Muslims taking over your town lately?

[Quaesitor]

True, but Jesus did what he did and said what he said as an example for people to follow "and" mature in.  Weapons into plowshares is a kingdom principle of spiritual maturity.  Jesus "is" rest.  He is the Sabbath, he is the Sabbath of Sabbaths in that he is the Jubilee.  Even God told Moses to be still and "watch" as God fought the battles.

And the standing firm again, is not approaching the aggressors, it's simply not moving when they attempt to move you.  It wasn't the general public Jesus had his issues with, it was with the religious minds that kept trying to kill him.  He didn't continue to stir up the synogogues, he took his ministry to the streets and back pastures and such.  It was the religious that kept aggressively dogging him, not the other way around.

That's all I'm trying to say here.

I agree with you about the 'rest' part--but, but, but, lol--what if it's not the Sabbath day, yet?

We were talking about Bonhoeffer on the other thread.  He was a German minister who had the chance to escape Nazi Germany, but he chose to return and stand against the Nazi's.  He ended up in a Nazi prison, and was sentenced to death just before the war ended.

Do you think he shouldn't have taken that position?

I think he realized what Jesus' life on this earth was all about and what was meant by 'take up your cross and follow me.'

It's funny because after watching the movie on Boenhoffer, I thought that was a place where he failed ie:opposing the Nazis.
But even there, his best books were written in prison and I think some cellmates and guards gave their lives to Christ while there.
I don't know, it was my opinion back there but with what Nathan just said, it makes sense and if the Father called Boenhoffer to resist Hitler, who am I to disagree?

Sometimes though, I think christians enter in fights they don't belong to as abortion, gay weddings and euthanasia. Not that these are good things but that they are only a results of the problem - corruption/sin. We have not been called to morally judge the world but love them.

We are strangers in this world, like Daniel in babylon who did not oppose the laws as ungodly for everyone but as agaisnt the Laws of God for him.

I may be wrong.  :Sparkletooth:

[Molly]

Standing against in the book of Daniel--


12There are certain Jews whom thou hast set over the affairs of the province of Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; these men, O king, have not regarded thee: they serve not thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
--Daniel 3


If everyone had stood against as Bonhoeffer did, there would have been no Nazi's.

As it was, he was one of the few lights in a very dark world.

[Nathan]

The mouth of the lions would never have been closed had there never been a Daniel.  Or better yet, there would never have been a manifestation of the three boys who would not bend their knee to an idol and instead of being free in their beleifs were bound.  The very fire that was intended to kill them burned off their bondages and in the fire, they "saw" another among them. 

No fire, no vision.

[Molly]

There would have been no fire [for them] if they had stood with the evil king and bowed to his false gods, either.

[Nathan]

Exactly.  Had they just gone with everyone else, we wouldn't even be talking about them now, they would have just drifted off into history unnoticed.  But . . .they didn't!!

[Molly]

'Draw Muhammad' Cartoonist Goes Into Hiding at FBI's Insistence After Assassination Threat

Published September 16, 2010

| FoxNews.com

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/09/16/draw-muhammad-cartoonist-goes-hiding/

[Nancy]

hi there all,
I am a bit dismayed by this thread as we are all people and i don't like to think of people as 'enemies'.  We are all searching God in our own way.
And remember Islam in the middle ages was very advanced with mathematics, philosophy, architecture,etc, whereas us 'christians' were in the dark with superstition and thoughts of bloodshed.  And when muslims conquered a city, they didn't always kill the people, as the crusaders often did, but allowed them to live (as second class citizens no doubt but still no dead)
The popes often spoke of killing them all, God will keep His chosen ones safe!!!! 
So although we don't like what's happening now, we weren't very enlightened either and we had Christ as our guide.  How much more better should we have been!!  Maybe it's their turn now. 
I believe everything happens for a reason, everything as scripture says has its season.
Godbless
Nancy

[Lefein]

That is not strictly true, it was not Islam that was advanced, it was the middle eastern peoples who where advanced.

The location of the middle east, and the people inevitably under the rule of Islam's religious authorities where in the middle of key trade roads from the east -- India, China, the far east, who where amongst some of the most culturally sophisticated people on the face of the earth at the time.  Chinese gun powder, chemistry, and architecture was a marvel even til the end of the modern era.

The middle easterners inevitably through cultural exchange, gained much of this knowledge.  Another factor that helped their abilities in mathematics was their close proximity to Greece, and the Mediterranean nations that still existed at the time who carried the Greek culture.  Byzantium also had an incredibly sophisticated culture, with architecture, mathematics, and a keen understanding of Greek, and Roman knowledge that survived.  Byzantium was afterall, the eastern half of the cloven Roman Empire that still survived well into the late middle ages long after the Western half (which lead to the fall of Europe and the dark ages anyway) had fallen into dust.

The dark ages where dark, but they weren't as hideous as we think in terms of culture.  Europe wasn't this nation of baffoons, the architecture of Europe as beautifully made; castles, cathedrals, fortresses, chapels, shrines, etc.  Not everything was a dirt field with repressed peasants licking poop...like we like to believe.

As far as the Crusades go, the Muslims where not as nice as believed.

http://www.frontline.org.za/articles/crusades_all_about.htm

An article on the Crusades that I found enlightening.

Just to be fair and balanced...I've gone through my Christian walk getting many a dirty look from Wiccans, and Atheists, and other peoples because Christians "Kill everyone", and "Caused us to not have flying cars, and the cure for aids already because they stunted our smarts-growth" which isn't true at all...  

[Quaesitor]

Just to be fair and balanced...I've gone through my Christian walk getting many a dirty look from Wiccans, and Atheists, and other peoples because Christians "Kill everyone", and "Caused us to not have flying cars, and the cure for aids already because they stunted our smarts-growth" which isn't true at all...

In fact, just by the look of it, I think christianity has brought much peace to a violent world.
In christian nations (not anymore but it is a heritage), you don't see a lot of hungry children freezing on the streets in winter. I tend to think that people are more generous and good than in romans time as an example.
See Haiti and Pakistan or the tsunami in indonesia a few years ago.
Maybe I'm blinded though.

[Molly]

Maybe it's their turn now.

Oh no.  I don't think so.  If you want to give them a turn--move to Iran or Saudi Arabia lol.  But, it's not for me.  I have been set free by my Lord Jesus. :laughing7:


PS They had their turn--ever hear of the Ottoman Empire?  How about the genocide of 2million Armenians during WWI whose only 'sin' was being Christian?

[shawn]

None of that is an excuse to round up and deport muslims in the United States for the sole reason of their religious beliefs.

Because the very criteria that would allow that, could make you next.  

This is Judeo/Christian values?   Then I renounce them.

Not deport citizens.  It's too late to do that.  But deport all non citizens, and not just muslims.  All.

And close our borders.

$$$

[Molly]

"Balkanization"

The political term used when referring to the fragmentation or breakup of a region or country into smaller regions or countries. The term comes from the Balkan wars, where the country of Yugoslavia was broken up in to six countries between 1989 and 1992.


Balkanization, or Balkanisation, is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other.

balkanize - divide a territory into small, hostile states

Balkanize - To break up into small, mutually hostile political units


as in, the balkanization of America.

[jabcat]

I don't believe all are seeking God in their own way.  Many are blinded from seeing Jesus as the Savior.  I also don't believe that everyone in the world is the brother or sister of a spiritually born-from-above believer on Yesu.  Neighbor perhaps [love your neighbor], but brother and sister has to do with the household of faith - and not all are of the faith.

Paul clearly distinguished between believers and unbelievers.  "..you must be continually praying for us..so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans;  for not everyone belongs to the Faith!  Yet the Master is trustworthy, and He will solidly establish you and guard you against the Wicked One [Satan]."  2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 The Christian Bible (1991)

IMO, we need to love them as individuals, but stand against what they stand for.  We don't win them by hating, killing, or persecuting them.  Still we need to stand up and declare I Timothy 4:10 - "we place our hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers"; and "I am the way, the truth and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through Me".

[micah7:9]

I agree Jabcat, and this is only from me;
Jesus died for the WHOLE WORLD, now all this stuff that is going on is surely in The Fathers control or management, so I am confident that He, will, in His Time and His way..bring ALL of us...back into His fold.
Yes times are scary and unsettling, and our nature is to feel the way our nature wants us to feel...but God is LOVE...now you just try and find hate and wars in LOVE.

[WhiteWings]

And remember Islam in the middle ages was very advanced with mathematics, philosophy, architecture,etc, whereas us 'christians' were in the dark with superstition and thoughts of bloodshed.

That's not correct Nancy. They also fell back to their own dark ages. Islam killed their science. Just as Christianity did here for a long time.

[WhiteWings]

I don't believe all are seeking God in their own way.  Many are blinded from seeing Jesus as the Savior.

Their 3rd Calif came to Jerusalem to worship on the place where Abraham, David and others once were. So they got it partly right :winkgrin:

[Cardinal]

I don't believe all are seeking God in their own way.  Many are blinded from seeing Jesus as the Savior.  I also don't believe that everyone in the world is the brother or sister of a spiritually born-from-above believer on Yesu.  Neighbor perhaps [love your neighbor], but brother and sister has to do with the household of faith - and not all are of the faith.

Paul clearly distinguished between believers and unbelievers.  "..you must be continually praying for us..so that we might be rescued from abnormal and wicked humans;  for not everyone belongs to the Faith!  Yet the Master is trustworthy, and He will solidly establish you and guard you against the Wicked One [Satan]."  2 Thessalonians 2:2,3 The Christian Bible (1991)

IMO, we need to love them as individuals, but stand against what they stand for.  We don't win them by hating, killing, or persecuting them.  Still we need to stand up and declare I Timothy 4:10 - "we place our hope on the living God, who is Savior of all men, especially of believers"; and "I am the way, the truth and the Life.  No one comes to the Father except through Me".

:cloud9: I agree Jab.....and we are to do spiritual battle for their souls. If ALL the Christians would pray for the release of these people's souls from the demonic strongholds they have, the battles would cease. Pray ye one for another that YE might be made whole (no longer 2 separated, but ONE). Blessings...

[Nancy]

hi there,
Maybe i haven't got facts write about Islamic societies in the middle ages but i feel that if we as christians were perfect then we could cast the first stone but as history has shown, we have been far from perfect, especially as we had the ultimate peace maker as our guide.  We expelled Jews from our midst even when St Paul himself said that we shouldn't be cocky when dealing with the branches that have been severed for our sake.
We should look at the plank in our own eye before looking at the speck in our brothers eyes'.
When i see we i mean christendom in general and i'm sure that if we were born then we would have believed exactly what the church then preached (catholic church).
Godbless
Nancy

[Molly]

British Muslims want to take over UK [and turn Buckingham Palace into a mosque. :laughing7:]


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/british-muslims-want-to-take-over-the-uk-video


[They're changing guards at Buckingham Palace,
AnjemChousari went down with Alice.]

Look at plank in your own eye!

Nancy, I'm really not interested in having my tongue cut off for refusing to convert to Islam which was done to Armenians in Muslim countries last century.  Planks are not the issue.  Creeping Sharia is.

[thinktank]

British Muslims want to take over UK [and turn Buckingham Palace into a mosque. :laughing7:]


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/british-muslims-want-to-take-over-the-uk-video


[They're changing guards at Buckingham Palace,
AnjemChousari went down with Alice.]

well they've already taken over the white house, even got voted president  :winkgrin:

[Molly]

British Muslims want to take over UK [and turn Buckingham Palace into a mosque. :laughing7:]


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/british-muslims-want-to-take-over-the-uk-video


[They're changing guards at Buckingham Palace,
AnjemChousari went down with Alice.]

well they've already taken over the white house, even got voted president  :winkgrin:

If they start building a dome over the whitehouse, be afraid, be very afraid... :laughing7:

[thinktank]

British Muslims want to take over UK [and turn Buckingham Palace into a mosque. :laughing7:]


http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-national/british-muslims-want-to-take-over-the-uk-video


[They're changing guards at Buckingham Palace,
AnjemChousari went down with Alice.]

well they've already taken over the white house, even got voted president  :winkgrin:

If they start building a dome over the whitehouse, be afraid, be very afraid... :laughing7:

I've heard they'r building a dome right over city center houston  :mshock:   That's a  very different type of dome though  :laughing7:

[jabcat]

 Planks are not the issue.  Creeping Sharia is.

You mean the same sharia law that the "moderate" imam Rauf (Ground Zero area) believes in?  The same Sharia law that allows a man to beat his wife?  However, there's a good side to it.  They're not allowed to hit them in the same place often, and especially to not break any bones or draw blood.  Otherwise, no problem.  Give'em what for.   :thumbdown:

[Molly]

Arab festival 2009: Sharia law,  Dearborn, Michigan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEPod-hxD7g



Arab Festival 2010: Arrested for Being Christian Preachers in Dearborn

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FXDAaiT6os




From the Thomas More Law Center:

Richard Thompson, President and Chief Counsel of the Thomas More Law Center, commented, "It's evident that the Dearborn Police department was more interested in placating Muslims than obeying our Constitution. These Christians were exercising their Constitutional rights to free speech and the free exercise of religion, but apparently in a city where the Muslim population seems to dominate the political apparatus, Sharia law trumps our Constitution."

[Molly]

Arab Festival 2010: Dearborn Police Defending Islam against the Constitution

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Smw9QuH1xkA&NR=1&feature=fvwp


They should have given copies of their gospel to the police... :laughing7: