Eternal Destruction

[thinktank]

Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this;  hope it's meaningful.
Jabcat

I think I made a mistake, I was convinced that the devil passage contianed refererences to smoke, but I can't find it. The smoke reference was earlier in the book and that's talking about the plagues of revelation, which is a different event to the lake of fire.

I don't belive this down below but something I looked at.
If we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"

The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.

[shawn]

Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this;  hope it's meaningful.
Jabcat

I think I made a mistake, I was convinced that the devil passage contianed refererences to smoke, but I can't find it. The smoke reference was earlier in the book and that's talking about the plagues of revelation, which is a different event to the lake of fire.

I don't belive this down below but something I looked at.
If we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"

The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.

Rev 14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.


If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction.  Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing?  For me, this is counterintuitive.  While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.

[WhiteWings]

If we have a seperate spirit being and are thrown into some kind of spiritual fire then there's some kind of torment happening, because it says the devil is tormented, the demons who speak to Jesus said, "art thou come to torment us before our time"

The letters to the churches say he that overcome will not be hurt by the second death. So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now.
That's what bothers me about the lake of fire is theres not much info about it, but just got to trust God.

The Strong defenion of "hurt" is weird.
91 avdike,w adikeo {ad-ee-keh'-o}
Meaning:  1) absolutely 1a) to act unjustly or wickedly, to sin, 1b) to be a criminal, to have violated the laws in some way 1c) to do wrong 1d) to do hurt 2) transitively 2a) to do some wrong or sin in some respect 2b) to wrong some one, act wickedly towards him 2c) to hurt, damage, harm

5686 Tense - Aorist (See 5777) Voice - Passive (See 5786) Mood - Subjunctive (See 5792) Count - 219 Whatever happens in LoF is not pleasant.

Death is only about the death of the body:
2288 qa,natoj thanatos {than'-at-os}
Meaning:  1) the death of the body 1a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended 1b) with the implied idea of future misery in hell 1b1) the power of death 1c) since the nether world, the abode of the dead, was conceived as being very dark, it is equivalent to the region of thickest darkness i.e. figuratively, a region enveloped in the darkness of ignorance and sin 2) metaph., the loss of that life which alone is worthy of the name, 2a) the misery of the soul arising from sin, which begins on earth but lasts and increases after the death of the body in hell 3) the miserable state of the wicked dead in hell 4) in the widest sense, death comprising all the miseries arising from sin, as well physical death as the loss of a life consecrated to God and blessed in him on earth, to be followed by wretchedness in hell

[WhiteWings]

I hear you!  I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.

Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)

Personally I use www.bibleworks.com

Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.

I mean, I wish I had some of those for the deuterocanonical books like Sirach, Wisdom, Macabees.

I have eSword and I use it all the time - I have the NAB module but it doesn't have a Strong's type translator associated with it; it's just the text.

Your link is AWESOME and I'll be poking around there too!

You need the KJV+ for Strong links.
Even better is KJV+TVM => Tense Mood Voice
KVJA includes Apocryptica.
I can upload all my v9 modules (363 MByte)


http://www.thelostbooks.com/

[jabcat]

Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."

------
Rev 14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction.  Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing?  For me, this is counterintuitive.  While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.

Good points/questions.  I can only share from the best I understand at this time.

I tend to believe we all die a second death.  We're born into this life, first death.  We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death.  Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction.  The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection.  The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection.  The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.  

I'll know more later.   :bigGrin:

[shawn]

Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."

------
Rev 14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction.  Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing?  For me, this is counterintuitive.  While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.

Good points/questions.  I can only share from the best I understand at this time.

I tend to believe we all die a second death.  We're born into this life, first death.  We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death.  Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction.  The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection.  The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection.  The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.  

I'll know more later.   :bigGrin:

That sounds great.  I really hope you are right on.

[CHB]

Quote thinktank - "So to me there is a possibility of something painful happening in the lake of fire, maybe this is what Jesus wants to save us from, i.e forced into cleansing and purging, instead of the willful cleansing that we partake of now."

------
Rev 14-15

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

If death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire for destruction.  Why do some believe nonbelievers will be thrown into the lake of fire for cleansing?  For me, this is counterintuitive.  While I suppose it's possible that the Bible is merely referring the part of the person that is not of God...I'm not sure that's the most likely interpretation of that particular passage.

Good points/questions.  I can only share from the best I understand at this time.

I tend to believe we all die a second death.  We're born into this life, first death.  We die to self, a process of "old things passing away, all things becoming new" [lit. trans.] begins - the second death.  Some now, the rest later, taking the broad road to destruction.  The ecclesia in this lifetime are not hurt of the second death, and are part of the first resurrection.  The rest, are "hurt" by the second death, and are part of the second resurrection.  The ecclesia are used to "help" bring the rest in, as in "the kings of the nations bring their treasures into" the New Jerusalem.  

I'll know more later.   :bigGrin:

jabcat,

This is the way I understand this as well.

CHB

[jabcat]

Good, thanks for the witness, C.

This question/issue prompted me to do some looking about people leaving the Lake of Fire.  (I believe it's spiritual).

Anyway, first of all, I saw a Q&A website, and actually saw this quote -

3. Norm Geisler said, "Hell is the most glorious of all Christian doctrines, because it proves that man is truly free." What do you think he meant by that? Do you agree?

[Answer]  Completely.     (editorial comment - :thumbdown:)


Well, on to things that are honest, pure, and of a good report (think on these things).  From   http://www.godsplanforall.com/lakeoffire1

This excerpt was taken;


Please note that the nations are saved and walk in the light of the Holy City. Who are these nations? These nations are none other than those who have undergone the Second Death through the Lake of Fire judgement. The gates of the Holy City are never closed, which means that the offer of salvation remains open. The kings of the earth bring their glory into the Holy City, New Jerusalem, as they become birthed in the Bride, the Lamb's Wife. The only way the kings of the earth can bring their glory into the Holy City is for them to become Righteous with God's Righteousness through repentance and God given faith in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ to glorify God the Father.

This is a wonderful and glorious picture of a continuous flow of people ascending from the Lake of Fire to enter through the gates of the Holy City to be born into the Bride of Christ, the Lamb's Wife, as they repent and accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour. They leave behind them the Lake of Fire where the wicked are still being judged until they too come to repentance and enter the gates of Righteousness to accept Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Along with your sentiments Shawn, God let it be true, amen.

[shawn]

Just curious Jab was that one authors opinion or does that have scriptural support?

[jabcat]

I'd need to look more closely at the rest of what he's written about it.  Without scouring his info any more than I have at this point, and without any further direct evidence of where he gets his thoughts, my guesstimates on his thoughts would be;

based on all the many scriptures that do talk of ultimate reconciliation, that this particular piece is then his interpretation of those relevant Revelation passages -
attempting to reconcile all the specific UR verses with how Rev. describes a) the New Jerusalem b) the gates of the city open "day and night" c) kings (we/the ecclesia are kings) entering and bringing their treasures into it, etc.

I'll look more at his writings.  When I found this, I was specifically looking for info/solid interpretation about "leaving the Lake of Fire".

[jabcat]

This question/issue prompted me to do some looking about people leaving the Lake of Fire.  (I believe it's spiritual).

Got me digging, Shawn  :bigGrin:.  I found this statement from Harold Lovelace that goes with the above;

"Did you know that the terms "Holy Ghost and fire," "God is a consuming fire,"
and "lake of fire" all speak of the same type of fire? Did you know that the fire in
each one of these statements all comes from the same Greek word?"

[shawn]

It's always good to do our research.  :)  I have done more research than I have done for quite awhile since coming onto these boards.  Iron sharpening iron...love that statement.    :thumbsup:

[Lefein]

Is it not true that Eternal Destruction is also known as Annihilation?

If so, is it not true, that annihilation is the severest form of death?  Being the complete obliteration of presence, the death of an individual's existence itself?  If so, would death not perpetually be the enemy against God's plan, for those destroyed would be perpetually remembered by God as "finally-infinitely-utterly-forever-dead"?

What then of Christ, who will/has defeat/ed Death?  Christ is life, death is the absence of life.  Where Christ dwells, life dwells, where life dwells, death - the absence of life, is filled, and ceases to be death, absence; but becomes rather, life, and fullness of it.  We should remember, that death did not come about as a creation of God, death came about when man became absent of life; dying you shall die; being cut off from the source of Life; God.  To once have existed, and to now be bereft of existence; annihilated, is to once have had existence, life, but to now be perpetually absent both as an existent being, and to be perpetually a part of the obliterated dead.  To be absent of life, is to be dead, to be absent of existence, when once you where, is to be absent of life.

Lamentations 3:31-33 (New International Version)

31 For men are not cast off
      by the Lord forever.

32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
      so great is his unfailing love.

33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
      or grief to the children of men.

Would annihilation be in conflict with this verse? For he would cast them off from existence forever, if Eternal Destruction are the means by which his justice is fulfilled.  Likewise, failure to endure all things, which is an affront to his unfailing love, when his love endures throughout the remedial ends, unto the glorification of Himself when he can say "Haha! I am not mocked".

[jabcat]

Good points.  Amen.  That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says.  I agree with what you're saying.  If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?

10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.  Jn. 10

Halleluja!  Worthy is the Lamb!

[shawn]

Is it not true that Eternal Destruction is also known as Annihilation?

If so, is it not true, that annihilation is the severest form of death?  Being the complete obliteration of presence, the death of an individual's existence itself?  If so, would death not perpetually be the enemy against God's plan, for those destroyed would be perpetually remembered by God as "finally-infinitely-utterly-forever-dead"?

What then of Christ, who will/has defeat/ed Death?  Christ is life, death is the absence of life.  Where Christ dwells, life dwells, where life dwells, death - the absence of life, is filled, and ceases to be death, absence; but becomes rather, life, and fullness of it.  We should remember, that death did not come about as a creation of God, death came about when man became absent of life; dying you shall die; being cut off from the source of Life; God.  To once have existed, and to now be bereft of existence; annihilated, is to once have had existence, life, but to now be perpetually absent both as an existent being, and to be perpetually a part of the obliterated dead.  To be absent of life, is to be dead, to be absent of existence, when once you where, is to be absent of life.

Lamentations 3:31-33 (New International Version)

31 For men are not cast off
      by the Lord forever.

32 Though he brings grief, he will show compassion,
      so great is his unfailing love.

33 For he does not willingly bring affliction
      or grief to the children of men.

Would annihilation be in conflict with this verse? For he would cast them off from existence forever, if Eternal Destruction are the means by which his justice is fulfilled.  Likewise, failure to endure all things, which is an affront to his unfailing love, when his love endures throughout the remedial ends, unto the glorification of Himself when he can say "Haha! I am not mocked".

I think these are some very good points.  But, I would not consider annihilation anywhere close to the severest form of death.  To be consciously out of God's presence for eternity whether that be in burning flames or in a dark abyss filled with the fullness of sin is the worst thing I can possibly think of.  And I see quite a few verses that support UR.  UR is not without support or I wouldn't be here trying to learn.  With that said, I'm not sure philosophical reasoning is the best way to approach our questions.  We inherently start from an errant metanarrative engulfed in ignorance and a fallen nature.  To believe, we can reason our way into God's mysteries is short sighted at best.  Even though we debate, and struggle together I am fully convinced I will never understand God's judgement until the Holy Spirit reveals it to me.  I lean not on my own understanding but that doesn't keep me from study.  I do try to reason but that doesn't keep me from prayer.  It's very obvious to me that if God wanted us all to know the methods of his judgement they would be clear.  I believe he has given some of the answers to only a select group of people.  I'm really hoping it's this group.  Until he lets me know...I will continue to study and pray.  

[Lefein]

Prayer and Study is indeed the foundation.  But one last thought that comes to heart, if only to ponder it: Remember the Sadducees.

They didn't believe in a resurrection, their theology was that once a person died, they ceased to exist.  Annihilation is at the end of its run, the same in principle.  The only difference is that there is the added step of resurrection, before destruction; the cessation of life - existence.

Jesus said to the Sadducees;

Mat 22:31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,
Mat 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mark 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luke 20:37 Now that the dead are raised, even Moses showed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.
Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

[Molly]

You guys are on a roll.
:Sparkletooth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgAZ2unZIg

[jabcat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtgAZ2unZIg

Just a few chills.   :bigGrin:

[WhiteWings]

Good points.  Amen.  That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says.  I agree with what you're saying.  If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?

10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.  Jn. 10

Halleluja!  Worthy is the Lamb!

From the ET/ED p.o.v. all/kingdom = elect. If not Jesus is the worst shepherd in whole history. A shepherd that saves 1 sheep and let 99 perish.
Not even free will changes that because in that case it means Jesus was far less convincing than satan.

[shawn]

Good points.  Amen.  That was my thought too, that ED means death has not truly been destroyed/overcome as Jesus says.  I agree with what you're saying.  If most (broad road) are eternally dead, exactly how does that make Jesus the complete Victor, with ALL things headed up in Him, summed up, then handed to the Father - Who is then All in All?

10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd...and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.  Jn. 10

Halleluja!  Worthy is the Lamb!

From the ET/ED p.o.v. all/kingdom = elect. If not Jesus is the worst shepherd in whole history. A shepherd that saves 1 sheep and let 99 perish.
Not even free will changes that because in that case it means Jesus was far less convincing than satan.

A couple excellent points.

[jabcat]

 Good, thanks Shawn.

WW, :bigGrin:  And He said "I am the GOOD Shephard".  

[WhiteWings]

GOOD to His own flock surrounded by the 19x bigger flock of satan.  :sigh:

[Molly]

GOOD to His own flock surrounded by the 19x bigger flock of satan.  :sigh:

It certainly seems to be that way in this age.  We're outnumbered, Bro, but-


1 John 4:4
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.

[WhiteWings]

That's not how I see it. The Good Shepherd isn't really searching yet.
But that's not not what I meant.
If ET/ED is true then:
a- 100% of the sheep ever born belong to the Good Shepherd but He's such a failure He looses 95% (Failurism)
or
b- Or Father predestined satans flock 19x bigger than the flock of the Good Shepherd. (Calvinism)
or
c- Or the Shepherd is very lazy and doesn't even attempt to catch the strayed sheep (Armianism)

a- All denominations agree Jesus is perfect in every way. He's not a looser so this option can't be true.
b- Jesus did a good job.
c- Laziness is a sin. So that's not how Jesus would do things.

So the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd  that only looks at His own flock?

[Molly]

So the final question. Jesus is:
1] UR Shepherd that brings all sheep in the fold?
2] Calvinist Shepherd  that only looks at His own flock?

It would have to be 3)all of the above, but in different ages.

In the OT, didn't it look like just the Jews would be saved for a while there?

Revelation 15:3
and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb: "Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages.