Marriage in the Resurrection/Heaven?

[Lefein]

What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal?  To know your wife, we might say.

Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply?  How can you do that if you do not have sex?  The physical act of making love, is not carnal.  The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal.  Love was meant to be the drive behind it.  Lust is a perversion of Love.

[shawn]

We will have bodies of "flesh and blood" (solidity), only they will be glorified, and spiritual, which is not to say ethereal, but of a higher nature, a righteous nature.

Christ did not come to the apostles in glory as a ghost, he came and ate many times, and was able to be touched, and to touch.  He wasn't a presence, he is a being.

Our resurrection is modeled after his, we are joint heirs in Christ, and joint heirs do not get lesser demoted versions of the reward.

The facts:

Christ was solid, but not bound.  He ate, but could walk through a locked door.

The body is righteous, and spiritual, but not that of a ghostly existence.  It is glorified.

Christ was recognisable, and kept his identity.  He remained male, and remains male to this day, in a glorified male body.  Gender, relationships, God given preferences, God given quirks and uniqueness are a prime part of our Identity, which will be glorified, not shunned.

---

We will be as children, but I suspect we will not be "naive".  Innocent, trusting, dependent, joyful, energetic, playful, youthful (strong, curious, ever learning, imaginative, void of the destructive culture of worldly adulthood; the love of money, greed, strife)

<>---<>---<>

But even in children, there is a knowing that boys and girls are to be together, despite the strange..."cooties" thing, which I never had to deal with.

I don't think the intimacy of Heaven, if the physical aspect still exists (it is not said to not exist, sola scriptura), it will not be out of longing, but of fulfilling the over-abundance of love for that "soul-mate".  

Something perhaps like; "I love you so much, I must express it, and a hug simply will not do".

I hope your right. But when Jesus was glorified, he did not have carnal desires, he may have eaten, but knowing a woman is carnally minded, which is death. Loving someone can be expressed in other ways, but loving getting to know someone is a bodily carnal activity. So there might be a higher expression of love in heaven, where we no longer need to make love, but rather we express it through kind words and a kiss so that marriage is no longer a done thing. For without the lusts of the flesh, there would be no desire for sexual activity, a bit like how an old couple are married but no longer desire sexual activity or some folks out there who have cruxified their carnal desires and no longer have need for sexual activity, such as Paul.

I did receive an interesting thought though about who we are as people, and it might shed some light on this topic here, if I decide to share it.

This is a seriously odd way to look at intimacy.  I know some individuals who were shamed into thinking of sex this way but rarely balanced and healthy people.  You believe making love to your wife is carnally minded?  Do you mean like crude desires of the flesh sort of carnal?  So God, invented this crude carnal sexual desire a man has towards his wife?  I feel for you if this is the relationship you are exposed to.  I don't know your marriage situation but making love to your wife can be one of the most intense spiritual experiences a couple can have with each other.  It is the completion of the union...one body...one flesh.  It aids to intertwine a couple spiritually as well as emotionally and physically.

[shawn]

What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal?  To know your wife, we might say.

Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply?  How can you do that if you do not have sex?  The physical act of making love, is not carnal.  The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal.  Love was meant to be the drive behind it.  Lust is a perversion of Love.

Exactly.  Men turn gifts of God into something carnal.  That doesn't make it any less a gift of God.

[thinktank]

What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal?  To know your wife, we might say.

Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply?  How can you do that if you do not have sex?  The physical act of making love, is not carnal.  The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal.  Love was meant to be the drive behind it.  Lust is a perversion of Love.

I guess it's difficult to know the difference and what exactly is it to be carnally minded. To me a healthy relationship would have lust+love= know one another. But the world tends to do away with love and focus only on the lust aspects, school education only focuses on the physcial aspect and not the love aspect etc.
So in an old couple they would no longer have any lust but their love remains, which keeps them together. So what im saying is, in heaven, there would be no lust, adrenaline, which are of the flesh etc so sexual activity would not exist, just as hunger would not exist, so what remains is the love, so the love for our wife would remain but the lust of it would no longer remain, hence Jesus saying there is no marriage in heaven.

I'm one of those who say the body is evil, but the scriptures indicate that earthly sensual activity does not exist in heaven.

[shawn]

What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal?  To know your wife, we might say.

Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply?  How can you do that if you do not have sex?  The physical act of making love, is not carnal.  The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal.  Love was meant to be the drive behind it.  Lust is a perversion of Love.

I guess it's difficult to know the difference and what exactly is it to be carnally minded. To me a healthy relationship would have lust+love= know one another. But the world tends to do away with love and focus only on the lust aspects, school education only focuses on the physcial aspect and not the love aspect etc.
So in an old couple they would no longer have any lust but their love remains, which keeps them together. So what im saying is, in heaven, there would be no lust, adrenaline, which are of the flesh etc so sexual activity would not exist, just as hunger would not exist, so what remains is the love, so the love for our wife would remain but the lust of it would no longer remain, hence Jesus saying there is no marriage in heaven.

I'm one of those who say the body is evil, but the scriptures indicate that earthly sensual activity does not exist in heaven.

Can you name these scriptures?

[thinktank]

1 john 2 , 16

For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.


2 peter 1:4


1 Peter 4 :2

that he no longer lives to the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.


1 peter 1:24 for all flesh is as grass, snd all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass whithereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.

I did find this though
hebrews 13, 4 marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers god will judge.

[thinktank]

I'm glad to report that I think I have been wrong on this issue. For adam and Eve were created in perfection and they had the ability to know each other. So if lust is not of the father and is the only way for a man to connect with a woman, then it means Adam would not be able to have kids, for he would not have any interest.

So the lust of the flesh and the pride of life must be something else, different than appreciation of beauty and making love, but some kind of carnal fleshy type perversion. :2c:

[jabcat]

Yeah, I certainly believe it's a blessed thing within marriage.  I'm just not sure it's part of post-resurrection.  Really, I don't believe it is, but I could be wrong.  "...neither marrying nor giving in marriage".  

If it's not, God's got something even better.

[jabcat]

Found this interesting answer to the question at gotquestions.org

"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (verse 30). Jesus teaches here that marriage is a relationship to be enjoyed in this life, but it will not carry forward into the next life.

The appetites and desires of this world will give way to higher and infinitely more gratifying delights in the world to come.

For centuries, the temple and its sacrifices were at the heart of worship, but once Christ came and offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice, the temple system and its sacrifices were no longer needed (John 4:22-23). They were "copies of the heavenly things," and the earthly temple was only "a copy of the true one" in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24). In the same way, the marriage relationship is a picture of our relationship with Christ (Ephesians 5:31-32). Once we are present with Christ, the illustration will no longer be needed. We will have the reality, which is far better than any earthly representation. This is why Jesus is called the Bridegroom, the Church is called His Bride, and our celebration in heaven is called the Wedding (John 3:29; Matthew 22:1-14; Revelation 19:7-9).

[shawn]

I'm glad to report that I think I have been wrong on this issue. For adam and Eve were created in perfection and they had the ability to know each other. So if lust is not of the father and is the only way for a man to connect with a woman, then it means Adam would not be able to have kids, for he would not have any interest.

So the lust of the flesh and the pride of life must be something else, different than appreciation of beauty and making love, but some kind of carnal fleshy type perversion. :2c:

You got it.  It's like the difference between enjoying a good meal and gluttony.  One is of God and the other is not.  There is nothing lustful about making love to your wife.  It is a beautiful act given to husband and wife by God.  It is not to be compared to bedding a stranger or even some acts that a husband and wife may perform with each other.  I won't be graphic but there are even some acts between a husband and wife that are not about love making and all about the high of lust and fantasy.

[Lefein]

I'll be honest.  Concerning the whole "Once we are present with Christ, the illustration will no longer be needed." issue.

I am (still) not comfortable with the idea of being fulfilled romantically by Jesus, as many want to imply when they put up those verses as their defacto answer.

I have yet to receive a worthwhile apology on the subject (especially dealing with that particular issue) either, unfortunately, and much to my displeasure.

But the floor is open for anyone willing to give the challenge a shot.  Holy Spirit wisdom would be keenest, of course.

[jabcat]

I understand.  I'm also a red-blooded American male.

Thinking here - maybe we won't need "romantic fulfillment" as we currently envision it in these bodies of mortal flesh.  Maybe there's something higher and better that we are unable to currently understand, and some of our needs and drives we have now will no longer be an issue.

I think of the scripture about God's thoughts and ways being higher than ours...maybe we don't currently have the capacity to understand fully what He has in store for us.

Which brings to mind another scripture, that the things we go through here are not worthy to be compared to the glory He has in store for us...

Maybe we often look at things from the basis of clay/earth, not really able to see the heavenlies.  Sometimes for me, trust just has to come into play.   :2c:

[Lefein]

That only leads to the other portion of that.  (and I apologise for stubbornness, but..)

Heaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan.  It is like churches who say dancing is a sin...best way to put it for comparison I suppose.

