Eternal Destruction

[LS]

I sometimes see people on this board wonder how anyone could believe in eternal destruction, and I see others who are prayerfully considering universal salvation but have not been lead to a firm belief one way or another. So I thought I would simply show you scripturally why I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed. 

First, scriptures that are explicit in saying that some are destroyed, perish, or "are no more."

(Note: In this first, Paul is literally in tears ... if he believed all are saved, why would he be in such distress?)

Php 3:18  For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19  Their end is destruction.

2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,     
2Th 1:10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.

2Pe 2:12  But these people, like irrational animals born by nature for capture and destruction, revile things that they do not understand, and in their destruction they will also be destroyed,
2Pe 2:13  suffering wrong as payment for wrongdoing

Heb 10:39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

Act 13:40 "Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:   
Act 13:41 'BEHOLD, YOU SCOFFERS, AND MARVEL, AND PERISH;
         FOR I AM ACCOMPLISHING A WORK IN YOUR DAYS,
         A WORK WHICH YOU WILL NEVER BELIEVE, THOUGH SOMEONE SHOULD DESCRIBE IT TO YOU.'"

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Sir 15:14  When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15  If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16  There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17  Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

2Ma 7:14  When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."

Psa 5:6 You destroy those who speak falsehood;
         The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.

Psalms 37:20 "The enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away."

Psalms 37:38 "But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psa 73:27  But those who are far from you perish; you destroy those unfaithful to you.

Psalms 145:20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the Lord shall be consumed.

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.
Endless ruin has overtaken the enemy,
you have uprooted their cities;
even the memory of them has perished.

Psalms 92: 7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:

Proverbs 10:29 The way of the Lord is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

Proverbs 13:13 Whoso despiseth the word shall be destroyed: but he that feareth the commandment shall be rewarded.

Psalms 101:8 I will early destroy all the wicked of the land; that I may cut off all wicked doers from the city of the Lord.

Psalms 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

Psalms 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more.

Obadiah 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
36 Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.

Psa 37:38 But transgressors will be altogether destroyed;
         The posterity of the wicked will be cut off.

Proverbs 6:12-15
12 A scoundrel and villain,
       who goes about with a corrupt mouth,
13 who winks with his eye,
       signals with his feet
       and motions with his fingers,
14 who plots evil with deceit in his heart—
       he always stirs up dissension.
15 Therefore disaster will overtake him in an instant;
       he will suddenly be destroyed—without remedy.

Psa 28:5  They pay no heed to the LORD'S works, to the deeds of God's hands. God will tear them down, never to be rebuilt.

Rev 20:14  Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15  Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

Rev 21:8  But as for cowards, the unfaithful, the depraved, murderers, the unchaste, sorcerers, idol-worshipers, and deceivers of every sort, their lot is in the burning pool of fire and sulfur, which is the second death.

[LS]

These passages are not as direct about destruction itself, but I think that each one of them indicates that not "all" are saved.

1 Chron 28
9 "And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
10 Consider now, for the LORD has chosen you to build a temple as a sanctuary. Be strong and do the work."

Jas 1:13 No one experiencing temptation should say, I am being tempted by God; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 Rather, each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire conceives and brings forth sin, and when sin reaches maturity it gives birth to death.

Jas 5:19 My brothers, if anyone among you should stray from the truth and someone bring him back,
Jas 5:20 he should know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

1Jn 5:16 If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray.
1Jn 5:17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels has he ever said: Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?

Heb 2:2 For if the word announced through angels proved firm, and every transgression and disobedience received its just recompense,
Heb 2:3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? Announced originally through the Lord, it was confirmed for us by those who had heard.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting that he, for whom and through whom all things exist, in bringing many children to glory, should make the leader to their salvation perfect through suffering.

Heb 5:9 and when he was made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him

Job 20:4 Do you not know this from olden time, since man was placed upon the earth,
Job 20:5 That the triumph of the wicked is short and the joy of the impious but for a moment?
Job 20:6 Though his pride mount up to the heavens and his head reach to the clouds,
Job 20:7 Yet he perishes forever like the fuel of his fire, and the onlookers say, Where is he?
Job 20:8 Like a dream he takes flight and is not found again; he fades away like a vision of the night.
Job 20:9 The eye which saw him does so no more; nor shall his dwelling again behold him.

Dan 12:1 At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book.
Dan 12:2 Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake; some shall live forever, others shall be an everlasting horror and disgrace.

Jud 1:5 I wish to remind you, although you know all things, that (the) Lord who once saved a people from the land of Egypt later destroyed those who did not believe.
Jud 1:6 The angels too, who did not keep to their own domain but deserted their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains, in gloom, for the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 just as (Sodom and Gomorrah and the (cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

[LS]

Going back to the lake of fire in Revelation ...

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
Rev 20:15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire.

1 Corinthians 15:26 tells us that "The last enemy to be destroyed is death."

If that takes place in this passage of Revelation - where death and hades are thrown into the lake of fire - then those in verse 15 must also be destroyed, "Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life."

"The book of life" is also mentioned here:
Php 4:3 Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

Also, "the book" (although not specifically the book of life) is mentioned in quite a few OT passages. Here are only a few, but often it is used in narrations where names are "written in" or "blotted out."

Dan 12:1 At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people; It shall be a time unsurpassed in distress since nations began until that time. At that time your people shall escape, everyone who is found written in the book.

Psa 69:28 Strike them from the book of the living; do not count them among the just!

[jabcat]

I'm not going to attempt to tackle all of this in detail.  Others will join in.  I'll just present these thoughts as sort of prompts while looking at LS' posts more closely.

I believe, almost without exception, that threatenings in the Old Testament were of a temporal, earthly nature - not having to do with eternal destiny.  

Things described as "eternal" in the Old Testament, at least often seem to be talking in terms of "until it had served its purpose".  The "eternal" fire burning at the altar, is no longer burning.  The "eternal" fire at the gate of Jerusalem is no longer burning.  Jonah was in the belly of the whale "forever", etc.

Destroyed is from apollumi.  There are whole studies on that, but basically that things can be lost, destroyed, but there still be redemption.  Things not of God destroyed, yet the man "saved as by fire".  Maybe some such as Hitler won't have much if anything left, other than the spirit God gave them - which returns to God upon death. (See WW's thread about the lost sheep and lost coin - it's the same word - apollumi.)  

Accurate translation is also vital.  Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc.  (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".)   :dontknow:

Some things to consider just as a piece of the whole.  James.

[micah7:9]

Jabcat I agree totally in what you said.
I will only add this, it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay." They will say that God is Love but just cant get past, in their belief, that that Love also includes a punishment far greater than the human mind can comprhend upon another human being doing to another human being. They truly forget that God FORGIVES and that HE is the POTTER, not the DESTROYER People who accept the teaching of an eternal hell of torment cannot possibly have known the LOVE OF GOD nor do they
know the LOVE OF GOD as they will call eternal torment punishment justified and good.
Theology and its seminarys have, well there I go....I believe Jehovah is very much in the front of all our actions...
Isa 45:7  Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'
Peace and Love Through Jesus

[jabcat]

Eternal Death (Conditional Mortality, Annihilation):  One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
By Gary Amirault


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

[WhiteWings]

I've sharpened my  :swordfight: and cleaned my  :Shoot:. Let go!
Just kidding. Thanks for taking the time to put this together :thumbsup:
I'll answer in parts. Just the things I can answer. I have no illusion I'l able to refute them all. But still I'l give it a honest attempt.  :winkgrin:

I sometimes see people on this board wonder how anyone could believe in eternal destruction, and I see others who are prayerfully considering universal salvation but have not been lead to a firm belief one way or another. So I thought I would simply show you scripturally why I believe that not all are saved, and those who are not will be destroyed.

First, scriptures that are explicit in saying that some are destroyed, perish, or "are no more."

(Note: In this first, Paul is literally in tears ... if he believed all are saved, why would he be in such distress?)

I think it's twofold. The correction of Father can be hash so Paul felt sorry for those people. Just as parents don't enjoy slapping a kid on the b*tt to discipline them.
Secondly I think Paul was sad humanity does so much evil against/in the name of God.

Php 3:18  For many, as I have often told you and now tell you even in tears, conduct themselves as enemies of the cross of Christ.
Php 3:19  Their end is destruction.

Clear. But what exactly is destruction? See the thread about the lost coin/son/sheep. All destroyed but still a happy end for all of them.

2Th 1:9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Eternal=age-during. Weird... For me that can only mean a few thing's:
a] Destruction is not what you believe it is. -> Like sin (=tars) is destroyed but not the sinner (wheat)
b] Complete destruction but not permanent. -> Sodom was set as an example but is promised to be restored.
c] Combination of the two above.

God used a word (destruction) that sounds warning, firm and angry. But why 'soften the blow' by adding a limiter (age) in the same verse?

Eze 18:4  Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

All have sinned...
In Adam all die...
ED for all?

Sir 15:14  When God, in the beginning, created man, he made him subject to his own free choice.
Sir 15:15  If you choose you can keep the commandments; it is loyalty to do his will.
Sir 15:16  There are set before you fire and water; to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand.
Sir 15:17  Before man are life and death, whichever he chooses shall be given him.

Sir? What book is that?

2Ma 7:14  When he was near death, he said, "It is my choice to die at the hands of men with the God-given hope of being restored to life by him; but for you, there will be no resurrection to life."

I think that "only" means be part of the first (fruit) resurrection. Be part of the Son's millenium Kingdom.

Psalms 37:10 "For yet a little while, and the wicked shall be no more."

^KJVLam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:
Arent those cast (off) into LoF for ED cast of for ever?

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
^YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

ever=ad
Anyone?

[WhiteWings]

Accurate translation is also vital.  Some translations are hopelessly confusing with their uses of forever, ever, eternal, hell, etc.  (I don't know that I've ever seen "pool of fire".)   :dontknow:

Pool here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=6864.0

[micah7:9]

Are you up White Wings, I have troubles big time, if you are can we talk?

[micah7:9]

I am sitting up waiting on word that my son may have died in a gold mine accident in Elko Nevada. Only two men have not been acounted for and my son is one. Ive been estranged from him for over 30 years, we have met and he has five wonderful grandchildren, No one has said yet that he is dead. His mother and one of his sisters is there I am letting the Lord keep me.

[WhiteWings]

Are you up White Wings, I have troubles big time, if you are can we talk?

I'm up. The day just started where I live (8:40 am) I'm at office doing all sort of things beside work  :laughing7:

[WhiteWings]

What can I say Micah... when there is hope there is life.
Many miners have be found days after they got trapped.
I know of one event that it was 1 or 2 full weeks. Little to no food but they drank water that dripped in the mine.
So don't give up yet. There is still hope. Even if it doesn't feel like that at all.

[jabcat]

Amen.  Hope and trust.

[micah7:9]

Thank you, I have only the knowledge that God is Love, I just have not figured out how He administers it so that I can understand it.

[Molly]

Praying for you and for your son, Micah...

[WhiteWings]

LS,

This post goes a little off-topic for a reason. Then it ends on-topic again.

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
^YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

ever=ad
Anyone?

^KJVGen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.



^KJVPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

That's weird the same word has 2 different Strong numbers. And very different meanings although the note in Strong say it's similar
The reason I quotes from YLT was to prove all those ever verses are about age; so refute ED.
But then I read "age and ever" very odd. "Even to the age" would make more sense.
But if I look H5703 and especially it's root H5710 the verse seems to say:

^WWPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name until the end of the age.


If we don't know the meaning of words how can we understand the verse....

[LS]

it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."

Micah, I assure you - nothing could be further from the truth.  I am a commited believer in non-violence; pro-life from conception to natural death, and I have no desire to make anyone "pay."

I simply believe that any person, no matter how uneducated, can hear the word read and understand, without all of the dictionaries and lexicons and study tools we have today.  I also believe that the writers of the Bible were easily as able to express "in the end all are saved" in plain language, as they expressed that some are destroyed in the examples I posted.

I mentioned in another thread that for me, there are at most 3 passages that give me pause in regards to universal salvation.  And then there are all of these that I posted, that I believe indicate the wicked are destroyed.

We can reason that God is Love and "wouldn't destroy them"   But let's be honest here - how many of us would have done anything the way that God did it? OT or NT - isn't there an awful lot that we would never have thought to do, and don't really understand now?   

And yet we TRUST and have FAITH that He is God, His ways are not our ways, that some day we will understand, and we choose to follow Him.

That is where I am, in my walk now.  I am simply accepting what I see the Bible saying.  I know you all do the same, and I have no quarrel with those who believe differently.  I didn't post this to argue or to beat anybody up, but I hope that as you study these and come to your own conclusions, you also don't make broad assumptions about me or why "I" see destruction.

In Peace   :cloud9:

[LS]

Oh dear Micah - I hadn't read entirely through the thread.  I am praying for you and your beloved son. My heart goes out to you as you wait.   :grouppray:

[LS]

LS,

This post goes a little off-topic for a reason. Then it ends on-topic again.

Psalm 9:5-6
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

This seems to be one of the very few time YLT uses for ever instead of age.
^YLTPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked nations, Thou hast destroyed the wicked, Their name Thou hast blotted out to the age and for ever.

ever=ad
Anyone?

^KJVGen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

H5704
עד
‛ad
ad
Properly the same as H5703 (used as a preposition, adverb or conjugation; especially with a preposition); as far (or long, or much) as, whether of space (even unto) or time (during, while, until) or degree (equally with): - against, and, as, at, before, by (that), even (to), for (-asmuch as), [hither-] to, + how long, into, as long (much) as, (so) that, till, toward, until, when, while, (+ as) yet.



^KJVPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

H5703
עד
‛ad
ad
From H5710; properly a (peremptory) terminus, that is, (by implication) duration, in the sense of perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition): - eternity, ever (-lasting, -more), old, perpetually, + world without end.

H5710
עדה
‛âdâh
aw-daw'
A primitive root; to advance, that is, pass on or continue; causatively to remove; specifically to bedeck (that is, bring an ornament upon): - adorn, deck (self), pass by, take away.

That's weird the same word has 2 different Strong numbers. And very different meanings although the note in Strong say it's similar
The reason I quotes from YLT was to prove all those ever verses are about age; so refute ED.
But then I read "age and ever" very odd. "Even to the age" would make more sense.
But if I look H5703 and especially it's root H5710 the verse seems to say:

^WWPsa 9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name until the end of the age.


If we don't know the meaning of words how can we understand the verse....

Hi WhiteWings - that particular passage in Psalms uses two different words for each "ever"  (for ever and ever), as you noted.  I note how you chose the definitions that most fit what you already believe; you could just as easily have chosen "perpetuity, eternity, ever."  How do you determine which to use?  Not asking as an attack - it's just something I see over and over; I know many people here distrust translations as tainted, but I tend to think that most translations are honest renderings from people with a lot more knowledge of proper usage and customs than I have.

Also, to you & Jabcat, there probably are several Bible versions used in the passages I posted; as I read and study I drop different passages into a file, but I read and study out of different Bibles.  Some of those are probably NASB, many of them would be NAB which is the Catholic bible.   "Sir" is the book of Sirach from the Catholic Bible, and I think there is a passage I quoted from Maccabees, which is also in the Catholic bible.  There are other passages in those books that would apply to this topic, but I know not everyone accepts those as sacred scripture, as I do.  I assume each is able to accept or dismiss them from their own discernment, so I included a few.

[WhiteWings]

Hi WhiteWings - that particular passage in Psalms uses two different words for each "ever"  (for ever and ever), as you noted.  I note how you chose the definitions that most fit what you already believe; you could just as easily have chosen "perpetuity, eternity, ever."  How do you determine which to use?  Not asking as an attack - it's just something I see over and over;

Three fold answer:
1.
I can chose between H5703 and H5704. A 50-50 change I'm right.
The above word orginates from H5710. And that defention edges much more to UR
So my change to be right simply is better that yours. Just speaking about this single verse.
But I didn't like. That's why I put an effort in it to discuss it.

2.
Logic.
For the age and ever. Lets say an age is 5 years.
So Father judges some: I sentence you to eternal destruction. Erm, and 5 year extra!

3.
Commentaries and views.
The vast majority of church fathers was UR. Few possibly leaned to ED. And none or 1 to ET.
Jews, the guys who read Hebrew  :winkgrin: , see a clear UR message in OT. AFAIK it's agreed on by the very orthodox to the more liberal ones.

So that combined determins my choice. But no doctrine is based in one verse. So for me it's statistics. Stacking the odds in my favor.
Let's say the above verse is 75% in favor of UR. I mentally collect such stats for everything I read. Combined=my opinion
I don't rule out ED. It's just that it's chances are bad. Someting like: 70%-UR, 15%-ED and 5%-ET (and then I'm generous to the ET camp)

I know many people here distrust translations as tainted, but I tend to think that most translations are honest renderings from people with a lot more knowledge of proper usage and customs than I have.

That's also easy to anwer. The the early translators had no clue about the meaning of many Greek words they where translating.
Not to mention Augustine who what less skilled in Greek that the average young Greek child.

A quote from this thread

The New Contract Writings ("New Testament") were written in the
Greek language. However it wasn't the Classical Greek of Aristotle;
rather, they were written in Koine ("Coin-A" or everyday) Greek, which
was the everyday language used by almost everyone during the First
Century A.D. in conversation and commerce throughout the Roman
Empire. Our Savior talked plainly to people, the way we would talk to
one another. Therefore, plain everyday English has been used in this
Bible to properly translate the everyday Greek that the writers used,
instead of using the religious and theological terms found in the other
Bible translations, which distort the original meaning.
The translators of the King James Version (KJV) were unaware of
the differences between Koine Greek and Classical Greek. The relevant
manuscripts had not yet been discovered. As late as 1886 Joseph Henry
Thayer could still list 767 distinctively "New Testament" words with no
known parallels in any known Greek literature. But now, because of
recent discoveries and research over the past 100 years, well over 99%
of the words of the New Contract Writings have been found in other
Greek literature. Moreover, in 1611 the KJV translators followed the
syntax of Classical Greek; but we now know that the Greek of the New
Contract Writings corresponds syntactically to Koine Greek. This makes
a tremendous difference in how many words and phrases are translated.
Until 1895 the language of the New Contract Writings was known
as "Tired Greek," "Bad Greek," "Jewish Greek," "Biblical Greek," "New
Testament Greek," or "Holy Ghost language," because it was different
from Classical Greek. But in 1895 (284 years after the KJV was first
published) the Greek and Bible Scholar Adolf Deissmann discovered
that the New Contract Writings were written in Koine (everyday) Greek.While studying some recently discovered collections of nonliterary
documents, he suddenly recognized a great similarity between what he
was reading there and what he was accustomed to reading in the
Greek New Contract Writings. These nonliterary documents that he was
studying were many different types of legal documents, business letters,
personal letters, love letters, diaries, horoscopes, magic formulas, etc.
However, even though almost a century has passed since this universally
accepted great discovery, not until now has a translation into true
everyday English been accomplished.

[WhiteWings]

Also, to you & Jabcat, there probably are several Bible versions used in the passages I posted; as I read and study I drop different passages into a file, but I read and study out of different Bibles.  Some of those are probably NASB, many of them would be NAB which is the Catholic bible.   "Sir" is the book of Sirach from the Catholic Bible, and I think there is a passage I quoted from Maccabees, which is also in the Catholic bible.  There are other passages in those books that would apply to this topic, but I know not everyone accepts those as sacred scripture, as I do.  I assume each is able to accept or dismiss them from their own discernment, so I included a few.

Yeah I figure out Sir=Sirah.

Not much to say about it besides I don't like such books. Mainly because Strong is not linked to them (in my software) So it's getting hard to check word meanings.
And for me; no word meanings means impossible to study....  :happygrin:

[WhiteWings]

it seems to me those who are "hell bent" in their thinking also carry a heavy weight of "somebodys gotta pay."

Micah, I assure you - nothing could be further from the truth.

Listen up you two!!!  :laughing7:

The bill has been payed nearly 2000 years ago (or even at the foundation of the world)  :thumbsup:

[LS]

Yeah I figure out Sir=Sirah.

Not much to say about it besides I don't like such books. Mainly because Strong is not linked to them (in my software) So it's getting hard to check word meanings.
And for me; no word meanings means impossible to study....  :happygrin:

I hear you!  I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.  I did find an online link that might help you somewhat; it's at home and I'll send it later if you'd like.

[WhiteWings]

I hear you!  I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.

Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)

Personally I use www.bibleworks.com

Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.

[LS]

I hear you!  I wish I had all those books with study tools like Strong's.

Problem solved for free: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8380.0
It's all a matter of taste. All are fine. e-sword has the most resources (AFAIK)
I greatly prefer programs but many on this forum use sites like Blue letter Bible.
If you can't choose try e-Sword or The Word
While they have great overlap in functionality they are also complementary (sp?)

Personally I use www.bibleworks.com

Just choose one and if you have problems... ask.

I mean, I wish I had some of those for the deuterocanonical books like Sirach, Wisdom, Macabees.

I have eSword and I use it all the time - I have the NAB module but it doesn't have a Strong's type translator associated with it; it's just the text.

Your link is AWESOME and I'll be poking around there too!