Eternal Destruction

[jabcat]

Shawn, I understand what you're saying, and if it was meant on a personal level, believe me, I get it.  I apologize for it being linked to an individual member.  I'm sure I could have done a better job in the original post.    You and the other member may be so much more loving and valuing of human life than me personally, that it's not even close.  If so, that's a great thing in your walk with the Lord.  

But looking at it as concepts apart from any individual, and looking at the terms of the value of human life and annihilation;  then considering those terms on another level, in the context of ED vs. UR, again, strikes me as an interesting discussion piece.   Consider it my personal opinion, unless God of a surety shows you something else.  

[jabcat]

So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again.  To no one in particular;

how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it.  Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel.  Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead.  OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that?  If so, why?  Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why?  How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?

Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%?  Is He only able to save that many?  Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?

Disclosure;  I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son;  that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire];  and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].)  He alone is worthy.

Blessings, James.

[shawn]

Shawn, I understand what you're saying, and if it was meant on a personal level, believe me, I get it.  I apologize for it being linked to an individual member.  I'm sure I could have done a better job in the original post.    You and the other member may be so much more loving and valuing of human life than me personally, that it's not even close.  If so, that's a great thing in your walk with the Lord.  

But looking at it as concepts apart from any individual, and looking at the terms of the value of human life and annihilation;  then considering those terms on another level, in the context of ED vs. UR, again, strikes me as an interesting discussion piece.   Consider it my personal opinion, unless God of a surety shows you something else.  

I do get what you are saying and the point you were trying to make.  From your posts and PMs you do not seem to be a judgmental person and you seem to love Christ and your fellow man.  I don't question those things.  I do think we should be careful with our words.  It's easy for people to take our words out of context and erode a very healthy environment of learning and debate.  While I do not agree with UR...I do enjoy this community.  You guys/gals know your Bible and I can learn here.  I like the spirit of love I have sensed from many of the members including yourself.

[jabcat]

Believe me, I try to be extremely careful with my words.  That's one reason I edit my posts so much.  But we're not as yet perfect, and sometimes even with the best intentions - or even if things are worded OK - it may push a different button with someone, from their perspective, and it's off to the races.

Anyway, good, thanks.  I believe we've just resuscitated this thread.  LOL

[shawn]

So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again.  To no one in particular;

how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it.  Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel.  Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead.  OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that?  If so, why?  Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why?  How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?

Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%?  Is He only able to save that many?  Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?

Disclosure;  I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son;  that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire];  and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].)  He alone is worthy.

Blessings, James.

James, I totally 100% get the logical reasons behind the belief in UR.  It is much easier to reason my way through.  But, I think LS shows the vast body of ED supporting quotes which for me are difficult to get around.  I have to ask myself, did God only mean the true meaning of the Bible for the learned?

[Shadow]

Quite frankly, the way I feel right now, I don't mind if ED is true, it's better than ET, at least with ED, there will be peace as no one will be bickering and nitpicking all the time, and the idea of non-existence is far more appealing to me personally, than being forced to live forever anyway

TBH, I'm just not sure that there is a God that values all human life anyway (the evidence seems to indicate otherwise), sorry if this is offensive to anyone, I'm just stating how I really feel

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9:  Shawn, there's a "sticky" on here somewhere about the sovereignty of God, which was "hashed out" before the recommendation that we not discuss it. Blessings....

[legoman]

Scripting is a strong word but....

(Romans 8:20) For, unto vanity, hath creation been made subject––not by choice, but by reason of him that made it subject, in hope

This verse, and others, do indicate that Father does do certain things that makes it harder not to sin.  :2c:

WW, I think you explain this very well, especially the sheep in the huge maze example and this one:

a] Man fails -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
b] Man is imperfect -> Design flaw -> Unskilled designer.
c] Man is imperfect -> According to plan -> Design is succesful -> Perfect designer.

I pick option 'c'.

Me too!

If there were no sinners, God's plan would not be manifest, therefore us being sinners was part of His plan.  He intended us to be sinners.

[legoman]

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you.  But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God.  It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins.  When I struggle I seek relationship even more.

Hi Shawn, it is very true that we do the sinning.  We choose to sin.  God doesn't have to "force us to sin".  We do it willingly because we want to.