[jabcat]

I'll think about your most recent response...was working on this followup to my last post  :bigGrin:

maybe we won't need "romantic fulfillment"

Did Jesus?  Even though He was flesh, walked amongst us, and was tempted and suffered as we, still, was He on another plane somehow?  And that was in His earthly body.  I would think when we're more like Him, and especially in our glorified bodies, well, I expect some things to be very different - better.   :bigGrin:  

[jabcat]

That only leads to the other portion of that.  (and I apologise for stubbornness, but..)

Heaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan.  It is like churches who say dancing is a sin...best way to put it for comparison I suppose.

But wouldn't that be like saying God is boring and He has no plan or capacity to have things wonderful for us?  However He chooses to do it?

[jabcat]

I'll look for more scriptures and explanation...

[Lefein]

But Jesus is God.  That'd be like, being romantic with your child from his point of view...

It seems completely fathomless and...to be honest unintelligent (not that you are unintelligent, merely the idea is utterly anathema to me), that somehow life will be better without romance.  Anger, Hate, and Jealousy sure, but romance?  What is so much better about family love, that it must remain while romance which is so bonding must be abolished for the sake of literally only God knows what, which from the thoughts of others, is comfortless jibberish on Christ being our Husband, and how every one is brother and sister in Heaven?  (Again, this is not directed at you, my anger is at the half-hearted answers of stumbling Christendom)

Not to be brash or sound so crass about it...merely that I am a lover, and romantic at heart, and being, and always have been.  To be stripped of it is to be stripped of my identity, and be replaced with a (to my view) revolting mockery, albeit glorified, of merest, and forced satisfaction through "siblinghood".  Revolting, as I do not want to be demoted to homogenous mono-agape, with familiar ties that I do not hold very high.  I'd rather have a wife, over a mother - I'd rather have a wife over siblings.  

But to be clear, I do believe my repulsion is because of the inability of the church to give an answer, that does not sound like mythical pie in the sky, when I am hungry here on earth.  And God unfortunately, has not come down wrapped in cherubim to tell me either...a thing that has been straining me, and angering me a bit lately...

As for God being "boring", I do not wish to offend his Highest Majesty by saying anything close...only that Heaven doesn't look like much to look forward to the way mainstream Christianity these days likes to present it...

"Golf courses everywhere!  And everyone is so good and loving...just no romance."

"YOU'LL SERVE GOD AND YOU'LL LIKE IT!  YE AIN'T GOIN FER FUN, YER GOIN TO SERVE GOD IN A CHURCH SERVICE FOREVER!!!!!!  IFIN YE DON'T WANT IT, GO TO HELL!  AIN'T NO ROOM FOR THE HAPPY THINGS YE HAVE ON EARTH! IT'LL ALL GET REPLACED BY ETHEREAL FRUITINESS LIKE ANGELS!!"  (in essence, no such thing as cake in Heaven, you'll have to be perfectly happy doing something like praying in thees and thous forever, because you aren't allowed to have cake and Jesus too, you can only have Jesus, anything else but Jesus is being earthly, and dang it all if you aren't a sinner, or else you're "immature, or carnal" because you'd like to have cake in heaven too)  [as you can tell, I really, really, really hate it when people preach this kind of Heaven, even indirectly]

Seems to be the two extremes I've seen when the answers are presented...not that I've ever been told the last one up front, but...it is really what it boils down to.

But scriptures that provide solid comfort, will indeed be helpful, and I bless, and thank you for your patience.  Even with my probably...unhappy, disposition about it.  Please bear with me, for it is a very, very tough issue.  Especially when romance (of a beautiful sort) is my identity, but already it is met with scorn on the earth.

[jabcat]

There's so much I understand and relate to in your post.  Golf courses everywhere, I definitely could go for. LOL

I won't attempt to answer all in detail, but something that jumped out is, maybe that's part of the issue, is "what the churches have to say about it"?  In my humble(d) opinion, some things they get right, some things woefully wrong.  However, sometimes I just want to hear what I want to hear, also.   :pitiful:

Again, while you were working on your response, I was working on another.  I'll go ahead and post it, even though at least parts of it may lean towards your "what the church says" direction.  However, I found it interesting, part of it humurous, and at least part of it perhaps helpful.  We'll see.  And we can keep digging if need be.  I do think he's got a little different spin on it.


This from Grantley Morris;

 "If owning a brand new Ferrari causes a toy peddle car to lose some of its appeal, heavenly pleasures outclass the best that earthly romance offers. What we now think is the ultimate in red-blooded passion, thrilling adventure and heart-thumping excitement will be seen as boring child-play, once we taste the wonders of heaven.

Do you think the Creator of sex has reached his limit in his ability to give us pleasure and fulfillment? Do you suppose that in the infinity of the Almighty's loving wisdom he has reserved for our heavenly reward that which is second rate relative to what he has already given fallen humanity? There is a spiritual ecstasy of which the highest sexual experience, the greatest romance, the most exciting adventure is but the faintest shadow. There are exquisite sensations and rapturous delights that so exhilarate, intoxicate and transport every fiber of one's being that our present bodies and emotions would explode if subjected them. Pinnacles of pleasure beyond our dreams all revolve around loving and adoring Almighty God. Every Christian is destined for them. All we need do is remain faithful in this life, allowing ourselves to be captivated by the beauty of Jesus.

For anyone to lament there being no sex in heaven is like lamenting that there will be no Barbie Dolls. Everything wonderful that anyone has ever experienced on earth will be raised so many levels that so-call adult pleasures will pale in the same way as we currently look back on what seemed the most important thing on earth when we were four years old. If we keep our eyes on Jesus, mind-boggling things are ahead!"
--------------------

I love golf.  Sometimes I'm convicted that I need to be sure I'm loving Jesus first.  That He is in first place.  To that regard, Mr. Morris says this;

 "to be captivated by the beauty of Jesus."  I'm reminded of the scripture (and I fail miserably) where Jesus said our love for Him should be so strong and primary that all else [IN COMPARISON] fades.  I like the contextual comparison/contrast of this translation;    "If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison--your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.  Luke 14:26  New Living Translation

Anything there helpful?  Or are we still grumpy?   :laughing7:

[Lefein]

Helpful, less grumpy...But I still find myself held aback by the...Jesus = our provider of heavenly orgasm....I need not go further.

I do not know how any pastor on this earth has managed to shatter than revulsion!  And I am not even sure if it is sin, perversion, or just plain rebellion and hindrance towards my walk with God to have such an area, where I can actually be repulsed by fellowship with him.

It just makes my mind curdle for some reason...the reason probably obvious. >~<

I understand Jesus being first, but...Not to such an end that he becomes my lover? Surely? >~<

Note, I do not equate romance, and love between a husband and wife as sexuality, but in the sense that it is fundamentally wrong to be both Father, and Lover to your adopted son, or daughter, especially when your son, and daughter adopted are husband and wife....or 'where'...>_>

I really, really do apologise again though for being difficult.  But eventually, and surely there will be atleast some sort of thing to appear that rings with my spirit and doesn't bring out revulsion in it.

Though, I do understand the part about "upgrades" from earth to Heaven...But some upgrades just sound outright gross, or base to be honest.  I would be sickened (and am) at the thought that my Father in Heaven is presented as being more or less, a sovereign harem lord, that man was made to fill it.

[reFORMer]

We have neglected what is more out of reach to Adamic creatures: the Transcendence of our personal God.  It seems that whatever we are now is in seed form of what will be.  Discussing relevance of things of this eon compared to the resurrection body Paul says that, "Foods for the bowels and the bowels for foods, yet God will be discarding these as well as those." (1 Cor 6¹³; Conc. Lit.)  Yet, Jesus ate after being resurrected immortal.  When "this body of our humiliation metamorphoses into a body like unto His body of glory" there are other functions and forms we will be enabled to assume.  The glorified form of of our embodiment, similar to  what the body of the acorn is to the body of the oak tree, only more so by many orders of magnitude, has not been abundantly clear to most people.  Scripture says, "Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is." (1 Jn 3²; CLT)

It seems to me that whatever orgasmic union is to the body of our humiliation, when elevated into a body of "glory," and a glory of the Divine substance even, it would be so much more of an experience, quantitatively and quantitatively, that it is beyond our present comprehension, though there are some inklings by the spirit.  Certainly committed associations will have more than billions of years to continue and also assume new configurations.

I have been overcome by the Holy Spirit in various ways, whether so overcome I collapsed, was brought into higher realms, separated from my body, experiencing Him like electric rain to the verge of it being unbearable, and so on...these all testify of something greater to come when our bodies, instead of Adam, are born of God.  What we have now is but the earnest of our inheritance.  But that portion is the graces, services, operations, manifestations (cp., 1 Co 12^4-7) of a promissory Spirit giving a foretaste of what will be in immortality.  In this age, things more intricate are more fragile.  The most delicate self is only possible for a permanent being. So, the intimacies of immortals we are right to assume to be of greater and more durable ecstasy.

[shawn]

But Jesus is God.  That'd be like, being romantic with your child from his point of view...

It seems completely fathomless and...to be honest unintelligent (not that you are unintelligent, merely the idea is utterly anathema to me), that somehow life will be better without romance.  Anger, Hate, and Jealousy sure, but romance?  What is so much better about family love, that it must remain while romance which is so bonding must be abolished for the sake of literally only God knows what, which from the thoughts of others, is comfortless jibberish on Christ being our Husband, and how every one is brother and sister in Heaven?  (Again, this is not directed at you, my anger is at the half-hearted answers of stumbling Christendom)

Not to be brash or sound so crass about it...merely that I am a lover, and romantic at heart, and being, and always have been.  To be stripped of it is to be stripped of my identity, and be replaced with a (to my view) revolting mockery, albeit glorified, of merest, and forced satisfaction through "siblinghood".  Revolting, as I do not want to be demoted to homogenous mono-agape, with familiar ties that I do not hold very high.  I'd rather have a wife, over a mother - I'd rather have a wife over siblings.  

But to be clear, I do believe my repulsion is because of the inability of the church to give an answer, that does not sound like mythical pie in the sky, when I am hungry here on earth.  And God unfortunately, has not come down wrapped in cherubim to tell me either...a thing that has been straining me, and angering me a bit lately...

As for God being "boring", I do not wish to offend his Highest Majesty by saying anything close...only that Heaven doesn't look like much to look forward to the way mainstream Christianity these days likes to present it...

"Golf courses everywhere!  And everyone is so good and loving...just no romance."

"YOU'LL SERVE GOD AND YOU'LL LIKE IT!  YE AIN'T GOIN FER FUN, YER GOIN TO SERVE GOD IN A CHURCH SERVICE FOREVER!!!!!!  IFIN YE DON'T WANT IT, GO TO HELL!  AIN'T NO ROOM FOR THE HAPPY THINGS YE HAVE ON EARTH! IT'LL ALL GET REPLACED BY ETHEREAL FRUITINESS LIKE ANGELS!!"  (in essence, no such thing as cake in Heaven, you'll have to be perfectly happy doing something like praying in thees and thous forever, because you aren't allowed to have cake and Jesus too, you can only have Jesus, anything else but Jesus is being earthly, and dang it all if you aren't a sinner, or else you're "immature, or carnal" because you'd like to have cake in heaven too)  [as you can tell, I really, really, really hate it when people preach this kind of Heaven, even indirectly]

Seems to be the two extremes I've seen when the answers are presented...not that I've ever been told the last one up front, but...it is really what it boils down to.

But scriptures that provide solid comfort, will indeed be helpful, and I bless, and thank you for your patience.  Even with my probably...unhappy, disposition about it.  Please bear with me, for it is a very, very tough issue.  Especially when romance (of a beautiful sort) is my identity, but already it is met with scorn on the earth.

I'm not sure why this post made me smile and then chuckle.  I guess I just like the fact you just get to the nitty gritty of your thinking on this topic.  I enjoy conversing with those who just lay it out there for discussion.  That is a trait I respect.

With that said, I'm not sure who you are angry with.  Is it the church?  I mean you got to cut em a break.  The Bible is silent on these matters.  Their opinions are just that opinions and I wouldn't take it as more significant than that.  It's my opinion the church should be silent on these matters.  We have no way of knowing one way or the other.  And maturation with this subject will come for you when you release it and just trust God in these matters.  There are many topics the Bible is silent on and it's easy to let our minds run wild.  It's easy to allow these topics to distract us, then hurt our walk.  Just my 2 cents. 

[Molly]

Heaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan.

Hey!  I resemble that remark!   :happygrin:



Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.

We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labour, and my leisure too,
For his civility.

We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.

We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible,
The cornice but a mound.

Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.

--Emily Dickenson

[Lefein]

Shawn: Your post makes a great deal of sense.  And in a similar way that I got down to the nitty-gritty, I think you answered with nitty-gritty too.  "Who am I truly angry with?  And why?  How does his harm my walk?"  You've given me a much better answer I think, than much of the pastorate.  An honest one, at the least, the right one, at best.

hmmn...God has been dealing with me lately I think, about some major trust issues, perhaps this is a part of it.

Molly: That poem sounds familiar somehow...lol

[Molly]

Lefein,

I just want to say --that whatever we are, he made us that way, and I believe he will help us to realize all the dreams we have and make us the perfected completion of ourselves.

And, don't knock Puritans!  :icon_king:


Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.

[jabcat]

Molly, I'm cool with you claiming it.  But would a totally dyed in the wool puritan use that little icon of the smilie with the little crooked crown?  You're gonna have to settle down.   :laughhand: