Eternal Destruction

[jabcat]

Did you "want" salvation?  Maybe you did.  If so, another question would be, "did Saul want salvation"?  I believe God sets the conditions.  He is Lord.

From J. Preston Eby - "It is NOT of him that WILLETH or of him that runneth, but of GOD that showeth mercy" (Rom. 9:16).

For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all. ... For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.  Romans 11:32

Strange as it may seem there are many today who insist that they believe in salvation by grace, yet they insist that man has the power to "make a decision for Christ."  They affirm that the Bible teaches that the Creator of all things is surely omnipotent, but they are also quite confident that finite man is fully capable of obstructing the will of God. Notice the order: "God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath made us alive together with Christ (by grace are ye saved)" (Eph. 2:4-5).  Man must believe, certainly, but it is not the old deceitful and desperately wicked heart, nor the old carnal mind which believes, but the faith graciously imparted by God as a gift is the agency of man's believing. God has decreed that the works of the flesh shall have no part in the "so great salvation" which He Himself provides.- End quote

[jabcat]

Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED?  Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.

I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all.  I have a fear of my Father's discipline.  Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank.  In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.

Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;

Quote Shawn;  "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love."   Amen.  :2thumbs:

As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".  Pr. 25:2  

Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me.  It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".

JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group?  Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient.  There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization.  They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116

Hopefully that will help in all our search.  

Thanks, James.

[Moshood]

The Wicked are Brought to Destruction without Remedy.

The Wicked is He/She that Defiles the Temple of God which He/She is. We ( All of Us ) are the Temple of God. There is a Carnal ( Natural ) Man/Women and a Spiritual Man/Women. Whichever One is Sitting on the Throne of One's Heart is He/She which either Defiles the Temple of God or Sanctifies the Temple of God. That which Defiles the Temple of God shall be Destroyed and Blotted out of Existence. The Sinner Sitting on the Throne of One's Heart shall be utterly Destroyed and shall Perish Forever. God shall Cleanse His Temple ( All of Us ) with Fire.

[jabcat]

Amen Mosh.   :thumbsup:

A couple of posts relevant to this discussion I found;

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.msg96446#msg96446

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.msg96458#msg96458

"There remains faith, hope, and love.  And the greatest of these is love".  Amen.   :HeartThrob:

[shawn]

Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED?  Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.

I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all.  I have a fear of my Father's discipline.  Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank.  In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.

Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;

Quote Shawn;  "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love."   Amen.  :2thumbs:

As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".  Pr. 25:2  

Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me.  It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".

JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group?  Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient.  There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization.  They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116

Hopefully that will help in all our search.  

Thanks, James.

I think you took my post wrong.  I was talking about UR concerning those of faith but not of the Christian faith.  Because ultimately everyone is saved.  The only place judgement comes into play with UR is with the notion of "burning" out the impurities.  I would suppose the time in the "flame" would be the judgement.

[shawn]

Also Brother Shawn, please explain how you see the idea of judgment being a moot point if one believes in UR, but not if ED?  Maybe I'm just missing what you mean.

I believe in UR, and I don't believe that way at all.  I have a fear of my Father's discipline.  Just because God loves us doesn't mean He won't spank.  In fact, the scriptures say that's why He does discipline, and that we are to not despise it.

Couple of random points based on various posts in this thread;

Quote Shawn;  "I hope we can indeed discuss these topics in a safe environment of tolerance and love."   Amen.  :2thumbs:

As far as the scriptures being easy to understand, simple - "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and the honor of kings to search out a matter".  Pr. 25:2  

Paraphrasing Jesus - "I spoke to them in parables, because if I didn't they would understand and come to me.  It hasn't been given them to understand the...kingdom".

JWs, Mormons, etc., and their interest in translations - are UR people in the same group?  Both of those groups mentioned do not believe in Jesus as the Savior, as in His sacrifice is sufficient.  There are Unitarian Universalists, that IMO, generally is not a Christ-centered organization.  They are not Biblical Universalists, Christian Universalists, Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ UR believers.

http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8094.msg95116#msg95116

Hopefully that will help in all our search.  

Thanks, James.

I understand all that as I am fairly well versed on the viewpoints of UR.  I think you missed my point here as well.

[jabcat]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin: 

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

[thinktank]

Hi thinktank,

Are you describing a UR type of belief where everyone is saved but some have to roast in a physical lake of fire for a while (ages perhaps)?  I know that is not what I believe.

Even though I believe many will go into the lake of fire, I don't believe it is literal fire for the purpose of torture/torment.  I believe it is symbolic of trials by fire and purifying by fire that will make one righteous.

In fact I believe we all go through this fire, some now in this life others later in the lake of fire.

One view which may be possible (but I haven't got my head around yet) is that we are all in the lake of fire RIGHT NOW.

Anyway just some thoughts - UR isn't about torturing people until they submit... IMHO...

legoman


Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.

e.g Depart from me you cursed into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation speaks of a lake of fire and also contains references to smoke. If this means anhilation then it means the devil will be roasted and the smoke of him will rise up a quick death, the reason I say quick death whitewings is because God has already used fire as a judgment in the old testmant and he quickly makes a short work of them. e.g lots wife, vaporized in seconds, Sodom and Gomorah cast down in an instant. However how does smoke in the passage of revelation about the devil relate to UR?

What does smoke mean in the context of the lord purifying gold from inpurities?

Currently we reside upon the earth and there are prophecies in malachi and in psalms that the lord will come to baptize us with fire and refine us., which has happened and is happening now to those that belive. If this is what happens to people in Universalism in a future age then that is great and is similar to what I belive in that, people will be purified upon the earth, some now , while others will be purified after the lord comes back to set his kingdom up, and my argument here is that people have the right to reject this purging fire because God is a gentleman, which means from my view it is possible for someone to reject the lord if they wish. But the classic view of UR as described by Garry is that the people who do not know the lord, will spiritually be taken up to Gods throne and then thrown into some kind of spiritual fire. So if indeed there is such a thing as a spiritual fire,

1. Causes the devil to be thrown in which causes smoke, but in Universalism people don't die, so what does this smoke mean?

2. Also the scripture says that God himself is a puryfying fire, when we accept God as saviour that fire purges us from sin, but the non christian does not ask for this fire and so does not change spiritually as Christians do. But in the book of revelation the lake of fire is seperate thing from God, whereas the baptism of fire or the purging fire is God himself purging us with the holy spirit.

3.Jesus also talks about someone (actually a parable, so not a real person, but an example) who entered in without a robe and says to bind him hand and foot and cast him into fire. (I need to read that passage again to make things clearer.)

So to me I find it hard to believe in classic universalism and I think the lake of fire is annhilation, which I belive is consistent with the old testament scriptures and consistent with fire being destruction. Otherwise we have torment for x amount of time. unless I have missed something about the lake of fire,as I continue to learn about this.

So to me the great hope of universalism and my belief is not the lake of fire but that Jesus will save all people from ever going into that fire and this is the faith that he will.

[jabcat]

Brother thinktank, you questioned the place of smoke...I remembered some of Brother Eby's thoughts on this;  hope it's meaningful.   :thumbsup:

In my study of the lake that burns with fire and brimstone I was very much helped and impressed by the understanding given by Charles Pridgeon and I would like to quote from his scholarly work on the subject of BRIMSTONE. He says: "The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it" -end quote.

I realize that the above thoughts define the subject very briefly, but let us summarize the meanings thus: BURN means combustion; to change the form of. FIRE means heat and light. BRIMSTONE means divine. Putting these three together can we not see that the lake burning with fire and brimstone is, actually, DIVINE HEAT AND LIGHT PRODUCING A CHANGE!

Are the judgments of God permanent? Isaiah says, "When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness" (Isa. 26:9). And Mat. 12:20 says, "A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory." Judgment, therefore, is not an eternal condition, but it is given to produce that victory. Judgments of themselves do not save anyone, but they are used by God to bring one to one's self, to effect a change of attitude and will, to consume away the stubbornness and rebellion of men. Punishment by fire is a beneficent one. "Our GOD is a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29). The basic purpose of this divine fire of God is to cleanse, purify, purge, temper and change. It is to rid of impurities, of filth, of undesirable elements. There is no better way to deal with filth than to deal with it by fire.

[jabcat]

I thought the above was more specific to smoke  :mblush:.  It alludes to it, but I think he said something even more direct.  I'll try to find it.

[jabcat]

Getting closer  :laughing7:

"Thus, to burn means to change.  Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up!  It seeks the highest level.  And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."

[micah7:9]

My point wasn't really to debate ED.  My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.

Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.

And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.

And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.

So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.

No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.

It was this quote that set me back a bit.

I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."

That would be me  Micah, and what suggests to you that people who profess that not all will be saved, that that it is not so? Any theolgy that imposes a punishment such as Eternal Damnation and Eternal Torment in and of it self is saying..."Im good and you are bad and you dont get the good stuff, you get the really bad stuff." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is He died for the sins of world, (mankind creation) and when you, mankind, are dragged (if need be) to the Truth you will be judged, be that now, while you have a space on the earth, or later at the resurrection. The Good News is you will be made ONE with the Father.

Thats Good News! Find the Good News in an eternal damnation or eternal torment, from a God WHO IS LOVE?

[micah7:9]

Getting closer  :laughing7:

"Thus, to burn means to change.  Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up!  It seeks the highest level.  And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."

Glory! :thumbsup:

[thinktank]

Getting closer  :laughing7:

"Thus, to burn means to change.  Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up!  It seeks the highest level.  And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."

I think I see your point and thank you for your gracious reply and efforts, but is it really that complicated? Why didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
But the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament. I think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc but I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.

God bless.

[jabcat]

 :bigGrin:

[legoman]

Getting closer  :laughing7:

"Thus, to burn means to change.  Furthermore, it is interesting to note that fire does not burn down; it always burns up!  It seeks the highest level.  And all that it consumes (changes) truly "goes up in smoke" to exist in a new form in a higher dimension."

I think I see your point and thank you for your gracious reply and efforts, but is it really that complicated? Why didn't God simply say I will wash you with soap
I mean brimstone is suppose to be spiritual, but how does Christendom figure that out? It seems truth it is only available to scholars. Even spiritual clean pastors who seem to be in touch with the lord belive it means ET, so I don't see how being spiritually minded can come to the conclusion that it is a purifying fire.
But the ed view has scriptural and natural backing based on the old testament. I think the best support for the lake of fire being a spiritual fire are the scriptures that say he's like a refiners fire etc but I'm not sure how it can tie up with what I said about God being seperate from the lake of fire.

God bless.

1.  Its all spiritual fire.

2.  God purposely made it hard for us to figure it out.

[shawn]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin: 

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

[shawn]

My point wasn't really to debate ED.  My point was to avoid demonizing those of us who believe the Bible more fully supports ED.

Although I think you are wrong I fully repect your opinion and posts.

And while in my mind UR makes more logical sense I'm not sure the Bible supports it.

And that leads to discussion/study. It's the only to test our views.
That is also (partly) the reason I asked LS to start this thread.

So if you sense agression and demonizin in my replies.... not intended.

No, even though I responded to your post I wasn't referring to you.

It was this quote that set me back a bit.

I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."

That would be me  Micah, and what suggests to you that people who profess that not all will be saved, that that it is not so? Any theolgy that imposes a punishment such as Eternal Damnation and Eternal Torment in and of it self is saying..."Im good and you are bad and you dont get the good stuff, you get the really bad stuff." The Gospel of Jesus Christ is He died for the sins of world, (mankind creation) and when you, mankind, are dragged (if need be) to the Truth you will be judged, be that now, while you have a space on the earth, or later at the resurrection. The Good News is you will be made ONE with the Father.

Thats Good News! Find the Good News in an eternal damnation or eternal torment, from a God WHO IS LOVE?

ED isn't eternal damnation it's eternal death big difference.  And it's not what I think...it's what God thinks.  I am not judge and jury but you seem to think that's my belief.  I have already stated I want everyone saved.  I am amongest the greatest of sinners.  I do not deserve heaven.  I judge no man.  But, I am looking at scripture and coming up with conclusion based on what I believe has been written.  So, to extrapolate my interpretation as something more sinister is insulting. 

[legoman]

Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.

"the fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us" - disagree here.  While I guess it depends what you mean by "hurt" - we go through trials by fire every day of our life.  And they certainly do "hurt" us in the sense that they change us and refine us.  Watch a loved one suffer through cancer for 10 years - it hurts, and it teaches you compassion, caring, patience, and understanding.

Burning unbelievers in physical fire is useless and purposeless.  But putting them through a spiritual lake of fire that is designed to teach them godly character - character traits like patience, kindness, love - that is a great thing.

Where's willieH when you need him - he firmly believes we are all in the lake of fire right now.  I'm undecided, but certainly we go through fire in this life and the lake of fire will provide the same effects.

[jabcat]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:  

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn.  Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up.  God made all, the just and the unjust.  Vessels of honor and dishonor.  He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".)  He says when he judges, it brings righteousness.  Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful.  It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this.  I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL).  So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan.  HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.

Which brings me to this;  As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you will believe.  When you're standing in the direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"  

God is Love.

[legoman]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin: 

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Hi Shawn,

If I may interject... it is a strange idea to say that some would reject God when confronted with the full weight of His love and power in their face.  Again think Saul/Paul - that is the model for every conversion.

Does God force people to repent?  The word force is interesting.  Love is a force.  Does my wife force me to love her?  Well her beauty, kindness, and good cooking sure is a force to deal with!

I'm not sure what you mean when you say those who endured pain in this life would be forced to endure pain in the next life... again that is not what UR proposes.

IMHO I see it like this.  God will show each one of us exactly what we need in order to willingly repent so we will learn godly character and come to Him.  Should be an easy job since He designed us and knows our innermost thoughts. 

Again I say: UR is not "torture Him until He loves God".  That is some strange hybrid ET beliefs that perhaps you are still stuck with (or not).  God is not in the business of torturing people.

[shawn]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:  

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn.  Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up.  God made all, the just and the unjust.  Vessels of honor and dishonor.  He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".)  He says when he judges, it brings righteousness.  Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful.  It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this.  I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL).  So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan.  HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.

Which brings me to this;  As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you will believe.  When you're standing in the direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"  

God is Love.

I have debated the UR side on this issue when I was feeling a bit froggy.   :bigGrin:  I stated that the Bible is merely telling us the end of the story.  He forces no one into salvation.  He just knows the ending.  And like you said, anyone presented with the true beauty and magnificance of the Lord will repent...even the most hardened of hearts.

With that said, where is the purgatory like Gehenna in all of that?  I don't see it.  If we stand before God and marvel, confess and worship (every knee shall bow...) then why the need for the lake of fire?

[shawn]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin: 

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Hi Shawn,

If I may interject... it is a strange idea to say that some would reject God when confronted with the full weight of His love and power in their face.  Again think Saul/Paul - that is the model for every conversion.

Does God force people to repent?  The word force is interesting.  Love is a force.  Does my wife force me to love her?  Well her beauty, kindness, and good cooking sure is a force to deal with!

I'm not sure what you mean when you say those who endured pain in this life would be forced to endure pain in the next life... again that is not what UR proposes.

IMHO I see it like this.  God will show each one of us exactly what we need in order to willingly repent so we will learn godly character and come to Him.  Should be an easy job since He designed us and knows our innermost thoughts. 

Again I say: UR is not "torture Him until He loves God".  That is some strange hybrid ET beliefs that perhaps you are still stuck with (or not).  God is not in the business of torturing people.

Do we not suffer here while on earth?  And UR proposes that nonbelievers will also suffer by the "fire" in the afterlife at least for a season...purification.  If the glory of God up close and personal brings about repentence...why the need for Gehenna? 

[jabcat]

I think you may have meant to quote one of my replies to "God forcing salvation"?  (Or maybe not.   :mshrug:)  

Anyway, I understood you to say you have a problem with that.  I was addressing my understanding that God sets the conditions for ALL of our salvation - either now, or later.  Thus the scriptures about God turning to disobedience/mercy on all, not of him that runs but Him that wills, etc.

If I didn't understand your point, please clarify...sometimes it's hard to get exactly what someone's intending by just looking at black and white print... :bigGrin:  

Speaking of which  :laugh: not all of that was "directed at" you - there were some random thoughts in there based on other(s) posts.   :mblush:

I certainly wasn't singling you out but yes I see UR as a sort of forcing repentance unless people are given an option out.  So God wills all to be saved but is it possible that some do not wish to be saved?  Why should they be forced to do so?  Why should individuals who had no choice in being born...was born into a life of slavery to sin...had to endure the pain of this life be forced to also endure pain after?  It's one of the main issues I have with UR.  It sounds great to those of us who love the Lord.  But, there are some who hate the Lord and might choose ED over heaven.

Thanks for the chance to reason through some things Shawn.  Let me share how I look at this piece you've brought up.  God made all, the just and the unjust.  Vessels of honor and dishonor.  He creates good and evil ("I the Lord do all these things".)  He says when he judges, it brings righteousness.  Also, that the end of the Lord is merciful.  It's not the best terminology, but I'll say it like this.  I see it as "God created all (turned all to disobedience/futility...) and He'll "fix" it all (...so that He may have mercy on ALL).  So as far as forced to do so, because the above sentence (scripture) is His plan.  HOWEVER, I actually never say God forces someone...I say He creates the conditions necessary for repentance - bringing us to the end of ourselves, which leaves a view of Him.

Which brings me to this;  As I've shared in so many words with my agnostic brother - "Bill, I believe you will believe.  When you're standing in the direct presence of the most beautiful, awesome Being you could ever behold, and you realize what you've missed - it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out to SomeOne Who is pure love, beauty, and has everything you could ever possibly need or want - and you finally realize it?"  

God is Love.

I have debated the UR side on this issue when I was feeling a bit froggy.   :bigGrin:  I stated that the Bible is merely telling us the end of the story.  He forces no one into salvation.  He just knows the ending.  And like you said, anyone presented with the true beauty and magnificance of the Lord will repent...even the most hardened of hearts.

With that said, where is the purgatory like Gehenna in all of that?  I don't see it.  If we stand before God and marvel, confess and worship (every knee shall bow...) then why the need for the lake of fire?

You said one time we were both searching.  Agreed.  That's one I've searched on, and for right now, am at this point;  I personally see the Lake of Fire as "standing in the direct presence of God" (our God is a Consuming Fire) - which NO ONE has ever done in this lifetime - we could not have that experience and live to tell about it.

That's where this line from my above post comes in - "it will be painful, you'll regret the things you've done [and not done] but how could you not reach out".  I believe there's spiritual, figurative language involved.  He may use literal fire in some instance(s) for some purpose, on things.  Father forgive me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe in the next age that an all sovereign God has to have literal fire to deal with spiritual matters.  

[thinktank]

Hello legoman there is some indication in the bible that the lake of fire could be some kind of fire.
The fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us, but changes us to his glory as we submit to him. But the lake of fire is something where people are thrown into by Gods anger/displease.

"the fire we now have from God doesn't hurt us" - disagree here.  While I guess it depends what you mean by "hurt" - we go through trials by fire every day of our life.  And they certainly do "hurt" us in the sense that they change us and refine us.  Watch a loved one suffer through cancer for 10 years - it hurts, and it teaches you compassion, caring, patience, and understanding.

I agree with you in that sense, that we have trials, tribulations etc. However you made a classic mistake to think that God gives cancer or sickness to a person to help us grow godly character. Sickness is an enemy and God came to give us health. However you probably didn't mean that I don't know, but I agree that we go through fiery trials as christians to grow and change which are painful. However these trials are brought by living the game of life, but what sense of living do those have in the lake of fire?

Perhaps there will be some kind of spiritual school in heaven, but the trouble is now we are going into unscriptural territory, for the verses say that the devil are cast in, the beast are cast in and they become tormented in that flame. I do wonder why the devil is tormented, and I will need to look at translations to find out the original language.




Burning unbelievers in physical fire is useless and purposeless.  But putting them through a spiritual lake of fire that is designed to teach them godly character - character traits like patience, kindness, love - that is a great thing.

I disagree, I think it gets rid of them as being unfit for life, that God made the universe to be for light and not for darkness, so anyone who is of darkness such as the devil and the beast (the antichrist} they are cast into the fire to be disposed of. Whos gonna complain that the devil is defeated?
Who will miss the antichrist?
Is the antichrist going to complain? How can he, hes not God and not in charge and he won't be in misery when hes destroyed, so where's the evil.

Where's willieH when you need him - he firmly believes we are all in the lake of fire right now.  I'm undecided, but certainly we go through fire in this life and the lake of fire will provide the same effects.

I don't think he'd be of much help, we are talking about the book of revelation and willie doesn't take that book seriously. I also belive we are going through a fire right now, but that fire is a fire of baptism. Jesus said I came to send fire upon the earth, what if I be kindled. But the lake of fire at the great white throne happens after the first earth and heaven pass away and there is no more room for them.
Heaven and earth shall pass away but my word shall never pass.


I don't see why Jesus cannot save all of man without throwing them into the lake of fire, the scripture is conclusive that the antichrist will be thrown in and the false prophet and the devil, but what is the false prophet, im not even sure if the false prophet is a man, it could be a nation, or some kind of robot, system.

This might be of interest, my first introduction to UR was this great booklet I read and it one of the best books I have ever read, in that book it had this idea.

Jesus said at his last prayer none of them is lost except the son of perdition, this is so that scriptures might be fullfiled.

Now in scriptural context he was talking about his disciples, but what if he meant all mankind, except that one man the son of perdition. Now the scriptures do say that one of the name of the antichrist is the son of perdition.

That's what this booklet taught and it does make some sense. Something to ponder on.