Fear Vs Horror

[peacemaker]

The pharasees were instructed by Jesus to beware.

Mt 23:33  "Serpents! Progeny of vipers! How may you be fleeing from the judging of
Gehenna?

"Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues..." (vs. 34)

[Paul Hazelwood]

But even the pharasees had hope.


Mt 23:39 For I am saying to you: You may by no means be perceiving Me henceforth, till you should be saying,  Blessed is He Who is coming in the name of the Lord!'"

[peacemaker]

"May peace be within your walls."

peacemaker

[peacemaker]

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

Love cannot be born out of a fear of punishment. True love is selfless without the presence of fear, which pours itself out on the object of it's affection; not demanding anything in return, but truth and sound judgment. Although I understand your perception, given the age of a child who may be unable to comprehend at present.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."

To develop or form the habits, thoughts, or behavior of a child or other person by discipline (correction) and instruction.

peacemaker

[lomarah]

The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom. My daughter is a year and a half. She does not yet understand that she cannot run out into the road without being in danger of being hit by a car. But she does understand that Mommy and Daddy will get VERY upset if she goes near the road without holding one of our hands. When she gets older she will realize why and she will be very grateful, i'm sure, that we instilled that fear into her.

Knowing that God will hold me accountable and will punish me if need be makes me feel secure and safe. (For example, He punished Ananias and Sapphira, David and Bathsheba, and many more.) I am grateful for God's punishments because they are always for my benefit, to make me into His image of goodness and righteousness. And they are always just.

Love cannot be born out of a fear of punishment. True love is selfless without the presence of fear, which pours itself out on the object of it's affection; not demanding anything in return, but truth and sound judgment. Although I understand your perception, given the age of a child who may be unable to comprehend at present.

"Train up a child in the way he should go, Even when he is old he will not depart from it."

To develop or form the habits, thoughts, or behavior of a child or other person by discipline (correction) and instruction.

peacemaker

I agree that love is not born out of punishment or fear, I am only saying that love will correct for the sake of the loved one.

When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness. -Isaiah 26:9

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. - Revelation 3:19

[Universalist Catholic]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

[Lefein]

Finite man can't even comprehend the infinite, let alone be responsible for what it doesn't know.

I can only wonder at the Damnationalist mindset; who is the bigger man?  The spec of dust that is human, or the infinite all graceful God?

[thinktank]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

But man is not infinite, therefore a limited sin, requires limited punishment.

[WhiteWings]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

I don't know wh first wrote that UC.
I just quoted some "wisdom" from the ET thinktank... :mshock:

[WhiteWings]

If rejecting the infinite God requires punishment of infinite duration, I guess the punishment itself should be of infinite severity....

Thats not even scriptural or reasonable.  I think it was Thomas Aquintas who stated that in Theological Summa.

But man is not infinite, therefore a limited sin, requires limited punishment.

Man is infinte. Everyone has eternal life.
Eternal life in heaven for the saints.
And because the wages of sin is death; eternal life in hell for the sinners.

Smart peepz those ETarians  :icon_jokercolor:

[thinktank]

I don't know wh first wrote that UC.
I just quoted some "wisdom" from the ET thinktank... :mshock:


A bright light enters............"whitewings why ETist thou me"

whitewings: "Is that you lord"

.....umm not quite I just wearing my new silk shiny robe bought from china, the light is what you make it. But now I know why so many people here hate me, coz you think I'm an Etist, it's a simple mistake to make, I only torture people for a few minutes with my posts (or hours depends on person), then they have freedom for the rest of the day, while others plot revenge, similar to how the enemies of Jesus plotted revenge on him. But seriously I hope my words have not been to tortureous, otherwise my future career as a pastor is over, I'll have to apply to be a trafficwarden instead.  :icon_joker: :icon_jokercolor:

[Beloved Servant]

I don't understand your statement.

Are you implying that a traffic warden is a lowly occupation?

[thinktank]

I don't understand your statement.

Are you implying that a traffic warden is a lowly occupation?

No, a lot of people hate trafficwardens because they hand out tickets, they think they are mean people who enjoy booking them despite all their pleading that where they parked is a legitimate parking space.

[Beloved Servant]

Hmmm, never thought of one that way.

The signs are obvious to those that look for them.

[thinktank]

Hmmm, never thought of one that way.

The signs are obvious to those that look for them.

I haven't either and thankfully never been booked but I perceive that the general population does think of them as mean because trafficwardens are often taken the mickey out of on TV comedy.

Some of the signs though are not so obvious, I can understand why some drivers would get angry for being booked, such as driving a pregnant women to hospital and geting booked for parking the car illegally etc these instances I pray love will prevail over law.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I don't think anyone here hates you, TT..... :sigh:  :girlheart:

[thinktank]

:cloud9: I don't think anyone here hates you, TT..... :sigh:  :girlheart:

I don't know what to say I was just joking around with whitewings -  but personality number 7 says thank you for your reassurance.   :boyheart:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Oh, ok, missed the context, I guess, LOL   :mblush:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi everyallofya's...  :laughing7:

This is an older thread, but some of the things that were mentioned got completely ignored... So I pose the following, and if you choose to reply to these, ...please reply with Scriptural foundation for any views you might hold in regard to them:

1.  ...FEAR is being in the state of TURMOIL --- If FEAR is indeed a part of the GOSPEL of PEACE (and should be taught accordingly), ...and TURMOIL was addressed by CHRIST speaking PEACE to the STORM (the elements being IN TURMOIL)  Please name one element of TURMOIL which is an INTREGAL and NEEDED part of the definition of PEACE.  :JCThink:


2.   ...In the Scriptures, GOD is noted as LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and LOVE is defined in 1 Cor 13 -- Please note where FEAR is found in this description...  :JCThink:


3.   ...If GOD intends us to FEAR (phobos=afraid) Him... and HE is UNCHANGING, then are we to be in FEAR eternally?   So any portion of His DIVINITY which would require us to be AFRAID (phobos) of Him,  shall by His claim to be UNCHANGING,  therefore continue forever?  :JCThink:


4.   ...Paul H. notes the assertion in this topic, that FEAR and HORROR (as if) they are 2 different things  "fear VS horror"...   

Please s'plain 2 me, the diff?  ...How shall one be without or disassociated with, ...the other? 

If one is in FEAR (afraid) of something, is one not in ...HORROR of it?  Or if one is in HORROR of something, is not one in ...FEAR (afraid) of it?  :JCThink:

Merriam webster:
hor·ror noun \ˈhȯr-ər, ˈhär-\
Definition of HORROR
1a : painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me


5.  If FEAR is indeed part of the message of PEACE, then why was PEACE wished by the writers, and FEAR COMPLETELY disincluded in almost ALL (but 3) of the OPENING (or closing) Salutations of the letters to the church in varying communities?  -- Eph 1:2 -- Rom 1:7 -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:2 -- 1 Thess 1:2 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 -- Titus 1:4 -- Philemon 1:3 -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 -- 2 John 3 -- 3 John 14 [closing] -- Jude 2   :JCThink:


:Peace: (not "FEAR") be untayiz...  :grouppray:


...willieH  :cloud9:

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hi everyallofya's...  :laughing7:

This is an older thread, but some of the things that were mentioned got completely ignored... So I pose the following, and if you choose to reply to these, ...please reply with Scriptural foundation for any views you might hold in regard to them:

1.  ...FEAR is being in the state of TURMOIL --- If FEAR is indeed a part of the GOSPEL of PEACE (and should be taught accordingly), ...and TURMOIL was addressed by CHRIST speaking PEACE to the STORM (the elements being IN TURMOIL)  Please name one element of TURMOIL which is an INTREGAL and NEEDED part of the definition of PEACE.  :JCThink:


2.   ...In the Scriptures, GOD is noted as LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- and LOVE is defined in 1 Cor 13 -- Please note where FEAR is found in this description...  :JCThink:


3.   ...If GOD intends us to FEAR (phobos=afraid) Him... and HE is UNCHANGING, then are we to be in FEAR eternally?   So any portion of His DIVINITY which would require us to be AFRAID (phobos) of Him,  shall by His claim to be UNCHANGING,  therefore continue forever?  :JCThink:


4.   ...Paul H. notes the assertion in this topic, that FEAR and HORROR (as if) they are 2 different things  "fear VS horror"...   

Please s'plain 2 me, the diff?  ...How shall one be without or disassociated with, ...the other? 

If one is in FEAR (afraid) of something, is one not in ...HORROR of it?  Or if one is in HORROR of something, is not one in ...FEAR (afraid) of it?  :JCThink:

Merriam webster:
hor·ror noun \ˈhȯr-ər, ˈhär-\
Definition of HORROR
1a : painful and intense fear, dread, or dismay <astonishment giving place to horror on the faces of the people about me


5.  If FEAR is indeed part of the message of PEACE, then why was PEACE wished by the writers, and FEAR COMPLETELY disincluded in almost ALL (but 3) of the OPENING (or closing) Salutations of the letters to the church in varying communities?  -- Eph 1:2 -- Rom 1:7 -- 1 Cor 1:3 -- 2 Cor 1:2 -- Gal 1:3 -- Phil 1:2 -- Col 1:2 -- 1 Thess 1:2 -- 2 Thess 1:2 -- 1 Tim 1:2 -- 2 Tim 1:2 -- Titus 1:4 -- Philemon 1:3 -- 1 Pet 1:2 -- 2 Pet 1:2 -- 2 John 3 -- 3 John 14 [closing] -- Jude 2   :JCThink:


:Peace: (not "FEAR") be untayiz...  :grouppray:


...willieH  :cloud9:

The scriptures speak for themselves in this matter.  There is no reason for Jesus to warn anyone about thier behavior if there is nothing at all to be concerned with.  If Love makes us all giddy no matter what we do, then Jesus was blowing hot air concerning the things he said as warnings to people.  If the prostitute could just be all giddy and carefree about being a prostiture then Jesus was telling the prostitute to go and sin no more for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

While you can quote verses of Love, this thread was not disputing LOVE, so just to make that clear,  I believe God is LOVE, but GODS LOVE is not necessarily what a person wants it to be.

The intention was to point out that it is healthy to take a perspective in life that says you are accountable for what you do, it is actually deterimental to a persons emotional and spiritual well being to believe that horrors await someone who doesn't always measure up because God is loving and gracious and merciful, but he never promises to spare you from reaping what you sow.

If you do not like the word fear, use another word,  but we are accountable for our actions and words and the scriptures tell us so. 

[Lefein]

If God didn't chasten us, he'd be a hateful father.  A father who doesn't chasten his son hates him.

Proverbs 13:24  He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Paul...  :cloud9:

Though you quoted my post, you hardly answered any of the points in it... which is fine... but raises the question, why quote it?  :dontknow:

The scriptures speak for themselves in this matter.  There is no reason for Jesus to warn anyone about thier behavior if there is nothing at all to be concerned with.

Your opinion is duly noted... but it certainly depends upon which "version/translation" one is reading, as to what the Scriptures "speak" concerning this matter... As I have already noted earlier in the thread...  :laughing7:

Well... Cancer, Aids, Tuberculosis, Heart disease, Shingles, Emphysema, Leprosy, MS, and the like are no "Party at the park"...

Behaviors in the Flesh which are contrary to the stated commands of God, are subject to myriads of available and compounding corruptions...  :dontknow:   And certainly these and many others are reputable enough "horrors" to merit a fearfulness of them entering into ones circumstances...  :dontknow: 

Not to be afraid of GOD, ...rather to become aware and concerned over ones own DECISIONS in the conducting and living of LIFE, which CARELESSLY include INDULGING in that which is contrary to the command of God.

But PEACE is what the Cross establishes and what the GOSPEL is all about, as well as that for which the GOSPEL is named, ...which DOES NOT include, ...FEAR! -- Eph 6:15 -- Rom 10:15

When one embraces the GOSPEL, one endeavors to separate him/herself from continuing in that which is FEARFUL and DETRIMENTAL...

Thereby LOVE working IN the believer -- Gal 2:20 -- is seen casting OUT said FEARS that seek to assault the LIFE of the believer.

If Love makes us all giddy no matter what we do, then Jesus was blowing hot air concerning the things he said as warnings to people.  If the prostitute could just be all giddy and carefree about being a prostiture then Jesus was telling the prostitute to go and sin no more for absolutely no reason whatsoever.

Please...  :shakepoint:

FIRST --- no one is suggesting that we become "giddy" over the guiding LOVE of God... rather that in our best interests, we shall find a course which sidesteps those things which represent FEAR/horror, by the obedience of SOWING to the SPIRIT as opposed to sowing to the FLESH.  :dontknow:

SECOND --- It is plain to see that CHRIST sought for the protitute to embrace SIN-LESS practices in her life, that more of the same did not befall her... He did not WARN her that she should BE FEARFUL, rather He recommended to her guiding REASON in light of that which was experienced by her in the incident that had just occured...  :dontknow:   And due to His obvious LOVE for her, He recommended to her the pathway that was BEST for her to travel... which was to SIN no more. :nod:

While you can quote verses of Love, this thread was not disputing LOVE, so just to make that clear,  I believe God is LOVE, but GODS LOVE is not necessarily what a person wants it to be.

My post was about "FEAR vs HORROR" ...which are not in OPPOSITION to one another as the thread title indicates... they indeed are the same thing... and in this answer, you have not at all explained the slightest difference between them.

The intention was to point out that it is healthy to take a perspective in life that says you are accountable for what you do, it is actually deterimental to a persons emotional and spiritual well being to believe that horrors await someone who doesn't always measure up because God is loving and gracious and merciful, but he never promises to spare you from reaping what you sow.

I never stated or insinuated that --- "He promises to spare you from reaping what you sow" --- It is my position that it is NECESSARY that one reaps what one sows... as well as this process taking place NOW... not in some invented and dreaded and FEARED, "afterlife".

If you do not like the word fear, use another word,  but we are accountable for our actions and words and the scriptures tell us so.

FIRST --- I have already shown in detail in another answer in this topic, that several translators disagree with your position on the word PHOBOS... For it also contains the connotation of REVERANCE/RESPECT and/or AWE...  If LOVE is in the business of casting OUT FEAR... then it is not in the business of RECOMMENDING one to gather it in and/or harbor it, ...let alone teaching others to do so...  :thumbdown:

SECOND --- We are giving account of ourselves NOW as we live in our moments... before the ONE that is present in every one of them.  There is no need for YHVH to rehash all the individual distastes contained in our lives... but when He is become ALL in ALL, ...then ALL shall be known of our lives by ALL...

When we KNOW as we are KNOWN (which is completely) -- 1 Cor 13:9-12 -- for when LOVE is revealed in its totality -- 1 Cor 13:8 -- then KNOWLEDGE is no longer an issue, for LOVE in its FULLNESS surpasses KNOWLEDGE -- Eph 3:19

In the mean time, there shall be proponents/teachers of FEAR/horror which only display that they are yet to be made PERFECT in LOVE, for he which is made PERFECT in LOVE, is become devoid of FEAR/horror... 

And he who clings to FEAR/horror as well as teaches others to cling to FEAR/horror... clings to that which is NOT a part of, and is CAST away by LOVE... :nod:

...willieH  :cloud9:

[eaglesway]

My  :2c:

Fear is not a part of the gospel, it is a consequence of darkness and chaos. This consequence is usually the result of rejecting reconciliation. The fear(awe reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom simply because it recognizes the deliverance provided within God's love and also provides an awareness of the consequence of darkness/chaos/disharmony/rebellion. The fear of the consequence of willfully walking outside the covenant of life is..... a part of the law.


If Jesus, or the prophets, or the law, warn us of the consequence it is not so that we would be afraid of God. It is so we will clearly see the choice before us, and understand that God is true to His word. He will chop down the fruitless tree and cast it into the fire. He will purify all our alloys in the fire. And praise God for that, The purifying of our faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire- so, let us buy eyesalve for our eyes and white raiment and gold purified in the fire....according to His council, lest we experience the consequence of ignoring the warning. The warning is merely the trumpet of the coming consequence of our actions, functioning like a tutor, to lead us to Christ where our love is perfected and casts out all fear.


The law lives in the flesh and in the carnal mind as a tutor until it is no longer needed. When it is no longer needed, every unbelieving member has perished in the wilderness, we have entered His rest, having ceased from our own works. The adversaries have been "done away". Now, we walk in "Today, If you hear my voice"... "for all those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God".

Interestingly enough, the word used for "when that which is perfect is come, that which is imperfect will be "done away/made void"(katargeo) is the same word used in 1 Cor. 15 "The last enemy to be "destroyed/done away/made void" is death; and also Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered(katargeo) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(having died to our former life); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law and its partner, fear of death, are no longer needed because love is perfected as a person enters 1)the glorious liberty of the sons of god, 2)the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, 3)"zeal for thine house consumes me", 4)"Behold it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Thy will O God'." Jesus warns of the consequence of refusing to be perfected in love. The wise heed the warning and live. The foolish ignore it to their peril in this life (and for some,IMO, the next-altho I know where you stand on that issue Willie :o)

My point being that if you are outside the newness of the Spirit and still alive unto the flesh....whether flesh as religion/law or flesh as lust of the flesh/pleasures of the mind you will not be perfected in love and you will have fear and fear has torment. That torment is a testimony that we are immature in love. "I pray that you may be one that your joy may be full". Righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost. So we are all(IMO) in measure by measure, with ever-increasing glory, from glory to glory as we behold Him, growing into perfection- that perfection being in love. We can tell how far we have to go by the degree in which fear(and partners anger, pride, lust etc) hold sway in our lives DAY BY DAY. Peace, being the fruit of righteousness,  standing by grace through faith in the love of God DECLARES OUR DELIVERANCE AND OUR VICTORY without the necessity of words, in the fulness of JOY. The dawn growing unto the full day. Thats why sons are peacemakers. Thats why the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown IN PEACE by them that make peace, so, peace brothers, John

He that believes in me has passed from death into life.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Though you quoted my post, you hardly answered any of the points in it... which is fine... but raises the question, why quote it?  :dontknow:

If you read through the thread, I am not sure what more I need to say.  You can reread my previous posts, there is no need for me to repeat myself more.  I couldn't care less if you agree with me or if you think I have not answered all your questions, you can say what you need to say about it to get it off your chest I guess, but you can think what you like about it.

Your opinion is duly noted...

Thank you.

[Paul Hazelwood]

My  :2c:

Fear is not a part of the gospel, it is a consequence of darkness and chaos. This consequence is usually the result of rejecting reconciliation. The fear(awe reverence) of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom simply because it recognizes the deliverance provided within God's love and also provides an awareness of the consequence of darkness/chaos/disharmony/rebellion. The fear of the consequence of willfully walking outside the covenant of life is..... a part of the law.


If Jesus, or the prophets, or the law, warn us of the consequence it is not so that we would be afraid of God. It is so we will clearly see the choice before us, and understand that God is true to His word. He will chop down the fruitless tree and cast it into the fire. He will purify all our alloys in the fire. And praise God for that, The purifying of our faith is more precious than gold tried in the fire- so, let us buy eyesalve for our eyes and white raiment and gold purified in the fire....according to His council, lest we experience the consequence of ignoring the warning. The warning is merely the trumpet of the coming consequence of our actions, functioning like a tutor, to lead us to Christ where our love is perfected and casts out all fear.


The law lives in the flesh and in the carnal mind as a tutor until it is no longer needed. When it is no longer needed, every unbelieving member has perished in the wilderness, we have entered His rest, having ceased from our own works. The adversaries have been "done away". Now, we walk in "Today, If you hear my voice"... "for all those who are led by the Spirit are the sons of God".

Interestingly enough, the word used for "when that which is perfect is come, that which is imperfect will be "done away/made void"(katargeo) is the same word used in 1 Cor. 15 "The last enemy to be "destroyed/done away/made void" is death; and also Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered(katargeo) from the law, that being dead wherein we were held(having died to our former life); that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The law and its partner, fear of death, are no longer needed because love is perfected as a person enters 1)the glorious liberty of the sons of god, 2)the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus, 3)"zeal for thine house consumes me", 4)"Behold it is written in the volume of the book of me, 'I come to do Thy will O God'." Jesus warns of the consequence of refusing to be perfected in love. The wise heed the warning and live. The foolish ignore it to their peril in this life (and for some,IMO, the next-altho I know where you stand on that issue Willie :o)

My point being that if you are outside the newness of the Spirit and still alive unto the flesh....whether flesh as religion/law or flesh as lust of the flesh/pleasures of the mind you will not be perfected in love and you will have fear and fear has torment. That torment is a testimony that we are immature in love. "I pray that you may be one that your joy may be full". Righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost. So we are all(IMO) in measure by measure, with ever-increasing glory, from glory to glory as we behold Him, growing into perfection- that perfection being in love. We can tell how far we have to go by the degree in which fear(and partners anger, pride, lust etc) hold sway in our lives DAY BY DAY. Peace, being the fruit of righteousness,  standing by grace through faith in the love of God DECLARES OUR DELIVERANCE AND OUR VICTORY without the necessity of words, in the fulness of JOY. The dawn growing unto the full day. Thats why sons are peacemakers. Thats why the seed whose fruit is righteousness is sown IN PEACE by them that make peace, so, peace brothers, John

He that believes in me has passed from death into life.

I think most people have missed the point that I was making.

You say fear is not a part of the gospel, ok, but that is not what I was talking about.

Should you fear or not fear willfully sinning against God when you would go and do something knowing full well you were not supposed to?

There is a percentage of people that act like nothing they do matters because of the wondeful glorious gospel of Jeuss Christ,  I know someone who says they bought crack for a homeless person and think they are doing Gods worlk.

I suppose that doesn't matter a hill of beans?

If that's your gospel, you can have it, because it's a rotten stench.