Argument from evil.

[micah7:9]

Answer to Paul, No.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil.

It is impossible for God to be evil.  It is impossible for God to lie.  When coming from a false premise,  ideas that manifest from that can also be false.
To rationalize that God could chose to be evil and choose to lie, he just doesn't,  then allows the premise of "all God does is good" to allow the possibility for God to be evil and lie and then it would be good.

When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible.   What we have to realize is that with a righteous being when we perceive a limitation it is an absolute strength.   I believe it is an absolute strength that God could not even choose to lie or be evil because of what it means to have the knowledge of that absolute trust.

But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all.

That then creates a false representation of nothing is impossible.   If nothing is impossible, then he could have taught us all we needed without evil and THAT would of been the best plan.   

[CHB]

Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil.

It is impossible for God to be evil.  It is impossible for God to lie.  When coming from a false premise,  ideas that manifest from that can also be false.
To rationalize that God could chose to be evil and choose to lie, he just doesn't,  then allows the premise of "all God does is good" to allow the possibility for God to be evil and lie and then it would be good.

When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible.   What we have to realize is that with a righteous being when we perceive a limitation it is an absolute strength.   I believe it is an absolute strength that God could not even choose to lie or be evil because of what it means to have the knowledge of that absolute trust.

But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all.

That then creates a false representation of nothing is impossible.   If nothing is impossible, then he could have taught us all we needed without evil and THAT would of been the best plan.

Are we not created in God's image? Would you say it is impossible for man to be evil?  Will it be possible for us to become evil after we are immortal. We will know evil will we not? We will have experienced and know first hand what evil is. Paul said "it is not I but sin that dwells in me". 

How do you know teaching us without evil would have been the best plan? You do not know anything about before we were created and you know nothing about after we become  immortal, so how can you know what is the best plan for us? You haven't experienced the beginning nor the end yet.

You said "When something has a nature that never changes then the change of that nature to a different nature is absolutely impossible".  It is impossible for us and the things we see around us. We don't have the power to change anything but God does.

Personally, I have thought in times past that if I was God I would have made everything perfect and skipped all of this suffering and dying. After much praying and studying and God opening my eyes I realize like Job that I am nothing but clay. Who am I to question God's motives?

I guess we will just have to wait and ask God some day if there are things that are impossible for him? I can't imagine that it is. I see God as being able to do anything he wants to do but there are things that he will not do because he has determined that that is the way it will be. He says he will do all of his pleasure. Could he change things? I think so.  If it is impossible for God to do certain things then what is there that he won't be able to do in the future?

CHB

[PaoloNuevo]

Perhaps God allowed man to fall because for some reason, the same faculties and capabilities a man would choose to do evil with are the same faculties of choice, decision making and responsibility that men will eventually be endowed with once all mankind is eventually conformed to Christ's image when God will be all in all...

And love, mercy, and forgiveness can only be possible if there is an opposing force or offending party.

He bound them all in disobedience, so He might have mercy on them all. (Romans 11: 32)

Furthermore,

Daniel 11:35 (New International Version, ©2010)

35 Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time.

I think the presence of evil, though this is NOT God's nature nor is evil something we are called to operate in at all -- the presence of evil allows one to be tried... and it is only through trials that one can be strengthened and the test of one's love is made manifest.

Christ's love was shown when He asked the Father to forgive those who were reviling Him and nailing him to the cross.  :winkgrin:

But eventually, the Lamb of God will make all things new, when the old things are gone we can finally all partake God's divine nature when He becomes All in All.

[Paul Hazelwood]

and it is only through trials that one can be strengthened and the test of one's love is made manifest.

Yes, that is the nature of things and God cannot change it because God does not change.

[CHB]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

Then he could undetermine it.

[CHB]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

Then he could undetermine it.

Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

Then he could undetermine it.

Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?

CHB

It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme.  Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just want everyone to know that I trust God and believe he is the only supreme force in the universe, none of what I am proposing is intended to lessen that aspect of God.   I just have a belief that we can know more about God that we typically are led to believe. 

[CHB]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

Then he could undetermine it.

Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?

CHB

It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme.  Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.

I think you are right, that there is not a force apart from God. So, if there is anything that is impossible for God it is because God willed for it to be that way? Would you agree with that?

CHB

[PaoloNuevo]

I think forces that are apart from God are what man, angels, and demons propose to the extent that they are able to...

Though God is able to thwart each and every single step, God chooses NOT to do so...

And the will of God's creation is unlimited... It was subjected to God's curse against its will (Rom. 8: 19 - 20)... But all men will also be saved, and not of their own will (1 Tim. 2: 4).

John 1:3 (New International Version, ©2010)

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

While without Him, nothing was made that has been made existed -- His creation is endowed with certain freedoms to act, and even to rebel against Him, it is not of God's sanctioning per se... but God allowing it to happen.

"Now we do not yet see all things subject to Him."   :winkgrin:

[CHB]

Sorry, I just have a different perspective on this.

I am at peace knowing that God is in control of it all and that everything will work out for the best for all mankind. Looking forward to the end result. God bless.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I just thought of something that I think may answer our question about things being possible and impossible with God.

If any thing is impossible with God, that is the way he determined it to be.  God is still in control of the things that he made impossible. It is impossible only because he made it so.

At least that is the way I see it.  Palo, what you said made sense. Just one thing I don't think God ALLOWED, I think he planned it all.

CHB

Then he could undetermine it.

Have you thought of it like this? If there is a force that exists apart from God that makes it impossible for God to do certain things, wouldn't that make this force more powerful than God?
What other things might it decide that was impossible for God?

CHB

It isn't necessary for there to be a force apart from God, God himself has a nature that makes it impossible for certain things to be and that inherant nature is supreme.  Since there is NOT a force apart from God, then we can be assured that there is nothing stronger than God no matter what we learn about him.

I think you are right, that there is not a force apart from God. So, if there is anything that is impossible for God it is because God willed for it to be that way? Would you agree with that?

CHB

Perhaps our disagreement stems from our differing perception of what it means to have a "nature".   If God never changes, and he has certain attributes, do you think it is reasonable to believe that whatever those attributes are were not willed into place, but are inherantly always been and impossible to change?

If he willed any of his attributes into being, that would suggest a change from one state of being to another.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I think forces that are apart from God are what man, angels, and demons propose to the extent that they are able to...

Though God is able to thwart each and every single step, God chooses NOT to do so...

And the will of God's creation is unlimited... It was subjected to God's curse against its will (Rom. 8: 19 - 20)... But all men will also be saved, and not of their own will (1 Tim. 2: 4).

John 1:3 (New International Version, ©2010)

3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

While without Him, nothing was made that has been made existed -- His creation is endowed with certain freedoms to act, and even to rebel against Him, it is not of God's sanctioning per se... but God allowing it to happen.

"Now we do not yet see all things subject to Him."   :winkgrin:

Hi pablo, I'm not making the case that something can exist without God I am saying that we are able to learn what the nature of what does exist consists of.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Sorry, I just have a different perspective on this.

I am at peace knowing that God is in control of it all and that everything will work out for the best for all mankind. Looking forward to the end result. God bless.

CHB

No need to be sorry, I haven't implied that you have done anything wrong.   Some people pursue their walk with God in differing ways, this is what I do.

[Molly]

Perhaps our disagreement stems from our differing perception of what it means to have a "nature".   If God never changes, and he has certain attributes, do you think it is reasonable to believe that whatever those attributes are were not willed into place, but are inherantly always been and impossible to change?

If he willed any of his attributes into being, that would suggest a change from one state of being to another.

:thumbsup:  I so agree.  God is what he is [or as he puts it, I AM WHAT I AM].

He will not change, and, therefore, everything is filtered through his unchanging nature which is GOODNESS.

...so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.
--Mat 6: 45


The same is also true of people, btw, and unfortunately, they will not change either, absent an act of God. :sigh:

[PaoloNuevo]

I so agree.  God is what he is [or as he puts it, I AM WHAT I AM].

He will not change, and, therefore, everything is filtered through his unchanging nature which is GOODNESS.

:thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

I just want everyone to know that I trust God and believe he is the only supreme force in the universe, none of what I am proposing is intended to lessen that aspect of God.   I just have a belief that we can know more about God that we typically are led to believe.

Amen

[legoman]

This is a good thread and I think there has been some good points made on all sides.  But like Phaze says I think it comes down to God's nature and whether that is an absolute strength or not.  (It is.)

Can God lie?
Can God be evil?
If God is quote "all-powerful" and is absolutely righteous, then in His all-powerful ability can He make Himself absolutely un-righteous?

(No, no, and no).

We tend to get hung up on ideas about God "creating evil" or God "allowing evil" or God being in control of all things (including evil) because these things cause an emotional response (or outrage) that clouds our vision.  But we can look at these same types of "problems", but using more benign examples.

Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?

(Again the answer is no, no, and no).  You can say these are "limitations" if you like, maybe it is just semantics.

So we see that there are certain things that just must be the way they are.  So when we apply this back to the problem of evil - why does evil exist - could God have made a universe without evil? - we can come to the same conclusion - things are this way because they must be this way.  There was no other option to achieve a full understanding of the truth.

In particular: the question "could God have made a universe without evil?" - yes, God could have made a universe without evil; however this universe would not be sufficient for bringing all to a full understanding of the truth.  Evil is a necessity because it MUST be so that we can learn the full knowledge of the truth.

And thus why we see verses that indicate God "creates evil", "causes evil", etc.  It is not because God is evil.  It is because it is necessary.

So in that sense God is limited due to His nature - His nature is love, and His nature is truth.  Just as 2+2=5 cannot be because it is not logical (truth), so in the same way we cannot come to understand the full knowledge of ALL truth without experiencing evil.  We could not learn how love overcomes evil if there was no evil.  So if we realize that the ultimate goal here is for us all to be brought into the full knowledge and understanding of all truth - we realize that evil is necessary at least temporarily so that we will gain a permanent understanding of it.

[CHB]

This is a good thread and I think there has been some good points made on all sides.  But like Phaze says I think it comes down to God's nature and whether that is an absolute strength or not.  (It is.)

Can God lie?
Can God be evil?
If God is quote "all-powerful" and is absolutely righteous, then in His all-powerful ability can He make Himself absolutely un-righteous?

(No, no, and no).

We tend to get hung up on ideas about God "creating evil" or God "allowing evil" or God being in control of all things (including evil) because these things cause an emotional response (or outrage) that clouds our vision.  But we can look at these same types of "problems", but using more benign examples.

Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?

(Again the answer is no, no, and no).  You can say these are "limitations" if you like, maybe it is just semantics.

So we see that there are certain things that just must be the way they are.  So when we apply this back to the problem of evil - why does evil exist - could God have made a universe without evil? - we can come to the same conclusion - things are this way because they must be this way.  There was no other option to achieve a full understanding of the truth.

Hi legoman,

Wasn't going to post any more on this but couldn't help myself, have to ask this question?

So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell  me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?

CHB

[legoman]

Hi legoman,

Wasn't going to post any more on this but couldn't help myself, have to ask this question?

So, are you saying God didn't, nor cannot have any thing to do with whether he is righteous or all powerful? He has nothing to do with his nature of being? Please show scripture or tell  me how you know this. Isn't this just speculation?

CHB

:dontknow:

I don't think I said or meant that...

Perhaps I am saying if God is righteous, He cannot choose to become unrighteous, because that in itself would destroy His quality of righteousness.

It is a complicated topic.  We look at this from our human perspective in time and talk about us choosing, God choosing, etc.   We are trying to describe an infinite God, who is outside of our timespace, using finite human terminology. But does God really choose, or is He simply just in a state of being - in a state of truth, love, righteousness?

[legoman]

And yes there is a lot of speculation here... simply because no one knows all the exact details of God's nature.  But I am trying to use logic and reason to explain my views, and admittedly my views are not complete in any way.  None of us has the whole picture.

[thinktank]

Perhaps this is simply about God wanting to prove himself. With evil in existence at least temporary, God can prove and experience himself, not just know about it but fully Experience evil in it's hideous form, he became a weak servant like us to experience what evil is like, so that love may prevail. Perhaps from this experience, as the scripture says that through suffering he learned obedience to the father. Maybe the father wanted His son to go through and expericen evil so that his father can then give him All things to his Son to be enjoyed, even though the scriptures say he created all things, but also says that all things will be reconciled to him. So maybe its like Job, where God gives to his son the world universe and then GOD taketh away, from his Son the whole universe, losing Men, angels, All things being good, and losing his Heavenly glory by becoming a worm, like us. So the Son loses everything by the Fathers hand, a bit like what happened to Job, the lord giveth the lord taketh.

Perhaps the purpose of all this was to see whether his Son would still be obedient to the cross after all the evil that happened to his Son and his creation that he would still obey the Father and that as his reward he is given all things to be enjoyed for the rest of eternity with the promise of no more death.

Result being the Father and Son are closer than ever before, and their creation are reconcilled and are happy.

[CHB]

Can God make 2+2=5?
Can God make Himself be "not God"?
Can God make a rock so big that even He cannot lift it?

(Again the answer is no, no, and no).

If God cannot make 2+2=5
or make himself be not God.
or make a rock so big he cannot lift it
Or change his nature

Then it would sound reasonable that God did not, nor cannot have anything to do with his nature of his being. Wouldn't you say that would be the logical conclusion?

CHB