John indicates not all are written in the book of life?

[Michele]

Few find it in this life PT  the scriptures do talk about a resurrection of the dead and how many are raised up again for destruction, and some for life.

"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both the of the just and unjust."—Acts 24:15.

I can see how reincarnation can come into play on this......just some thoughts I've had..........we shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed.

Still I believe that every knee will bow in the end.  For everything there is a season........

He is the beginning and the end of all things......

[Craig]

Craig......are you saying that God is not found in that Fire......that destruction?

That question is vague. God is found everywhere, there is no where God is not. He is omnipotent. Though do not let that confuse the issue. If a brother murders his brother, it is not God who did it; but the brother. The Lake of Fire, according to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Malachi, etc. and the even the gospels is created in the same way, it is a result of man who lights his own fire to guide himself, did you not read Isaiah 55 quote?

Just think about it. If Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life, which few find. Then who is the wide gate to destruction? Not everyone will have eternal life, in this life. Those who do, do not enter the wide gate.

[Peacetroll]

Stainedglass.

Yes, you are right, there will be a resurrection of all flesh, and John also expounds on it:

John 5:28-30 (King James Version)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

What is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being.

2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


2 Thessalonians 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Philippians 3:18-20
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:

Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

the damnation is destruction.

2 Peter 2

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.

12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;



I hope you will consider my point.  It is only by the GRACE of GOD that we have heard (called) and believe in Christ Jesus.  Not of ourselves.

Peace.

[Michele]

So Craig and PT.....does reincarnation come into play with all this, or is there another way to make sense of the resurrection of the unjust?

I tend to think of how there are different kinds of plants.....ever green and deciduous.....

the ever green stays green (full of life) year round.....hence the name........and the deciduous has seasons of life and death.

[Michele]

What is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being

I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can.  "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed.  There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.

There is a great cleansing going on.

[Peacetroll]

First, you are seriously deluding yourself if you believe all spirits are from the Father of Love.  Jesus made this VERY CLEAR that it was NOT THE CASE.  THOSE WHO LOVE CHRIST ARE OF GOD.

Proof?

John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

One has two choices.  To believe Jesus Christ OR NOT.


At anyrate, this is elementary.  The Wicked are resurrected for the day of Wrath.  And the righteouss to everlasting life.

Some vessels are fitted for honor and glory, some to wrath and destruction.

The wicked for destruction....

Job 21

Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.

For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?

Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,

That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.


The righteouss to everlasting life....



Matthew 25

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal

IF Christ is NOT IN YOU, AND YOU IN HIM, YOU ARE NOT EVEN ALIVE TO THE TRUE GOD.

Proof?

John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

Therefore if the flesh means little to nothing (all flesh perishes), it is the SPIRIT that matters.  And if you don't have Christ in you, and you in Christ, you're spirit is DEAD, Period.


.

[Michele]

He is living water.......all water is water...Right??  all comes from the same place....... and yet not all the same here.......

there is purified water........mountain water.......and there is also raw sewage water........breeding gouds for all forms of unclean things......filth.......

Let me ask you PT........what is the process that the unclean water must undergo in order to get back into the clouds?

[Peacetroll]

Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Two Trees.

Two Fathers.

Light and Darkness.

Wicked and Righteouss

Life and Death.

Two Spirits.

Spirit of Error VS Spirit of Life and Truth.

Forgive others, in hopes that your Father is the father of Love.

[Michele]

............and darkness leads to sunlight.....A new day comes, its alright PT  :dsunny:

[willieH]

WillieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

Ah well?  Does that mean you are giving up this endeavor to convince us of your EXCLUSIVE Salvation "GOSPEL"?  

Willie.

I'm not trying to convince anyone who will not listen.

You must be IN Christ.

You must be BORN AGAIN (The spirit).

No one is arguing the fact that SALVATION requires BELIEF (faith), and that one must be IN CHRIST to be ALIVE in the Spirit... :rolleye:

What you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed IN CHRIST, ...BY CHRIST...  :dontknow:

WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT?  Did YOU do them for YOURSELF?  Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU?  Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?

It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual...  :omg:

CHRIST is ETERNAL... That which is ETERNAL, ALWAYS IS... and NEVER CHANGES!

John stated that... God SO LOVED THE WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is ETERNAL PT)... the "WORLD" is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...IN... it...

The word translated into english: "WORLD" is the Greek word "KOSMOS" which means WORLD in a wide or narrow sense, literally or figuratively, and is DERIVED from the word KOMIZO which means to:  Provide for... keep from harm... bring... receive...  :dontknow:

If GOD so LOVED the "WORLD"... then He DID LOVE the WORLD, DOES LOVE the WORLD and ALWAYS WILL LOVE the WORLD...

Believe as you are led.  As for me, I will follow Christ' teachings over all others.

Peacetroll.

That goes without saying brother...  :grin:  

Just because you have a perception of "following" CHRIST's teaching brother, does not mean that perception has complete REVELATION...  And each of us are "following" as best we can, according to the degree of REVELATION we each have - eh?

I am certain (after 25yrs of interaction) that ALL that are in the various "churches" BELIEVE in CHRIST and HIS TEACHINGS and are "following" as best they are able... but FEW of those MANY, ...have correct REVELATION of those teachings...

SALVATION is NOT according to how much, or little Revelation we have... it is according to CHRIST's WORK, ...not ours... 

His WORK was to SEEK and to SAVE, that which was LOST (Luke 19:10)... He is finished with His Work pertaining to ETERNITY, however... concerning the manifestation of it IN TIME, ...is actively DOING that WORK in each individual which occurs IN DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:3-6)

P.S. As for your 'exclusive' claim.  Here is my reply:

Job 34:13-15
Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?

If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;

All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


Who are you to Judge God's work?

I do not judge GOD's work PT... I see it as COMPLETE... and UNDEFEATED... COMPLETELY VICTORIOUS... WITHOUT, ...respect of PERSONS... PT...

But YOU teach EXCLUSIVITY and Respect of PERSONS... for you do NOT include ALL... only those SELECTED... which BREAKS the Scripture if TRUE...

There are TOO MANY VERSES which INDICATE SALVATION as ALL INCLUSIVE...

I do find it interesting that you often bark about CHRIST's Teachings, and don't even use His quoted words here, to prove your point...  :dontknow:

Rather, you use an OT verse, accompanied by one from Paul's writings...  :mshock:

Peace...    :mfriends:

In  JESUS...willieH    :scoutshonor:

[Craig]

What is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being

I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can.  "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed.  There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.

There is a great cleansing going on.

I don't agree with PT's ultimate conclusion. But I do want to show you this Scripture. The spirit within us, is created. The spirit of man can be destroyed, but God will not destroy it. The souls of man, are created.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever, neither will I be angry always, for [if I did stay angry] the spirit [of man] would faint and be consumed before Me, and [My purpose in] creating the souls of men would be frustrated.

Though the Lake of Fire, according to Isaiah 55, does not destroy in the way of utter annialation, it destroys in a different manner, when finally there is no more strength, and they lie down to suffer for it.

[Peacetroll]

What you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed IN CHRIST, ...BY CHRIST... 

WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT?  Did YOU do them for YOURSELF?  Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU?  Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?

It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual... 

Willie.

You will be hard pressed to find any post of mine that diverts from the gift of God.  Not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT...  :laughing7:

Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

Two Trees.

Two Fathers.

Light and Darkness.

Wicked and Righteouss

Life and Death.

Two Spirits.

Spirit of Error VS Spirit of Life and Truth.

Forgive others, in hopes that your Father is the father of Love.

Being that I already addressed this "list", let me say, that until GOD draws one to Himself (John 6:44 & 65)... one remains "fathered" in ADVERSITY... which is the NATURAL man...

But upon being DRAWN [dragged] to the Cross (John 12:32)... YHVH becomes the "Father" of that one... for He/She has come to Him THROUGH CHRIST... and NOT of his/her own DOING, but of the WORK by the SPIRIT of GOD...

FORGIVENESS is something that comes FROM CHRIST, from WITHIN (who IS the INWARD man, spoken of by PAUL)

Of himself... man demands the CARNAL which DOES NOT FORGIVE enemies, nor "turn's the other cheek", ...and is  founded in UNFORGIVENESS... and VENGENCE...

Peace...    :mfriends:

In  JESUS...willieH    :scoutshonor:

[Peacetroll]

John stated that... God SO LOVED THE WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is ETERNAL PT)... the "WORLD" is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...IN... it...

Conveniant to leave the rest out.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is the UR version:

John 3:16 (UR Version):
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.

What a twist. 

which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction

[willieH]

willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:

What you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed IN CHRIST, ...BY CHRIST... 

WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT?  Did YOU do them for YOURSELF?  Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU?  Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?

It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual... 

Willie.

You will be hard pressed to find any post of mine that diverts from the gift of God.  Not of ourselves.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Good! 

But if ANY are excluded (as you purport)... then YOU make GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS bro!

CHRIST came to seek and SAVE the LOST... the FACT remains, that ALL are LOST... brother PT!

Your perception is that one lump of dirt is more valuable to God than another... it just is NOT SO!

Dirt is dirt... and one lump of it is not of any more value than another!

But because GOD creates a LIVING BEING of it... which makes EACH LUMP, ...completely, ...INVALUABLE!

And WILL SAVE, ...EACH, ...INVALUABLE, ...LUMP!

Know this bro, ...BOTH the vessels of DISHONOR and HONOR, are found in the SAME LUMP! (Rom 9:21 / Jer 18:4)

Peace...    :mfriends:

In  JESUS...willieH    :scoutshonor:

[Peacetroll]

Lets try this again.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is the UR version:

John 3:16 (UR Version):
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Talk about TWISTING DOCTRINE.

As for your accusation that I make God a respecter of persons, what is written in the scriptures???  Have you not read?

Deuteronomy 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Does God not choose whom he will choose?

It has nothing to do with the person or his works, but it is of GODS DOING.

Let us depart from this converstation, for it is ostensible that we both cling to our understanding with no movement of ground.

Christ is Hope for all who believe.

P.S. The vessel is flesh.  The vessel is Adam (bones and blood).
It is the wine (spirit) inside that concerns the true God.  All vessels (flesh), shall return to dust.  Period.  But God will redeem his breath and spirit.

[SeekerSA]

Peacetroll

A few quotes from another great Book/Movie

Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy

Resistance is Useless

or

Don't Panic

[Peacetroll]

 :bgdance:

Everything is going according to plan.

All is well.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

[Michele]

What is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being

I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can.  "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed.  There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.

There is a great cleansing going on.

I don't agree with PT's ultimate conclusion. But I do want to show you this Scripture. The spirit within us, is created. The spirit of man can be destroyed, but God will not destroy it. The souls of man, are created.

Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever, neither will I be angry always, for [if I did stay angry] the spirit [of man] would faint and be consumed before Me, and [My purpose in] creating the souls of men would be frustrated.

Though the Lake of Fire, according to Isaiah 55, does not destroy in the way of utter annialation, it destroys in a different manner, when finally there is no more strength, and they lie down to suffer for it.

I can see that.....

PT........what hope do you give to those parents who have lost their children who died in unbelief?

I believe that these parents......will see their children again.....it is the same for our Heavenly Father........meaning the Father will be reunited with His lost child again.

....and the child will no longer be lost.......

[Peacetroll]

Here is my nutshell explanation of those who seem lost.

The millinium.

The day of the Lord's return, all flesh will be raised.  All those who did not have a chance to understand will be given a chance.  All those who did not believe will have a chance to 'choose whom they will serve'.

This is only the first go around.  The 'iron rod' rule of Jesus on his return will give everyone (even those who hate Christ), the opportunity to repent and to come to him.

Yet, there will still be those who hate christ.  These are the thorns and briers that are folded together (who come against the City of the Saints), and burned with Gehenna fire at the last day (second death).

In NO WAY do I believe those who die in unbelief now are without hope. 

It would take alot of scripture to back my explanation.  Perhaps in time we can go through this, if we so desire.

Peace to you in Christ.

[Michele]

So you believe it's possible that all will repent.......

Is it possible?

[Michele]

PT, What about the every knee shall bow scripture?

[Peacetroll]

They bow during the millinium, but they await their evil councilour.

They then come together against the City of the Saints (after the iron rod rule of Christ; when satan is loosed again), and try to kill Christ and his.  Then God burns them with Gehanna fire.  They are as the sands of the sea. (See Revelations, Isaiah and Jeremiaha).

Revelation 20
.6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Again Nahum also prophecied of the time spoke above by John...

Nahum 1

The LORD has His way
      In the whirlwind and in the storm,
      And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
       4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry,
      And dries up all the rivers.
      Bashan and Carmel wither,
      And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
       5 The mountains quake before Him,
      The hills melt,
      And the earth heaves at His presence,
      Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
       6 Who can stand before His indignation?
      And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
      His fury is poured out like fire,
      And the rocks are thrown down by Him.
       7 The LORD is good,
      A stronghold in the day of trouble;
      And He knows those who trust in Him.
       8 But with an overflowing flood
      He will make an utter end of its place,
      And darkness will pursue His enemies.
       9 What do you conspire against the LORD?
      He will make an utter end of it.
      Affliction will not rise up a second time.
       10 For while tangled like thorns,
      And while drunken like drunkards,
      They shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.
       11 From you (The thorns or the wicked) comes forth one
      Who plots evil against the LORD,
      A wicked counselor.

The fire coming down from God out of heaven IS THE SECOND DEATH.  I don't think any of us want to risk being apart of those who come against the camp of the saints at the end of Christ's earthly rule (the 1000 years wether metaphoric time or not).

Peace in Christ; the only hope.

[SeekerSA]

Well the millennium is your stumbling block. There is no literal 1000 years.

Your theology is somewhere between ET and Annihilationism

Next stop

UR

I cannot see how if by your scenario everyone is raised and will meet Jesus face to face the epitome of Unconditional love, will be able to hate him.  Nonetheless, let us stick with this scenario.

That is of course when the lamb will lie with the leopard and the lion will eat grass.

Interesting how animals will suddenly go from carnivores to herbovores seeing their anatomy is designed for their food diet.  Wonder why they did not talk about elephants, giraffe, hippos, emus, crocodiles, kangaroos.  So I guess there is a metaphorical meaning to this too.

Any way, you still on the train and that is a good thing.

Blessings

[willieH]

John stated that... God SO LOVED THE WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is ETERNAL PT)... the "WORLD" is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...IN... it...

Conveniant to leave the rest out.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Here is the UR version:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.

What a twist.

Such perverse wording... you should be ashamed...  :shakepoint:

No one who BELIEVES in the SALVATION of ALL, holds this as teaching... YOU would be HARD PRESSED to find a PERSON on this forum (who BELIEVES in UR), that has stated such NONSENSE!

ALL will BELIEVE in DUE TIME... and when they do (Phil 2:10-11 / Rom 14:11 / Is 45:23)... they shall NOT PERISH!

YOU are the one who gravitates to CONVENIENCE, thinking that YOU are prized by GOD above MANY others... such is thinking is completely founded in VANITY... brother PT!

:laugh:  Concerning GOD's LOVE, ...I did not leave out the balance of John 3:16 according to convenience... I was trying to establish ETERNAL perspective... of GOD's LOVE!

Buy FYI:

BELIEF does NOT ...ORIGINATE... in men of themselves Peacetroll... FAITH is dealt to EVERY MAN, ...by GOD (Rom 12:3)

And, ...NO MAN CAN (is able to) come to CHRIST except the FATHER DRAW [drag] HIM... (John 6:44) ...so much for your "belief" originating in your heart, of yourself! :rolleye:

Is Your FAITH brother, AUTHORED and FINISHED... by Peacetroll?   :dontknow: NOT!  :mnah:

ALL FAITH, is AUTHORED (originated/alpha) and FINISHED (completed/omega), ...By CHRIST! (Heb 12:2)

And FAITH is NOT of OURSELVES as you rightly noted in Eph 2:8-9!

So where does that leave us dear brother?  It means that BELIEF which is a product of FAITH, is DEALT out, ...and AUTHORED, ...and FINISHED ...by CHRIST!

And as SCRIPTURE NOTES... God has NO RESPECT of PERSONS...  :winkgrin:

In each one, IN DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:6)

Peace...     :URWelcome:

In  JESUS...willieH    :scoutshonor: