Who is satan?

[Lefein]

The whence this from the beginning he was a man-slayer and liar? Where was this beginning?
Deuteronomy 31:27  He's talking about Israel here is He not?

The beginning?  I don't know, all I know is that at some point in the beginning of time, creation, or what ever...The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer, which was most likely I believe, due to his hatred.

As for Deuteronomy, yes, he is talking about Israel.  But that isn't an exclusive statement; it shows it is possible to rebel against God, even as his chosen people no less who saw him as a pillar of fire leading them in the night, and rescued them from Egypt, saw his wonders, his plagues, his majesty, his glory, felt his presence, and beheld the Ark his throne.  They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really.

Edit: Don't forget to check Thinktank's reply before mine. ^^

[Molly]

Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[micah7:9]

The whence this from the beginning he was a man-slayer and liar? Where was this beginning?
Deuteronomy 31:27  He's talking about Israel here is He not?

The beginning?  I don't know, all I know is that at some point in the beginning of time, creation, or what ever...The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer, which was most likely I believe, due to his hatred.

As for Deuteronomy, yes, he is talking about Israel.  But that isn't an exclusive statement; it shows it is possible to rebel against God, even as his chosen people no less who saw him as a pillar of fire leading them in the night, and rescued them from Egypt, saw his wonders, his plagues, his majesty, his glory, felt his presence, and beheld the Ark his throne.  They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really.

Edit: Don't forget to check Thinktank's reply before mine. ^^

But if "The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer," my question is who was he murdered it since we have the record of Gen. 2:7
as being the first living soul?


" They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really."  NOW I think you got ahold of a generating thought. He could have been talking to me as well (regarding Deut.)

[micah7:9]

Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

[Lefein]

The word used for "the beginning" in the New Testament is most often "arches":

"APXHC"

Which is translated in the ISA2 originals as;

Original - beginning
Original - Sovereignty

Ephesian 1:21

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

Huperano pases arches kai exousias kai dunameos kai kuriotetos kai pantos onamatos onamazomenou ou monon en to aioni touto alla kai en to mellonti.

Over-up[up-over] of-every[every] original[sovereignty-KJV: principality] and authority and ability[power-KJV: dominion] and masterdom[lordship] and every name being-named not only in the eon this (this eon) but and[also] in eon the being-about[one-impending] (also in the impending eon)

John 8:44

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from original(beginning) and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

___

Out of curiousity, I have translated Arches-Beginning into Arches-Sovereingty/Principality in this next verse rendering, not particularly important, but it might be interesting to see for someone if they wish to see it.

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from sovereignty-principality, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from sovereignty and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

___

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from (Original), and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from (Original) and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

________

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

When he hated him.

[Molly]

Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve.  He knew he couldn't deceive Adam which is why we see him talking to Eve.  He murdered Adam through Eve.

I consider Adam the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world--but nobody else agrees with me.  Yet, the beginning of the world under Satan's rule happens with the casting out of Adam from the garden.  Scene 2:  Cain murders his brother.

[micah7:9]

"He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve." 
You mean the Lord God allowed Adam to be put in a situation by the adversary so Adam would have to choose between God and Eve, and when Adam choose Eve thats how the adversary murdered Adam?

"He knew he couldn't deceive Adam which is why we see him talking to Eve.  He murdered Adam through Eve."
Why couldnt the adversary decieve Adam?
And why was Eve so easy to turn?

My understanding of murder is more a taking of a life, a man-slayer. Adam "dying thou dost die." He was in the process.
Now Cain, he murdered someone and then Cain lied, thats pretty well documented.

[WhiteWings]

"He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve." 
You mean the Lord God allowed Adam to be put in a situation by the adversary so Adam would have to choose between God and Eve, and when Adam choose Eve thats how the adversary murdered Adam?

That sounds almost Jesus like.
Adam willingly laid down his own life because of his love for Eve....

[Lefein]

It does sound sweet, and romantic.  My only misgiving is that Adam blamed Eve when God confronted them.

"The woman you gave me..."

At least, it comes across as blame anyway.

[Molly]

It does sound sweet, and romantic.  My only misgiving is that Adam blamed Eve when God confronted them.

"The woman you gave me..."

At least, it comes across as blame anyway.

That was after the fall and after their eyes had been 'opened.'

BTW, he actually was blaming God lol.  God gave him the woman.

[Lefein]

Well, I suppose that makes sense. lol.

The thought did occur to me one day (pre-UR)

"...Would I have gone with Eve out of the garden?"
"...What if Adam knew what Eve had done...and wanted to be with his mate..."

[micah7:9]

Is this taught somewhere?

[Molly]

Is this taught somewhere?

No.  Just here--

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


and here--

...Adam.... who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:14

[micah7:9]

You are saying that that teaching is Tentmaker teaching?

[Lefein]

Does it have to be specifically Tentmaker teaching?

[Molly]

You are saying that that teaching is Tentmaker teaching?

No lol

I'm saying the 'teaching' is in the Bible--depending on how you read those verses.  You note it says Adam was not deceived and that he was the figure of Christ.

[micah7:9]

I dont really accept that thought that its a Bible teaching. But thanks for your thoughts, and I think you are reading "into" Rom.5:14

[Molly]

I dont really accept that thought that its a Bible teaching. But thanks for your thoughts, and I think you are reading "into" Rom.5:14

That's fine.  You're the one who brought up the idea of a 'teaching' not me.

But I remember you saying--how do you know that Adam was not deceived?  That's how.  It's in the scripture.

Also it does say there that Adam is the figure of Christ--if you consider 'the one to come' as being Christ.

[micah7:9]

I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

[thinktank]

I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

Because whether one likes it or not the scriptures are interconnected. What happened in the garden is connected to the being called the serpent, if we have a better understanding of the garden we can understand the serpent better and his role.

[thinktank]

Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

Two points, I'd like to make. One is, that Cain murdered Abel and this is the first bloody murder. So the question is did this happen in the begining? This murder took place in Genesis, the first book of the bible the 'beginning of the bible'.

The second thing is that the other murder the devil did is spiritual murder, by killing Adam. How did he do this?



John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here we have the witness of murder, conected with the witness of him being also a liar. In the garden the serpent lied to Eve and said you shall not surely die. So in effect he murdered Eve by convincing her to eat 'poisonous' food or to be more exact convincing her that this food, will make her wise and that she will not die and that God is the real liar.

[micah7:9]

You really think "he" convinced her? I have read many answers and a good many "seem" to give alot more power to a defeated adversary and grant the adversary more sway than I do;   Rather than all power to the God and Creator and His Plan and Purpose.
I dont know, I find that much of the stuff that has been proposed here is...... well i dont know.
Anyway my queery was who/what and just trying to find out more of the identity of the adversary, not the retelling of the Genesis story or what are angels.
I have been on this site for sometime now, perhaps to long, for Im beginning to feel dominated by some opinon answers and almost intimidated by others. Maybe some of you bro. and sis. feel the same about me.
But then again its probably just me, and Im not mature enough to be in some these discussions,
and not really equiped with enough knowledge to enter a post.  I perhaps need to restudy and pray more along with an absence from the forum. Ive enjoyed a good many posts and I can only hope I am not leaving with to many ill words or thoughts.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.

[thinktank]

You really think "he" convinced her? I have read many answers and a good many "seem" to give alot more power to a defeated adversary and grant the adversary more sway than I do;   Rather than all power to the God and Creator and His Plan and Purpose.
I dont know, I find that much of the stuff that has been proposed here is...... well i dont know.
Anyway my queery was who/what and just trying to find out more of the identity of the adversary, not the retelling of the Genesis story or what are angels.
I have been on this site for sometime now, perhaps to long, for Im beginning to feel dominated by some opinon answers and almost intimidated by others. Maybe some of you bro. and sis. feel the same about me.
But then again its probably just me, and Im not mature enough to be in some these discussions,
and not really equiped with enough knowledge to enter a post.  I perhaps need to restudy and pray more along with an absence from the forum. Ive enjoyed a good many posts and I can only hope I am not leaving with to many ill words or thoughts.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.

Yes I believe he did convince her, by mincing Gods words and confusing her. But the important thing about Genesis is that God allowed this testing to take place, just as God tests us with temptations. However unlike Adam who is simultude to Jesus who was also without sin but who failed the temptations but Jesus passed the temptations because he is the lord from heaven, and according to Jesus only God is good.

job4
17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? 18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: 19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

1 Corinthians 15:47   
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Mark 10:18   
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

I'm sorry if you feel dominated, I do post here a lot, perhaps too much. My intention is to show you the scriptures and how it applies to your questions, I don't claim to have all the answers, there is so much to learn from the scriptures and from life that even a baby can teach an apostle, timothy for example taught Paul how to love more, for life is gigantic, diverse, full of minds that see things from different perspectives, but we still live in a orderly world where truth is available and I'm not calling you a baby, neither am I an apostle, but simply a man trying after the lords heart.

I encourage you to pray and study , particularly if you feel that you must, God bless.

[Lefein]

As a wise man once said;

"Let us reason together"

Conversation, and reasoning together is one of the vertebrae in the backbone of fellowship.

[eaglesway]

I have a need to study just who the adversay is. I do not see that the opponent is a being. I know that
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
So with that information I must reason that what Im looking into is a thing.
Thing=any matter,circumstance, affair, or concern;often used in plural
Ive posted this again hoping that some will stay on the subject with out wandering to and fro

This may be relying pretty heavily on English. "Pas", all- simply "all", is translated as "all men", "every man", and numerous other examples, depending on context. In addition, since you and I are among the "pas" being reconciled and the "pas en pas"(all in all) that God will fill- as well as the "pas" that is from Him through Him and to Him- there is no reasonable imperative to consider satan a "thing", as opposed to a "being", in those verses, IMO. Also, what "thing" needs reconciliation? The need for reconciliation involves a violation, and the import of the work of "the blood of His cross" is the reconciliation of adversaries, "among whom we also once walked"...

  And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
(Col 1:21-22)
the continuation of the thought in the verses you chose lends some weight to my point I think.