Argument from evil.

[fullarmor2]

  Hey there folks.  I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better.  Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom.     And as you would expect,  they would have none of it.    The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. ,     they said, "why wouldn't  a simple scrape on the knee suffice",    why so extreme?     This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them.  The idea of a loving God  existing and allowing evil and suffering .
   Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it.  My faith is fine.  I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical  way.      So I would appreciate some comments about this.  :happy3:     

[Beloved Servant]

Starting in Eden, the carnal mind is continually twisting our thoughts to convince us of lies.

Could a scraped knee knock Satan from his pinnacle of the temple?

[thinktank]

  Hey there folks.  I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better.  Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom.     And as you would expect,  they would have none of it.    The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. ,     they said, "why wouldn't  a simple scrape on the knee suffice",    why so extreme?     This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them.  The idea of a loving God  existing and allowing evil and suffering .
   Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it.  My faith is fine.  I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical  way.      So I would appreciate some comments about this.  :happy3:     

I also had this same problem, when we discussed it at the good and evil thread. I think that is once sees this as an experiment then it is extreme of God, but if one views it as overcoming evil, a very powerful force that has come to be, then one can understand that the scriptures says "for this reason was the Son of God manifest, to destroy the works of the devil"

[Paul Hazelwood]

  Hey there folks.  I was discussing the topic the other day with some atheists. I was pointing out that evil is part of God's plan and that God uses it as an experience for us to make us better.  Also that our experience in evil will serve as a contrast for us in the next life, helping us to appreciate all the goodness in God's kingdom.     And as you would expect,  they would have none of it.    The thing that they said, which I'm interested in hearing a response to here, is they had a problem with how bad evil can be, birth defects, starving children, disease, etc.. ,     they said, "why wouldn't  a simple scrape on the knee suffice",    why so extreme?     This is an unacceptable inconsistency even in U.R. theology according to them.  The idea of a loving God  existing and allowing evil and suffering .
   Also, I'm not posting this because I'm struggling with it.  My faith is fine.  I'm simply interested in this in a philosophical  way.      So I would appreciate some comments about this.  :happy3:     

The struggle here is that a possible false premise always surrounds the issue of evil.

When you put God in the picture, the argument always asserts the premise of an all powerful limitless God which then causes the problem.  Now in these discussions those terms are not always used, but they are always assumed especially so by atheists.

The first problem is the term "limitless"  God is not limitless, limitless is a used mostly in a carnal way through the emotion of feeling that we have to depict God in our own idea of greatness and glory instead of what is actually true.

To start with God is not limiless if he cannot lie,  but the problem then comes when a person cannot accept the association of limits to God as opposed to what the limits actually imply.   If Gods nature absolutely prevents him from lying, then that is an absolute strength. 

The second issue is the moral implications of the terms people apply to God.    The idea that because God does something means it is inherantly good is problematic because it removes thought from the process and causes you to fail to believe that we CAN know what God will and will not do, what he can and cannot do.

God cannot lie,  just accept it,  if he can lie, then one day he might and call it good and what is anyone going to do about it if everything God does is good.  See the flaw in the premise?

So I will stop here and ask you a direct question.

Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?   

[fullarmor2]

Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?

I think so,  but obviously God is taking the human race through an experience in evil. It is part of God's plan I believe.  One of the things that helps me is to remember the finite nature of evil.  It doesn't last.  God only uses it or allows it for a temporary period of time.
And I remember how that the good things will be unending.  So its my hope in how that I believe that God will set everything right sooner or later which provides comfort for me regarding evil.  I  have thought this many times,  when I see something horrible in the World,  name it,    and I'll say to my self "this to will pass".   A person may be suffering, but its only for a  little while compared to eternity.  I'm reminded of the scripture that says, "the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in Christ Jesus".  Something like that.     So I think the hope that we have in Christ is the only true antidote to the depressing affect which seeing evil around us can have on our hearts and minds.

[CHB]

Hi,

I tend to think of Job as an example for all of us. Look at the things that happened to Job, the same things that happen to us all at one time or another. Job had to deal with every kind of evil that happens to mankind but in the end God gave him more than he had in the beginning. What did Job learn from all of his trials? That God was in control and had Job's life in his hands. Job said "I have heard of you but now my eye sees you". So, Job repented, or saw just how powerful and how magnificent God was. I think Job is a lesson for all of us.

CHB   

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: :thumbsup:

[fullarmor2]

Hi,

I tend to think of Job as an example for all of us. Look at the things that happened to Job, the same things that happen to us all at one time or another. Job had to deal with every kind of evil that happens to mankind but in the end God gave him more than he had in the beginning. What did Job learn from all of his trials? That God was in control and had Job's life in his hands. Job said "I have heard of you but now my eye sees you". So, Job repented, or saw just how powerful and how magnificent God was. I think Job is a lesson for all of us.

CHB

Excellent point.  I'm sure that Job took comfort in believing or knowing that God had his situation in control.  Even being submissive and accepting regarding his trials. As if to say,  well,  since God is behind this anyway(and he trusts God),   I will endure this for as long as God wants it to go on.   It reminds me of Gethsemane where Jesus submitted to Father's will and accepted his cross experience.  There is something powerful here I can't put a finger on. In submitting ourselves to the will of our Father and just trusting and keeping on loving. 

[fullarmor2]

My friend Ray made a good point. He pointed out how that there was a point where Job wanted an answer from God, or a reason for the suffering.  And it did not come.  And God reminded him, "where were you when I created the heavens"?   or something like that.  Meaning,   don't question,  just trust me.   Not that its wrong to question, but just that its better to trust God and simply avoid the pitfalls which questioning, getting angry, bitter, ect.. can lead to.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I know studying Job has kept me sane during all my trials and tribulations  :winkgrin:

[Paul Hazelwood]

Could have God created our world without evil in it or not?

I think so,  but obviously God is taking the human race through an experience in evil. It is part of God's plan I believe.  One of the things that helps me is to remember the finite nature of evil.  It doesn't last.  God only uses it or allows it for a temporary period of time.
And I remember how that the good things will be unending.  So its my hope in how that I believe that God will set everything right sooner or later which provides comfort for me regarding evil.  I  have thought this many times,  when I see something horrible in the World,  name it,    and I'll say to my self "this to will pass".   A person may be suffering, but its only for a  little while compared to eternity.  I'm reminded of the scripture that says, "the sufferings of this life are not worthy to be compared to the glory that shall be revealed in Christ Jesus".  Something like that.     So I think the hope that we have in Christ is the only true antidote to the depressing affect which seeing evil around us can have on our hearts and minds.

I believe it is deeper than that, I think that we rationalize certain aspects of God into evil because false teachings are still poisoning the water.

Let me illustrate.  If I read your responce correctly you believe God could have created our world without Evil, but did anyway?  If that is not correct, then forgive my example here as it is not intending to slight you, it simply is showing the perspective I see in that.


Lets say I need to teach you something,  through my instructions I inflict grevious harm to your body and you are seriously injured, you heal and believe all is well and are thankful for my instruction.  Later you find out I could have taught you the same lesson, instilled the same value of teaching without inflicting all the pain and suffering.

Unless perhaps you have some sort of mental condition that causes you to love pain, I seriously doubt that you are going to trust me to give you any more lessons for anything, in fact, you may forgive me, but you will not see the righteousness in anything I have to teach anyone.

Why is it any different with God, why do we allow such things to be deemed righteous simply because we have been taught that anything God does is righteous?

This is exactly why Athiests for the most part do not trust the image of God from religion and UR has not resolved the problem of Evil is has only swept it under the rug with the rationalization that it is temporary.  It's temporary nature does not make it good or righteous.

The  question that I have studied and contemplated is what makes God righteous while understanding the reality that evil exists?  For me it is because there is a nature of things that God cannot stop and many do not like to hear that because they have a false representation of what Gods glory actually is.  People get offended over the idea that God is limited without contemplating the nature of that and only react to the word limited in referene to God.   For example, God cannot lie, on the surface it casn be argued that God is weak because that would mean God cannot do anything.  However, in reference to Gods Glory Gods inability to lie is a supreme strength.

So when we understand that evil is inherant to the process of becoming one with him because there is no other way it could be and God cannot change it, then the truth of a righteous God starts to manifest rather than something we might call an inconvenient truth. 

From my perspective, creation was never a choice or a plan of Gods it is simply the nature of things.  God is and our existance is a result of God existing.  When we contemplate whether God is moral, I believe that is where UR can shine like a beacon.  Our becoming one with God is supremely assured because of that nature.

I believe if God could "choose" to create, but in that process he would lose some of his creation, then the only thing a righteous being could do is not create.

I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.

[micah7:9]

You have said well Friend Paul! :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:

[CHB]

I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.

Paul, didn't God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

I also believe the same righteous god would not introduce evil onto us if there was another way.

Paul, didn't God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden?

CHB

In the sense that it exists because of Gods nature of creation yes.  However the question back to you is if God could have taught us all we needed to know without it?

In my example of instruction, would you trust me to teach you something after learning that I really didn't need to cause you physical harm to do so?

[jabcat]

I'm one that believes God has lowered us into this condition, so that we'd have an experience of evil.  Then He'll reconcile all His creation back to Himself, we'll have learned from it exactly what we're supposed to learn, be the better for it, appreciate how we're supposed to appreciate, know the difference between good and evil, darkness and light, and thus praise Him and love Him more than we ever could have before.

However, I know you've posted before Paul about this being the ONLY way God could have done it.  It's never really exactly matched up for me before, but yesterday, when you said it again, that it must be the only way God could have done it - I started thinking "maybe so".   And now tonight with your comment about "would you trust me if I could have done it some other way" - I'm still not sure, but I'm considering your POV on this as a real possibility.  NOT THAT GOD DIDN'T DO IT - I believe all the "I create light/darkness", "does anything happen that I haven't done it/caused it" etc. verses - but MAYBE this is somehow, for some reason - some reason and some process I can't fully understand - that this could be the only way God could accomplish this.  I know that sounds like it limits God, and that bothers me.  But I think it's at least an idea worth entertaining.  OR I COULD JUST TRUST HIM!  LOL

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm one that believes God has lowered us into this condition, so that we'd have an experience of evil.  Then He'll reconcile all His creation back to Himself, we'll have learned from it exactly what we're supposed to learn, be the better for it, appreciate how we're supposed to appreciate, know the difference between good and evil, darkness and light, and thus praise Him and love Him more than we ever could have before.

However, I know you've posted before Paul about this being the ONLY way God could have done it.  It's never really registered with me before, but yesterday, when you said again, that it must be the only way God could have done it - I started thinking "maybe so".  I'm still not sure, but I'm considering it.  NOT THAT GOD DIDN'T DO IT - I believe all the "I create light/darkness", "does anything happen that I haven't done it/caused it" etc. verses - but MAYBE this is somehow, for some reason - some reason and some process I can't fully understand - that this could be the only way God could accomplish this.  I know that sounds like it limits God, and that bothers me.  But I think it's at least an idea worth entertaining.  OR I COULD JUST TRUST HIM!  LOL

I understand that James, and there is nothing wrong with your trust.  My trust in God has nothing to do with only trusting him if I have something logically worked out in my mind it is about whether I trust what people say about him.

I know that the God that has graced me with his presence did not "cause" or "plan" for me to do the horrible things I have done as a matter of some teaching tool,  I can and do trust that is the truth in my life.

Some believe God did, and my postings in this thread are about not trusting what people say I should believe.  I expect no less from others, I have no need or expectation that anyone should just believe me, everyone should study, contemplate, pray and walk with God in the light of their own revelations.

None of what I am saying has anything to do with suggesting that God is not in control, however there is a nature of all things and we CAN understand it, even if at any given moment we may not.

Religion has poinsoned us to a degree by causing many false beliefs to be reinforced through the fallacy of saying over and over and over and over and over again that "we cannot understand"  that is a lie.

[Quaesitor]

Since God is perfectly righteous, this is the only right way and thus the only way.
Because there is a perfect plan which causes all other plans to be imperfect.
We are in God's perfect plan.

[jabcat]

makes sense Q

yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that.  i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it.  otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way.  I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it.  as far as the ONLY way, not sure.

i also don't think God makes us do sin.  I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps.  that's how we grow.  all within his providence and parameters He sets.  but we still have to make some choices.  I've often chose to sin.  I didn't put the option there, but I chose it.  He disciplined me and taught me from it.  i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic.  :o   :punish:

as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that.  i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone.  i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at.  i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken.   again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect.  some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet.  i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face.   :bigGrin:

peace

[Paul Hazelwood]

makes sense Q

yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that.  i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it.  otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way.  I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it.  as far as the ONLY way, not sure.

i also don't think God makes us do sin.  I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps.  that's how we grow.  all within his providence and parameters He sets.  but we still have to make some choices.  I've often chose to sin.  I didn't put the option there, but I chose it.  He disciplined me and taught me from it.  i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic.  :o   :punish:

as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that.  i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone.  i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at.  i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken.   again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect.  some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet.  i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face.   :bigGrin:

peace

Hi James,  perhaps we do disagree but I will say this.   When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding.  What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.

I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it.   That would be a lie.

Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.

[Quaesitor]

makes sense Q

yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that.  i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it.  otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way.  I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it.  as far as the ONLY way, not sure.

i also don't think God makes us do sin.  I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps.  that's how we grow.  all within his providence and parameters He sets.  but we still have to make some choices.  I've often chose to sin.  I didn't put the option there, but I chose it.  He disciplined me and taught me from it.  i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic.  :o   :punish:

as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that.  i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone.  i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at.  i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken.   again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect.  some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet.  i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face.   :bigGrin:

peace

Hi James,  perhaps we do disagree but I will say this.   When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding.  What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.

I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it.   That would be a lie.

Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.

I agree with all my heart, it is one of the greatest lie.

[jabcat]

makes sense Q

yeah Paul, i didn't intend to get into all that.  i was basically saying i'm entertaining your suggestion that there's no other way God could've done it.  otoh, maybe it's the BEST way rather than the only way.  I'm sure it's the best way, or He wouldn't have done it.  as far as the ONLY way, not sure.

i also don't think God makes us do sin.  I believe He put all these options in place, leads us in a specific direction with a definite outcome, but with choices, deviations from the path, and learning from those choices along the way - yet in the final analysis, Him directing our steps.  that's how we grow.  all within his providence and parameters He sets.  but we still have to make some choices.  I've often chose to sin.  I didn't put the option there, but I chose it.  He disciplined me and taught me from it.  i'm going to stop there, that's about as close as i can get to that banned topic.  :o   :punish:

as far as us not being able to understand it, you and i disagree to some extent on that.  i think we are given certain amounts of understanding, while other things are for God to know and God alone.  i understand what i can/what He gives me, the rest comes down to trust and humbling before Him, which I'm not very good at.  i've also often thought i logically, even scripturally understood something, just to find out later i was mistaken.   again though, i didn't intend to go there, i was just trying to make sure my "position" was clear re: the things around the "only way God could have done it" aspect.  some of the newer members can hash it out for their first time...us old-timers have been there/done that, not resolved to everyone's satisfaction yet.  i don't expect it to be, until He tells us face-to-face.   :bigGrin:

peace

Hi James,  perhaps we do disagree but I will say this.   When I say we can understand, I am not doubting that God is the one that gives us understanding.  What I am saying is that to say we CAN'T understand is the lie when it is used to promote an ideology with that as the excuse of why you just need to accept what someone TELLS YOU.

I could actually formulate what I believe here and then assert to you that you need to accept it because you can't understand it.   That would be a lie.

Fact is, if God gives you the understanding, you WILL understand it.

I agree with all my heart, it is one of the greatest lie.

On that point I don't disagree with anything you just said, and I've NEVER said we should just accept what others tell us.  Our vision comes from God, He veils and reveals as He sees fit - and we're also to "search out matters".  But based on earlier post(s), I'm talking about us, as mortal beings, being able to understand all of God's ways or know/understand all that He does or is.  Maybe this is where we disagree - or maybe you have much more understanding of the particular aspects of God's character than I do, including the evil topic as discussed above - but I personally think we all just have certain pieces of the picture.  We do see through the glass darkly.

:bigGrin:   I know in these type discussions, to "make the point", you don't like the use of the scripture of "God's ways are higher than our ways, and His thoughts higher than our thoughts";  or maybe "who can know the mind of God".  However, in this particular discussion this particular scripture came to mind;


For we know in part and we prophesy in part.. I Cor. 13:9


The Living Translation says it this way;  Now our knowledge is partial and incomplete, and even the gift of prophecy reveals only part of the whole picture!

Anyway, moving on.   Blessings.

[CHB]

Hi Paul,

You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"

No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.

I know that man has a hard time dealing with the idea that God controls all the good and evil in the world, I wrestled with this for a long time. When I read that God created ALL things visible and invisible, to me all means all, just like the salvation of all.

Job is a perfect example of how God deals with man concerning evil. Could God have chosen a different method in teaching Job? Maybe, but in the end Job said, "I know that thou canst do EVERY THING and
that no thought can be withholden from thee." So Job repented in dust and ashes. Even though Job was supposedly a righteous man he learned a few things from his ordeal.

I doubt that we will ever fully know and understand this subject completely but it is one that is close to my heart.

Jabcat, I wrote a post earlier and while I was writing it disappeared and it was much better than this one. This makes twice this has happened. I guess the powers that be are working overtime? I just read your last post and it seems we were thinking of the same scripture.

CHB

[Paul Hazelwood]

You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"

No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.

I want to respond to this but I would like an answer to this question from your perspective first if you do not mind because I believe the two questions I asked you in my last reply compliment one another in the point i want to make.

I also asked if you believe God could have created our world without evil.  Maybe to enhance the question a little. 

Do you believe God could have created our world without evil and achieved the same outcome of all men being saved and coming to the knowledge of truth?

[CHB]

You ask me if, "in your example of instruction, would I trust you to teach me something after learning that you really didn't need to cause me physical harm to do so?"

No, I would not trust you because you are not God. God can take evil and use it for the good of mankind,..take Jesus for an example...you cannot do this. Our ways are not his ways and our thoughts are not his thoughts.

I want to respond to this but I would like an answer to this question from your perspective first if you do not mind because I believe the two questions I asked you in my last reply compliment one another in the point i want to make.

I also asked if you believe God could have created our world without evil.  Maybe to enhance the question a little. 

Do you believe God could have created our world without evil and achieved the same outcome of all men being saved and coming to the knowledge of truth?

Paul, since there is nothing that is impossible with God I believe he could have created a world without evil. But, I also believe God knew what would be the best plan for us all. The thing is, we don't know what would have been the best way to handle these things because we haven't experienced the end result yet. We humans try to use our reasonings to figure out God and I don't think it works sometimes. God knew in advance how we would turn out and how we would respond, what would be the best route, we don't. Take a potters vessel for instance, the vessel doesn't know which shape would look the best or how the potter should work to make the best piece of pottery for that particular piece of clay.

CHB

[jabcat]

I struggle with these type of topics, and God is working on me to humble myself before Him and not [internally] "fight against Him". 

That touched me C, thank you.   :HeartThrob: