righteousness.
It is a complicated topic. We look at this from our human perspective in time and talk about us choosing, God choosing, etc. We are trying to describe an infinite God, who is outside of our timespace, using finite human terminology. But does God really choose, or is He simply just in a state of being - in a state of truth, love, righteousness?
And yes there is a lot of speculation here... simply because no one knows all the exact details of God's nature. But I am trying to use logic and reason to explain my views, and admittedly my views are not complete in any way. None of us has the whole picture.
Perhaps this is simply about God wanting to prove himself. With evil in existence at least temporary, God can prove and experience himself, not just know about it but fully Experience evil in it's hideous form, he became a weak servant like us to experience what evil is like, so that love may prevail. Perhaps from this experience, as the scripture says that through suffering he learned obedience to the father. Maybe the father wanted His son to go through and expericen evil so that his father can then give him All things to his Son to be enjoyed, even though the scriptures say he created all things, but also says that all things will be reconciled to him. So maybe its like Job, where God gives to his son the world universe and then GOD taketh away, from his Son the whole universe, losing Men, angels, All things being good, and losing his Heavenly glory by becoming a worm, like us. So the Son loses everything by the Fathers hand, a bit like what happened to Job, the lord giveth the lord taketh.
Perhaps the purpose of all this was to see whether his Son would still be obedient to the cross after all the evil that happened to his Son and his creation that he would still obey the Father and that as his reward he is given all things to be enjoyed for the rest of eternity with the promise of no more death.
Result being the Father and Son are closer than ever before, and their creation are reconcilled and are happy.
Quote from: legoman
Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?
(Again the answer is no, no, and no).
If God cannot make 2+2=5
or make himself be not God.
or make a rock so big he cannot lift it
Or change his nature
Then it would sound reasonable that God did not, nor cannot have anything to do with his nature of his being. Wouldn't you say that would be the logical conclusion?
CHB
There is a scripture which says "God cannot lie"
The devil is the Father of all lies.
So is it impossible for God to lie? I don't think so, because God is not a stranger to evil, he has directly caused destruction many times, but he is honest about it. But I believe it is against his character to lie, God is bold and honourable that's why Jesus says to Peter "Get behind me Satan" very direct and blunt "Bread not fit for dogs" to the woman, unlike the pharisees who would go to great lengths, to conceal their malice under their well crafted sentences, so as to attack the receiver without anyone else perceiving it.
So the point I'm making, does God need to lie? Why would the almight lie? This is what the devil does best and is the father of it.
Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2011, 08:00:11 PM
Quote from: legoman
Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?
(Again the answer is no, no, and no).
If God cannot make 2+2=5
or make himself be not God.
or make a rock so big he cannot lift it
Or change his nature
Then it would sound reasonable that God did not, nor cannot have anything to do with his nature of his being. Wouldn't you say that would be the logical conclusion?
CHB
Possibly, but it is difficult for me to wrap my head around the concept of something having no beginning.
Also it is a bit of funny question. God
is His nature - so of course He has something do with it. He
is it. Maybe I'm not understanding your question fully.
If God always existed, then He has always been, and thus always had His nature of being the way He is - so possibly your question becomes moot. Did God "have anything to do with His nature of being"? Why would He need to? He has always been that way right? There was never a point when He was not righteous and there was never a point when He will not be righteous. Again, its hard to understand because everything we have as a reference in this physical world has a beginning. God has no beginning.
These are deep questions which I cannot answer fully. :dontknow:
But in terms of what we experience in this physical reality of space & time, we see that evil exists, and we can hypothesize that evil exists because
it must be this way in the same way 2+2 must equal 4. If it could have been done some other way,
and still achieved the same end results, then surely God would have done it the way without evil. However since it is
this way, this
must be the only way to reach the desired result ie. gaining a full knowledge of the truth.
To me this is as reasonable and logical as proving 2+2=4. Others go down the road to say God did not intend evil to exist, or evil just happened and God was forced to "allow" it, but to me that invalidates the premise of what God is.
Just the way I see it and as best I can explain it.
Cheers...
Now if we establish that certain things must be the way the way they are and cannot be any other way in order to achieve the desired end result, then we can talk about intent and evil a bit.
A verse that says God causes evil does not mean God is evil. We have to understand there is an intent behind an action - and it is the intent that determines whether the actor is evil or not.
Example: slapping a baby could be viewed as an evil action. Yet what is the intent here? Perhaps the baby is choking and a good slap on its back will save its life. Perhaps the baby was just born and needs a slap to start it breathing. But on the other hand slapping a baby for no good reason is certainly an evil intent. The question is always intent.
We could say God causes/allows evil to cause much good to happen. This is the greater good theory. And then if we remember from the top that certain things must be the way the way they are, then we will realize why God causes/allows evil. It is because it must be that way so that the desired result - the greater good - will happen.
We see this idea of intent in Genesis 50:20 in the story of Joseph and his 12 evil brothers. The brothers intended it to happen for evil purposes - greed, jealousy, hate. But God intended it to happen for a MUCH MUCH greater good. Because of that event, Joseph ends up saving his entire nation, years later. Who would have saw that coming? No one except for God. God intended it. It had to happen that way to achieve the result that God intended.
Quote from: thinktank on January 04, 2011, 08:11:47 PM
There is a scripture which says "God cannot lie"
The devil is the Father of all lies.
So is it impossible for God to lie? I don't think so, because God is not a stranger to evil, he has directly caused destruction many times, but he is honest about it. But I believe it is against his character to lie, God is bold and honourable that's why Jesus says to Peter "Get behind me Satan" very direct and blunt "Bread not fit for dogs" to the woman, unlike the pharisees who would go to great lengths, to conceal their malice under their well crafted sentences, so as to attack the receiver without anyone else perceiving it.
So the point I'm making, does God need to lie? Why would the almight lie? This is what the devil does best and is the father of it.
It is always a fine line between "God does not lie" and "God cannot lie" and "It is impossible for God to lie".
Certainly we see in scripture that God does not lie in His own words and speaking. You are right in that there is no need for Him to lie directly.
Yet we also see in scripture that God sends out lying spirits, God sends out delusion, God hardens hearts. God uses Satan for a purpose, as we see in Job.
Again it is about intent. God does not have evil intent. Yet He does these actions, which could be perceived as evil if viewed alone. But we know there is more to it than a simple action of God sending out a lying spirit or God sending deception. The question is why? Why would He do these things?
And the answer is it must be this way if we are to come to a full understanding of the truth.
This sheds some light:
Romans 5:3 Not only so, but we also glory in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope.
Suffering produces perseverance, character, and hope: these are all good things. Can these things be produced in a way that does not involve suffering? I would say NO they cannot. So we can realize there is a greater good achieved from suffering - there is a necessity for suffering. Suffering comes about from evil, so we see there is a necessity for evil.
etc.
Suffering and evil will not always be needed, but they are a temporary necessity to achieve part of the desired end result.
Yes but the point im making is that God hates lies, yea it is an abomination to him according to the book of proverbs.
But God delights in punishment, discipline and judgment, so God expects us to bare our punishment without comlaining, such as Cain, that God said that his offering was not good enough, and then was saying you should not have your countance fallen Cain otherwise sin lieth at the door.
In many ways God is a old fashioned hard man, who likes to do things tough and rough, but because God is much bigger than us, he is also the tender hearted mercyfull God, this is why people say the God of the old testament is the miserable stern Father, while the God of the new testament is his compassionate, loving son, even though from evidence I have gathered, they are both the one and the same God, same person.
So what's the point of this stern type part character of God, does this part of him help the human race in some way? Does it make us love him more?
Perhaps, but I think this part of him also makes most people hate him and blaspheme his name, whether saint or sinner, but it is a part of his character that we must understand in order to get the full picture of God and what purpose is there in this pain and suffering.
Quote from: CHB on January 04, 2011, 06:53:19 PM
So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?
CHB
For me, God is the supreme power of the universe and is inherantly so because of his nature. If God did not have a beginning and has always been and if God never changes, then inherantly what has always been just is. God did not make himself nor does he have to work to remain as he is, so no, God himself had nothing to do with his nature.
To say that he did still implies that God was once not what he is now and that he had something to do with him being of one nature and did something to become another nature. That cannot be if God never changes, unless there is perhaps some precident or context that would imply that God once could change, but now cannot and never will again. I suppose that is possible, but then that begs the question, what was God like before? I think in these concepts we can speculate and invent just about whatever we want to invent when if we are going to believe scripture, scripture sets the precident.
The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not, it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to. You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.
I have a simple understanding of the concept that God has always existed, perhaps it is just more of a content feeling that God is and what he is, just is.
However with that said, I have also thought about myself in some kind of primitive way to compare the thought. Do not misunderstand, I am comparing myself to God in that
"thought" only.
Perhaps I am content with that because I do not have any thought that I have not always existed in some manner. I have no recollection of my birth, or coming into being, if perhaps at some point I actually did not exist I have no thought process about that.
As far as I know and as far as my perceptions know, I have always been alive.
Quote from: Paul hazelwood
The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not, it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to. You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.
Hi Paul,
What do you do with these verses? (Luke 1:37) For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Gen. 18:14) Is any thing to hard for the Lord? (Jer. 32:27) Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord? (Matt. 19:26) With God ALL THINGS are possible. (Mark 10:27) For with God all things are possible. (Luke 18:27) The things that are impossible with men are possible with God.
Paul I don't expect any one to define any thing. I just base my beliefs on scripture, not just on someone's ideas, or how they see things because we all see things differently, which is fine with me.
I think we will just have wait and ask God if anything is impossible with him to be absolutely sure of all of this.
CHB
Quote from: CHB on January 06, 2011, 02:42:08 AM
Quote from: Paul hazelwood
The scriptural precident is that there IS something that is impossible for God, like it or not, it is impossible for God to lie, there is no scriuptural precident that states God can lie, but chooses not to. You can believe that, but please, if you do believe that, do not expect someone else to define what they believe through a exact scripture lest you be hypocritical of your own beliefs.
Hi Paul,
What do you do with these verses? (Luke 1:37) For with God nothing shall be impossible. (Gen. 18:14) Is any thing to hard for the Lord? (Jer. 32:27) Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for the Lord? (Matt. 19:26) With God ALL THINGS are possible. (Mark 10:27) For with God all things are possible. (Luke 18:27) The things that are impossible with men are possible with God.
Paul I don't expect any one to define any thing. I just base my beliefs on scripture, not just on someone's ideas, or how they see things because we all see things differently, which is fine with me.
I think we will just have wait and ask God if anything is impossible with him to be absolutely sure of all of this.
CHB
Hb 6:18 that through by two immutable matters,
in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong consolation, who are fleeing for refuge to lay hold of the expectation lying~ before us,
Have we done nothing more here than perhaps prove the bible contradicts itself after all?
I think like it or not, there are inherent restrictions in these statements.
"Nothing is impossible for God."
"It is impossible for God to lie."
What this really means is that God can do anything within His nature. Again this ties back to the idea that God cannot do the illogical.
God can create this world, bring it to its knees, and then raise it back to glory. God can indeed save all men. All these things are surely possible.
Yet God cannot contradict Himself. God cannot make Himself "Not God". This would be tantamount to making A = !A in logic, or making 2+2=5. God is love and God is truth, thus God cannot make Himself a lie, God cannot wink Himself out of existence, and likewise God cannot lie.
All things are possible with God, but God cannot do the illogical.
Good answer legoman.
Possibly with God that He is someone that trancends himself. Is it against biblical parameters to sugest that God himself outdoes himself, just as an athlete who continually overcomes expectations. What if when God says all things are possible, he is simply stating that He knows deep within him that even though he may not have reached that certain goal yet, that He as God is totallly confident 100 certain that he will reach that goal. This theory gives room for God to expand and grow and yet at the same time make him able to do the impossible and for noone else to be like him. I find that will love it continually grows rather than just stay static, so would God also grow in love? wouldn't he have more love for one i.e increasing love for you if you obey the commandments "He that loveth me obeyeth my commandments" and do His will over someone who kills his prophets.
So in relation to evil, what I'm saying is that God had to overcome evil and this process, this fight is what this fallen world is about, for love to overcome evil and he works withinus His people in this fold every day to help us overcome it.
I have see no eveidence of a "fallen" world. The reasoning that this world fell, its stating that God had lost hold of this world at sometime; that is not true.
Isa 45:7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
That's another argument in itself, concerning Gods role inthis fallen world, did god design it or did he as a wise God make the most of it, make good out of evil, even if the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, this doesn't mean it had to be a plan, it could simply mean that God reacted to our fall by devising this plan, and knwoing the end before the begining he would know that he would do this plan in reaction to our fall.
But from yor point micah of God designing things to be evil (temporary)we still fell as your footnote says
when I am fallen
Quote from: thinktank on January 06, 2011, 06:06:27 PM
Good answer legoman.
Possibly with God that He is someone that trancends himself. Is it against biblical parameters to sugest that God himself outdoes himself, just as an athlete who continually overcomes expectations. What if when God says all things are possible, he is simply stating that He knows deep within him that even though he may not have reached that certain goal yet, that He as God is totallly confident 100 certain that he will reach that goal. This theory gives room for God to expand and grow and yet at the same time make him able to do the impossible and for noone else to be like him. I find that will love it continually grows rather than just stay static, so would God also grow in love? wouldn't he have more love for one i.e increasing love for you if you obey the commandments "He that loveth me obeyeth my commandments" and do His will over someone who kills his prophets.
So in relation to evil, what I'm saying is that God had to overcome evil and this process, this fight is what this fallen world is about, for love to overcome evil and he works withinus His people in this fold every day to help us overcome it.
Wouldn't your theory suggest that God changes, which scripture says he does not do?
If not, elaborate please.
Yes the scripture says he does not change. But what does not change? Is it his power that does not change? Is it his love?
I suggest that His power does change, His Love does change, based on what I have read on the scriptures concerning his attitude towards certain prophets, but what does not change is that God is love, which guarantees us that we can trust in Him, that he is a rightoeus God.
However to say that God is a static entity and does not create or change I find difficult, because God creates all things new in revelation. At one time in history, in the begining there was only God, or the word, but then he added, created the heavens and the earth. Also if His love is unlimited that means it must grow, because if his love is static and it changes not, then how can His love be unlimited :bigGrin: That's a challenging question I pose for you who put God in a cast and turn him into a ......statue :mblush: :Tongue in cheek:
I am sure there are dozens of scriptures where God changes his mind towards a person, he might say to kind David "I will destroy the Israelites" but then David repents of his sin and then God decides to have mercy on the Israelites, but punishes king David for his Sin.
TT, that happened to Nineveh.
CHB
Quote from: thinktank on January 06, 2011, 10:04:49 PM
Yes the scripture says he does not change. But what does not change? Is it his power that does not change? Is it his love?
I suggest that His power does change, His Love does change, based on what I have read on the scriptures concerning his attitude towards certain prophets, but what does not change is that God is love, which guarantees us that we can trust in Him, that he is a rightoeus God.
However to say that God is a static entity and does not create or change I find difficult, because God creates all things new in revelation. At one time in history, in the begining there was only God, or the word, but then he added, created the heavens and the earth. Also if His love is unlimited that means it must grow, because if his love is static and it changes not, then how can His love be unlimited :bigGrin: That's a challenging question I pose for you who put God in a cast and turn him into a ......statue :mblush: :Tongue in cheek:
I am sure there are dozens of scriptures where God changes his mind towards a person, he might say to kind David "I will destroy the Israelites" but then David repents of his sin and then God decides to have mercy on the Israelites, but punishes king David for his Sin.
The point I was illlustrating is that there is a context in which we can view things. You post the scriptures that say nothing is impossible, I posted a scripture showing something is impossible.
So saying God never changes, doesn't mean God cannot do different things. We can, I believe, say the context of what never changes is Gods nature.
God can have a nature of love that never changes and create unlimited numbers of worlds and realms. God can have a nature that means that absolutely it is impossible for God to lie, and still understand that all things are possible through God.
So what is the context perhaps for that statement? I believe the context is that whatever is possible, it is through God that it is possible. This does not dictate that God can lie because that is NOT possible.
Quote from: thinktank on January 06, 2011, 08:12:06 PM
That's another argument in itself, concerning Gods role inthis fallen world, did god design it or did he as a wise God make the most of it, make good out of evil, even if the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, this doesn't mean it had to be a plan, it could simply mean that God reacted to our fall by devising this plan, and knwoing the end before the begining he would know that he would do this plan in reaction to our fall.
But from yor point micah of God designing things to be evil we still fell as your footnote says
when I am fallen
That "I" is me the individual.
I agree with you on that point that God does not lie and that is impossible for Him, because he is rightoeus. I think perhaps if God only had love then he would be able to lie, because many times we human beings lie for the sake of love. But God however is not only love but he also has rightoeusness and lying to him is an abomination and he gives this quality of lying to the devil.
So when I said what changes is the degree of his love and power, and also something I left out, righteousness. These attributes I think grow and change, but these attributes are allways part of His character and these things do not change, so we can trust in Him that he is a righteous God. If he were to do the impossible and lie, then he would no longer be deemed as rightoeus and therefore He would be an unstable God, because rightoeusness is what keeps Him stable and dependable.
So he would no longer be God if he were to do the impossible and lie, his character would forever be broken, something He is not willing to compromise on.