But have you considered that while we choose to sin, none of us chose to be sinners?  Do you see the difference?  We aren't sinners because we sin.  We sin because we are sinners.  And no one has ever chosen to be a sinner.  We are just born that way.  Why is that?  Like WW says, the deck is stacked.  We are all subjected to futility and vanity, against our will (Romans 8:20).  We have all been shut up in disobedience (Romans 11:32).  God has done this to us.  He has done it to us for a VERY GOOD REASON!

So does that mean we should just give up and continue to sin as we like?  No.  Will God force our hand?  In a sense no, but in a sense yes.  I hope this makes sense.  God is not controlling us like some robot.  However He is providing all the influence necessary so we will make or not make the choice according to His plan.

If God withholds His spirit, we will do wrong.
If God gives us His spirit, we will do right.

Therefore its up to God (read Romans 9).

Again, God is the one who subjected us to vanity and disobedience - so that He could have mercy and redeem us later and reveal His grace to us.  That is His plan.  His plan will not fail.

So should we just keep on sinning?  Read Romans 6.  What Paul is saying is once we realize what sin is, how bad it is, why would we want to keep on sinning?  You wouldn't.  If you still want to sin (and we all do sometimes), there is still work for God to do in you.  And He will finish it.  Part of that work that God is doing is us overcoming and showing fruits of the spirit.  Eventually God will work in you so you HATE sinning.  Then you won't sin anymore - ever.  Then you will be righteous.  

Its all God's plan.  Its not from us.  God is going to make us HATE sin.  I hope that made sense...

[Quaesitor]

 :goodpost:

Love it, clear and simple.

[shawn]

I can only speak for myself.  But, if I believe God makes me sin then it would be very easy for me to not own my behaviors.  That is very dangerous territory for me.  I could very easily take the stance that since God made me sin then why bother trying?  I am merely a puppet on a string and things will all work out.  Why produce fruit?  Either God will force my hand to produce fruit or he won't...if it happens it happens.  For me, this thinking could produce sloth in my spiritual life.

For those above this kind of thinking then maybe this post isn't for you.  But, everything in my spiritual walk has directed me to own my sin...my wrong actions...impure thinking and seek the face of God.  It's not to say one should beat themselves with many lashes...it's to say we should own it...repent and turn from our sins.  When I struggle I seek relationship even more.

Hi Shawn, it is very true that we do the sinning.  We choose to sin.  God doesn't have to "force us to sin".  We do it willingly because we want to.

But have you considered that while we choose to sin, none of us chose to be sinners?  Do you see the difference?  We aren't sinners because we sin.  We sin because we are sinners.  And no one has ever chosen to be a sinner.  We are just born that way.  Why is that?  Like WW says, the deck is stacked.  We are all subjected to futility and vanity, against our will (Romans 8:20).  We have all been shut up in disobedience (Romans 11:32).  God has done this to us.  He has done it to us for a VERY GOOD REASON!

So does that mean we should just give up and continue to sin as we like?  No.  Will God force our hand?  In a sense no, but in a sense yes.  I hope this makes sense.  God is not controlling us like some robot.  However He is providing all the influence necessary so we will make or not make the choice according to His plan.

If God withholds His spirit, we will do wrong.
If God gives us His spirit, we will do right.

Therefore its up to God (read Romans 9).

Again, God is the one who subjected us to vanity and disobedience - so that He could have mercy and redeem us later and reveal His grace to us.  That is His plan.  His plan will not fail.

So should we just keep on sinning?  Read Romans 6.  What Paul is saying is once we realize what sin is, how bad it is, why would we want to keep on sinning?  You wouldn't.  If you still want to sin (and we all do sometimes), there is still work for God to do in you.  And He will finish it.  Part of that work that God is doing is us overcoming and showing fruits of the spirit.  Eventually God will work in you so you HATE sinning.  Then you won't sin anymore - ever.  Then you will be righteous.  

Its all God's plan.  Its not from us.  God is going to make us HATE sin.  I hope that made sense...

Yes, that does make a great deal of sense. 

[jabcat]

So, attempting to be very clear, let me try this again.  To no one in particular;

how could we understand that God would be valuing human life if He created it to destroy most of it.  Many estimates are that only about 5-10% of humanity have heard and/or responded to the gospel.  Which would leave about 90%+ either eternally tormented, or eternally destroyed/dead.  OK, so even if it's 50% - do you believe God has a better/different plan than that?  If so, why?  Or if the above fits your theological understanding, why?  How is it explained that God values millions of humans He would either of all the ages torture, or of all the ages kill?

Did He only come for 10%? 20 or 30%?  Is He only able to save that many?  Or His love all-encompassing, and Jesus will put ALL under His feet and then hand ALL over to the Father - Who will be ALL in ALL?

Disclosure;  I believe He loves the world so much that He gave His only Son;  that some will believe in Him now and not perish [not take the broad road to destruction - but that most will walk that path and be saved as by fire];  and that He will drag all men to Himself, just as He said He would when He was lifted up [crucified].)  He alone is worthy.

Blessings, James.

James, I totally 100% get the logical reasons behind the belief in UR.  It is much easier to reason my way through.  But, I think LS shows the vast body of ED supporting quotes which for me are difficult to get around.  I have to ask myself, did God only mean the true meaning of the Bible for the learned?

I understand, and I realize these are my thoughts and may not resound with you, at least not right now.  But I'll put them out there, and maybe they'll take root somewhere along the line with you or someone else - and they may encourage and strengthen me.  "My Word will not return unto Me void".  At the very least, I'll give a few scriptures.  That can't hurt  :bigGrin:.

"vast body of ED supporting quotes" - agreed, on the surface, they appear to exist.  But IMO, they must be viewed in context of all the places where God speaks of reconciling all and saving all.  So I believe they must have a deeper meaning than surface appearance (apollumi, lost sheep, lost coin, "destroyed" prior to renewal, eternal "until", all turned away/all shown mercy, etc.).  Which brings us to;

"true meaning of the Bible only to the learned" - My belief;  the originals were pure.  Man corrupted them with biased (and ignorant) mistranlations.  YET, God preserved His Word exactly as He intended, as it ALL works a purpose for all to be turned aside and all shown mercy.  We are given an experience of evil, by God - lowered into this realm for a season and for a purpose.  Secondly, God preserved His Word with all one needs to know and understand to meet the Son for salvation.  Believe, confess, love...it's clear and plain for the simple to understand.  

At some point beyond that, yes, I believe it does get deeper and have much hidden.  "It's the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".  Who are kings?  ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".  So I believe there really are deeper things that must a) be revealed and b) taught by those who have been given revelation, as they are used to bring the others in - "We hope in the living God, Savior of all men, especially of those believing.  CHARGE THESE THINGS AND TEACH".  

So there are especially believers - kings and priests - who find (are shown) and are then required to share and teach the deeper things of God.  All part of His unveiling Plan of the Ages - ultimately summed up and reconciled by God being All in All.   My understanding.  

[Molly]

Who are kings?  ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".  

When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ.  As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church.  What an honor!



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

[valueallhumanlife2008]

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.  He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."  - 2 Peter 3:9 New International Version

I believe from this scripture it shows God's desire that none should perish.  So He values all people infinitely.  To reconcile that with eternal death, we get into the discussion of whether or not the wicked choose their fate.

[jabcat]

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness.  He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."  - 2 Peter 3:9 New International Version

I believe from this scripture it shows God's desire that none should perish.  So He values all people infinitely.  To reconcile that with eternal death, we get into the discussion of whether or not the wicked choose their fate.

IMO, valid point and well said  :bigGrin:.

It brings this to my mind;  "For God has shut them up all together in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all" (Romans 11:32).

God bless.

P.S.  As I understand re: "God's desire" - in the Greek, echomai is a "weaker" form of the word will, perhaps more akin to desire or wish; whereas, thelema is the stronger form, perhaps more akin to intent, and is used when speaking of God's will in regard to saving all.   :2c:

[micah7:9]

"Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements."(quote)

How is that possible? How can a human being, value human life yet believe in a God who will have some of His created human beings recieve eternal damnation?

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (YLT)
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. (WNT)

The teachings of eternal damnation and eternal torment are based only and solely on fear, with the absence of love and the value of human life.

[jabcat]

Hi Brother micah.  Blessings to you.

Want to make sure and clarify that Shawn, valuehumanlife, LS, and perhaps a few others believe in eternal death or annihilation, rather than eternal torment.  They've rejected that, which I personally believe is a great step.  I just personally believe there's more steps to go - for all of us.

God bless.

P.S.  ah, looking at it again, I see by ED you may have either thought they meant eternal damnation, OR, you may see eternal death still as being damnation.  If so, I could sort of see that perspective, as in, I believe Jesus brings life and liberty, not death.  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Who are kings?  ("you are priests and kings"..."the kings of the earth bring their treasures into it [the holy city]".  

When you said that, I realized that the holy city exists now, and it is the congregation of the saints in Christ.  As we bring our treasures into it, even on this board, before the saints, we are offering them within the holy city, the one true church.  What an honor!



22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

--Heb 12

Talk about deep, you got me digging now, sister.  My initial thought was along the lines of, "the kingdom is within you"?  But something didn't feel quite right about that.  So, I started digging, and realized there is a translational discussion about that, i.e., that the KJV and some others "erroneously" translated it as "within", while others maintain it's more accurately translated as "among you".  Either way, I believe you're saying this "bringing others into the kingdom" is happening now - and I agree.  I just believe it will continue and become of an even greater magnitude in the next age(s), until all those great OT verses kick in - all families blessed, His (grace/mercy/knowledge) covering the whole earth, ALL the inhabitants rejoicing/praising Him, etc.  (paraphrasing).   :thumbsup:

[Molly]

...and realized there is a translational discussion about that, i.e., that the KJV and some others "erroneously" translated it as "within", while others maintain it's more accurately translated as "among you".

I think it's both.  Because although we have to be set apart enough, holy enough, pure, clean, even virginal to participate, the Christ is a corporate body.  Jesus is the one who rides the clouds, he comes with clouds, what Paul calls 'clouds of witnesses'--the saints.   That is the kingdom.




13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

--Dan 7

[shawn]

"Shawn;
That's unfortunate. I think there of those of us who value all human life but don't believe the Bible supports UR. I personally don't believe God asks ED believers for approval of his judgements."(quote)

How is that possible? How can a human being, value human life yet believe in a God who will have some of His created human beings recieve eternal damnation?

1Co 15:22  For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. (YLT)
For just as through Adam all die, so also through Christ all will be made alive again. (WNT)

The teachings of eternal damnation and eternal torment are based only and solely on fear, with the absence of love and the value of human life.

Again...ED is eternal death not eternal hellfire damnation.  ET is eternal torture.  I don't label myself with any particular belief system because I just don't know.  But, I am 99% sure God doesn't torture his creation for eternity.  I can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.

[WhiteWings]

Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?

[Molly]

I can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.

The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being.  Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection? 

[shawn]

Shawn,
ED=Eternal death that's clear. But when? Do those people die instantly or are the punished for a while before they die?

I have no idea.  I do know that you are very well versed on the strengths and weakness of each stance.  With that said, much of this is clever debate.  I prefer looking at what the bulk of scripture says on a subject to draw conclusions.  When I try to reason these kinds of things out I get myself in trouble.  I can begin believing things that are not beneficial to me spiritually.

[shawn]

I can however reconcil a loving God with eternal death and eternal life.

The only problem is though--I'm not quite sure how you kill an immortal being.  Because doesn't this mortal have to put on immortality for resurrection? 

I thought Adam brought mortality to man through sin.  Sin brings death.  Why would you have to be immortal to be resurrected?

Is it possible to lie in sheol for thousands of years yet be instantanously judged and perish?  In our 4D world...no.  In a 10D +1 multibrane...it's speculated that this can indeed happen.  See the problem with reasoning these things out...is that we do so through really limited filters formed by our own ignorance.  We are to not lean on our own understanding and I believe this is one of the reasons why.

So, all I can do is look at what scripture says to me, and through prayer and petition ask the Holy Spirit to reveal truth to me.  What I know, is that I am to own my behaviors (even if the deck has been stacked), I also know that I need to approach life like today could be my last and live accordingly.  If your views of God's judgement benefit you spiritually then who am I to change that?  While there are things in scripture which are black and white, clear cut and undebateable there are many things that are not.  And I must believe that's exactly how God wants it to be.

[micah7:9]

Where does the concept of "eternal death" come from?