In my time of study before I was even introduced to Universal Reconciliation, there was an issue that plagued me very much. The verse that speaks of no marriage in the resurrection, and the myriad of Christians who would give the most half-patronising answers, and many of these answers made me want to strangle them for reasons that I don't really know why...
Matt 22:30
Answers like:
"You'll have far too many wonderful things to do up there to worry about marriage, or being married", "You won't even notice, or care", "Marriage is an earthly relationship whose purpose was for procreation, you won't need it, you won't want it, you'll be perfectly happy and fulfilled without it", "You'll be perfectly happy even though your wife has been turned solely into your sister in Christ", "she won't be your wife, she'll be your sister in Christ", etc, etc.
Such answers you can find all over the internet, and quite frankly they are very repugnant answers. I am not yet married, but I know the marriage relationship is the single most important, binding, and highest form of relationship that can be shared between two human beings. The abolishment of it to be (and not to sound blasphemous by saying it) Fulfilled by being married to Jesus, while your dearest wife becomes your literally over-glorified sister, or coworker who will love you the same way everyone loves each other in heaven, unilaterally, all full of cutesy Utopian equality, where you are loved the same way a complete stranger down the street half a nation away is...(IE: loss of unique relationship)...horrible.
Not that I do not love Jesus, I am certainly a child of God, if I didn't love him I wouldn't be here making this post. But all of those patronising answers, even, and I dare say especially the "Jesus is the only love you'll want!" answers, feel wrong...and turn my insides into a tight sort of rage that feels like I want to smite the answerer...
On a side note; "Jesus will be your husband", "You'll be married to Jesus!" is especially disturbing due to me being Male.
Basically...In light of discovering Universal Reconciliation, and its applications to Scripture in general, as well as the glorified Life...I've wondered what other answers "Tradition" has flung into Christian thought to "take care of" (albeit hideously!) these tough scriptures.
Any thoughts...or anything at all that might be helpful?
Really, these two concepts were the most troubling things I've experienced in my Christian walk. And if I can be honest, even the doctrine of Eternal Damnation didn't make me feel as angry as the idea that my future wife and I will be (albeit glorified) a literally over-glorified "Just friends"...
QuoteReally, these two concepts were the most troubling things I've experienced in my Christian walk. And if I can be honest, even the doctrine of Eternal Damnation didn't make me feel as angry as the idea that my future wife and I will be (albeit glorified) a literally over-glorified "Just friends"...
These last lines made me LOL, "over-glorified Just friends" = Epic
There are some who believe that the "like angels" stuff is about the next eon and not eternity, that when God is all in all, we'll return to the Edenic life and have intimacy again. Granted that is pure speculation.
It's funny that you said that and are not married yet, as couples mature, they develop an intimacy which goes further than physical contact, so I guess that thousands of years together would bind a couple with an extemely strong bond.
Honestly, I sure hope I can continue to live a special relationship with my parents, wife, children and friends and not just a generic agape love for every creatures.
God loves the whole world with the same perfect love and yet loves everyone of us in a unique way.
My :2c:
What if a man or woman was married more than once?
Who should that person be married to in heaven?
Marriage serves a few earthly purposes that will no longer be needed in heaven. One having children. Two is spiritual, emotional and physical comfort. I do not believe new beings will be birthed in heaven...suppose I could be wrong. And, we will be complete in Christ in the presence of God and will be without spiritual, emotional or physical discomfort. I also see us having a perfect love for one another and every relationship we have in heaven would be even more fulfilling than an earthly marriage.
I do know if there is any sort of bond with one individual I want that person to be my wife. She is my best friend and I must admit it distresses me a bit to think about not being married to her in heaven. And, if I'm being honest I wonder if I will be able to still make love with her in heaven. What I do know is that anything that distresses me about it...will be relieved.
Quote from: Quaesitor on August 19, 2010, 07:15:17 AM
QuoteReally, these two concepts were the most troubling things I've experienced in my Christian walk. And if I can be honest, even the doctrine of Eternal Damnation didn't make me feel as angry as the idea that my future wife and I will be (albeit glorified) a literally over-glorified "Just friends"...
These last lines made me LOL, "over-glorified Just friends" = Epic
There are some who believe that the "like angels" stuff is about the next eon and not eternity, that when God is all in all, we'll return to the Edenic life and have intimacy again. Granted that is pure speculation.
It's funny that you said that and are not married yet, as couples mature, they develop an intimacy which goes further than physical contact, so I guess that thousands of years together would bind a couple with an extemely strong bond.
Honestly, I sure hope I can continue to live a special relationship with my parents, wife, children and friends and not just a generic agape love for every creatures.
God loves the whole world with the same perfect love and yet loves everyone of us in a unique way.
My :2c:
Nothing generic about agape. And I think if any of us were to truly experience it...we wouldn't have these questions.
Quote from: shawn on August 19, 2010, 09:12:52 AM
Marriage serves a few earthly purposes that will no longer be needed in heaven. One having children. Two is spiritual, emotional and physical comfort. I do not believe new beings will be birthed in heaven...suppose I could be wrong. And, we will be complete in Christ in the presence of God and will be without spiritual, emotional or physical discomfort. I also see us having a perfect love for one another and every relationship we have in heaven would be even more fulfilling than an earthly marriage.
I do know if there is any sort of bond with one individual I want that person to be my wife. She is my best friend and I must admit it distresses me a bit to think about not being married to her in heaven. And, if I'm being honest I wonder if I will be able to still make love with her in heaven. What I do know is that anything that distresses me about it...will be relieved.
:goodpost:
sorry mate as soon as both of you enter heaven, you'll both have to sign divorce papers to enter Zion :laughing7:
so marriage is a waste of time really :laughing7:
Hi,
A marrage license is just a piece of paper which you won't need. Not that you won't have a relationship, it just won't be until "death do you part". There won't be any need for a marriage then, we won't need any legal papers to keep us together or separate us. A woman won't need to take the surname of her husband. A woman won't be considered inferior to a man.
In each marriage that the Bible sanctions there is a social curse put on each woman (Gen. 3:16) "In sorrow shall thou bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee".
This is still in operation today. There were Biblical rules in marriages, this will not be so in the resurrection. Praise the Lord!!!
Relationships will be much better than marriages today.
CHB
The root of my fear, is that in the heavenly state of things, she will cease to be the most important created individual to me, or to put it another way; The first priority, amongst the second things - the first things being God...
Likewise...I don't want to be "equal" to everyone else, or everyone else to be "equal" to me in her eyes, nor do I want her to be "equal" to everyone else, and vice versa. To be honest, I'd rather have few friends, and a thoroughly significant dearest one in Heaven, than every friend, and just friends homogeneously. I always have such rage at the idea that a whole world of fair weather friends, could some how replace her fiercely guarded spot in my heart, stepping down from her place to become one of a grey mass of some "eternal church congregation". I do not doubt, that relationships will be strong in Heaven, but it is the "type" of relationship that is my true concern.
I want her to be the crown jewel of my heavenly fellowships (aside from God, but that is a given anyway), not just another coin in the toss. What use is a mansion, and being a priestly crowned king if there is no queen with you, to enjoy the spleandour with you? Just a pretty house, and a pretty bit of jewelry on top of a prettified head...But a house is not always a home.
I had imagined how wonderful it would be that she would know that of the countless myriads of people, she is forever more the highest held loved one amongst them, doubtless, and infinitely in love with me, as I am with her...and not in some "sloppy agape" kind of love either, this..."Praise Jesus I love you with the love of the lord my brother, now to go off and play for ten thousand years with these three hundred angels, and all of my new best friends while you stay here and wait for me til I have time for you", but a manifestation of glorious mutual adoration in the sight of God like it should have been from the beginning of Man's existence, woven and one, inseparable by neither angel, nor any glorified man.
On the other side of things, there is a great deal of void in the inner being that friends, and relatives can never fill, neither is it their place. There is a vast amount of difference in being told "You are handsome" by your dearest, and being told the same by your mother, or a compatriot.
And there are things I do not think I would offer God; I doubt I'd ever kiss Jesus on the lips with passion behind it, or run my fingers through his hair...for obvious reasons. Even in the innocence of Glorydom.
I may have revealed a bit more about my struggling inner being than I should have, but it is honesty, and honesty hoping for worthwhile comfort, and something solid to lay itself to rest.
Even Adam surrounded by God, and animal companions was alone...and it wasn't good at all. Deathless infinity is an awfully long time to be lonely.
While I understand your concerns I believe them to be unwarranted. First, we don't know how relationships will work in heaven we just know there won't be marriage. It might be exactly how you desire it to be. I think most of us want to be special in the eyes of one person. I know I do. I want to have intimacy on a different level with one person even in heaven. That is how I am built. I was one of those odd little boys who dreamt about his future wife from a very young age. I adore her and know she was God's gift to me. So, I do understand but I also know whatever relationships are in heaven they will be more glorious than anything we have experienced on earth. And that thought brings me peace in the unknown.
I was just lying in bed with my wife discussing this issue. I was moved by your distress because I too have had these feelings. I have come to peace with it knowing whatever it is it will be perfect. But, while I was joking with my wife that she will probably dump me for Paul as soon as we hit the gates :grin: something occured to me. I don't believe loving agape means you don't have special relationships...ones more important to you. Even Jesus had his inner circle...Peter, James and John. John refers to himself as the disciple whom Jesus loved. I always took that as Jesus and John had a special relationship maybe closer than he had to the others. I believe it's entirely possible to have close relationships with a tight inner circle and still love the rest in heaven agape. God built us to want that and I think there is a reasonable liklihood that will continue in heaven.
Another thought...we know we can store up treasures in heaven for ourselves. I wonder if by loving your wife like Christ loves the church if one of your rewards will be to continue your special relationship with your wife in heaven. And, as my wife already knows I sure hope there is some physical aspects to that as well. :happygrin:
Anyways, I just wanted to let you know what occured to me and I hope it helps you.
Now, there is some solid comfort!
I believe it is time for me to study more deeply the last, great fear of Heaven with this in mind.
Thank you very much friend, and God bless you and your wife.
No problem Lefein. Your posts have been quite inspirational for me. I am glad I could return the favor. :thumbsup:
The way I try to see it, our whole way of loving someone in Heaven will be very pure and innocent. I don't know ... we will either love like Methusalems, with a maturity that in this life on Earth is out of our grasp, or we will be more like children. Sometimes in my life that seemed bad for me, because intimacy is a huge blessing in my book, and sometimes when I was a lonely single and worn down by sexual longings that I could not fulfill ... then this idea of spending eternity more like a child really appealed to me.
What I know for sure is that this will not be simply a commandment. God will not simply say you cannot have sex or other kinds of intimacy anymore. Instead it will be coming naturally to us.
Maybe there will be stuff like in the movie Avatar, if you've seen that one, another kind of intimacy.
I have been with God sometimes and His love isn't smaller than marriage love, and neither is it less romantic. So I could imagine if I could come to love others with God's kind of love, I would not feel unfulfilled even when marriage isn't there anymore. Jesus once said that those who do the will of God are His mother, father, sister, brother, etc ... teaching a lesson to his family that was knocking. For me that means that in a christian relationship, the love must flow over to the outside. Family values are very ok, but I do think it's not the most important thing for Jesus. And I actually find that liberating rather than burdening. Especially women often have this atttitude of wanting to do everything for their family and completely leaving other people be and considering them as an intrusion even. That is wrong. If that is carried too far family and marriage only imprison us.
For me the essence of companionship that I see in marriage is the ... companionship which is cradled in faithfulness and love. Doing things as a unit. Doing things together. In Heaven this bond is given to everyone with everyone. I will not have sex with everyone or something like this, but if I ever feel sadness I can go to anyone I see and in Christ I will know them, and they will know me. But of course there will be special love. The best of marriage love will remain, only the sex stuff will be transformed into something else, I guess.
I have always wondered why many Christians don't believe there will be physical intimacy in heaven. I have to assume it's because of the stigma placed upon one of the most wonderful gifts God has given to a husband and wife. The Bible is silent on this matter. And while it may or may not be transformed, altered or gone all together I'm not sure any person can say so with authority.
I would say it is the stigma. "Sex is dirty" is a tradition of men in its own right, one that has been ingrained into every mind all over the western world. Sex outside of marriage is dirty, but tradition, culture, etc - only ever looks at extremes; whoredom, vs. celibacy.
That and, due to the (le'gasp) dark ages church traditions, sex was only, and purely for procreation. To be pleasured was to be gross, to be intimate in any form other than missionary was a mortal sin, among other things...Essentially, these doctrines have not fully gone away from the western mind, even with the sexual revolution's extremist backlash against it. In fact, I believe it has turtled Christian intimacy even further into the cold corner.
A boyfriend, or girlfriend, or even sometimes an engaged couple get very dirty looks from the congregation if they are found out to be discussing the topic of sex. And it is not discussed in youth groups, (from what I've seen) only mentioned in passing as "various temptations you'll experience in high school".
Really, even aside from the whole marriage in Heaven issue; Earthly intimacy is something that needs to be discussed, and taught in the teen years when these questions are being raised, and answers are being begged for. Not everyone is comfortable opening up to the pastor alone, if the subject is considered taboo in the youth room, or the pulpit-pew.
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 06:16:18 PM
I would say it is the stigma. "Sex is dirty" is a tradition of men in its own right, one that has been ingrained into every mind all over the western world. Sex outside of marriage is dirty, but tradition, culture, etc - only ever looks at extremes; whoredom, vs. celibacy.
I think it's distinctly possible that God will bring physical intimacy into it's perfect fullness. I think some assume since there is no marriage (at least in the lawful earthly sense) that there will be no physical intimacy. Why would not God reclaim/restore a beautiful act/gift distorted by Satan? I see no Biblical reason for God not to bring physical intimacy into perfection.
I believe it is quite possible that physical intimacy could continue...But I am not sure on the details (different details >////>)
I do have a bit of a problem with the intimacy idea though, atleast on the physical side of things. Not with the idea itself, but with the way that some have taken it...
I actually read one....well, I'd call it blasphemy and heresy (it made me very angry anyway)...But it was a page talking about all of this, marriage not being in heaven, but replaced, etc. It all sounded good...up until it got weird, and basically turned all of Heaven into one vast Olympian orgy.
It talked about how in Heaven all of:
"Man's private little selfish marriages and his system of marriage shall be abolished and we'll be free to enjoy each other and have sex with each other all together, all of us, with anyone we desire who is willing!"
I'll say this much, if this is the case...I'll kill the superficial, hypnotised spell of joy I was put under (for if such a thing could truly occur in Heavenly realms, a cursed spell it must be!), and not stand by idle for any over glorified Heathen made Saint who thinks to lay with my eternal dearest. I'll fling him out of Heaven myself if I have to...
>_> but that could just be my over-protective, Templarian side that no one relates to. But Heaven or not, cheating is cheating. And I'll not be cheated on. >:(
As a note of history, this site's view was particularly one of the reasons I grew so very hostile towards the idea of "all encompassing no one is special agape". ...Odd though, I get rambly, and a bit emotionally charged when this subject comes up, but I can be more academic with just about anything else lol ^^;
I found the site, if anyone wants to see it for reference to things to answer for...I can post it here if I have permission, perhaps a mod could review it. But I don't want to post anything that might harm less mature minds (like searching guests who might not know fully the truth of things).
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 06:57:04 PM
I believe it is quite possible that physical intimacy could continue...But I am not sure on the details (different details >////>)
I do have a bit of a problem with the intimacy idea though, atleast on the physical side of things. Not with the idea itself, but with the way that some have taken it...
I actually read one....well, I'd call it blasphemy and heresy (it made me very angry anyway)...But it was a page talking about all of this, marriage not being in heaven, but replaced, etc. It all sounded good...up until it got weird, and basically turned all of Heaven into one vast Olympian orgy.
It talked about how in Heaven all of:
"Man's private little selfish marriages and his system of marriage shall be abolished and we'll be free to enjoy each other and have sex with each other all together, all of us, with anyone we desire who is willing!"
I'll say this much, if this is the case...I'll kill the superficial, hypnotised spell of joy I was put under (for if such a thing could truly occur in Heavenly realms, a cursed spell it must be!), and not stand by idle for any over glorified Heathen made Saint who thinks to lay with my eternal dearest. I'll fling him out of Heaven myself if I have to...
>_> but that could just be my over-protective, Templarian side that no one relates to. But Heaven or not, cheating is cheating. And I'll not be cheated on. >:(
I found the site, if anyone wants to see it for reference to things to answer for...I can post it here if I have permission, perhaps a mod could review it. But I don't want to post anything that might harm less mature minds (like searching guests who might not know fully the truth of things).
That made me chuckle a bit. Kickin' some butt in the heavenly realms. :laughing7: I can't imagine Heaven being one big orgy. Physical intimacy was created for one man and one woman who have a lifetime commitment to each other. To extrapolate that into something even many nonbelievers to be vile is short sighted at best. I think it's very possible that there will be one person who is most special to you in heaven and that you may share physical intimacy. I believe we will have an inner circle just like Jesus had. I do not see heaven as some polar opposite of life on earth. I see heaven as perfection of what God created on earth in many aspects.
Exactly! *highfive*
...I actually once told myself, and it was maybe a little bit of childish rebellion >_> But one day in prayer I sort of whispered in my heart:
"She might not be my wife in Heaven, but it doesn't say a thing about not having an eternal girlfriend!"
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 07:10:02 PM
Exactly! *highfive*
...I actually once told myself, and it was maybe a little bit of childish rebellion >_> But one day in prayer I sort of whispered in my heart:
"She might not be my wife in Heaven, but it doesn't say a thing about not having an eternal girlfriend!"
:grin:
Who hasn't had moments like that one? I don't believe for one second that God ignores the desires of your heart or forgets your love and commitment to your wife. It feels right in my spirit to believe that God will protect those relationships we brought under his headship. I believe those relationships we cultivate and grow in God he will perfect in heaven.
Great topic btw. I love discussing subjects like these.
As do I friend, it gives relief, and release from heavy burdens. Fellowship as it should be, if I can be so bold to say so myself :)
I was hoping there'd be some kind of relationship in heaven, but I can't see it. No flesh and blood body = no sexual longings + Lord in heaven = no more intimacy longings + no marriage in heaven = void + be as a child in heaven = no more adult type relationships.
So I cannot see how there are relationships in heaven, for they asked Jesus who's wife will they be for this man who had many wifes. Jesus didn't say he can pick and choose but said there will no longer be any marriage.
So it looks like were all going to be muted in heaven and be like the apostle Paul, who said "Id rather you be as me"
I still think though we can interact with people and enjoy their company, so the relationship still continues.
We will have bodies of "flesh and blood" (solidity), only they will be glorified, and spiritual, which is not to say ethereal, but of a higher nature, a righteous nature.
Christ did not come to the apostles in glory as a ghost, he came and ate many times, and was able to be touched, and to touch. He wasn't a presence, he is a being.
Our resurrection is modeled after his, we are joint heirs in Christ, and joint heirs do not get lesser demoted versions of the reward.
The facts:
Christ was solid, but not bound. He ate, but could walk through a locked door.
The body is righteous, and spiritual, but not that of a ghostly existence. It is glorified.
Christ was recognisable, and kept his identity. He remained male, and remains male to this day, in a glorified male body. Gender, relationships, God given preferences, God given quirks and uniqueness are a prime part of our Identity, which will be glorified, not shunned.
---
We will be as children, but I suspect we will not be "naive". Innocent, trusting, dependent, joyful, energetic, playful, youthful (strong, curious, ever learning, imaginative, void of the destructive culture of worldly adulthood; the love of money, greed, strife)
<>---<>---<>
But even in children, there is a knowing that boys and girls are to be together, despite the strange..."cooties" thing, which I never had to deal with.
I don't think the intimacy of Heaven, if the physical aspect still exists (it is not said to not exist, sola scriptura), it will not be out of longing, but of fulfilling the over-abundance of love for that "soul-mate".
Something perhaps like; "I love you so much, I must express it, and a hug simply will not do".
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 10:26:39 PM
We will have bodies of "flesh and blood" (solidity), only they will be glorified, and spiritual, which is not to say ethereal, but of a higher nature, a righteous nature.
Christ did not come to the apostles in glory as a ghost, he came and ate many times, and was able to be touched, and to touch. He wasn't a presence, he is a being.
Our resurrection is modeled after his, we are joint heirs in Christ, and joint heirs do not get lesser demoted versions of the reward.
The facts:
Christ was solid, but not bound. He ate, but could walk through a locked door.
The body is righteous, and spiritual, but not that of a ghostly existence. It is glorified.
Christ was recognisable, and kept his identity. He remained male, and remains male to this day, in a glorified male body. Gender, relationships, God given preferences, God given quirks and uniqueness are a prime part of our Identity, which will be glorified, not shunned.
---
We will be as children, but I suspect we will not be "naive". Innocent, trusting, dependent, joyful, energetic, playful, youthful (strong, curious, ever learning, imaginative, void of the destructive culture of worldly adulthood; the love of money, greed, strife)
<>---<>---<>
But even in children, there is a knowing that boys and girls are to be together, despite the strange..."cooties" thing, which I never had to deal with.
I don't think the intimacy of Heaven, if the physical aspect still exists (it is not said to not exist, sola scriptura), it will not be out of longing, but of fulfilling the over-abundance of love for that "soul-mate".
Something perhaps like; "I love you so much, I must express it, and a hug simply will not do".
I hope your right. But when Jesus was glorified, he did not have carnal desires, he may have eaten, but knowing a woman is carnally minded, which is death. Loving someone can be expressed in other ways, but loving getting to know someone is a bodily carnal activity. So there might be a higher expression of love in heaven, where we no longer need to make love, but rather we express it through kind words and a kiss so that marriage is no longer a done thing. For without the lusts of the flesh, there would be no desire for sexual activity, a bit like how an old couple are married but no longer desire sexual activity or some folks out there who have cruxified their carnal desires and no longer have need for sexual activity, such as Paul.
I did receive an interesting thought though about who we are as people, and it might shed some light on this topic here, if I decide to share it.
What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal? To know your wife, we might say.
Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply? How can you do that if you do not have sex? The physical act of making love, is not carnal. The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal. Love was meant to be the drive behind it. Lust is a perversion of Love.
Quote from: thinktank on August 20, 2010, 10:53:38 PM
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 10:26:39 PM
We will have bodies of "flesh and blood" (solidity), only they will be glorified, and spiritual, which is not to say ethereal, but of a higher nature, a righteous nature.
Christ did not come to the apostles in glory as a ghost, he came and ate many times, and was able to be touched, and to touch. He wasn't a presence, he is a being.
Our resurrection is modeled after his, we are joint heirs in Christ, and joint heirs do not get lesser demoted versions of the reward.
The facts:
Christ was solid, but not bound. He ate, but could walk through a locked door.
The body is righteous, and spiritual, but not that of a ghostly existence. It is glorified.
Christ was recognisable, and kept his identity. He remained male, and remains male to this day, in a glorified male body. Gender, relationships, God given preferences, God given quirks and uniqueness are a prime part of our Identity, which will be glorified, not shunned.
---
We will be as children, but I suspect we will not be "naive". Innocent, trusting, dependent, joyful, energetic, playful, youthful (strong, curious, ever learning, imaginative, void of the destructive culture of worldly adulthood; the love of money, greed, strife)
<>---<>---<>
But even in children, there is a knowing that boys and girls are to be together, despite the strange..."cooties" thing, which I never had to deal with.
I don't think the intimacy of Heaven, if the physical aspect still exists (it is not said to not exist, sola scriptura), it will not be out of longing, but of fulfilling the over-abundance of love for that "soul-mate".
Something perhaps like; "I love you so much, I must express it, and a hug simply will not do".
I hope your right. But when Jesus was glorified, he did not have carnal desires, he may have eaten, but knowing a woman is carnally minded, which is death. Loving someone can be expressed in other ways, but loving getting to know someone is a bodily carnal activity. So there might be a higher expression of love in heaven, where we no longer need to make love, but rather we express it through kind words and a kiss so that marriage is no longer a done thing. For without the lusts of the flesh, there would be no desire for sexual activity, a bit like how an old couple are married but no longer desire sexual activity or some folks out there who have cruxified their carnal desires and no longer have need for sexual activity, such as Paul.
I did receive an interesting thought though about who we are as people, and it might shed some light on this topic here, if I decide to share it.
This is a seriously odd way to look at intimacy. I know some individuals who were shamed into thinking of sex this way but rarely balanced and healthy people. You believe making love to your wife is carnally minded? Do you mean like crude desires of the flesh sort of carnal? So God, invented this crude carnal sexual desire a man has towards his wife? I feel for you if this is the relationship you are exposed to. I don't know your marriage situation but making love to your wife can be one of the most intense spiritual experiences a couple can have with each other. It is the completion of the union...one body...one flesh. It aids to intertwine a couple spiritually as well as emotionally and physically.
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 11:26:01 PM
What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal? To know your wife, we might say.
Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply? How can you do that if you do not have sex? The physical act of making love, is not carnal. The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal. Love was meant to be the drive behind it. Lust is a perversion of Love.
Exactly. Men turn gifts of God into something carnal. That doesn't make it any less a gift of God.
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 11:26:01 PM
What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal? To know your wife, we might say.
Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply? How can you do that if you do not have sex? The physical act of making love, is not carnal. The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal. Love was meant to be the drive behind it. Lust is a perversion of Love.
I guess it's difficult to know the difference and what exactly is it to be carnally minded. To me a healthy relationship would have lust+love= know one another. But the world tends to do away with love and focus only on the lust aspects, school education only focuses on the physcial aspect and not the love aspect etc.
So in an old couple they would no longer have any lust but their love remains, which keeps them together. So what im saying is, in heaven, there would be no lust, adrenaline, which are of the flesh etc so sexual activity would not exist, just as hunger would not exist, so what remains is the love, so the love for our wife would remain but the lust of it would no longer remain, hence Jesus saying there is no marriage in heaven.
I'm one of those who say the body is evil, but the scriptures indicate that earthly sensual activity does not exist in heaven.
Quote from: thinktank on August 21, 2010, 01:47:40 AM
Quote from: Lefein on August 20, 2010, 11:26:01 PM
What verse says to know a woman is to be carnal? To know your wife, we might say.
Did God in the sinlessness of the garden not say: Be fruitful and multiply? How can you do that if you do not have sex? The physical act of making love, is not carnal. The lust behind the drive in this world is what makes it carnal. Love was meant to be the drive behind it. Lust is a perversion of Love.
I guess it's difficult to know the difference and what exactly is it to be carnally minded. To me a healthy relationship would have lust+love= know one another. But the world tends to do away with love and focus only on the lust aspects, school education only focuses on the physcial aspect and not the love aspect etc.
So in an old couple they would no longer have any lust but their love remains, which keeps them together. So what im saying is, in heaven, there would be no lust, adrenaline, which are of the flesh etc so sexual activity would not exist, just as hunger would not exist, so what remains is the love, so the love for our wife would remain but the lust of it would no longer remain, hence Jesus saying there is no marriage in heaven.
I'm one of those who say the body is evil, but the scriptures indicate that earthly sensual activity does not exist in heaven.
Can you name these scriptures?
1 john 2 , 16
For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof:but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever.
2 peter 1:4
1 Peter 4 :2
that he no longer lives to the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.
1 peter 1:24 for all flesh is as grass, snd all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass whithereth, and the flower thereof falleth away.
I did find this though
hebrews 13, 4 marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled, but whoremongers and adulterers god will judge.
I'm glad to report that I think I have been wrong on this issue. For adam and Eve were created in perfection and they had the ability to know each other. So if lust is not of the father and is the only way for a man to connect with a woman, then it means Adam would not be able to have kids, for he would not have any interest.
So the lust of the flesh and the pride of life must be something else, different than appreciation of beauty and making love, but some kind of carnal fleshy type perversion. :2c:
Yeah, I certainly believe it's a blessed thing within marriage. I'm just not sure it's part of post-resurrection. Really, I don't believe it is, but I could be wrong. "...neither marrying nor giving in marriage".
If it's not, God's got something even better.
Found this interesting answer to the question at gotquestions.org
"At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven" (verse 30). Jesus teaches here that marriage is a relationship to be enjoyed in this life, but it will not carry forward into the next life.
The appetites and desires of this world will give way to higher and infinitely more gratifying delights in the world to come.
For centuries, the temple and its sacrifices were at the heart of worship, but once Christ came and offered Himself as the ultimate sacrifice, the temple system and its sacrifices were no longer needed (John 4:22-23). They were "copies of the heavenly things," and the earthly temple was only "a copy of the true one" in heaven (Hebrews 9:23-24). In the same way, the marriage relationship is a picture of our relationship with Christ (Ephesians 5:31-32). Once we are present with Christ, the illustration will no longer be needed. We will have the reality, which is far better than any earthly representation. This is why Jesus is called the Bridegroom, the Church is called His Bride, and our celebration in heaven is called the Wedding (John 3:29; Matthew 22:1-14; Revelation 19:7-9).
Quote from: thinktank on August 24, 2010, 04:47:00 AM
I'm glad to report that I think I have been wrong on this issue. For adam and Eve were created in perfection and they had the ability to know each other. So if lust is not of the father and is the only way for a man to connect with a woman, then it means Adam would not be able to have kids, for he would not have any interest.
So the lust of the flesh and the pride of life must be something else, different than appreciation of beauty and making love, but some kind of carnal fleshy type perversion. :2c:
You got it. It's like the difference between enjoying a good meal and gluttony. One is of God and the other is not. There is nothing lustful about making love to your wife. It is a beautiful act given to husband and wife by God. It is not to be compared to bedding a stranger or even some acts that a husband and wife may perform with each other. I won't be graphic but there are even some acts between a husband and wife that are not about love making and all about the high of lust and fantasy.
I'll be honest. Concerning the whole "Once we are present with Christ, the illustration will no longer be needed." issue.
I am (still) not comfortable with the idea of being fulfilled romantically by Jesus, as many want to imply when they put up those verses as their defacto answer.
I have yet to receive a worthwhile apology on the subject (especially dealing with that particular issue) either, unfortunately, and much to my displeasure.
But the floor is open for anyone willing to give the challenge a shot. Holy Spirit wisdom would be keenest, of course.
I understand. I'm also a red-blooded American male.
Thinking here - maybe we won't need "romantic fulfillment" as we currently envision it in these bodies of mortal flesh. Maybe there's something higher and better that we are unable to currently understand, and some of our needs and drives we have now will no longer be an issue.
I think of the scripture about God's thoughts and ways being higher than ours...maybe we don't currently have the capacity to understand fully what He has in store for us.
Which brings to mind another scripture, that the things we go through here are not worthy to be compared to the glory He has in store for us...
Maybe we often look at things from the basis of clay/earth, not really able to see the heavenlies. Sometimes for me, trust just has to come into play. :2c:
That only leads to the other portion of that. (and I apologise for stubbornness, but..)
Heaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan. It is like churches who say dancing is a sin...best way to put it for comparison I suppose.
I'll think about your most recent response...was working on this followup to my last post :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on August 24, 2010, 07:35:28 AM
maybe we won't need "romantic fulfillment"
Did Jesus? Even though He was flesh, walked amongst us, and was tempted and suffered as we, still, was He on another plane somehow? And
that was in His
earthly body. I would think when we're more like Him, and especially in our glorified bodies, well, I expect some things to be very different -
better. :bigGrin:
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 07:46:27 AM
That only leads to the other portion of that. (and I apologise for stubbornness, but..)
Heaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan. It is like churches who say dancing is a sin...best way to put it for comparison I suppose.
But wouldn't that be like saying God is boring and He has no plan or capacity to have things wonderful for us? However He chooses to do it?
I'll look for more scriptures and explanation...
But Jesus is God. That'd be like, being romantic with your child from his point of view...
It seems completely fathomless and...to be honest unintelligent (not that you are unintelligent, merely the idea is utterly anathema to me), that somehow life will be better without romance. Anger, Hate, and Jealousy sure, but romance? What is so much better about family love, that it must remain while romance which is so bonding must be abolished for the sake of literally only God knows what, which from the thoughts of others, is comfortless jibberish on Christ being our Husband, and how every one is brother and sister in Heaven? (Again, this is not directed at you, my anger is at the half-hearted answers of stumbling Christendom)
Not to be brash or sound so crass about it...merely that I am a lover, and romantic at heart, and being, and always have been. To be stripped of it is to be stripped of my identity, and be replaced with a (to my view) revolting mockery, albeit glorified, of merest, and forced satisfaction through "siblinghood". Revolting, as I do not want to be demoted to homogenous mono-agape, with familiar ties that I do not hold very high. I'd rather have a wife, over a mother - I'd rather have a wife over siblings.
But to be clear, I do believe my repulsion is because of the inability of the church to give an answer, that does not sound like mythical pie in the sky, when I am hungry here on earth. And God unfortunately, has not come down wrapped in cherubim to tell me either...a thing that has been straining me, and angering me a bit lately...
As for God being "boring", I do not wish to offend his Highest Majesty by saying anything close...only that Heaven doesn't look like much to look forward to the way mainstream Christianity these days likes to present it...
"Golf courses everywhere! And everyone is so good and loving...just no romance."
"YOU'LL SERVE GOD AND YOU'LL LIKE IT! YE AIN'T GOIN FER FUN, YER GOIN TO SERVE GOD IN A CHURCH SERVICE FOREVER!!!!!! IFIN YE DON'T WANT IT, GO TO HELL! AIN'T NO ROOM FOR THE HAPPY THINGS YE HAVE ON EARTH! IT'LL ALL GET REPLACED BY ETHEREAL FRUITINESS LIKE ANGELS!!" (in essence, no such thing as cake in Heaven, you'll have to be perfectly happy doing something like praying in thees and thous forever, because you aren't allowed to have cake and Jesus too, you can only have Jesus, anything else but Jesus is being earthly, and dang it all if you aren't a sinner, or else you're "immature, or carnal" because you'd like to have cake in heaven too) [as you can tell, I really, really, really hate it when people preach this kind of Heaven, even indirectly]
Seems to be the two extremes I've seen when the answers are presented...not that I've ever been told the last one up front, but...it is really what it boils down to.
But scriptures that provide solid comfort, will indeed be helpful, and I bless, and thank you for your patience. Even with my probably...unhappy, disposition about it. Please bear with me, for it is a very, very tough issue. Especially when romance (of a beautiful sort) is my identity, but already it is met with scorn on the earth.
There's so much I understand and relate to in your post. Golf courses everywhere, I definitely could go for. LOL
I won't attempt to answer all in detail, but something that jumped out is, maybe that's part of the issue, is "what the churches have to say about it"? In my humble(d) opinion, some things they get right, some things woefully wrong. However, sometimes I just want to hear what I want to hear, also. :pitiful:
Again, while you were working on your response, I was working on another. I'll go ahead and post it, even though at least parts of it may lean towards your "what the church says" direction. However, I found it interesting, part of it humurous, and at least part of it perhaps helpful. We'll see. And we can keep digging if need be. I do think he's got a little different spin on it.
This from Grantley Morris;
"If owning a brand new Ferrari causes a toy peddle car to lose some of its appeal, heavenly pleasures outclass the best that earthly romance offers. What we now think is the ultimate in red-blooded passion, thrilling adventure and heart-thumping excitement will be seen as boring child-play, once we taste the wonders of heaven.
Do you think the Creator of sex has reached his limit in his ability to give us pleasure and fulfillment? Do you suppose that in the infinity of the Almighty's loving wisdom he has reserved for our heavenly reward that which is second rate relative to what he has already given fallen humanity? There is a spiritual ecstasy of which the highest sexual experience, the greatest romance, the most exciting adventure is but the faintest shadow. There are exquisite sensations and rapturous delights that so exhilarate, intoxicate and transport every fiber of one's being that our present bodies and emotions would explode if subjected them. Pinnacles of pleasure beyond our dreams all revolve around loving and adoring Almighty God. Every Christian is destined for them. All we need do is remain faithful in this life, allowing ourselves to be captivated by the beauty of Jesus.
For anyone to lament there being no sex in heaven is like lamenting that there will be no Barbie Dolls. Everything wonderful that anyone has ever experienced on earth will be raised so many levels that so-call adult pleasures will pale in the same way as we currently look back on what seemed the most important thing on earth when we were four years old. If we keep our eyes on Jesus, mind-boggling things are ahead!"
--------------------
I love golf. Sometimes I'm convicted that I need to be sure I'm loving Jesus first. That He is in first place. To that regard, Mr. Morris says this;
"to be captivated by the beauty of Jesus." I'm reminded of the scripture (and I fail miserably) where Jesus said our love for Him should be so strong and primary that all else [IN COMPARISON] fades. I like the contextual comparison/contrast of this translation; "If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison--your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26 New Living Translation
Anything there helpful? Or are we still grumpy? :laughing7:
Helpful, less grumpy...But I still find myself held aback by the...Jesus = our provider of heavenly orgasm....I need not go further.
I do not know how any pastor on this earth has managed to shatter than revulsion! And I am not even sure if it is sin, perversion, or just plain rebellion and hindrance towards my walk with God to have such an area, where I can actually be repulsed by fellowship with him.
It just makes my mind curdle for some reason...the reason probably obvious. >~<
I understand Jesus being first, but...Not to such an end that he becomes my lover? Surely? >~<
Note, I do not equate romance, and love between a husband and wife as sexuality, but in the sense that it is fundamentally wrong to be both Father, and Lover to your adopted son, or daughter, especially when your son, and daughter adopted are husband and wife....or 'where'...>_>
I really, really do apologise again though for being difficult. But eventually, and surely there will be atleast some sort of thing to appear that rings with my spirit and doesn't bring out revulsion in it.
Though, I do understand the part about "upgrades" from earth to Heaven...But some upgrades just sound outright gross, or base to be honest. I would be sickened (and am) at the thought that my Father in Heaven is presented as being more or less, a sovereign harem lord, that man was made to fill it.
We have neglected what is more out of reach to Adamic creatures: the Transcendence of our personal God. It seems that whatever we are now is in seed form of what will be. Discussing relevance of things of this eon compared to the resurrection body Paul says that, "Foods for the bowels and the bowels for foods, yet God will be discarding these as well as those." (1 Cor 613; Conc. Lit.) Yet, Jesus ate after being resurrected immortal. When "this body of our humiliation metamorphoses into a body like unto His body of glory" there are other functions and forms we will be enabled to assume. The glorified form of of our embodiment, similar to what the body of the acorn is to the body of the oak tree, only more so by many orders of magnitude, has not been abundantly clear to most people. Scripture says, "Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is." (1 Jn 32; CLT)
It seems to me that whatever orgasmic union is to the body of our humiliation, when elevated into a body of "glory," and a glory of the Divine substance even, it would be so much more of an experience, quantitatively and quantitatively, that it is beyond our present comprehension, though there are some inklings by the spirit. Certainly committed associations will have more than billions of years to continue and also assume new configurations.
I have been overcome by the Holy Spirit in various ways, whether so overcome I collapsed, was brought into higher realms, separated from my body, experiencing Him like electric rain to the verge of it being unbearable, and so on...these all testify of something greater to come when our bodies, instead of Adam, are born of God. What we have now is but the earnest of our inheritance. But that portion is the graces, services, operations, manifestations (cp., 1 Co 124-7) of a promissory Spirit giving a foretaste of what will be in immortality. In this age, things more intricate are more fragile. The most delicate self is only possible for a permanent being. So, the intimacies of immortals we are right to assume to be of greater and more durable ecstasy.
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 08:03:18 AM
But Jesus is God. That'd be like, being romantic with your child from his point of view...
It seems completely fathomless and...to be honest unintelligent (not that you are unintelligent, merely the idea is utterly anathema to me), that somehow life will be better without romance. Anger, Hate, and Jealousy sure, but romance? What is so much better about family love, that it must remain while romance which is so bonding must be abolished for the sake of literally only God knows what, which from the thoughts of others, is comfortless jibberish on Christ being our Husband, and how every one is brother and sister in Heaven? (Again, this is not directed at you, my anger is at the half-hearted answers of stumbling Christendom)
Not to be brash or sound so crass about it...merely that I am a lover, and romantic at heart, and being, and always have been. To be stripped of it is to be stripped of my identity, and be replaced with a (to my view) revolting mockery, albeit glorified, of merest, and forced satisfaction through "siblinghood". Revolting, as I do not want to be demoted to homogenous mono-agape, with familiar ties that I do not hold very high. I'd rather have a wife, over a mother - I'd rather have a wife over siblings.
But to be clear, I do believe my repulsion is because of the inability of the church to give an answer, that does not sound like mythical pie in the sky, when I am hungry here on earth. And God unfortunately, has not come down wrapped in cherubim to tell me either...a thing that has been straining me, and angering me a bit lately...
As for God being "boring", I do not wish to offend his Highest Majesty by saying anything close...only that Heaven doesn't look like much to look forward to the way mainstream Christianity these days likes to present it...
"Golf courses everywhere! And everyone is so good and loving...just no romance."
"YOU'LL SERVE GOD AND YOU'LL LIKE IT! YE AIN'T GOIN FER FUN, YER GOIN TO SERVE GOD IN A CHURCH SERVICE FOREVER!!!!!! IFIN YE DON'T WANT IT, GO TO HELL! AIN'T NO ROOM FOR THE HAPPY THINGS YE HAVE ON EARTH! IT'LL ALL GET REPLACED BY ETHEREAL FRUITINESS LIKE ANGELS!!" (in essence, no such thing as cake in Heaven, you'll have to be perfectly happy doing something like praying in thees and thous forever, because you aren't allowed to have cake and Jesus too, you can only have Jesus, anything else but Jesus is being earthly, and dang it all if you aren't a sinner, or else you're "immature, or carnal" because you'd like to have cake in heaven too) [as you can tell, I really, really, really hate it when people preach this kind of Heaven, even indirectly]
Seems to be the two extremes I've seen when the answers are presented...not that I've ever been told the last one up front, but...it is really what it boils down to.
But scriptures that provide solid comfort, will indeed be helpful, and I bless, and thank you for your patience. Even with my probably...unhappy, disposition about it. Please bear with me, for it is a very, very tough issue. Especially when romance (of a beautiful sort) is my identity, but already it is met with scorn on the earth.
I'm not sure why this post made me smile and then chuckle. I guess I just like the fact you just get to the nitty gritty of your thinking on this topic. I enjoy conversing with those who just lay it out there for discussion. That is a trait I respect.
With that said, I'm not sure who you are angry with. Is it the church? I mean you got to cut em a break. The Bible is silent on these matters. Their opinions are just that opinions and I wouldn't take it as more significant than that. It's my opinion the church should be silent on these matters. We have no way of knowing one way or the other. And maturation with this subject will come for you when you release it and just trust God in these matters. There are many topics the Bible is silent on and it's easy to let our minds run wild. It's easy to allow these topics to distract us, then hurt our walk. Just my 2 cents.
Quote from: LefeinHeaven without romance, sounds like a paradise fit only for the joyless, strict puritan.
Hey! I resemble that remark! :happygrin:
Because I could not stop for Death,
He kindly stopped for me;
The carriage held but just ourselves
And Immortality.
We slowly drove, he knew no haste,
And I had put away
My labour, and my leisure too,
For his civility.
We passed the school where children played,
Their lessons scarcely done;
We passed the fields of gazing grain,
We passed the setting sun.
We paused before a house that seemed
A swelling of the ground;
The roof was scarcely visible,
The cornice but a mound.
Since then 'tis centuries; but each
Feels shorter than the day
I first surmised the horses' heads
Were toward eternity.
--Emily Dickenson
Shawn: Your post makes a great deal of sense. And in a similar way that I got down to the nitty-gritty, I think you answered with nitty-gritty too. "Who am I truly angry with? And why? How does his harm my walk?" You've given me a much better answer I think, than much of the pastorate. An honest one, at the least, the right one, at best.
hmmn...God has been dealing with me lately I think, about some major trust issues, perhaps this is a part of it.
Molly: That poem sounds familiar somehow...lol
Lefein,
I just want to say --that whatever we are, he made us that way, and I believe he will help us to realize all the dreams we have and make us the perfected completion of ourselves.
And, don't knock Puritans! :icon_king:
Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart.
Molly, I'm cool with you claiming it. But would a totally dyed in the wool puritan use that little icon of the smilie with the little crooked crown? You're gonna have to settle down. :laughhand:
I didn't mean disrespect when I used the term Puritan. It was the only word I could think of that held the image of a very bitter, and joyless sort of Christian, something like what I had read where if you ate a single bite before saying Grace, you where removed from the dinner table, and if a child spoke in church, or laughed he was whipped. But, I'd have to find the source, it might not have been the Puritans at all.
I do apologise though, for rudeness. And I thank you for your encouragement.
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 08:22:49 AM
Helpful, less grumpy...But I still find myself held aback by the...Jesus = our provider of heavenly orgasm....I need not go further.
I do not know how any pastor on this earth has managed to shatter than revulsion! And I am not even sure if it is sin, perversion, or just plain rebellion and hindrance towards my walk with God to have such an area, where I can actually be repulsed by fellowship with him.
It just makes my mind curdle for some reason...the reason probably obvious. >~<
I understand Jesus being first, but...Not to such an end that he becomes my lover? Surely? >~<
Note, I do not equate romance, and love between a husband and wife as sexuality, but in the sense that it is fundamentally wrong to be both Father, and Lover to your adopted son, or daughter, especially when your son, and daughter adopted are husband and wife....or 'where'...>_>
I really, really do apologise again though for being difficult. But eventually, and surely there will be atleast some sort of thing to appear that rings with my spirit and doesn't bring out revulsion in it.
Though, I do understand the part about "upgrades" from earth to Heaven...But some upgrades just sound outright gross, or base to be honest. I would be sickened (and am) at the thought that my Father in Heaven is presented as being more or less, a sovereign harem lord, that man was made to fill it.
My thoughts exactly. But if you calm down and think it through, you'll realize the foolishness of what you are saying as I once did. You are comparing Jesus to your wife, but jesus is only similar in type, for your wife is your wife. Jesus calls the church his bride for that is the best description, for one is closer to their wife than anyone else. I bet you tell things to Jesus that you don't tell your wife :winkgrin:
Jesus is God and created the human body and so he knows you on an intimate basis in any case and will be with us in spirit throughout eternity. Jesus in body will live in heavenly Jerusalem for all to see, so I don't think church will be in bed with him there, wouldn't he be behaving like mystery babylon the " :winkgrin:
QuoteI have been overcome by the Holy Spirit in various ways, whether so overcome I collapsed, was brought into higher realms, separated from my body, experiencing Him like electric rain to the verge of it being unbearable, and so on...these all testify of something greater to come when our bodies, instead of Adam, are born of God.
reFORMer I know what you mean. I have never experienced anything like the love of God. It is so much better than any type of romantic love down here. And in the purest way.
I am sort of sad to say that I hope there really won't be any more "romantic" or sexual "love". In my life this type of "love" has mostly been hurtful to me. I don't mean to say that God intended for sex and marriage to be hurtful because He certainly didn't. I feel grateful for those of you who have had God intended wonderful experiences in this area. I have longed for it myself. But nothing compares to the agape of God. And Lefein it is completely different from sex or romance, it is so much better, it is pure and holy and has nothing to do with sex.
I picture it as everyone living as brothers and sisters with one Father... not in the boring way you describe it, but everyone having close intimate relationships and loving without fear.
Thinktank: I'm not yet married ;p ...physically, but I am "believing" hard enough that I "speak as if it is done" I suppose haha.
But...I do admit my foolishness. I really am not quite sure at all where all of this is coming from in me, to be honest. I've wrestled with it for a very long time, with little headway is all. I am hoping the breakthrough will be here at last.
I believe I distilled all of my struggle in this area down to a simple issue. For as much as I walk with God, I have difficulty trusting him - difficulty trusting anyone really. Without being able to trust God, there is a resentment towards him, and the churches who like to "throw it in my face" to trust him without really giving any practical support. Marriage is intimate, and intimacy requires trust. Trust in my life's experience, has been a luxury in rarity.
But, atleast I know the root of the issue in the verse itself now...At least as far as God's part, and reasoning in this goes.
Lomorah: It is not the sex, that bothered me, or even the physical pleasure. It was the thought that any of my deepest relationships could/or will, be uprooted, and my identity "distorted", while the relationship is replaced with a sister, and a portion of that which makes me "me", and beautiful - abolished.
I don't like the idea of being a merely glorified "brother and sister" with everyone, it could be said that artists and lovers absolutely despise the idea of being "mediocre" (even a heavenly form of it) amidst the mass. A great deal of that, is that here on earth I do not hold the familiar relationship (being a brother, and son) at all high. I am not close to any of my siblings, neither my parents. I don't desire it.
But it seems simply enough, that I have yet to be able to trust God in the matter...Which may yet be a clinging tumour from ET days. "God isn't sovereign enough to do his own will, how can I trust him with my wants?"
It is unfortunately, a spiritual tumour that is stubborn, and doesn't want to go away.
...Does anyone have any practical advice on this problem? Now that it comes up?
Quote from: Lefein on August 24, 2010, 09:26:30 PM
Thinktank: I'm not yet married ;p
:thumbsup: I'm just in time to warn you... :winkgrin:
Quote...physically, but I am "believing" hard enough that I "speak as if it is done" I suppose haha.
No man is complete, until he is married -- then he's finished.
QuoteI'm just in time to warn you...
Though it is a long story, I'm somehow actually aware (or to some degree) of the difficulties of marriage without yet being so, I do believe God has a sense of humour when he puts me in the furnace... >_>'
QuoteNo man is complete, until he is married -- then he's finished.
HA! I see the joke you made there. :p Finished...xD