Revelation 13:7-9
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
Hi Peacetroll,
Just a couple of comments.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 03:25:47 PM
Revelation 13:7-9
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
But that isn't the end of the story, Peacetroll. John tells us that there's a victory yet to be won! :-)
Rev 15:2-3 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.And do you want to know the extent of the victory? John tells us that, too, in the very next verse!
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.Did you catch that?! It ties in with that wonderful prophecy of Isaiah, that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
QuoteRevelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
But that isn't the end of the story either. The lake of fire is far from being the end.
You can read about at the end of John's vision when he talks about the new Jerusalem, where the gates are always open. And the leaves of the tree of life are for healing. Didn't you ever ask yourself who it could be that yet requires healing at this point in the story? What possible need could there be for any remaining ministry?
I think the answer measures up magnificently with the glorious purpose of God in Christ Jesus, the ministry of reconciliation that Paul so wonderfully outlines to the Corinthians. (Pay close attention to the pronouns "us" and "them." It's the key to understanding what Paul is saying.)
2Cr 5:18-20 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.Do you see it, Peacetroll? The ministry of reconciliation is what we are all about as Christians. And it won't stop when Christ returns to rule and reign with His saints. The leaves of the tree of life are for healing!
I'll leave you with one more bit of scripture, again from Paul's words to the Corinthians. I don't think you can understand John's visions without bearing in mind these words from Paul.
1Cor 15:19-28
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. You see? It''s the sheer majesty of it all that just blows me away. It's the evidence that God
really does know what he's doing! Nothing has been left to chance. Jesus really is the savior of the world. His elect really are ministers of reconciliation, ambassadors for their Lord. And one day, armed with the leaves of the tree of life, they will fulfill Jesus' prophecy that they will perform even greater miracles than Jesus did.
Peace and blessings and much love in Christ,
Andy
Ahh.
The complexity of scripture and yet the simplicity.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Notice its IN Christ. Those IN Christ shall be 'made alive'.
IN Christ you are alive. IF you are not IN Christ you are not alive.
You see all IN CHRIST certainly shall be made alive. All those OUTSIDE OF CHRIST are dead and not alive! ALL IN HIM ARE 100% MADE ALIVE! I wish I could explain it better.
Check this out----------
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
As for Paul, he spoke many things hard to be understood.
All nations shall bow to him, but not of their own will. Therefore it can be stated that all nations shall bow (during the millinium), but only because he forces them too with an IRON ROD!!!
Just because you bow to him (because you have too), does not mean you love him. I bow to the rules of the government, but I certainly don't love the government.
These who hate Christ shall also bow, but they do this only because he FORCES PEACE AND JUSTICE AGAINST THEIR WILL!!
1 John 3:15
Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
Revelation 2:
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27And he(Jesus) shall rule them (the nations) with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
Christ Overcame. Period. And we are victors only because of Christ in us.
Revelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
That man child is Christ. The Iron rod means BY FORCE. Why force? Because the children of PRIDE HATE CHRIST and all he stands for.
Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Again, lets take a look at this time when Christ returns:
Jude 1:14-16
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Paul even agree's with Jude:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Once the cancer (darkness and his kin), is eliminated, Christ will certainly be all in all.
If you have a cancer, and it is removed, we can say that now your body is full of health and life. Health reigns now within all your body because the cancer is gone.
Until the cancer is gone, we can not say you are healthy or that life and health reign all in all in your body.
Once the darkness is gone, Christ (life), will certainly be all in all.
Believe Christ before you take the hard things (to be understood), that Paul taught (which he made confounding for the elect sake).
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Hope and truth in Christ Jesus (the word of God).
Hey Peace
Only one name written in the BoL
Blessings
I bet that name is Jesus Christ, possibly even MAN. And who is MAN? MAN = GOD (his real name).
And if we be not in him and him in us.
We have no life nor shall we see life.
Romans 3:24
being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Romans 6:11
Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 8:1
[ Free from Indwelling Sin ] There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
But of course I know you know this seeker.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
Ahh.
The complexity of scripture and yet the simplicity.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Notice its IN Christ. Those IN Christ shall be 'made alive'.
IN Christ you are alive. IF you are not IN Christ you are not alive.
You see all IN CHRIST certainly shall be made alive. All those OUTSIDE OF CHRIST are dead and not alive! ALL IN HIM ARE 100% MADE ALIVE! I wish I could explain it better.
Hi again, Peacetroll,
I understand, you, I think. But I think you are missing something important. Critical, actually. You're familiar, I'm sure, with the other time Paul makes the counteranalogy between Adam and Jesus. And I believe it shatters your interpretation rather soundly.
Rom 5:12-19
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.
Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
I don't see how Paul could have made it clearer. What I think is tripping you up is that you cannot yet see that the day is coming when all men will be in Christ. That's what I was trying to show you about the ministry of reconciliation... that it is not merely for this age, but also for an age and for ages yet to come, until everything on the earth, under the earth and in heaven can be reconciled to its Creator.
Don't you wonder about the leaves of the tree of life and the healing they are foretold to bring? Don't you wonder how it is that the kings of the earth who warred against Jesus and were thrown into the lake of fire are to bring their gllory into the holy city, where nothing evil in God's sight may enter?
QuoteCheck this out----------
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
1 John 5:12
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
As for Paul, he spoke many things hard to be understood.
All nations shall bow to him, but not of their own will. Therefore it can be stated that all nations shall bow (during the millinium), but only because he forces them too with an IRON ROD!!!
Just because you bow to him (because you have too), does not mean you love him. I bow to the rules of the government, but I certainly don't love the government.
These who hate Christ shall also bow, but they do this only because he FORCES PEACE AND JUSTICE AGAINST THEIR WILL!!
That is not at all the picture painted by Isaiah's prophecy, my brother. Check
this out! :-)
Isa 45:22
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. As the verse clearly states, Peacetroll, this is all about salvation. And what will the bowers and swearers (which, clearly, is everyone) be saying? That "in the LORD have I righteousness and strength." The verse also suggests that certainly many, perhaps even all, will be ashamed. Paul provides the further insight that all this bowing and swearing (worship!) will serve to glorify God. Yet, your interpretation is not indicated in any manner, shape or form.
QuoteChrist Overcame. Period. And we are victors only because of Christ in us.
Yes. And all will one day be in Christ. The scriptures from 1Corinthians that I've already quoted to you demonstrate that.
QuoteRevelation 12:5
And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
That man child is Christ. The Iron rod means BY FORCE. Why force? Because the children of PRIDE HATE CHRIST and all he stands for.
Revelation 19:15
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Yes. He shall smithe them and
rule them. And He will subject them. And they shall worship Him and confess with their mouths, believing in their hearts that He is the Lord. Isn't that great?!
QuoteAgain, lets take a look at this time when Christ returns:
Jude 1:14-16
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Paul even agree's with Jude:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
Once the cancer (darkness and his kin), is eliminated, Christ will certainly be all in all.
If you have a cancer, and it is removed, we can say that now your body is full of health and life. Health reigns now within all your body because the cancer is gone.
Until the cancer is gone, we can not say you are healthy or that life and health reign all in all in your body.
Once the darkness is gone, Christ (life), will certainly be all in all.
Believe Christ before you take the hard things (to be understood), that Paul taught (which he made confounding for the elect sake).
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
It is my earnest prayer that the majesty and scope of God's salvation in Jesus Christ flows over you one day, Peacetroll. He not only has the power to save all men. He has the will to do so. And yet, you cannot believe Him.
God hates sin, but He yet loves the sinners. That's why Jesus came. It's why He gave His precious life as a ransom for all.
Peace and blessings to you,
Andy
QuoteAll nations shall bow to him, but not of their own will. Therefore it can be stated that all nations shall bow (during the millinium), but only because he forces them too with an IRON ROD!!!
Just because you bow to him (because you have too), does not mean you love him. I bow to the rules of the government, but I certainly don't love the government.
These who hate Christ shall also bow, but they do this only because he FORCES PEACE AND JUSTICE AGAINST THEIR WILL!!
yo Bro PT :icon_flower:
hope your well dude? :icon_flower:
Theres a misconception about this ROD , Its a Rod ( voice of Authority ) by correction Done in LOVE...hard Love MAYBE a better term.?
Paul also had the Use of Such a ROD.
1Cr 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and [in] the spirit of meekness?
The nations are Individuals and their Pots need to be broken as with all flesh...but its the same pot which is remade..not two seperate pots
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
Jer 18:5 ¶ Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter's hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel
Brother GOD IS LOVE..its
HIS essence thats misunderstood
This is Just not a message to One type of people, this happens to US ALL.
The Tares and wheat Grow together?
Christ the hidden man of the heart restoring that which was LOST?
Blessings
Bro
Taffy
So many issues open for rebutal,
but so little time at the moment.
One point of Isaiah I would like to pull out and expound on is this....
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. Isaiah
Who is the 'one'???
Let me give you the modern translation:
Surely, shall one (Christ Jesus) say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strenght: even to him (the 'one'...Jesus Christ) shall men come; and all that are incensede against him (the 'one'...Jesus Christ) shall be ashamed.
you might want to digest that for awhile.
Also, will we who believe in Christ ever be ashamed?
Lets go to scripture....
Isaiah 45:17
But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Isaiah 50:7
For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed.
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
Romans 9:33
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
I hope that helps some in understanding that you who believe in Christ will not be ashamed. And that it is Jesus (the 'ONE') of whom trusted in the LORD and all others fall short of this. We are to believe in the 'One'.
Peace in Christ.
Yo PT
For sure Matey you entitled to your thoughts.
Mes happy to leave it there.
But if you post others may take on your rebuttal
Blessings
Taffy
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 11:06:19 PM
So many issues open for rebutal,
but so little time at the moment.
Understood. I'll look forward to your more detailed response later, if you have time. (You do have a lot of irons in the discussion fire! :-) )
But I found your response on Isaiah 45 interesting. You said:
QuoteOne point of Isaiah I would like to pull out and expound on is this....
Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed. Isaiah
Who is the 'one'???
Let me give you the modern translation:
Surely, shall one (Christ Jesus) say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strenght: even to him (the 'one'...Jesus Christ) shall men come; and all that are incensede against him (the 'one'...Jesus Christ) shall be ashamed.
you might want to digest that for awhile.
Interesting. I'd be interested in whence such a translation and interpretation comes. Perhaps the New King James?
I'd also be interested in how you square the universal worship (what else would you call bowing and confessing) of Jesus that is so clearly foretold with your earlier description of this as some sort of coerced sham. More importantly, how could such a sham provide any glory to Almighty God, as Paul says this bowing and confessing shall?
QuoteAlso, will we who believe in Christ ever be ashamed?
In Isaiah 45, God is referring to "all the ends of the earth." In other words, to everyone. That's the point I was making. And many, perhaps even most, people will be ashamed. Nevertheless, they will fall down in worship to the Lord, and all that to the glory of God.
Peace and blessings to you, Peacetroll.
Andy
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere: ...Me again! :eek:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 03:25:47 PM
Revelation 13:7-9
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Which is ALL MEN ...PT... The POWER of ADVERSITY started with Adam and Eve, and ALL have continued in it... Men seat themselves in the temple of GOD, and act as GOD... displacing the RIGHTFUL LORD that should be seated there... THIS is what causes EACH NAME to be be BLOTTED OUT of the Book of Life...
SIN makes us ALL ...ineligible to SPIRITUAL LIFE... only GOD can RECONCILE us to it...
(If any man hath an ear, ...let him hear!)QuoteRevelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
As
IN ADAM [son of the natural/adversity] ...ALL DIE, so
IN CHRIST [Son of GOD] shall ALL be made ALIVE!
(let him that hath an ear, hear)Alive from what? From
DEATH which is what REMOVES us from LIFE'S BOOK! This isn't just about physical DEATH, it is about ALL DEATH... CHRIST came to conquer ALL DEATH
(let him that hath an ear, hear)Death and "hell" (hades) were cast INTO the LAKE OF FIRE... is DEATH not present in
THIS LIFE, brother PT? Is the GRAVE (HADES) not present in
THIS LIFE, brother PT?
(let him that hath an ear, hear)And whosoever was not found written in the book of life, was cast into the Lake of Fire, ...which is ALL MEN! ALL men are subject to PHYSICAL and SPIRITUAL DEATH... which means they are NOT in LIFE in either case... until DEATH is reconciled to LIFE...
THIS LIFE, ...
IS... the Lake of
FIRE...
(let him that hath an ear, hear)(Rev 3:18) States that CHRIST's
doings were TRIED in FIRE... well those
doings took place in
THIS LIFE... CHRIST endured His sufferings HERE... and we follow Him in suffering, which also takes place, HERE!
(Let him that hath an ear, hear)Mark 9:49 says ALL shall be "salted" with
FIRE... well ALL are in THIS LIFE... and are continually amongst
FIREY TRIALS... and face the
FIREY DARTS of ADVERSITY (the devil)
(let him that hath an ear, hear) Peace... :HeartThrob:
In
JESUS
...willieH :gamer:
Quote from: pickr on November 02, 2007, 04:33:05 PM
You can read about at the end of John's vision when he talks about the new Jerusalem, where the gates are always open.
Hey Andy,
Compare Revelation 21 with Isaiah 60 to see
why the gates are always open. In a nutshell, this is the reason "they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."
Blessings,
Bob
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 11:06:19 PM
Also, will we who believe in Christ ever be ashamed?
In the future, no. In the past yes.
Isaiah 54:4 Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for
thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember
the reproach of thy widowhood any more. 5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Ezekiel 36:31 Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations. 32 Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you:
be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel. 33 thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 03:25:47 PM
Revelation 13:7-9
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
Revelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
In Romans 8, the Spirit taught Paul that all the children God created were made subject to devils down here, but Father will remove them all "from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children above".
Quote from: bobf on November 03, 2007, 06:14:46 AM
Hey Andy,
Compare Revelation 21 with Isaiah 60 to see why the gates are always open. In a nutshell, this is the reason "they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it."
Blessings,
Bob
Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU! :happy3:
Peace and blessings,
Andy
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
Ahh.
The complexity of scripture and yet the simplicity.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Notice its IN Christ. Those IN Christ shall be 'made alive'. [?????]
:omg:
WHAT????? :mshock: :faint: Where do you see the word "those" mentioned in this verse??? :dunno2:
Did you
misquote these words from 1 Cor 15:22 purposely, PT? :dunno:
It does
NOT say: ...
"those" IN CHRIST shall be made alive,
It says: :dbook: ...even so,
IN CHRIST shall
ALL be made alive...
Quote from: PTIN Christ you are alive. IF you are not IN Christ you are not alive.
This is correct, and the verse PLAINLY SAYS,
IN CHRIST shall
ALL be made ALIVE!
Quote from: PTYou see all IN CHRIST certainly shall be made alive. All those OUTSIDE OF CHRIST are dead and not alive! ALL IN HIM ARE 100% MADE ALIVE! I wish I could explain it better.
Before ANYONE is
IN CHRIST dear brother PT, ...they are NOT
IN CHRIST!
Before YOU or I were
IN CHRIST, guess what?
We (you or I), were
NOT ...
IN CHRIST! Can you not see this? :dontknow:
Each one IN
DUE TIME :clock: ...shall find him/herself
IN CHRIST (1 Tim 2:6)
Peace... :boogie:
In
JESUS
...willieH :drummer:
Thanks for jumping into the fray, Willie. Appreciate your scholarship more than you know.
Me? I'm just a half-informed zealot! :happy3:
Peace and blessings to you, and to Peacetroll,
Andy
willieH: Hi Andy... :hithere:
Quote from: pickr on November 04, 2007, 12:25:10 AM
Thanks for jumping into the fray, Willie. Appreciate your scholarship more than you know.
Me? I'm just a half-informed zealot! :happy3:
Peace and blessings to you, and to Peacetroll,
Andy
Thanks for your kind words brother Andy... Let us all praise Him for His use of us as instruments to help one another!
May :bowing: JESUS be glorified
IN and
BY ...all of us! :myahoo: :declare:
Peace... :boogie:
In
JESUS
...willieH :drummer:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 06:33:59 PM
All nations shall bow to him, but not of their own will. Therefore it can be stated that all nations shall bow (during the millinium), but only because he forces them too with an IRON ROD!!!
Nonsense. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the meaning of exomologeo and homologeo.
QuoteThese who hate Christ shall also bow, but they do this only because he FORCES PEACE AND JUSTICE AGAINST THEIR WILL!!
All beings in all dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld ultimately bow before Him in worship. The Greek states that this is in willing worship and praise and celebration. Not by rote or perfunctory genuflections and resounds to the glory of God.
ejxomologevw = To confess/ profess
To acknowledge openly and joyfully to one's honour.
To celebrate.
Robertson New Testament Word PicturesThat in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampshi).
First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina.
Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.Rev. 5:13 -Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament-Every created thing (pan ktisma).
Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).
No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
I've got a feeling that what was NOT written in the BOOK of LIFE was NOT written in it
from the beginning!
Might not want to take that stuff to heaven? ha Might be a part of the "generation" of
HIS wrath!
Selah!
Remember what it says about going into Cannaan, about when "all the MEN of WAR
had died off" how little piles were left behind all thru the wilderness?
But man, what emerged!
Quote from: pickr on November 02, 2007, 04:33:05 PM
Hi Peacetroll,
Just a couple of comments.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 02, 2007, 03:25:47 PM
Revelation 13:7-9
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
If any man have an ear, let him hear.
But that isn't the end of the story, Peacetroll. John tells us that there's a victory yet to be won! :-)
Rev 15:2-3 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
And do you want to know the extent of the victory? John tells us that, too, in the very next verse!
Rev 15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.
Did you catch that?! It ties in with that wonderful prophecy of Isaiah, that every knee will bow and every tongue confess.
QuoteRevelation 20:14-15
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire
But that isn't the end of the story either. The lake of fire is far from being the end.
You can read about at the end of John's vision when he talks about the new Jerusalem, where the gates are always open. And the leaves of the tree of life are for healing. Didn't you ever ask yourself who it could be that yet requires healing at this point in the story? What possible need could there be for any remaining ministry?
I think the answer measures up magnificently with the glorious purpose of God in Christ Jesus, the ministry of reconciliation that Paul so wonderfully outlines to the Corinthians. (Pay close attention to the pronouns "us" and "them." It's the key to understanding what Paul is saying.)
2Cr 5:18-20 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
Do you see it, Peacetroll? The ministry of reconciliation is what we are all about as Christians. And it won't stop when Christ returns to rule and reign with His saints. The leaves of the tree of life are for healing!
I'll leave you with one more bit of scripture, again from Paul's words to the Corinthians. I don't think you can understand John's visions without bearing in mind these words from Paul.
1Cor 15:19-28 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
You see? It"s the sheer majesty of it all that just blows me away. It's the evidence that God really does know what he's doing! Nothing has been left to chance. Jesus really is the savior of the world. His elect really are ministers of reconciliation, ambassadors for their Lord. And one day, armed with the leaves of the tree of life, they will fulfill Jesus' prophecy that they will perform even greater miracles than Jesus did.
Peace and blessings and much love in Christ,
Andy
Amen Andy.
I second that Amen Craig and Andy,
The salvation of all mankind is truely good news!
Anything less than the salvation of ALL mankind is not really good news at all is it?
Luk 2:11-14 KJVR
(11) For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Savior, which is Christ the Lord.
(12) And this shall be a sign unto you; Ye shall find the babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.
(13) And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
(14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.
Someone messed up their songsheets
14) Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward (some) men
Blessings :laughing7:
Willie.
You must be in Christ to be alive.
IN Christ.
Romans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
You see Paul himself KNEW that he was not IN CHRIST prior to believing IN CHRIST.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I don't know how to make that much clearer.
And to be in Christ you must believe IN HIM.
Ah well.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 06, 2007, 03:39:10 PM
Willie.
You must be in Christ to be alive.
Oh for sure, P.T.
The same all who die in Adam are the all made alive in Christ. And, the all made sinners are the same identical all made righteous. The fact is: in the dispensation of the fulness of times the Lord of Glory gathers together in, or into Christ Jesus, the radical all in the heavens and the earth and the underworld.
Want to be more specific, what it means to have you name written in the lambs book of life?
John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me."
Over time, I am discovering we really exaggerate the words of Jesus to mean something more than it means as a result we think the disciples are saying more than they are saying.
There is only one name in the Lambs book of Life.
Quote from: Craig on November 06, 2007, 06:26:43 PM
Want to be more specific, what it means to have you name written in the lambs book of life?
John 5:39
"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me."
Over time, I am discovering we really exaggerate the words of Jesus to mean something more than it means as a result we think the disciples are saying more than they are saying.
There is only one name in the Lambs book of Life.
Craig. ONLY ONE "nature"? ..........the "name" above all names!
He will be ALL in ALL!
Almost too much to comprehend, isn't it?
Someone sent me a photo today of the comparisons of the "earth" with the Sun and the Planets
in "size" and I could sure see why were are called a "grain of sand."
Actually Red it is a lot simpler than that
Tree-of-Life -> Rock in the Desert -> Jesus - Book-of Life
Jesus is the Book-of-Life.
No other name but the name of Jesus (remember that chorus?)
Once people get this revelation then they will see, in Christ means our names are written in Jesus. He has engraved us into the palms of His hands.
There is no eraser as Jesus did it ALL, it is finished.
So even when the "unsaved" bow their knee, they will enter "into Jesus" Those that He finds in this lifetime enter in now.
The Kingdom "began" with Jesus and is available for ALL right now whom He chooses to reveal it to in this lifetime.
Blessings
An Ambassador, also has the Name of whom he represents. If you are an Ambassador of Jesus Christ, you also have His Name.
2 Corinthians 5:20
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
If you are an Ambassador of Christ, you also bear His Name.
Acts 9:15-16 But the Lord said to him (Ananias) "Go, for he (Paul) is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name's sake."
1 Peter 4:16
However, if you suffer as a Christian (Follower of Christ), do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name.
Not everyone bears His Name. Though it won't make sense to many because they grow afraid, only few enter the narrow gate that leads to life, many enter the wide gate that leads to destruction1. There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.2 Therefore, those whose name is not in the Lambs Book of Life, is thrown into the Lake of Fire.3 There were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.4
I tell you the truth, the vain imagines of people, imagining what the Lake of Fire is, and their fear that they are, or one of their loved ones will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, causes the truth to be fractured and twisted. If we fear, then we will not see the truth. If we are worried, then we do not understand what is happening.
Isaiah 66:13-18
As a mother comforts her son, so I will comfort you, and you will be comforted in Jerusalem.
You will see [from within the city], you will rejoice [within the city], and you will flourish like grass; then the LORD's power will be revealed to His servants [within the city], but He will show His wrath against His enemies. [outside the city]
Look, the LORD will come with fire [outside the city] — His chariots are like the whirlwind — to execute His anger with fury, and His rebuke with flames of fire [outside the city]. For the LORD will execute judgment on all flesh [outside the city] with His fiery sword, and many will be slain by the LORD [outside the city].
"Those who dedicate and purify themselves to enter the groves following their [evil] leader, eating meat from pigs, vermin, and rats, will perish together."
This is the LORD's declaration.
"Knowing their works and their thoughts, I have come to gather all nations and languages; they will come and see My glory.
If we read the above, and horrific images come to our mind, then we have still are comformed to the world, and have not renewed our minds to the acceptable, good and perfect will of God. What is mentioned in Isaiah 66, is the exact same thing that is mentioned in all the parables Jesus gave.
Luke 12:45-46
"But if that slave says in his heart, 'My master will be a long time in coming,' and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers.
If we still cannot see it, how about this:
Matthew 25:14-28
"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.
"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'
"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'
"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'
"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.
" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
How about this?
Mark 3:35
"For whoever does the will of God, he is My brother and sister and mother."
Okay how about what John said?
1 John 2:15-17
Do not love the world nor the things in the world if anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
If the one who does the will of God lives forever, he will not be facing the Lake of Fire; because the Lake of Fire is Second Death.
So only the only names in the Lambs Book of Life is the only Name in the Lambs Book of Life and all those who bear His Name.
Revelation 2:17
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.
1 (Matthew 7:13)
2 (1 John 4:18)
3 (Revelation 20:15)
4 (2 Peter 2:1)
So it is the New name that is written in the book of LIFE. The old things pass away and the new is brought to fruition......... :HeartThrob:
Sorry.
I injected something I don't feel is good to inject this 5 minutes.
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 06, 2007, 09:01:11 PM
So it is the New name that is written in the book of LIFE. The old things pass away and the new is brought to fruition......... :HeartThrob:
Pretty much, all that is left is the details.
The only one who overcomes, is the one who trusts in the Name of Jesus. To him, he is given a new name and that is the Name of Jesus because there is only one Name that can enter.
1 John 3:23And this is his command:
to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
Now pay attention.
Isaiah 50:10-11 Who is among you who [reverently] fears the Lord, who obeys the voice of His Servant, yet who walks in darkness and deep trouble and has no shining splendor [in his heart]?
Let him rely on, trust in, and be confident in the name of the Lord, and let him lean upon and be supported by his God. Behold, all you [enemies of your own selves] who attempt to kindle your own fires [and work out your own plans of salvation], who surround and gird yourselves with momentary sparks, darts, and firebrands that you set aflame!--walk by the light of your self-made fire and of the sparks that you have kindled [for yourself, if you will]! But this shall you have from My hand: you shall lie down in grief and in torment.
This is really simple. The Lake of Fire is man-made, it is the doctrines and religion that tries to find any other way to salvation but Jesus Christ! It is the same judgment given at Gehenna to apostate Israel. They will find themselves throwing each other into the valley of fire. So only those who are part of it, will be cast into it.
On the hand. Those who trust in the Name of the Lord, are overcomers and never part of it, they enter the city and have not their part in the Lake of Fire, nor does it have power over them. Once inside, those who have walked by the Light of the Lord, take the leaves of the tree of Life and head back outside to heal those who lie down in grief and in torment outside in the Lake of Fire, and bring them salvation and healing.
Philippians 2:9-11Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 06, 2007, 09:52:37 PM
And what is that 'new' name?
MAN
That is a reasonable impossiblity, because with
MAN it is impossible but with
GOD all things are possible.
QuoteThe Lake of Fire is man-made
??
Lake of fire represents total destruction.
Also Craig, Man means many things throughout scripture.
Just like many words have multiple meanings.
Let us examine the statement that God's true name is MAN.
Here we go....
John 12:34
The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The
Son of man must be lifted up?
who is this Son of man?So we know Jesus is the 'Son of Man'.
Now who is Jesus also called?
The Son of God.
God = MAN.
John 12:23
And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that
the Son of man should be glorified.
John 6:62
What and if ye shall see the
Son of man ascend up where he was before?
John 17:26
And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.Jesus the Son of
God = Jesus the Son of
MAN.Therefore God's true name is MAN
QuoteLake of fire represents total destruction.
We agree.
The name is not Man because he is the son of man, nor is the name God because He is the Son of God; The Name is Jesus, who is the son of man and the Son of God.
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 06, 2007, 09:01:11 PM
So it is the New name that is written in the book of LIFE. The old things pass away and the new is brought to fruition......... :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a
thief in the night; in the which the
heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the
elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 21:4 And God shall
wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the
former things are passed away. 2Cr 5:17
Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a
new creature:
old things are
passed away; behold
, all things are become new.
Blessings
TLF
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2007, 10:44:11 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 06, 2007, 09:01:11 PM
So it is the New name that is written in the book of LIFE. The old things pass away and the new is brought to fruition......... :HeartThrob:
:icon_flower:
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Blessings
TLF
Amen. :D
:thumbsup:
Thanks for the scriptures Taffy.....I had some of those in mind too
especially that last one........ :icon_flower:
Yo SG :icon_flower:
for sure ya knew girl.. :icon_flower:
more for the benefit of those who MAY be lurking :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 06, 2007, 03:39:10 PM
Willie.
You must be in Christ to be alive.
IN Christ.
Hmmm...
1 Corinthians 15:22 ...
SAYS...
AS ...
IN... ADAM ...
ALL...die
which means that ALL humans DIE because we are found, ...
IN...
Adam... but the verse doesn't STOP there... there is another ...IN... to be noted! It goes ON to
SAY:
Even so, ...
IN... CHRIST shall ...
ALL... be made ALIVE...
This follows the previous context which speaks of ADAM (the first man) being a living soul, the lists CHRIST as a QUICKENING SPIRIT... that ADAM was "earthy", but CHRIST was the Lord from HEAVEN, ...that FIRST comes NATURAL, then the SPIRITUAL... and notes that those who have borne the image of EARTHY, shall ALSO bear the image of the HEAVENLY...
Your agenda to disprove UR is NOT going to take a foothold here Dusty... and changing your name to Peacetroll has not made your previous attempt any more successful than this one...
Quote from: PTRomans 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 12:5
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
Romans 16:7
Salute Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen, and my fellow-prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.
You see Paul himself KNEW that he was not IN CHRIST prior to believing IN CHRIST.
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
I don't know how to make that much clearer.
And to be in Christ you must believe IN HIM.
Ah well.
Ah well? Does that mean you are giving up this endeavor to convince us of your EXCLUSIVE Salvation "GOSPEL"? :dontknow:
Did YOU put YOURSELF ...IN CHRIST ...PT? Or was it HIS doing?
To be IN CHRIST, ...is GOD's accomplishment, and NOT MAN's...
The problem with your deduction that BELIEF is necessary to be SAVED, is that YOU think that YOUR ABILITY to BELIEVE, originated IN YOU... which means that in essence, YOU are YOUR OWN ...SAVIOR...
It is CHRIST that provides ALL ASPECTS of SALVATION to the recipients of it! FAITH which enables us to BELIEVE, ...is DEALT by GOD, ...not gained or decided by MEN (Rom 12:3)
If MAN's work (obedience) or decision (accepting Christ :rolleye: ) is PIVOTOL in his Salvation, then GOD is no longer producing EVERY ASPECT and is DEPENDING upon US to gain SALVATION by those WORKS and DECISIONS...
This is plainly and completely the case brother... you are just either unwilling to see it, or you have not been given the eyes and ears to see it...
Peace... :boogie:
In
JESUS
...willieH :drummer:
All will be made alive in Christ. Does not mean all are presently alive in Christ. Salvation comes in the resurrection of the dead; which for some has not yet occurred.
Quote from: Taffy on November 06, 2007, 11:37:43 PM
Yo SG :icon_flower:
for sure ya knew girl.. :icon_flower:
more for the benefit of those who MAY be lurking :icon_flower:
Blessings
Taffy
:mblush: :grin:
Quote from: Craig on November 07, 2007, 12:47:52 AM
All will be made alive in Christ. Does not mean all are presently alive in Christ. Salvation comes in the resurrection of the dead; which for some has not yet occurred.
Yeah.......I can see that Craig, but it's tricky......because from our view many are still asleep, but perhaps from the realm of the Father all are alive in Him (isn't God omnipresent?) and have always been. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 06, 2007, 10:00:52 PM
Lake of fire represents total destruction.
The most powerful word for destruction in the New Covenant is olethros and I can guarantee you that salvation is fully embraced in the final outworking of it! If you think the Lake of Theos Pur is total destruction, perhaps our God who is consuming pur is also total destruction. :thumbsup:
Quote from: FineLinen on November 07, 2007, 03:23:50 PM
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 06, 2007, 10:00:52 PM
Lake of fire represents total destruction.
The most powerful word for destruction in the New Covenant is olethros and I can guarantee you that salvation is fully embraced in the final outworking of it! If you think the Lake of Theos Pur is total destruction, perhaps our God who is consuming pur is also total destruction. :thumbsup:
Just a small note. It is not the Limme Theos Pur, it is the Limme Pur.
Reveation 20:15 "And whoever was not found written in the lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
Kai ei tis heurisko ou grapho en biblos
zoe ballo eis
limme pur.The word 'Theos' in not found that statement.
Craig......are you saying that God is not found in that Fire......that destruction?
QuoteAh well? Does that mean you are giving up this endeavor to convince us of your EXCLUSIVE Salvation "GOSPEL"?
Willie.
I'm not trying to convince anyone who will not listen.
You must be IN Christ.
You must be BORN AGAIN (The spirit).
Believe as you are led. As for me, I will follow Christ' teachings
over all others.Peacetroll.
P.S. As for your 'exclusive' claim. Here is my reply:
Job 34:13-15
Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
If he set his heart upon man,
if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself
a peculiar people,
zealous of good works.
Who are you to Judge God's work?
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 07, 2007, 06:13:08 PM
QuoteAh well? Does that mean you are giving up this endeavor to convince us of your EXCLUSIVE Salvation "GOSPEL"?
Willie.
I'm not trying to convince anyone who will not listen.
You must be IN Christ.
You must be BORN AGAIN (The spirit).
Believe as you are led. As for me, I will follow Christ' teachings over all others.
Peacetroll.
Hey Peacetroll.......do you believe that all will be born again...if not already......surely at some point the the big picture.....some season of Life?
I believe Jesus Christ.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Few find it in this life PT the scriptures do talk about a resurrection of the dead and how many are raised up again for destruction, and some for life.
"There shall be a resurrection of the dead, both the of the just and unjust."—Acts 24:15.
I can see how reincarnation can come into play on this......just some thoughts I've had..........we shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed.
Still I believe that every knee will bow in the end. For everything there is a season........
He is the beginning and the end of all things......
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 07, 2007, 06:13:00 PM
Craig......are you saying that God is not found in that Fire......that destruction?
That question is vague. God is found everywhere, there is no where God is not. He is omnipotent. Though do not let that confuse the issue. If a brother murders his brother, it is not God who did it; but the brother. The Lake of Fire, according to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Malachi, etc. and the even the gospels is created in the same way, it is a result of man who lights his own fire to guide himself, did you not read Isaiah 55 quote?
Just think about it. If Jesus is the narrow gate that leads to life, which few find. Then who is the wide gate to destruction? Not everyone will have eternal life, in this life. Those who do, do not enter the wide gate.
Stainedglass.
Yes, you are right, there will be a resurrection of all flesh, and John also expounds on it:
John 5:28-30 (King James Version)
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Matthew 23:33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
What is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Thessalonians 1
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Philippians 3:18-20
(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
the damnation is destruction.
2 Peter 2
10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
I hope you will consider my point. It is only by the GRACE of GOD that we have heard (called) and believe in Christ Jesus. Not of ourselves.
Peace.
So Craig and PT.....does reincarnation come into play with all this, or is there another way to make sense of the resurrection of the unjust?
I tend to think of how there are different kinds of plants.....ever green and deciduous.....
the ever green stays green (full of life) year round.....hence the name........and the deciduous has seasons of life and death.
QuoteWhat is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being
I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can. "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed. There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.
There is a great cleansing going on.
First, you are seriously deluding yourself if you believe all spirits are from the Father of Love. Jesus made this VERY CLEAR that it was NOT THE CASE. THOSE WHO LOVE CHRIST ARE OF GOD.
Proof?
John 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
One has two choices. To believe Jesus Christ OR NOT.
At anyrate, this is elementary. The Wicked are resurrected for the day of Wrath. And the righteouss to everlasting life.
Some vessels are fitted for honor and glory, some to wrath and destruction.
The wicked for destruction....
Job 21
Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me.
For ye say, Where is the house of the prince? and where are the dwelling places of the wicked?
Have ye not asked them that go by the way? and do ye not know their tokens,
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.
The righteouss to everlasting life....
Matthew 25
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal
IF Christ is NOT IN YOU, AND YOU IN HIM, YOU ARE NOT EVEN ALIVE TO THE TRUE GOD.
Proof?
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Therefore if the flesh means little to nothing (all flesh perishes), it is the SPIRIT that matters. And if you don't have Christ in you, and you in Christ, you're spirit is DEAD, Period.
.
He is living water.......all water is water...Right?? all comes from the same place....... and yet not all the same here.......
there is purified water........mountain water.......and there is also raw sewage water........breeding gouds for all forms of unclean things......filth.......
Let me ask you PT........what is the process that the unclean water must undergo in order to get back into the clouds?
Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Two Trees.
Two Fathers.
Light and Darkness.
Wicked and Righteouss
Life and Death.
Two Spirits.
Spirit of Error VS Spirit of Life and Truth.
Forgive others, in hopes that your Father is the father of Love.
............and darkness leads to sunlight.....A new day comes, its alright PT :dsunny:
WillieH: Hi PT... :hithere:
QuoteAh well? Does that mean you are giving up this endeavor to convince us of your EXCLUSIVE Salvation "GOSPEL"?
Quote from: PTWillie.
I'm not trying to convince anyone who will not listen.
You must be IN Christ.
You must be BORN AGAIN (The spirit).
No one is arguing the fact that SALVATION requires BELIEF (faith), and that one must be
IN CHRIST to be ALIVE in the Spirit... :rolleye:
What you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed
IN CHRIST, ...
BY CHRIST... :dontknow:
WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT? Did YOU do them for YOURSELF? Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU? Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?
It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual... :omg:
CHRIST is ETERNAL... That which is ETERNAL, ALWAYS IS... and NEVER CHANGES!
John stated that... God SO
LOVED THE
WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is
ETERNAL PT)... the "
WORLD"
is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...
IN... it...
The word translated into english: "
WORLD" is the Greek word "KOSMOS" which means WORLD in a wide or narrow sense, literally or figuratively, and is DERIVED from the word KOMIZO which means to: Provide for... keep from harm... bring... receive... :dontknow:
If GOD so
LOVED the "
WORLD"... then He
DID LOVE the
WORLD,
DOES LOVE the
WORLD and
ALWAYS WILL LOVE the
WORLD...
QuoteBelieve as you are led. As for me, I will follow Christ' teachings over all others.
Peacetroll.
That goes without saying brother... :grin:
Just because you have a perception of "following" CHRIST's teaching brother, does not mean that perception has complete REVELATION... And each of us are "following" as best we can, according to the degree of REVELATION we each have - eh?
I am certain (after 25yrs of interaction) that ALL that are in the various "churches" BELIEVE in CHRIST and HIS TEACHINGS and are "following" as best they are able... but FEW of those MANY, ...have correct REVELATION of those teachings...
SALVATION is NOT according to how much, or little Revelation we have... it is according to CHRIST's WORK, ...not ours...
His WORK was to SEEK and to SAVE, that which was LOST (Luke 19:10)... He is finished with His Work pertaining to ETERNITY, however... concerning the manifestation of it IN TIME, ...is actively DOING that WORK in each individual which occurs
IN DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:3-6)
Quote from: PTP.S. As for your 'exclusive' claim. Here is my reply:
Job 34:13-15
Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Who are you to Judge God's work?
I do not judge GOD's work PT... I see it as COMPLETE... and UNDEFEATED... COMPLETELY VICTORIOUS... WITHOUT, ...respect of PERSONS... PT...
But YOU teach EXCLUSIVITY and Respect of PERSONS... for you do NOT include ALL... only those SELECTED... which BREAKS the Scripture if TRUE...
There are TOO MANY VERSES which INDICATE SALVATION as ALL INCLUSIVE...
I do find it interesting that you often bark about CHRIST's Teachings, and don't even use His quoted words here, to prove your point... :dontknow:
Rather, you use an OT verse, accompanied by one from Paul's writings... :mshock:
Peace... :mfriends:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 07, 2007, 07:55:34 PM
QuoteWhat is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being
I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can. "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed. There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.
There is a great cleansing going on.
I don't agree with PT's ultimate conclusion. But I do want to show you this Scripture. The spirit within us, is created. The spirit of man can be destroyed, but God will not destroy it. The souls of man, are created.
Isaiah 57:16For I will not contend forever, neither will I be angry always, for [if I did stay angry] the spirit [of man] would faint and be consumed before Me, and [My purpose in]
creating the souls of men would be frustrated.
Though the Lake of Fire, according to Isaiah 55, does not destroy in the way of utter annialation, it destroys in a different manner, when finally there is no more strength, and they lie down to suffer for it.
QuoteWhat you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed IN CHRIST, ...BY CHRIST...
WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT? Did YOU do them for YOURSELF? Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU? Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?
It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual...
Willie.
You will be hard pressed to find any post of mine that diverts from the gift of God. Not of ourselves.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
willieH: Hi PT... :laughing7:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 07, 2007, 08:11:16 PM
Luke 9:55
But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Two Trees.
Two Fathers.
Light and Darkness.
Wicked and Righteouss
Life and Death.
Two Spirits.
Spirit of Error VS Spirit of Life and Truth.
Forgive others, in hopes that your Father is the father of Love.
Being that I already addressed this "list", let me say, that until GOD draws one to Himself (John 6:44 & 65)... one remains
"fathered" in ADVERSITY... which is the NATURAL man...
But upon being DRAWN [dragged] to the Cross (John 12:32)...
YHVH becomes the "Father" of that one... for He/She has come to Him THROUGH CHRIST... and NOT of his/her own DOING, but of the WORK by the SPIRIT of GOD...
FORGIVENESS is something that comes FROM CHRIST, from WITHIN (who IS the INWARD man, spoken of by PAUL)
Of himself... man demands the CARNAL which DOES
NOT FORGIVE enemies, nor "turn's the other cheek", ...and is founded in UNFORGIVENESS... and VENGENCE...
Peace... :mfriends:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
QuoteJohn stated that... God SO LOVED THE WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is ETERNAL PT)... the "WORLD" is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...IN... it...
Conveniant to leave the rest out.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that
whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here is the UR version:
John 3:16 (UR Version):
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.
What a twist. which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction
willieH: Hi PT... :hithere:
QuoteWhat you currently fail to see is, ...that one is placed IN CHRIST, ...BY CHRIST...
WHO performed these two things in YOU, PT? Did YOU do them for YOURSELF? Did YOUR FAITH, originate from YOU? Or was it instituted IN YOU, ...BY CHRIST?
It is CHRIST who puts a given individual IN HIMSELF... not the individual...
Quote from: PTWillie.
You will be hard pressed to find any post of mine that diverts from the gift of God. Not of ourselves.
Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Good!
But if ANY are excluded (as you purport)... then YOU make GOD a RESPECTER of PERSONS bro!
CHRIST came to seek and SAVE the LOST... the FACT remains, that
ALL are LOST... brother PT!
Your perception is that one lump of dirt is more valuable to God than another... it just is NOT SO!
Dirt is dirt... and one lump of it is not of any more value than another!
But because GOD creates a LIVING BEING of it... which makes EACH LUMP, ...completely, ...INVALUABLE!
And WILL SAVE, ...EACH, ...INVALUABLE, ...LUMP!
Know this bro, ...BOTH the vessels of DISHONOR and HONOR, are found in the SAME LUMP! (Rom 9:21 / Jer 18:4)
Peace... :mfriends:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
Lets try this again.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here is the UR version:
John 3:16 (UR Version):
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.
Talk about TWISTING DOCTRINE.
As for your accusation that I make God a respecter of persons, what is written in the scriptures??? Have you not read?
Deuteronomy 7:7
The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
Does God not choose whom he will choose?
It has nothing to do with the person or his works, but it is of GODS DOING.
Let us depart from this converstation, for it is ostensible that we both cling to our understanding with no movement of ground.
Christ is Hope for all who believe.
P.S. The vessel is flesh. The vessel is Adam (bones and blood).
It is the wine (spirit) inside that concerns the true God. All vessels (flesh), shall return to dust. Period. But God will redeem his breath and spirit.
Peacetroll
A few quotes from another great Book/Movie
Hitchhiker's guide to the Galaxy
Resistance is Useless
or
Don't Panic
:bgdance:
Everything is going according to plan.
All is well.
Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Quote from: Craig on November 07, 2007, 08:40:19 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 07, 2007, 07:55:34 PM
QuoteWhat is that damnation? It is destruction of their very being
I absolutely don't agree with this PT....a being cannot be destroyed only the flesh can. "To be" is the part that is of the "I AM", and cannot be destroyed. There is absolutely something worth redeeming in each and every individual or else Christ would not have died to save the whole world.
There is a great cleansing going on.
I don't agree with PT's ultimate conclusion. But I do want to show you this Scripture. The spirit within us, is created. The spirit of man can be destroyed, but God will not destroy it. The souls of man, are created.
Isaiah 57:16
For I will not contend forever, neither will I be angry always, for [if I did stay angry] the spirit [of man] would faint and be consumed before Me, and [My purpose in] creating the souls of men would be frustrated.
Though the Lake of Fire, according to Isaiah 55, does not destroy in the way of utter annialation, it destroys in a different manner, when finally there is no more strength, and they lie down to suffer for it.
I can see that.....
PT........what hope do you give to those parents who have lost their children who died in unbelief?
I believe that these parents......will see their children again.....it is the same for our Heavenly Father........meaning the Father will be reunited with His lost child again.
....and the child will no longer be lost.......
Here is my nutshell explanation of those who seem lost.
The millinium.
The day of the Lord's return, all flesh will be raised. All those who did not have a chance to understand will be given a chance. All those who did not believe will have a chance to 'choose whom they will serve'.
This is only the first go around. The 'iron rod' rule of Jesus on his return will give everyone (even those who hate Christ), the opportunity to repent and to come to him.
Yet, there will still be those who hate christ. These are the thorns and briers that are folded together (who come against the City of the Saints), and burned with Gehenna fire at the last day (second death).
In NO WAY do I believe those who die in unbelief now are without hope.
It would take alot of scripture to back my explanation. Perhaps in time we can go through this, if we so desire.
Peace to you in Christ.
So you believe it's possible that all will repent.......
Is it possible?
PT, What about the every knee shall bow scripture?
They bow during the millinium, but they await their evil councilour.
They then come together against the City of the Saints (after the iron rod rule of Christ; when satan is loosed again), and try to kill Christ and his. Then God burns them with Gehanna fire. They are as the sands of the sea. (See Revelations, Isaiah and Jeremiaha).
Revelation 20
.6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Again Nahum also prophecied of the time spoke above by John...
Nahum 1
The LORD has His way
In the whirlwind and in the storm,
And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry,
And dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither,
And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
5 The mountains quake before Him,
The hills melt,
And the earth heaves at His presence,
Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before His indignation?
And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire,
And the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The LORD is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble;
And He knows those who trust in Him.
8 But with an overflowing flood
He will make an utter end of its place,
And darkness will pursue His enemies.
9 What do you conspire against the LORD?
He will make an utter end of it.
Affliction will not rise up a second time.
10 For while tangled like thorns,
And while drunken like drunkards,
They shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.
11 From you (The thorns or the wicked) comes forth one
Who plots evil against the LORD,
A wicked counselor.
The fire coming down from God out of heaven IS THE SECOND DEATH. I don't think any of us want to risk being apart of those who come against the camp of the saints at the end of Christ's earthly rule (the 1000 years wether metaphoric time or not).
Peace in Christ; the only hope.
Well the millennium is your stumbling block. There is no literal 1000 years.
Your theology is somewhere between ET and Annihilationism
Next stop
UR
I cannot see how if by your scenario everyone is raised and will meet Jesus face to face the epitome of Unconditional love, will be able to hate him. Nonetheless, let us stick with this scenario.
That is of course when the lamb will lie with the leopard and the lion will eat grass.
Interesting how animals will suddenly go from carnivores to herbovores seeing their anatomy is designed for their food diet. Wonder why they did not talk about elephants, giraffe, hippos, emus, crocodiles, kangaroos. So I guess there is a metaphorical meaning to this too.
Any way, you still on the train and that is a good thing.
Blessings
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 07, 2007, 08:49:19 PM
QuoteJohn stated that... God SO LOVED THE WORLD... PT (this is a statement which is ETERNAL PT)... the "WORLD" is the CREATION and EVERYTHING ...IN... it...
Conveniant to leave the rest out.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Here is the UR version:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that wether you believe or not you will not perish, but have everlasting life.
What a twist.
Such perverse wording... you should be ashamed... :shakepoint:
No one who BELIEVES in the SALVATION of ALL, holds this as teaching... YOU would be HARD PRESSED to find a PERSON on this forum (who BELIEVES in UR), that has stated
such NONSENSE!
ALL will
BELIEVE in DUE TIME... and when they do (Phil 2:10-11 / Rom 14:11 / Is 45:23)... they shall NOT PERISH!
YOU are the one who gravitates to CONVENIENCE, thinking that YOU are prized by GOD above MANY others... such is thinking is completely founded in VANITY... brother PT!
:laugh: Concerning GOD's LOVE, ...I did not leave out the balance of John 3:16 according to convenience... I was trying to establish ETERNAL perspective... of GOD's LOVE!
Buy FYI:
BELIEF does NOT ...ORIGINATE... in men of themselves Peacetroll... FAITH is dealt to EVERY MAN, ...by GOD (Rom 12:3)
And, ...NO MAN
CAN (is able to) come to CHRIST except the FATHER DRAW [drag] HIM... (John 6:44) ...so much for your "belief" originating in your heart,
of yourself! :rolleye:
Is Your FAITH brother,
AUTHORED and
FINISHED... by Peacetroll? :dontknow: NOT! :mnah:
ALL
FAITH, is AUTHORED (originated/alpha) and FINISHED (completed/omega), ...By CHRIST! (Heb 12:2)
And
FAITH is NOT of OURSELVES as you rightly noted in Eph 2:8-9!
So where does that leave us dear brother? It means that BELIEF which is a product of
FAITH, is DEALT out, ...and AUTHORED, ...and FINISHED ...by CHRIST!
And as SCRIPTURE NOTES... God has NO RESPECT of PERSONS... :winkgrin:
In each one, IN DUE TIME (1 Tim 2:6)
Peace... :URWelcome:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
QuoteI cannot see how if by your scenario everyone is raised and will meet Jesus face to face the epitome of Unconditional love, will be able to hate him. Nonetheless, let us stick with this scenario.
Please.
Did the pharisee's love him though they met him face to face.
There is your answer seeker.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.Nothing will change the next time for the Sons of Satan.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 07, 2007, 09:43:35 PM
QuoteI cannot see how if by your scenario everyone is raised and will meet Jesus face to face the epitome of Unconditional love, will be able to hate him. Nonetheless, let us stick with this scenario.
Please.
Did the pharisee's love him though they met him face to face.
There is your answer seeker.
John 8:40
But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
Nothing will change the next time for the Sons of Satan.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
More shortsightedness brother... PAUL noted:
(
Rom 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should BE IGNORANT of THIS MYSTERY... lest ye should be wise
IN YOUR OWN CONCEITS, ...that
BLINDNESS in
PART, is happened to ISRAEL, ...UNTIL, the FULLNESS [ALL] the Gentiles COME IN...
So the COMPLETE compliment of GENTILES "come in"... then, PAUL notes:
(
Rom 11:26) And so ALL ISRAEL [including those that rejected Him, for ALL means ALL] ...shall, ...be, ...SAVED!
Paul is noting the moving of the PURPOSE of GOD... that HIS CHOSEN PEOPLE would be BLINDED, in order that the GENTILES be SAVED!
The Pharisees were BLINDED in order to FULFILL the CRUCIFIXTION of CHRIST, that the SACRIFICE for ALL would be ENABLED!
Keep searching brother Dusty... if you keep searching, you WILL find! :handshake:
Peace... :URWelcome:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 07, 2007, 09:28:53 PM
They bow during the millinium, but they await their evil councilour.
They then come together against the City of the Saints (after the iron rod rule of Christ; when satan is loosed again), and try to kill Christ and his. Then God burns them with Gehanna fire. They are as the sands of the sea. (See Revelations, Isaiah and Jeremiaha).
Revelation 20
.6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Again Nahum also prophecied of the time spoke above by John...
Nahum 1
The LORD has His way
In the whirlwind and in the storm,
And the clouds are the dust of His feet.
4 He rebukes the sea and makes it dry,
And dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither,
And the flower of Lebanon wilts.
5 The mountains quake before Him,
The hills melt,
And the earth heaves at His presence,
Yes, the world and all who dwell in it.
6 Who can stand before His indignation?
And who can endure the fierceness of His anger?
His fury is poured out like fire,
And the rocks are thrown down by Him.
7 The LORD is good,
A stronghold in the day of trouble;
And He knows those who trust in Him.
8 But with an overflowing flood
He will make an utter end of its place,
And darkness will pursue His enemies.
9 What do you conspire against the LORD?
He will make an utter end of it.
Affliction will not rise up a second time.
10 For while tangled like thorns,
And while drunken like drunkards,
They shall be devoured like stubble fully dried.
11 From you (The thorns or the wicked) comes forth one
Who plots evil against the LORD,
A wicked counselor.
The fire coming down from God out of heaven IS THE SECOND DEATH. I don't think any of us want to risk being apart of those who come against the camp of the saints at the end of Christ's earthly rule (the 1000 years wether metaphoric time or not).
Peace in Christ; the only hope.
So in other words you don't believe it's possible........
I don't see much hope in what you teach PT.......if you actually believe what you're saying........ya gotta always wonder if you're bowing for the moment, but awaiting your evil councilour. :dontknow: :sigh:
Seeker, Surely you know that nobody can call Jesus Christ Lord and God (and mean it, which only God can judge), without the Spirit of the Most High Love.
I won't even bother replying.
It is evident to me you know not what the true definition of a 'Man' is. For precept is built on precept. And if you don't understand the TRUE definition of 'MAN' you will always stumble as you can not hear therefore you can not understand.
Good-day.
P.S. And if I be wrong, prove it and give me your description I'd be more then happy to take this to the one-on-one for finality. Your definition VS the one given to me.
Jonathan Mitchell New Testament"For this reason, God also lifts Him up above (highly exalts Him; elevates Him over) and by grace gives to Him (graces on Him) the Name -- the one over and above every name! -- to the end that within The Name: Jesus! (or: in the name of {or: belonging to} Jesus), EVERY KNEE -- of the men upon the heavens (of those belonging to the super-heavens) and of the men existing upon the earth and of the men dwelling down under the ground (or: pertaining to subterranean ones) -- may bend (should bow) in worship or prayer, and EVERY TONGUE may speak out the same thing (should openly agree, confess and acclaim) that Jesus Christ [is] Lord [= Yahweh?] -- into [the] glory of Father God (or: unto Father God's reputation)!"
P.T. saysQuoteAll nations shall bow to him, but not of their own will. Therefore it can be stated that all nations shall bow (during the millinium), but only because he forces them too with an IRON ROD!!!
And...
QuoteThese who hate Christ shall also bow, but they do this only because he FORCES PEACE AND JUSTICE AGAINST THEIR WILL!!
Au contraire!
All beings in all dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld ultimately bow before Him in worship. The Greek states that this is in willing worship and praise and celebration and most assuredly not by rote or perfunctory genuflections, culminating in resounding glory to God.
ejxomologevw = To confess/ profess
To acknowledge openly and joyfully to one's honour.
To celebrate.
Robertson New Testament Word PicturesThat in the name of Jesus every knee should bow (ina en twi onomati Ihsou pan gonu kampshi).
First aorist active subjunctive of kamptw, old verb, to bend, to bow, in purpose clause with ina.
Not perfunctory genuflections whenever the name of Jesus is mentioned, but universal acknowledgment of the majesty and power of Jesus who carries his human name and nature to heaven. This universal homage to Jesus is seen in Romans 8:22; Ephesians 1:20-22 and in particular Revelation 5:13.Rev. 5:13 -Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament-Every created thing (pan ktisma).
Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).
No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
Always Paul.
Try utilizing anything but Paul to support UR.
Difficult to do, and it should not be.
Always using the very apostle that the other apostles proclaimed as saying 'things hard to be understood['.
Ah well. I'm beating my head against a wall.
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 08, 2007, 02:16:56 PM
Always Paul.
Try utilizing anything but Paul to support UR.
Would you like to hear the words of a few prophet's of the most high God concerning the restitution of all things starting, but not limited to, Isaiah? Nah :thumbdown:
You have a small testament there matey, minus the thirteen epistles of the apostle St. Paul. :dontknow:
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 08, 2007, 01:56:51 PM
Seeker, Surely you know that nobody can call Jesus Christ Lord and God (and mean it, which only God can judge), without the Spirit of the Most High Love.
And who gives us the ability to call Him Lord?
QuoteI won't even bother replying.
It is evident to me you know not what the true definition of a 'Man' is. For precept is built on precept. And if you don't understand the TRUE definition of 'MAN' you will always stumble as you can not hear therefore you can not understand.
I haven't a cooking clue what you on about here
Good-day.
QuoteP.S. And if I be wrong, prove it and give me your description I'd be more then happy to take this to the one-on-one for finality. Your definition VS the one given to me.
I do not think this is necessary, too many questions here you still need to refute. Interesting now we are at a Mid Acts perspective. We had a JWO debate on the last board.
What really confuses me is the theology you portray here is neither ET nor UR, like I said before, you are somewhere in between. I seriously doubt anything you say here will convince anyone to stop believing in UR.
There is a global awakening to this truth, many are discovering it w/o any influence of UR input. People question hell as it makes no sense to the Spirit of Love. I have come across quite a few on the net and from all over the world.
Are you looking carnally at world events and trying to match them to end times? It is obvious looking at your political posts. I sense in you a profound despair.
I have been on my walk for 17 years now and ET ran out of revelation and truth for me 16 years ago, long before I even knew what UR was.
What makes people reject UR, it takes away their "speciality" in their minds. God loves all and will save ALL.
You are running a gauntlet here and you weave between post after post, challenge after challenge and you have not come out with one rebuttal of substance.
Folk here have a deeper understanding and revelation of the Word than what you will find elsewhere.
Luk 5:36 And He also spoke a parable to them: No one puts a piece of a new garment on an old garment. Otherwise, both the new will tear, and the old does not match the piece from the new.
Luk 5:37 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins. Else the new wine will burst the wineskins and be spilled, and the wineskin will perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new wineskins, and both are preserved together.
Luk 5:39 Also no one having drunk old wine immediately desires new, for he says, The old is better.
Have some
(http://www.vivisjournal.com/vivis_wine_notes/bouncin_baby_blogs.jpg)
New wine
Quote from: Peacetroll on November 08, 2007, 02:16:56 PM
Always Paul.
Try utilizing anything but Paul to support UR.
Difficult to do, and it should not be.
Always using the very apostle that the other apostles proclaimed as saying 'things hard to be understood['.
Ah well. I'm beating my head against a wall.
Hi again, Peacetroll,
I do love Paul, and precisely for the reason you imply here. He most certainly is the clearest and most forceful teacher in the Bible proclaiming Jesus as the triumphant savior of all men.
But he is not alone.
It is Peter who tells us that the salvation of all men is the very specific will of God.
It is John who tells us that Jesus is the popitiation for our (Christians) sins, but not for ours only but for the sins of the whole world. And it is John who tells us that God IS love, even if it is Paul who helps us (far better than anyone else) to understand what love is... ie., patience, kindness, generosity, selflessness, forgiveness, steadfastness, and PERMANENCE.
I am not a scholar like you or willie or Fine Linen (and if you all are not scholars, you certainly have studied long and hard), but I can still see the reality of Christ's conquering throughout the Bible. If one quotes Paul a lot in proving it, I cannot see how that is a bad thing. As Fine Linen points out, Paul wrote about 1/2 of the entire New Testament.
Peace and blessings to you,
Andy
This may all be well and true, but as many have indicated, it is not the end of the story. Indeed, we are aware that all men are sinners, we all fall short of the glory of the Lord. To that end, the book of life must be a very short book!! I think (my opinion) is that we must look at that reality, as well as the concept of Jesus' sacrifice for ALL mankind.
Looking at this world today, we see that sinfulness is on the increase. It knows no boundaries, not by race,creed, income, there are no boundaries. Poor sin in different ways from rich, yet all sin. Devout Christians sin differently from devout Muslims, yet we all sin. Sin is universal, as the bible tells us. Only one was truly free from sin. Perhaps this is one of the many lessons we learn from genesis. When we became knowledgable, we sought out our own glory, not the Lord's. As knowledge increases, so too does our pride in humanity, not love of each other or God. Is this not sinful of itself? And yet God loves us, and gave his Son up for us. Not for the salvation of the few, God's love is Unconditional. It defines the term! So how can one claim righteousness and salvation for oneself, but not for others. That of itself seems a very proud attitude, and pride is a deadly sin, no?
Quote from: Reverend G on November 08, 2007, 04:45:30 PM
This may all be well and true, but as many have indicated, it is not the end of the story. Indeed, we are aware that all men are sinners, we all fall short of the glory of the Lord. To that end, the book of life must be a very short book!! I think (my opinion) is that we must look at that reality, as well as the concept of Jesus' sacrifice for ALL mankind.
Hello RG,
Already explained, that there is only one Name in the book of Life. Those who possesses this Name are granted access to the tree of life. Jesus said narrow is the gate that leads to life, few find it; wide is the gate that leads to destruction. Already explained, anyone part of the Body of Christ, belongs to the Head. Already explained those who Ambassadors possess this Name. Those are priests were given this Name. Those who are Children of God, bear this Name.
Scripture also says, if the world is reconciled to God through Jesus, then the message of Reconciliation is that the worlds sin is not taken into account. So all men being sinners and falling short of the Glory of God, is true; but doesn't matter in view of the Judgment Seat.
QuoteLooking at this world today, we see that sinfulness is on the increase.
Sinfulness is a remains constant. There is no more sinfulness in mankind today, then there was in the days of Jesus.
QuoteIt knows no boundaries, not by race,creed, income, there are no boundaries. Poor sin in different ways from rich, yet all sin. Devout Christians sin differently from devout Muslims, yet we all sin. Sin is universal, as the bible tells us. Only one was truly free from sin. Perhaps this is one of the many lessons we learn from genesis. When we became knowledgable, we sought out our own glory, not the Lord's.
Proverbs and Psalms and Ecclesiastes does not have any negative that results from knowledge alone. The negative comes from when one begins to take pride in his knowledge and can't keep tight lips, because one who uses his knowledge to justify any wrong he commits, is in sin. Though one could have easily used his knowledge to recognize his own sin, and give it back to God. The knowledge of good and evil, is not evil; it is neutral.
QuoteAs knowledge increases, so too does our pride in humanity, not love of each other or God. Is this not sinful of itself? And yet God loves us, and gave his Son up for us. Not for the salvation of the few, God's love is Unconditional. It defines the term! So how can one claim righteousness and salvation for oneself, but not for others. That of itself seems a very proud attitude, and pride is a deadly sin, no?
The church many years ago, sought to destroy all worldly knowledge and limited the reading of the Bible only to the head clergy. They came up with the same conclusion, but how well did that work out? The few in power became corrupt, created new rules and new regulations that were not found in Scripture; prevented the masses from being knowledgeable between what is good and what is evil, blurred the lines of morality for the sake of money and power.
The treatise against knowledge is faulty, it has never been knowledge which has been evil, it is man's disobedience which has resulted in sin and man's pride keeps him from admitting his error and continually blaming it on others. With knowledge comes responsibility, even a fool is seen as wise if he keeps his mouth silent.
Craig
Hey Craig.......do you believe that the one name is Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that there is only room for ONE son?
I CONCUR with what Craig simply shared. The body being a part of the head..US in HIM ..HIM
iN US.. AS Ambassadors BEARING HIS NAME.
The Book of LIFE ""is"" Christ just as the TREE of LIFE.
Blessings
Taffy
Hi SG
Do you believe that there is only room for ONE son?
the 42nd generation is in progress
Blessings
Taffy
Hi SG
Look at it this way, Jesus is the Book of Life. All who are in Christ are in the Book.
All will eventually be in the Book
Make sense?
Blessings
SG
heres more on the 42nd generation..it really is worth Reading.
http://www.gem-international.org/kingdomlife/42nd_generation.htm
Blessings
Taffy
Thanks Taffy and Seeker......I'll be looking into that..... :icon_flower:
42nd generation......that's interesting.......
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 08, 2007, 05:27:53 PM
Hey Craig.......do you believe that the one name is Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that there is only room for ONE son?
Jesus took captives captive and when he was lifted up, he drew all men unto Himself. What the Father gave Him, nothing can take from His Hand. There is only One Name we are identified with because He became our propititation for our sin, and a ransom for all mankind, which will be testified in due time. As Paul states in Colossians, all things exist in, by and through Him. When God looks at us, He sees His Son, who died for us and rose again three days later. We were just talking about the Name written in the Lambs book of Life, is His Own and we are being conformed to that image!
The number of sons of God, will number the sands of the sea. Jesus gave us to God, and is not afraid to call us brothers.
Quote from: Craig on November 08, 2007, 06:22:27 PM
Quote from: StainedGlass on November 08, 2007, 05:27:53 PM
Hey Craig.......do you believe that the one name is Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that there is only room for ONE son?
Jesus took captives captive and when he was lifted up, he drew all men unto Himself. What the Father gave Him, nothing can take from His Hand. There is only One Name we are identified with because He became our propititation for our sin, and a ransom for all mankind, which will be testified in due time. As Paul states in Colossians, all things exist in, by and through Him. We were just talking about the Name written in the Lambs book of Life, is His Own and we are being conformed to that image!
The number of sons of God, will number the sands of the sea. Jesus gave us to God, and is not afraid to call us brothers.
:cloud9:
It must be time for me to get off of this computer and go get some things accomplished.
Just not doing well at including quotes in my replies and such, I'll get it, in time. Anyways, when I was taken to task for saying knowledge causes sin, if you reread my post, you find that I said as knowledge increased, so did pride (a sin) which is exactly what I was being scolded for not saying? Is that not a connection between knowledge and sin?
And of course, saying sinfulness has not increased in this world is a very subjective statement. All sin, so 100% sin, so no change. However, with billions more people sinning, you do the math.
In the end it doesn't matter, I doubt I will change anyones opinion, but of course, it doesn't matter! Which makes me very happy.
What is a Man?
What is mankind?
Is the physical body what defines 'man'?
Is it the bones? The blood?
Or is it something else?
I agree with all on the topic of Christ being The Book of Life. Some very nice discussions going on here about that. I enjoy.
Quote from: Reverend G on November 08, 2007, 07:01:11 PM
And of course, saying sinfulness has not increased in this world is a very subjective statement. All sin, so 100% sin, so no change. However, with billions more people sinning, you do the math.
Thanks for the reply,
I will say simply. There is more people, but the increase of people does not increase the sinfulness of people. The ratio of sin to man, has not changed. There is no more sinfulness than there was before, because men has had to deal with each other from the very beginning. Whether it was 100 people dealing with 50 sinful people or a billion people dealing with half a billion sinful people (for simplicity sake) the ratio would still be 2:1.
QuoteIn the end it doesn't matter, I doubt I will change anyones opinion, but of course, it doesn't matter! Which makes me very happy.
It is always easy to want to change the opinions other people and pass it off as their stubborness and pride if they don't change. But it is more difficult to admit when we are wrong and change our opinion because of our stubborness and pride.
What would make me happy, is when we start to mold our beliefs around what is true instead of molding the truth around what we believe.
Quoteif you reread my post, you find that I said as knowledge increased, so did pride (a sin) which is exactly what I was being scolded for not saying? Is that not a connection between knowledge and sin?
Knowlege has nothing to do with it. It was because of the pride of man, that he ate the tree of knowledge in the first place, or did we forget the reason they ate of the tree of knowledge was to be like God before they ever knew what knowledge was. Sin was in the garden far before the knowledge of it. Pride was in the garden before they knew what it was. Putting the blame on knowledge as the cause of sin, and to say that knowledge is the source of pride is completely and utterly wrong. It is like saying there is more crime in our city, because there is more people reporting it; but in reality, crime rates in cities have remained constant but now more people are aware of what crime is and reporting it. Reporting the crime, did not raise the crime; reporting the crime made people aware that there was crime! It is the classic if I do not see it, it is not happening scenario, or kill the messenger.
I am a sales man for an advertising company. I got four contracts that were late assignments and I decided to do an experiment to prove my point. For two of them, I apologized that we were late and that nobody would come down to deal with them in person concerning their advertising, but I am here to help them if they have any questions. For the other two, I just called them normally, although we were late and they would not get a person to visit, I did not make mention of our error. Want to know the results? The two in which I said I was sorry for our late call and that they would not get a personal visit from me, cancelled their advertising because we did wrong to them. The two which I did not make any mention of our error, renewed and one even increased their advertising for that year.
Knowledge of evil, nor knowledge of sin has ever made anyone more sinful or more evil than they have ever been. People just do not want to be conscious of the evil they are doing or recieving, so when the knowledge of evil arrives it makes them aware. Then they have two choices, either repent of the evil they are doing or kill the messenger and remain in sin because 'ignorance is bliss'. Recognize that evil exists even before the was knowledge of it. The constant error is to associate that the knowledge of evil is the cause of evil, or that the knowledge of evil results in more evil when in reality evil was always present and ever more increasing even before people were ever aware of it.
Here is the BIGGER PICTURE:
Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his,"and, "
Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness." -2 Timothy 2:19
Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. So watch yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him." -
Luke 17:1-4Brothers, if someone is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should restore him gently. But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. -
Galatians 6:1Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins. -
James 5:20You cannot turn away from wickedness with the knowledge of wickedness. You cannot rebuke a brother whom through whom sin comes to save him from death without knowledge of sin. You cannot restore a person caught in sin with the knowledge of evil.
Knowledge makes people responsible and accountable for their actions, and there is many people who do not want to face the evil they have done, nor accept the evil that is being done to them by others for the sake of their own emotional comfort, they would rather not know even if it means their own death because that still scares them.
Take care.
Quote from: SeekerSA on November 08, 2007, 05:40:12 PM
Hi SG
Look at it this way, Jesus is the Book of Life. All who are in Christ are in the Book.
All will eventually be in the Book
Make sense?
Blessings
This is the basis of a new song my wife and I have written! :bgdance:
Peace... :URWelcome:
In
JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
What can I say craig?
I am truly sorry. Though I make it quite clear that sin could or could not have increased, depending on how you measure it, you continue to abide that there is only one measuring system.
You take what I have said about knowledge, the pride humanity takes in its knowledge, and the sin that results, so first you repeat me almost verbatim once, after calling me wrong, and then you sidestep and again say the same thing.
I can accept that. I am not out to convert peoples hearts and minds. I already believe what I believe, and most people either agree with me, or believe in a doctrine that is more punishing than what I believe. Regardless, they believe. So my affecting their opinion does nothing in the eternity of things, just makes everyone a bigger happier family here on earth. I have nothing to lose from accepting or rejecting your opinion, but I choose to reject it. But don't lose sleep over it, I know my salvation is safe.
Quote from: Reverend G on November 09, 2007, 08:18:48 AM
What can I say craig?
I am truly sorry. Though I make it quite clear that sin could or could not have increased, depending on how you measure it, you continue to abide that there is only one measuring system.
You take what I have said about knowledge, the pride humanity takes in its knowledge, and the sin that results, so first you repeat me almost verbatim once, after calling me wrong, and then you sidestep and again say the same thing.
I can accept that. I am not out to convert peoples hearts and minds. I already believe what I believe, and most people either agree with me, or believe in a doctrine that is more punishing than what I believe. Regardless, they believe. So my affecting their opinion does nothing in the eternity of things, just makes everyone a bigger happier family here on earth. I have nothing to lose from accepting or rejecting your opinion, but I choose to reject it. But don't lose sleep over it, I know my salvation is safe.
I understand your point when you say that pride humanity takes in its knowledge, sin results. This was not made clear in your previous posts, especially in the use of your examples and analogies. You had attributed knowledge as the source of sin and pride and so if that was my misunderstanding of your point, I apologize as well.
In my responses, I was demonstrating the flaw in your arguement which says men in greater numbers, results in greater sin. It is an illusion of numbers, and is not reality. And the flaw in believing knowledge increases sinfulness. Reported crime does not mean crime increased, it just means more people report it. Though Scripture does say, the Law was added to increase the trespass, and to what end but death and recognizing exactly how sinful sin actually is. So had you provided that, I would have been in agreement.
This is also not about you accepting or rejecting my opinion, this is a discussion in which we both contribute our opinions, and you do not need to agree to discuss an issue. You participated in the discussion, and so expect to be part of it. It just seems more pleasant when we all agree. Though, like knowledge is not the source of evil, neither is agreeing the source of truth. We must ensure our opinons are formed around truth not vise versa or else it is just another vain imagation man has placed before the truth in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
This is not an issue of you being happy with yourself, I am glad you are. Nor does it have anything to do with your salvation, it was never in question. Please read what I wrote earlier in this thread, and realize those are not an issue. The issue has now has been to correctly handle the word of truth, and this truth is knowledge which will be testified in due time. So whether you accept it or not, is not my priority, my responsibility in our discussion is those who may be lurking and do not understand that though ignorance (lack of knowledge) is bliss, it also leads to destruction.
1 Peter 1:13-15Therefore, prepare your minds for action; be self-controlled; set your hope fully on the grace to be given you when Jesus Christ is revealed. As obedient children, do not conform to the evil desires you had when you lived in ignorance. But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."
Though I am not yet a perfect example of this epiphany of truth, I still will quote Paul who gives the example.
2 Timothy 2:23-26Refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels. The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
If you wish to discuss this more, I am more than willing to continue this discussion if you decide to continue to discuss it. We can always agree to disagree and leave it at that.
God Bless,
Craig
Quote from: willieH on November 08, 2007, 09:55:30 PM
Quote from: SeekerSA on November 08, 2007, 05:40:12 PM
Hi SG
Look at it this way, Jesus is the Book of Life. All who are in Christ are in the Book.
All will eventually be in the Book
Make sense?
Blessings
This is the basis of a new song my wife and I have written! :bgdance:
Peace... :URWelcome:
In JESUS
...willieH :scoutshonor:
I'd love to hear the song when you're finished WillieH.....
Hope you're feeling better.
Should I stop waiting for your explanation/definition of what a 'Man' Is Willie? :dontknow:
For precept IS built upon precept, is it not?
Unless we understand the spiritual definition of 'Man' How can we understand?
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
Colossians 1:9
For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
John 3
12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
Jesus Christ.
The earthy see's only carnal. The spiritual concerns itself with the spiritual. Therefore it is the SPIRITUAL definition of 'MAN' and 'Mankind' That is of the higher concern to God.
My definition of MAN........for PT.......
A Man is the sum total of his thoughts.
We're all asking the same question -- What am I?
..........and God says -- I AM
Thats an
excellent secular explanation, I've heard before and held to that belief, its as good as you can get from a carnal view (at least its not describing a man as his body).
How about the spiritual?
I can't contain myself. Mankind are those with MAN indwelling.
Jesus Christ is the Son of MAN.Matthew 20:28
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
THE MAN is GOD.I take it this is self evident...
A being with God indwelling.Hebrews 2:11
For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
John 14:11
Believe me that I am in the Father (MAN), and the Father (MAN) in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Man In Christ. Christ In Man.
John 10:30
I and my Father are one.
An entity with Christ in them and they in Christ....
Colossians 1:27
To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ (MAN = Father = Christ Jesus) in you, the hope of glory:Father and Christ are One. Man (the true name of the Father) in Christ. Man and Christ are one.
Man in YOU the hope of GLORY!!!! Lovin it!
"Father I have declared thy name"...Jesus Christ.
He declared his name....no one seems to hear him...his Father's name is MAN. And Jesus and the Father (Man) are ONE.
Father is a cognomen (title), MAN is his name.
Ephesians 3:14-16
For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father (MAN)
of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
............Like Man or.......... Mankind.
QuoteThats an excellent secular explanation, I've heard before and held to that belief, its as good as you can get from a carnal view (at least its not describing a man as his body).
:grin: Ah yes......let the carnal define the carnal......and what about the spiritual define the spiritual.......I believe there are no words for that...... :girlheart:
You define what a man is PT, and you'll have answered the question that we've all been dying to hear the answer to for thousands of years. (no pun intended) :HeartThrob:
I have attempted to do so seeker.
IT is the accumulation of years of reading and asking for guidance from Jesus Christ. Jesus declared his name, and it's not Yahweh.
The Father's name is Man.
( I hope some of you will review my last post on this thread). :dontknow:
:gangel:
QuoteI and my Father are one.
I like that definition PT.........
I must be missing something. First, as Adam, all shall die. Then, in Christ, all shall find eternal life. So, from this follows, if we are not IN Christ, we don't get to live again? This is very cool. I just decided I don't believe in Adam. Therefore, since I am not IN Adam, don't believe IN him, I get to be outside of the "all" that die? Why do I not see a choice or any type of restriction to a certain "elect" few in the word ALL? I'm sure the tirades and such will follow, tearing apart at this, since it does not say IN Adam. But to me the explanation is obvious. Adam is not a vessel of eternal life, therefore we are not all IN Him. The important context is not those who are IN Christ, it says ALL are saved IN him. He is the vessel for ALL. It does not say ALL, except for some, will get eternal life in HIM. Just plain ALL. Some choose to believe we are IN the vessel, ALL are saved.
Of course your words will be picked apart. Now, find every Scripture that says you will be judged according to your works and your words and find out what happens to those who persist in wickedness after tasting of the power of the Holy Spirit and what happens to those people who have invested everything in the world, but not in heaven. Even Jesus said don't store up treasures which pass away with this world, but build up treasures in heaven which do not pass away. So if you don't believe in Adam, believe in Jesus Christ because he said if we don't believe in Him, we will indeed die in your sin. The priveledge of reigning with Him, goes to those who believe. The priveledge of being the remnant goes to God's choice in whom should carry the message. The priveldge of being saved goes to Jesus who died on the cross and rose again, drawing all men to Himself. And if you want to use the word, All, as your qualifacation, you will realize that ALL are not thrown into the Lake of Fire.
It's all cool. I was just being a smart aleck based on someone else's post. I really do believe there was a first man, duh, there had to be, but someone was posting that only through being IN Christ can we be saved. I am IN Christ, but believe that ALL will be saved. It was just a dereliction of words, the point being that it seems absurd that what we choose to believe will affect our hereafter. How simple it would be if just choosing not to believe in Adam could preclude our earthly death. Sinilarly, that only through belief in Christ do we receive eternal life. Silly humans, pretending to be more powerful than the One.
I understand. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree objective truth is objective regardless of our subjective view to it. If we are saved based on the testimony and ransom of Christ, to be testified in due time, then we are saved based on the testimony and ransom of Christ and it will be testified in due time. That is why Paul could talk to the Greeks on the hill, and tell them, "as your poets wrote, 'in Him we live and move and have our being'" because objectively, it doesn't matter or theology or philosophy of men concerning the truth but the objective reality of God is the truth.
Now concerning eternal life, all will have it; not all will have it in this life. Jesus made it clear; Eternal Life is the knowledge of God and the One whom He sent for the Salvation of all. So yes, the only way a person can have eternal life is to believe it; or else they did not retain that knowledge and suffer the misery of self-suffering in the dead works of mankind, which we have already been redeemed from.
Have you read the parable of the three strangers? It is a parable of three strangers who are on a ship, each recieve a letter. Two read it, one ignores it. Of the two who read it, one understands, the other presumes to know. By the end of the journey, the one who read the letter and understood, did not work once and spent almost all his time with the Captain. The one who read but presumed to know, met the Captain a few times but was too busy trying to earn this right, missing more than a few meals with the Captain. The one who did not read, was burned, and knocked around as he took on a job in the engine room, not thinking himself even worthy to spend time with the guests on the deck. As they exitted the boat, the Captain pointed out to the two who did not eat with him, that their ticket was all exclusive and on the expense of himself, he was waiting every day to see them. The two strangers began to weep and cry regretting their actions. While the one who read and understood the letter, hugged the Captain and thanked him for the wonderful journey. In the end all three were comforted in realizing the truth, and finding out the Captain was their Brother and they were all going back to the Father's house.
QuoteHe is the vessel for ALL. It does not say ALL, except for some, will get eternal life in HIM
All IN him will see life.
Those IN him believe IN him.
Matthew 7:14
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and
few there be that find it.
John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
All are in Adam that are born of woman. Adam is the flesh. First man is earthy (fleshy).
All that are IN Christ are made alive, by the gift of the spirit. ALL in Christ are alive NOW.
All in the flesh shall die (All in Adam or in the flesh). All in Christ shall live.
John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water (In Adam) and of the Spirit (In Christ), he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
One can not enter the Kingdom of God unless they are IN Christ. AND
TO BE IN Christ, you must LOVE HIM....and this is the clear truth.
I'm somewhat puzzled that people are confused by what it means to be IN Christ and IN Adam.
If you are born of flesh, you are in Adam.
If you are born of the spirit, you are In Christ.
Not all In adam are in the Light/Christ, but some are in the darkness/Satan.
Born of Water = Born In Adam = Born of flesh = Earthy = condemned to die.
Born of Spirit = Born in Christ = Born of the Spirit = Heavenly = salvation and eternal life in the Kingdom of Jesus Christ.
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.Those who believe IN Jesus abide NOT in darkness/Satan, but in the light/Christ.
Troll: In the final segments of our Father's great Plan the entire creation is seen as being in Him and singing in harmonious strains of worship.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=1454.0
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."-Revelation 5:13- Robertson New Testament Word PicturesEvery created thing= pan ktisma.
Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).
No created thing is left out. This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation (ktisiv) in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.
If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off.
All the creatures and entities that remain shall rejoice for certain.
And all that remain will be those IN Christ.
For the Chaff will be consumed as Jesus said, all tree's that bear no good fruit shall perish. No doubts.
I will always believe Jesus over all others. And when THE TRUTH says 'few there be that find it', I tend to take his word over all else.
Do you?
Plan A
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Plan b minus
"And every creature [that remains] which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Evidently ta pavnte does not mean the all: the all in the heavens, the all on the earth and the all under the earth (celestial, terrestial, subterrean) but only those creatures "that remain". Again, my friend, all beings in all dimensions of the heavens, the earth, and the underworld bow in union with the Name of Jesus, in thanksgiving, celebration, praise and worship. That would be the ta pavnte.
QuotePlan A
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
Notice it doesn't say dead or destroyed creature. Every creature is referring to living creature. So every [living] creature which is in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, blessing and honour, and glory and power, be unto Him that sits upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Nobody can use that excuse that there is no salvation for mankind then, because mankind will be raised from the dead. There is no promise of all creation being raised from the dead, the only promise is for mankind, whom God has chosen to bring from the dead.
Next, we have to address now, that phrasee. They said "...and unto the Lamb for ever and ever." which means that the living creatures will still only be living for an age, because the unto the Lamb for ages of ages, or for an age and an age, means it will finally come to an end because everyone in UR knows [sic], ever has a beginning and and end.
Manipulation of propositions is not reason, nor is it sound reasoning. Dead creatures do not praise him. Destroyed things do not praise him. They do not exist. All means all, and in this case it is talking about all creatures. This means by their intrinsic nature, all is talking about all living creatures, since all dead creatures don't exist, they are dust. Next, aion and aionion/aionios/etc. can have a perpetual meaning as well as a limited one, because it just means "Lasts as long as it lasts"
"...and unto the Lamb who is for as long as He is."
Scripture use of the words "death" and "destruction." HERE (http://www.tentmaker.org/restofall5.htm)
For this reason it is that the word "destruction," as used in Scripture, never means annihilation. Take for instance the words of the xcth Psalm, "Thou turnest man to destruction: again Thou sayest, Come again, ye children of men." Can "destruction" here be annihilation? Is it not rather that dissolution which must take place if fallen creatures are ever to be brought back perfectly to God's kingdom. So again, Job says, (chapt. xix. 10,)
QuoteHe hath destroyed me on every side, and I am gone";
and again, (chapt. ix. 22,)
QuoteThis one thing I said, He destroyeth the perfect and the wicked."
But does he mean to say that he is brought to non-existence, or that the "perfect" will be so destroyed, that they will exist no longer? So, again, St. Peter says, (2 Ep. iii. 6,) "The world that then was perished." So, again, of the present heavens and earth it is said, (Heb. i. 11, 12,) "They shall perish, . . . and be changed." So, again, both of Israel and Jerusalem it is said, (Deut. xxx. 18; Jer. xii. 17; xv. 6;) that they shall be "destroyed" and "perish." But does any one suppose that therefore they will be annihilated?
So, again, as to the expression, "them that perish," sometimes translated "the lost"; (see 2 Cor. iv. 3; 1 Cor. i. 18; 2 Cor. ii. 15;) do we not know that these "lost," though they "perish," still exist, and exist both as "lost" ones and "saved" ones, as text on text will testify abundantly. So as to the righteous, in the well-known passage of Isaiah; (chapt. lvii, 1;) "The righteous "perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart";--is this "perishing" non-existence?
So, again, where we read, in Psalm lxxxiii. 16-18, "Fill their faces with shame, that they may seek thy name, O Lord: let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame and perish; that men "
(literally " they ," for the word " men " is not in the Original,) "may know that Thou, whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth;"—men are to be "confounded for ever and perish, that they may know Jehovah."
So as to the question, "Wilt Thou shew wonders to the dead? Shall the dead arise and praise Thee? Shall thy loving-kindness be declared in the grave, or they faithfulness in destruction?"—is the true answer, Yes, or No? Is not the "losing" or "destruction" of our fallen life the only way to a better one?
Does not our Lord Himself say more than once, (S. Matt. x. 39; xvi. 25; S. John xii. 25;) that the way to "save our life," or "soul," is to "lose it," or "have it destroyed," in its fallen form, that it may be re-created? These last words should of themselves settle this question, for in one place, (S. Matt. x. 39,) they occur in immediate connexion (see verse 28,) with those other well-known words, as to "fearing him who can destroy both body and soul in hell," which are constantly quoted by some to prove, as they think, that "destruction" must be non-existence. And yet, in the very closest connexion with these words, our Lord repeats the self-same word, "destroy," (in our Authorized Version translated "lose"—it is the word apollumi, on which some build so much,) to express that death and dissolution of the soul, which, so far from bringing it to non-existence, is the appointed way to save it. Christ saves it, as we have seen, by death; for being fallen into sin, what is needed is "that the body of sin should be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." (Rom. vi. 6.) The elect, that is the first-fruits, are the living proof of this. A "new man" is created in them, and the "old man" dies and is destroyed, while yet he in whom all this is done remains through all the same person. It may be, and is, a riddle, like "dying, and behold we live: having nothing, and yet possessing all things"; yet it is only the riddle of the Cross, that "by death God destroys him that has the power of death." Therefore, though destruction, like death, may be, and is, a ceasing from some particular from of life which has been lived in by man, yet it is never non-existence absolutely; rather it is the means to bring the fallen creature into a new life, a chaos being ever the necessary condition for a new creation.
Apollumi & OlethrosAs for the argument, founded by some on the word apollumi , that because it is one of the strongest in the Greek language to express destruction, therefore that destruction must be irremediable, the simple answer is, that the question is not whether the destruction is great, but whether God is not still greater, and therefore whether He is not able even out of the destruction to bring forth better things. This at least is certain, that both in the New Testament and in the Classical Greek, the word in question is used of those who though "destroyed" are yet "saved."
To the passages already quoted from the New Testament I will only add one more:--"The Son of Man is come to seek and to save that which was lost :" (S. Luke xix. 10.) As an example of the Classical use of the word, I give the following from one of the Greek poets, (quoted by Justin Martyr, De Monarchia , cap. 3; and by Clement of Alexandra, Strom , lib. v. cap. 14,) bearing on this very question of the restoration of the lost:- "__________" And the New Testament use of the word _______ proves that it describes, not so much preservation from future or threatened judgment, (in which case ______ would be used, as in S. John xvii. 15, Rev. iii. 10, Jude 1, 1 Thess. v. 23, &c.) but rather deliverance out of some present and oppressing evil. So we read, (S. Matt. ix. 21, 22,) "And the woman said within herself, if I may but touch His garment, I shall be made whole," that is restored to health; "and the woman was made whole," that is restored to health, "from that hour." So again, (S. Mark v. 23,) "And Jairus besought Him greatly, saying, I pray Thee, lay Thy hands upon her, that she may be healed." So too, (S. Mark vi. 56,) "And as many as touched Him were made whole." So too, in reference to Lazarus, (S. John xi. 12,) "Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well," that is, he shall be restored to health. See also S. Luke viii. 36; xviii. 42; Acts iv. 9; S. James v. 15; &c. See also what is said of our Lord, (Heb. v. 7,) that "in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers unto Him that was able to save Him from death," (literally " out of death,") "He was heard in that He feared."
But He was not preserved from death, but delivered out of it. Our salvation also, like our Lord's, for we are His members, is not from death, but by it, and out of it.
Once again confirming as I have said from the beginning. God is talking concerning mankind.