Tentmaker Forum

I have a need to study just who the adversay is. I do not see that the opponent is a being. I know that
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
So with that information I must reason that what Im looking into is a thing.
Thing=any matter,circumstance, affair, or concern;often used in plural
Ive posted this again hoping that some will stay on the subject with out wandering to and fro.

APOC the original post  "A sermon at church today prompted a random thought of mine.  Pastor asked what things might we find hard to believe and why, because he was teaching about Thomas' request to see Christ's hands.  I thought about all the observations of Christ, his disciples, angels, miracles and then about the very limited siting of Satan.  I thought, why don't we know more about Satan and who has seen him? 

I'm interested in what studies and conclusions others have made.  Who was Satan, where was he and where is he now?  I can only think of one New Testament siting/depiction. From what I can tell, only Jesus has seen him and conversed in length.  For some reason there are many sermons today about this evil being and yet very little experiences to draw from.


Quote
Matthew 4:1-11 (New International Version)
The Temptation of Jesus

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "

Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written:
   " 'He will command his angels concerning you,
      and they will lift you up in their hands,
   so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "  Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him."

I thought, why don't we know more about Satan and who has seen him? 
micah

:laughing7:  I don't blame you, even God had the same question


Job 1:7   

And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

I know that God, knows where he is but I belive God is showing us, that if he had to ask this question, how can man possibly know his location.

He even asked him again in the same book, to confirm how slippery he was/is

Job 2:2   
And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

I think God asks rhetorically just to make himself giggle at times.  :laughing7:

Just like Punch and Judy.    :declare:

Que?

"I thought, why don't we know more about Satan and who has seen him? 
micah"

I think we all have Thinktank.

And I dont believe the adversary has changed his MO.

a] Satan is a man -> No man has ever seen God so Satan can't be a man because in he presented himself before God in Job.
b] Satan is the carnal thought of man -> It was mentioned in strong words Father was very pleased with Job; so I think it's very unlikely satan in the next few verses is Job requesting that he can tempt/strike himself
c] Satan is a spirit

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2010, 10:57:15 AM
a] Satan is a man -> No man has ever seen God so Satan can't be a man because in he presented himself before God in Job.
b] Satan is the carnal thought of man -> It was mentioned in strong words Father was very pleased with Job; so I think it's very unlikely satan in the next few verses is Job requesting that he can tempt/strike himself
c] Satan is a spirit

a] I believe that is correct, satan/adversary is not a man.
b] Satan is the carnal thought of man...WW I have reason to begin to understand the adversary better as you have stated.."carnal thought" not the carnal mind, Jesus did not have/could not have a carnal mind, but the carnal thought certainly must have brought itself forward.
c] I keep the thought that the adversary is a "thing," yet I cannot exclude reason that the adversary is a spirit.

Keeping the identity of the adversary in mind, when was "the beginning?"

Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.

It is not a trick question, I, myself, do not see it to be Genesis 1:1 this beginning of the devil. At this point I do not accept the "katabolē" line of thought.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 03:09:57 PM
b] Satan is the carnal thought of man...WW I have reason to begin to understand the adversary better as you have stated.."carnal thought" not the carnal mind, Jesus did not have/could not have a carnal mind, but the carnal thought certainly must have brought itself forward.

For me a carnal thought come from a carnal mind. But I'm aware that statement  is problematic.
Father has no carnal mind. But OTOH I don't think I can outclass Father on any point. He smart enough to have thoughts like me so to speak.
I can't really write down the essence of what I think so try to understand what I'm trying to say instead of over analyzing my words.
I think the problem is not really having a carnal thought but acting to it.
Jesus surely knew what rape and murder is/was. Very likely it was in His prayers. So the idea was really in His head. But He never put those thoughts into practice.
Similar to Father who commanded "Thou shalt not murder." I'm sure enough Father knows all ways of murder that exist. But that doesn't mean He practices all, or even just one, of those murders.
Understand what I mean?

Quotec] I keep the thought that the adversary is a "thing," yet I cannot exclude reason that the adversary is a spirit.

Spirit, entity, ghost, energy cloud, ...
Whatever it is it's very special because it's omni present like God....?
Maybe it's not the 100% correct but because earth is filled with 6.5 billion small and big sinners satan affects many at the same time.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 03:18:42 PM
Keeping the identity of the adversary in mind, when was "the beginning?"

Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.

It is not a trick question, I, myself, do not see it to be Genesis 1:1 this beginning of the devil. At this point I do not accept the "katabolē" line of thought.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

"From the beginning" is useless info in the context of this thread. It simply doesn't give enough info.
Just some views to think about. (not all my views)
a] Satan was created at exactly Gen 1:1. But how can he be a murderer if there is nothing to kill?
b] Satan lived long before Gen 1:1 and knew creation would happen and plotted the destruction of mankind long before Gen 1:1.
c] It was the mind of Adam that was plotting imperfect things from his birth.
d] Likely "the beginning" is Gen 1:1 but the beginning can also be birth. My personal beginning was not at Gen 1:1
e] etc

Good thoughts.
I kind of believe that when a living soul awakens(Gen. 2:22) man sees things differently than in(Gen.2:20) man is accutely aware of a "new" sense, and that is revealed in(Gen.3:6) the knowledge of good and evil, an ingniting happens, that ignition causes an act of reason and choice, and the truth, the mind of man is carnal the choice is made. Jesus was in the likeness of sinfull flesh but His mind was not carnal, thus He would not could not fall into the thoughts. And when we have the mind of Christ, we as well cannot fall into the thoughts [the thoughts do come around, like the fowls of the air.]

I cant put it into words properly either, but I suggest that it is this igniting and ignition, is the adversary.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2010, 06:23:01 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 03:18:42 PM
Keeping the identity of the adversary in mind, when was "the beginning?"

Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do; he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood, because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh, because he is a liar--also his father.

It is not a trick question, I, myself, do not see it to be Genesis 1:1 this beginning of the devil. At this point I do not accept the "katabolē" line of thought.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

"From the beginning" is useless info in the context of this thread. It simply doesn't give enough info.
Just some views to think about. (not all my views)
a] Satan was created at exactly Gen 1:1. But how can he be a murderer if there is nothing to kill?
b] Satan lived long before Gen 1:1 and knew creation would happen and plotted the destruction of mankind long before Gen 1:1.
c] It was the mind of Adam that was plotting imperfect things from his birth.
d] Likely "the beginning" is Gen 1:1 but the beginning can also be birth. My personal beginning was not at Gen 1:1
e] etc

I almost believe that the "beginning" was Gen. 2:8 "...  and He setteth there the man whom He hath formed;"
up until that time  nothing had begun to live other than man until Gen. 2:9 "and Jehovah God causeth to sprout...." Now we can begin to see where murder is becoming a possibility.
Gen. chapter one is [I believe is Spirit, spoken, and propehetic]
My  :2c:

Death is what causes sin, fallen man has a fallen mind that does fallen actions through its fallen flesh.  Hence sin is everywhere, seemingly.

Satan has many servants - a third of the innumerable angels.

Satan isn't a metaphor, and he isn't a god (omnipresent) - he is a created, limited being.  Unless the Bible is full of myths, fables, and metaphors...at which point we may as well give up on even believing.  I say this, because we need to be able to "read with simple childlike understanding".  We can't get picky and choosy over who is a metaphoric personification, and who is not; just to suit our whim and fancy.  God talked to Satan [An individual called The Adversary], as God talked to Job, as God talked to Gideon, as God talked to Ezekiel, as God talked to Jesus, as God talked to Enoch, as God talked to Elijah.  Is Gideon a metaphor?  Is Elijah?  Is Enoch? (no they are not, lets keep to scriptural consistency then, and follow the pattern for when God talks to The Adversary)

Satan is a spirit, most likely an angel.  Angel is a term of office; Messenger, that became the de-facto name for the spirit-beings that are given the office of Messenger.  What ever "spiritual species" Angels are, Satan is most likely one of them.

It gets dangerously close to Eastern Philosophy, and New Age to call Satan the anthropomorphic personification of Carnality in the human being.  It also doesn't make sense scripturally.

There is indeed a carnal self - The Flesh.  But Satan [The Individual called The Adversary] is not "The Flesh".  Adam and Eve fell, disobedience, etc...you know the account.  Someone had to introduce Death to Adam and Eve, an outside force "The Serpent" did this, not Eve's self, her self merely followed the outside introduction.

"We are all dead, but someone had to kill us, or convince us to kill ourselves"

Satan is a spirit, I have to agree with you here, a spirit; but "thing" works for me as well, most likely an angel.
messenger fits the bill.
  Angel is a term of office; angel is the greek spelling of messenger.

Messenger, that became the de-facto name for the spirit-beings that are given the office of Messenger.  What ever "spiritual species" Angels are, Satan is most likely one of them. 
I dont know about being a being tho.

A messenger brings a messeaage.

It gets dangerously close to Eastern Philosophy, and New Age to call Satan the anthropomorphic personification of Carnality in the human being.  It also doesn't make sense scripturally.
Now this here is scripture.
Gen 2:19  And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field,
Gen 3:1  And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field
Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
Good thoughts.
I kind of believe that when a living soul awakens(Gen. 2:22) man sees things differently than in(Gen.2:20) man is accutely aware of a "new" sense, and that is revealed in(Gen.3:6) the knowledge of good and evil, an ingniting happens, that ignition causes an act of reason and choice, and the truth, the mind of man is carnal the choice is made. Jesus was in the likeness of sinfull flesh but His mind was not carnal, thus He would not could not fall into the thoughts. And when we have the mind of Christ, we as well cannot fall into the thoughts [the thoughts do come around, like the fowls of the air.]

I cant put it into words properly either, but I suggest that it is this igniting and ignition, is the adversary.

Lemme see if I understand you.
It's said/written that we are veiled and/or looking trough a glass darkly. Every time we take a step closer to Father a veil gets removed.
So was eating of the tree the first veil?
Before the eating Adam was so far away from Father he didn't even know what good and evil was.
After that people knew good and evil but often never really cared about it....
So when the first veil was removed ignition took place.
Is that what you mean

If he isn't a being, how can he talk?  Rocks don't talk, or lie.  Satan lies, it takes an act of personhood to lie, since a lie is an active misdirection from truth.

QuoteGen 2:19  And Jehovah God formeth from the ground every beast of the field,
Gen 3:1  And the serpent hath been subtile above every beast of the field
Ecc 3:18  I said in my heart concerning the matter of the sons of man that God might cleanse them, so as to see that they themselves are beasts.

Genesis 2:18, 3:1 - chith e'shde = animal of the field.
Ecc 3:18 - beme = beast

We are beasts, as is Satan, it takes quite a beastial person to inspire hate, sin, strife, and lies.  We are, or were just like our father the devil.  Beasts have beasts for babies...baby beasts indeed.

But that doesn't mean that The Adversary is a numinous essence, or anthropomorphic personification of our evil side.  He is not the black, or yin inside of us.

 

Quote

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 07:04:27 PMDeath is what causes sin,

Isn't it the other way around?
The wages of sin is death. Not: The wages of dead is sin. ?


fallen man has a fallen mind that does fallen actions through its fallen flesh.  Hence sin is everywhere, seemingly.

Satan has many servants - a third of the innumerable angels.

Satan isn't a metaphor, and he isn't a god (omnipresent) - he is a created, limited being.

Satan is the god of this age (world).

YLT2Cor 4
4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

QuoteUnless the Bible is full of myths, fables, and metaphors...at which point we may as well give up on even believing.  I say this, because we need to be able to "read with simple childlike understanding".  We can't get picky and choosy over who is a metaphoric personification, and who is not; just to suit our whim and fancy.

I see it a little different.
It's clear satan is the bad dude. That's childlike understanding. And enough.
But that doesn't mean there is a next level that shows what/who satan is. No matter what the answer is satan is still the bad dude from the childlike understanding.
Math at uni is different than math taught to 6 year olds. But it doesn't conflict.

When I say he isn't a god, I say he isn't a supreme being; Omnipresent.

Baal is a god, but we both know he's just a bit of gold covered wood or stone.  If that makes sense.

QuoteIsn't it the other way around?
The wages of sin is death. Not: The wages of dead is sin. ?

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law

QuoteI see it a little different.
It's clear satan is the bad dude. That's childlike understanding. And enough.
But that doesn't mean there is a next level that show what/who satan is. No matter what the answer is satan is still the bad dude from the childlike understanding.
Math at uni is different than math taught to 6 year olds. But it doesn't conflict.

But at no point in math does 1 ever become pi.  (1=1 pi=pi)

It isn't a good idea to attribute more power, or identity to Satan that what he is.  I am Lefein, I'll never be the anthropomorphic personification of a man's desire to burp when he has a gas bubble - that's just nature.  In the same way Satan is The Adversary, but he'll never be the anthropomorphic personification of a man's desire to sin.

He is as far as the scripture shows; The Catalyst of Evil (father of lies), Adversary, and Accuser of the brethren.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 08:28:01 PM
When I say he isn't a god, I say he isn't a supreme being; Omnipresent.

Baal is a god, but we both know he's just a bit of gold covered wood or stone.  If that makes sense.

QuoteIsn't it the other way around?
The wages of sin is death. Not: The wages of dead is sin. ?

1Co 15:56  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law

QuoteI see it a little different.
It's clear satan is the bad dude. That's childlike understanding. And enough.
But that doesn't mean there is a next level that show what/who satan is. No matter what the answer is satan is still the bad dude from the childlike understanding.
Math at uni is different than math taught to 6 year olds. But it doesn't conflict.

But at no point in math does 1 ever become pi.  (1=1 pi=pi)

It isn't a good idea to attribute more power, or identity to Satan that what he is.  I am Lefein, I'll never be the anthropomorphic personification of a man's desire to burp when he has a gas bubble - that's just nature.  In the same way Satan is The Adversary, but he'll never be the anthropomorphic personification of a man's desire to sin.

He is as far as the scripture shows; The Catalyst of Evil (father of lies), Adversary, and Accuser of the brethren.

Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, And all of you sons of the Most High.
Psa 82:7  Nevertheless ye shall die like men, And fall like one of the princes.

But we aren't supreme beings.

Alas, I wish English had more precise terms.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2010, 08:05:45 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 06:38:35 PM
Good thoughts.
I kind of believe that when a living soul awakens(Gen. 2:22) man sees things differently than in(Gen.2:20) man is accutely aware of a "new" sense, and that is revealed in(Gen.3:6) the knowledge of good and evil, an ingniting happens, that ignition causes an act of reason and choice, and the truth, the mind of man is carnal the choice is made. Jesus was in the likeness of sinfull flesh but His mind was not carnal, thus He would not could not fall into the thoughts. And when we have the mind of Christ, we as well cannot fall into the thoughts [the thoughts do come around, like the fowls of the air.]

I cant put it into words properly either, but I suggest that it is this igniting and ignition, is the adversary.

Lemme see if I understand you.
It's said/written that we are veiled and/or looking trough a glass darkly. Every time we take a step closer to Father a veil gets removed.
So was eating of the tree the first veil?
Before the eating Adam was so far away from Father he didn't even know what good and evil was.
After that people knew good and evil but often never really cared about it....
So when the first veil was removed ignition took place.
Is that what you mean

Im learning here myself, thank you Lord.  As for mans aptitude before Gen. 3... man was charged not eat of the tree, he was told he would "die" if he did. I do not believe that could have meant to much to man, he had no knowledge of what death was, did he?
I dont believe man was far from the Lord God, man was, he was a living soul, he was the first and was almost where he was going to begin his "death walk."

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 08:44:47 PM
But we aren't supreme beings.

Alas, I wish English had more precise terms.

Where did the supreme beings come from?
Psa 82:6  I said, Ye are gods, This says nothing about "supreme beings." I can see that at time I "felt" like I was a god. Gods have power to do things and sometime the things that men do make them feel like gods and some even act like gods. I dont think it strange at all.  I have this knowledge Deu 6:4  `Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah;

I wanted my point about the Satan/god of this age thing to be perfectly clarified.

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 09:07:10 PM
I wanted my point about the Satan/god of this age thing to be perfectly clarified.

Where do I find satan is the god of this world/age?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 09:11:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 09:07:10 PM
I wanted my point about the Satan/god of this age thing to be perfectly clarified.

Where do I find satan is the god of this world/age?

YLT2Cor 4
4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;

http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html)

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 18, 2010, 10:04:58 PM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 09:11:41 PM

Quote from: Lefein on October 18, 2010, 09:07:10 PM
I wanted my point about the Satan/god of this age thing to be perfectly clarified.

Where do I find satan is the god of this world/age?

YLT2Cor 4
4 in whom the god of this age did blind the minds of the unbelieving, that there doth not shine forth to them the enlightening of the good news of the glory of the Christ, who is the image of God;


Thank you I knew it was there but for some reason could not find it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html (http://www.gotquestions.org/Satan-god-world.html)

Disclaimer: This post is intended to be completely impartial.

WhiteWings, that scripture is ambiguous and does not answer micah's question, without an assumption.

Thanks, I was just going to say something close to that.

"But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

My understanding, in long hand.

The god of this age...

But if our good news, the good news of Jesus Christ being the Messiah, the saviour of all men, is hidden, it is hidden to those that are lost (the unbelievers) [those who are still dead having not been filled with Truth and Life by means of the Way which is Jesus, who is the Truth, the Life, and the Way] the lost being those in whom the "god" (worshiped noun) of this age, this present wicked age, has acted to blind, blinding and having blinded their unbelieving minds, lest the light of the glorious good news, which is the good news of Jesus being the Messiah, who is the image of God, should illuminate towards them.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 10:22:50 PM
Thanks, I was just going to say something close to that.

I have no problem with that... :winkgrin:
Few more:
Satan became the ruler of this world and the prince of the power of the air (John 12:31 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/John%2012.31); 2 Corinthians 4:4 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/2%20Corinthians%204.4); Ephesians 2:2 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Ephesians%202.2)). He is an accuser (Revelation 12:10 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Revelation%2012.10)), a tempter (Matthew 4:3 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Matthew%204.3); 1 Thessalonians 3:5 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/1%20Thessalonians%203.5)), and a deceiver (Genesis 3; 2 Corinthians 4:4 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/2%20Corinthians%204.4); Revelation 20:3 (http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/mhtml:%7BFF366C4C-98E5-4ABD-B519-0BFC48BB1584%7Dmid://00002177/!x-usc:http://bible.logos.com/passage/niv/Revelation%2020.3)). His very name means "adversary" or "one who opposes." Another of his titles, the devil, means "slanderer."
http://www.theabalonekid.com/id141.html (http://www.theabalonekid.com/id141.html)

Dont forget traducer. The adversary is all those meanings, yet without food the adversary cant carry out the mission, more or less finished. It is my reasoning that man, even in his believing state, sets the table, fills the plate for the enemy.

Joh 12:40  `He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart, that they might not see with the eyes, and understand with the heart, and turn back, and I might heal them;'
Joh 12:41  these things said Isaiah, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
Believe that works today as well.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 11:10:02 PM
Dont forget traducer. The adversary is all those meanings, yet without food the adversary cant carry out the mission,

The serpent eats dust.
Man is dust.
Satan is the serpent

SATAN


31 Now is the judgment of this world. Now the ruler of this world will be cast out.

--John 12:31

The Devil said to Him, "I will give You their splendor and all this authority, because it has been given over to me,  and I can give it to anyone I want.

--Luke 4:6



30 I will not talk with you much longer, because the ruler of the world  is coming. He has no power over Me.

--John 14:30

30Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.

--John 14:30


2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Corinthians 4:4 (Darby Translation)

2Corinthians 4:4
4in whom the god of this world has blinded the thoughts of the unbelieving, so that the radiancy of the glad tidings of the glory of the Christ, who is [the] image of God, should not shine forth [for them].

Amen Molly  :thumbsup:

Seems conclusive to me.

Disclaimer: This post is meant to be impartial.

I see what you're pointing out, Molly.
But parsed, it is not certain.

Quote from: Beloved Servant on October 19, 2010, 12:00:34 AM
Disclaimer: This post is meant to be impartial.

You disappoint me David.
I always assumed you choose the side of truth :icon_jokercolor:

Context:Jesus is discussing his death with the disciples, and says the ruler of this age, also called 'this evil age,'  will be coming for him soon.  Later, we will see Satan enter into Judas at the last supper.  Jesus says that Satan has no power over him but that he is doing what his Father has commanded him to do.


25"These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you. 26But the Helper, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid. 28 You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe. 30I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me, 31but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here.

--John 14

I certainly do, WhiteWings.

The point in the exercise is the use of Scriptures proving the context; thus the disclaimer.

I have nothing further to offer should this discussion be heading for the same place the other "who is satan" post went to. Thank you all for your imput, I found several posts that caused me dig deeper.

Peace and Love Through Jesus

He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

--Col 2:15

Footnotes:
a.Colossians 2:15 Probably demonic rulers and authorities
b.Colossians 2:15 Or in it (that is, the cross)



The thing is--and I even got this as a child--Jesus exposes Satan and his demonic minions for what they are--just by allowing them to have total power over him.  Look what they do--they torture and murder an innocent man.  That alone should inform people to stay away from any consortium with these beings.  But, man still refuses, tempted by money, power, lust, secret knowledge--whatever looks to him as good gifts from the father of lies.

Rom 1:25  who did change the truth of God into a falsehood, and did honour and serve the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed to the ages. Amen.
Rom 1:26  Because of this did God give them up to dishonourable affections, for even their females did change the natural use into that against nature;
Rom 1:27  and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving.
Rom 1:28  And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29  having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30  evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31  unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32  who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.

...concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

--John 16:11




14Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
--Heb 2:14



8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

--1 Cor 2

Mark 3: 23. So, calling them to (toward) Himself, He began, in parables (illustrations from things cast or place alongside for

comparison), saying to them, "How is Satan continuing able (repeatedly having the power) to be constantly

throwing (casting) out satan (or: Satan)? (Johnathan Mitchell NT Translation)

Mathew 12

22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw. 23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David? 24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub [2] the prince of the devils. 25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand: 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand? 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house


Here the devil has a kingdom. If the kingdom is merely physical through men, then why does God talk about his kingdom which we know as a spiritual kingdom competing against the kingdom of devil, which is contained in this man who was possessed.

.

Quote from: TTHere the devil has a kingdom. If the kingdom is merely physical through men, then why does God talk about his kingdom which we know as a spiritual kingdom competing against the kingdom of devil, which is contained in this man who was possessed.

Good point.  We tend to see only the material/carnal when we think of Satan, as if that were not something spiritual.  But, maybe it is.

Could you say more about this?


Matthew 4:9
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

Well yes there is a kingdom for the adversary and I suggest it is man and as long as man is feeding on the carnality of dust(Gen. 3) his kingdom remains strong, where as the believer who has the Spirit of the Living God, that person has the
Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
strenght to expell, the weaker, the adversary who will fall.

Inevitably, Satan himself will starve to death, and having nothing left to feed on, will be so hungry even he will call out for the bread of life.

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 05:08:06 AM
Inevitably, Satan himself will starve to death, and having nothing left to feed on, will be so hungry even he will call out for the bread of life.

I like that.  Nice...

^^ Hunger brings humility, and Satan can't die lol, not like we can from starvation.  So he has plenty of time to learn humility. >: )

Quote from: Molly on October 19, 2010, 03:46:21 AM

Quote from: TTHere the devil has a kingdom. If the kingdom is merely physical through men, then why does God talk about his kingdom which we know as a spiritual kingdom competing against the kingdom of devil, which is contained in this man who was possessed.

Good point.  We tend to see only the material/carnal when we think of Satan, as if that were not something spiritual.  But, maybe it is.

Could you say more about this?


Matthew 4:9
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

sorry I did reply, but I lost the text, when posting it :/

Gen 3:1   Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

Note the Lord God made!

Gen 3:14  The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and  above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.

1Co 15:47  The first man was from the earth, a man of dust

1Pe 5:8   Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone   to devour.

Joh 8:44  You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks  out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Joh 8:45  But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

1Jo 3:8  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Note that... Adam (or Flesh) was not sinning from the beginning!

Job 26:13  By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens; his hand hath formed the crooked serpent.

Rev 12:9  And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient744 serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world--he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

G744  ἀρχαῖος   archaios

Thayer Definition:
1) that has been from the beginning,  original


Rev 20:2  And he seized the dragon, that ancient 744 serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand  years,

Mar 4:15  And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them.

2Co 4:4  in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the  light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Isa 54:16  Behold, I have created the smith [Satan] that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an  instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.   

1Ti 1:20  among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan that they may learn not to  blaspheme.

1Co 5:5  you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

Eph 6:12  For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the  cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.

Really, You guys know the truth.


Paul

Pierac...That is some awesome connections of scripture.

Yet again, the Bible shows its consistency, and divine authorship.

Ok how is this done?  Delivering this man to satan?  Have you done it? How did Paul do it? I know why but how is it done?    1Co 5:5 you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.

And I believe the better translation for Job 26:13  By His Spirit the heavens He beautified, Formed hath His hand the fleeing serpent.

Again I need ask when was this beginnning? There was no murder in Gen.1  In fact there was no Adam in the beginning.

1Jo 3:8  Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
Note that... Adam (or Flesh) was not sinning from the beginning!

Those are all mighty scriptures, I have read them but what do you say of them?

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 03:26:24 AM
Here the devil has a kingdom. If the kingdom is merely physical through men, then why does God talk about his kingdom which we know as a spiritual kingdom competing against the kingdom of devil, which is contained in this man who was possessed.

People can't dwell in both kingdoms at the same time. If you are in the satanic kingdom you are in a kingdom of lust and voilence. Every partaker of that kingdom isn''t part of the heavenly kingdom. So that's competition.

 :cloud9: Of course he has a kingdom. All he can do is mimic; he has not the power to create anything. Blessings.....

Mathew 8

Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel. 11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 13

I wonder if east and west in this verse has a deeper meaning.
The entrance to the Garden of Eden was east.
God sits in the Temple/Holy of Hollies and always faces east .
If we look at the Garden of Eden as His kingdom then those entering from the East are the 'new recruits'
But to approach Father from the west means you are behind Him and already in His Kingdom.

Just a random thought  :icon_joker:

Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do;
he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood,
because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh,
because he is a liar--also his father.

A man-slayer from the beginning:
Gen. 1--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 2--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 3--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done** correction, the first lie was Gen.3:4. I aplogize               
Gen. 4---- vs. 7-- we have the first time sin is mentioned.
           ---- vs. 8-- we have man-slaying(murder.)
           -----vs. 9-- we have lying.
I suggest and believe that it is here that we have the beginning refered to in John 8:44
I have said this before, I  reason and understand, at least the first four chapters of Genesis is allegory.
I am learning as I hope we all are, but I seem to find even for those of us who have come out of Babylon,
there are explanations taught that leave me wanting.

Do I believe Cain is the adversary? Not on the surface. But I find that Cain "qayin" means 
the original sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast) from "qûn" A primitive root; to strike a musical note,
that is, chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.
Cain's actions are death, lies, and we see from 4:16 that what Cain represents will be around for a while [even though the name Cain dissapears
after Gen.4 until the NT]; but Abel from his first action of his offering, becomes the first sacrifce, according
to
Heb 11:4  by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified
to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.

And Abel "hebel" means  emptiness or vanity; figuratively something transitory and unsatisfactory;
from "hâbal" A primitive root; to be vain in act, word, or expectation; specifically to lead astray:

I have said this before, I  reason and understand, at least the first four chapters of Genesis is allegory.
I am learning as I hope we all are, but I seem to find even for those of us who have come out of Babylon,
there are explanations taught that leave me wanting.

2 Tim. 3:16  Peace and Love Through Jesus

Gen 3:1   Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

Note the Lord God made!

Gen 3:14  The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and  above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.


So before the serpent got cursed he did not have a diet of meat and 2 legs. He only eats dust, man, because he was cursed by God to do so.

So what did he eat before man?


Gen 3:1   Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

We all know him as the serpent, but does it mean he was originally evil or does it mean, that this being was naturally a slippery kind of person, someone who wondered what would it be like to do evil or to go against the command of the lord.

Also if the serpent is what the lord God made as a beast, then what of those other beasts? Are there other devils God made too?

Why does God create such a monstorus being? Why does God hate the devil so much, if he himself created him  :dontknow:

In Genesis God said

it repenteth me to make man.

How much more the devil ? :dontknow:

Is Jesus above using phrases that are hyperbole?  Phrases that are essentially true, but not of literal detail.

Quote from: thinktank on October 19, 2010, 06:53:17 PM
Gen 3:1   Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.

Note the Lord God made!

Gen 3:14  The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all livestock and  above all beasts of the field; on your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.


So before the serpent got cursed he did not have a diet of meat and 2 legs. He only eats dust, man, because he was cursed by God to do so.

So what did he eat before man?

Serpent seems to have common root with wispherer/enchanter

Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do;
he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood,
because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh,
because he is a liar--also his father.

A man-slayer from the beginning:
Gen. 1--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 2--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 3--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done
                [excuses, but no lying]
Gen. 4---- vs. 7-- we have the first time sin is mentioned.
           ---- vs. 8-- we have man-slaying(murder.)
           -----vs. 9-- we have lying.
I suggest and believe that it is here that we have the beginning refered to in John 8:44


He is the father of lies, so the first lie recorded is
Genesis 3 from the serpent himself, the lie you mention is from human.

3Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, [1] hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

A important clue, Jesus said he is the father of lies, which means Satan invented lying. If God invented lying why is serpent the father of it?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 08:20:28 AM
Again I need ask when was this beginnning? There was no murder in Gen.1  In fact there was no Adam in the beginning.

I could show you but would not believe, you must find the answer on your own. Before you can understand Satan, you must first find the source of evil and it's divine purpose!



Paul

To hate is to murder.  I'm pretty sure Satan would have hated man, even from the very mentioning of them being made.  I could imagine it going like this:

"Hmmn, I have an idea...Let us make man in our image..."

Satan overhears the conversation:

"...What?!  How dare you!  Don't you even dare it!"

God makes man.

"...urrrgh...what a loathesome, filthy, illegitimate child of God..."

Yes, I did over look Gen 3:4  And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
There is a lie, prior to Gen 4:9  And Jehovah said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: am I my brother's keeper?
Thank you for that correction Thinktank.

"I could show you but would not believe, you must find the answer on your own. Before you can understand Satan, you must first find the source of evil and it's divine purpose!



Paul
Thanks for your secrect knowledge brother, I was unaware that the knowledge that the saints receive  is a game of suprioroity. Throwing this verse out of reading, 2Ti 3:16  Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.  Peace and Love Through Jesus

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 08:40:57 PM
To hate is to murder.  I'm pretty sure Satan would have hated man, even from the very mentioning of them being made.  I could imagine it going like this:

"Hmmn, I have an idea...Let us make man in our image..."

Satan overhears the conversation:

"...What?!  How dare you!  Don't you even dare it!"

God makes man.

"...urrrgh...what a loathesome, filthy, illegitimate child of God..."

You my friend  have and imagination   "I could imagine it going like this:"

Quote from: Lefein on October 19, 2010, 08:40:57 PM
To hate is to murder.  I'm pretty sure Satan would have hated man, even from the very mentioning of them being made.  I could imagine it going like this:

"Hmmn, I have an idea...Let us make man in our image..."

Satan overhears the conversation:

"...What?!  How dare you!  Don't you even dare it!"

God makes man.

"...urrrgh...what a loathesome, filthy, illegitimate child of God..."

I'm not sure if there is any truth to this. Lets say for example that satan was originally created good, for I don't see God creating an evil being in Genesis, saying let us make an evil serpent, who is full of sin and hatred towards me and all that is good and profanes my name. 'And the lord saw that the serpent he made was good', hmmm

Heres some thoughts
ok so the devil is originally good but wants to become as God (evil thoughts)and ascend to the throne of God. How can he do this?

He knows that God is creating a new type of creature, one that has simultude to the very son of God. This excites him, rather than infuriate him. He has a plan, if I can make these human beings worship me instead of God, they will be mine to control, and through these human beings I will have access to god like powers(creativity). Eventually through time he seduces Eve, to break the command of God, thus completing stage one of his master plan, which is to lead them away from God and more towards himself, he now needs to get Eve to seduce Adam, maybe he said things to her, or perhaps it was the fruit of evil, who knows :dontknow:. But now Adam falls, satan can now influence Adam for evil, eventually through time he unleashes the beast from the bottomless pit and gets people to worship a man and to worship himself, the dragon, he now has access to this man, without God interfering and can do great miracles coming down from heaven and even thinks he can fight and defeat Christ, with these new powers he has.
:2c:

Adam was not seduced, dagnabbit!


Carry on. :happygrin:

Thinktank, my little illustration was assuming that Satan had fallen/rebelled/however you wish to put it, prior to Man's creation.

But I feel that I should now explain my illustration;

If Satan has been murdering since the beginning, being a man-slayer, then perhaps we should remember the words of Jesus our Lord; "To hate, is to murder".

Satan probably hated men from the beginning.  At the least it is a plausible interpretation of these verses together.

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Thinktank, my little illustration was assuming that Satan had fallen/rebelled/however you wish to put it, prior to Man's creation.

When we meet Satan in the garden, he has already rebelled against God, and is now carrying out his plan.  So I agree--before Adam at least.

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 01:27:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Thinktank, my little illustration was assuming that Satan had fallen/rebelled/however you wish to put it, prior to Man's creation.

When we meet Satan in the garden, he has already rebelled against God, and is now carrying out his plan.  So I agree--before Adam at least.

So, then you folks are assuming there was some kind of rebelling in Gen 1:2  the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
Is that what I am to understand? That God created , made, formed a being that had the potential to undermine Him? And when this being, spirit saw the chance he took it? Ive read stuff like that in the Dake and from Shepard's Chapel, and other writings. This must mean that there is a chance this  being, spirit created by God, could do it again, the next time maybe he will will. If thats possible have I have put my faith in the wrong faith?

I only said there was a rebellion.  I never said anything about the typical gap theory. :)

Rebellion against God is possible, The Adversary isn't incapable of it.

Deuteronomy 31:27

For I know thy rebellion and thy stiff neck: Behold while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the Lord; and how much more after my death?

The whence this from the beginning he was a man-slayer and liar? Where was this beginning?
Deuteronomy 31:27  He's talking about Israel here is He not?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 01:45:38 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 01:27:41 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 01:25:14 AM
Thinktank, my little illustration was assuming that Satan had fallen/rebelled/however you wish to put it, prior to Man's creation.

When we meet Satan in the garden, he has already rebelled against God, and is now carrying out his plan.  So I agree--before Adam at least.

So, then you folks are assuming there was some kind of rebelling in Gen 1:2  the earth hath existed waste and void, and darkness is on the face of the deep, and the Spirit of God fluttering on the face of the waters,
Is that what I am to understand? That God created , made, formed a being that had the potential to undermine Him? And when this being, spirit saw the chance he took it? Ive read stuff like that in the Dake and from Shepard's Chapel, and other writings. This must mean that there is a chance this  being, spirit created by God, could do it again, the next time maybe he will will. If thats possible have I have put my faith in the wrong faith?

I speak for myself, but I believe the rebellion took place in the garden of eden.

ezekiel
11 Moreover the word of the Lord came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, [4] topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, [5] and never shalt thou be any more.

In Genesis God uses cherubums to guard the way of the tree of life, so we know that there are cherubims in the garden of God, and this one called the anointed cherub was perfect, until iniquity was found within him, by reason is his brightness.

So if this here be the devil, then he is not an angel, but rather an anointed cherub. If you think about it a wicked beautyfull women are seen as seductive snake, serpent like, and this anointed cherub is beautyfull and seduces Adam and Eve.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 01:52:34 AM
The whence this from the beginning he was a man-slayer and liar? Where was this beginning?
Deuteronomy 31:27  He's talking about Israel here is He not?

The beginning?  I don't know, all I know is that at some point in the beginning of time, creation, or what ever...The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer, which was most likely I believe, due to his hatred.

As for Deuteronomy, yes, he is talking about Israel.  But that isn't an exclusive statement; it shows it is possible to rebel against God, even as his chosen people no less who saw him as a pillar of fire leading them in the night, and rescued them from Egypt, saw his wonders, his plagues, his majesty, his glory, felt his presence, and beheld the Ark his throne.  They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really.

Edit: Don't forget to check Thinktank's reply before mine. ^^

Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 01:59:19 AM

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 01:52:34 AM
The whence this from the beginning he was a man-slayer and liar? Where was this beginning?
Deuteronomy 31:27  He's talking about Israel here is He not?

The beginning?  I don't know, all I know is that at some point in the beginning of time, creation, or what ever...The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer, which was most likely I believe, due to his hatred.

As for Deuteronomy, yes, he is talking about Israel.  But that isn't an exclusive statement; it shows it is possible to rebel against God, even as his chosen people no less who saw him as a pillar of fire leading them in the night, and rescued them from Egypt, saw his wonders, his plagues, his majesty, his glory, felt his presence, and beheld the Ark his throne.  They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really.

Edit: Don't forget to check Thinktank's reply before mine. ^^

But if "The Adversary was indeed a man-slayer," my question is who was he murdered it since we have the record of Gen. 2:7
as being the first living soul?


" They rebelled, and yet rebelled continuously.  Satan is not all that different really."  NOW I think you got ahold of a generating thought. He could have been talking to me as well (regarding Deut.)

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 02:08:46 AM
Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

The word used for "the beginning" in the New Testament is most often "arches":

"APXHC"

Which is translated in the ISA2 originals as;

Original - beginning
Original - Sovereignty

Ephesian 1:21

Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come.

Huperano pases arches kai exousias kai dunameos kai kuriotetos kai pantos onamatos onamazomenou ou monon en to aioni touto alla kai en to mellonti.

Over-up[up-over] of-every[every] original[sovereignty-KJV: principality] and authority and ability[power-KJV: dominion] and masterdom[lordship] and every name being-named not only in the eon this (this eon) but and[also] in eon the being-about[one-impending] (also in the impending eon)

John 8:44

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from original(beginning) and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

___

Out of curiousity, I have translated Arches-Beginning into Arches-Sovereingty/Principality in this next verse rendering, not particularly important, but it might be interesting to see for someone if they wish to see it.

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from sovereignty-principality, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from sovereignty and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

___

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from (Original), and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Humeis ek patros tou diabolou este kai tas epithumias tou patros humon thelete poiein ekeinos anthropoktonos en ap arches kai en te aletheia ouch hesteken hoti ouk esten aletheia en auto hotan lale to pseudos ek ton idion lalei hoti pseustes estin kai ho pater autou.

You{+} out father the thru-caster(Adversary) are and the on-feelings(desires) of-the father of-you{+} ye-are-willing to-be-doing that-one human-killer was from (Original) and in the truth not has-stood(stands) that not is truth in him when-ever(whenever) he-may-be-talking the falsehood(lie) out of-the own+ he-is-speaking that falsifier(liar) he-is and the father of-it.

________

QuoteI understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

When he hated him.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 02:14:50 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 02:08:46 AM
Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve.  He knew he couldn't deceive Adam which is why we see him talking to Eve.  He murdered Adam through Eve.

I consider Adam the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world--but nobody else agrees with me.  Yet, the beginning of the world under Satan's rule happens with the casting out of Adam from the garden.  Scene 2:  Cain murders his brother.

"He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve." 
You mean the Lord God allowed Adam to be put in a situation by the adversary so Adam would have to choose between God and Eve, and when Adam choose Eve thats how the adversary murdered Adam?

"He knew he couldn't deceive Adam which is why we see him talking to Eve.  He murdered Adam through Eve."
Why couldnt the adversary decieve Adam?
And why was Eve so easy to turn?

My understanding of murder is more a taking of a life, a man-slayer. Adam "dying thou dost die." He was in the process.
Now Cain, he murdered someone and then Cain lied, thats pretty well documented.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 05:17:01 AM
"He murdered Adam by putting Adam in a no win situation where he had to choose between God and Eve." 
You mean the Lord God allowed Adam to be put in a situation by the adversary so Adam would have to choose between God and Eve, and when Adam choose Eve thats how the adversary murdered Adam?

That sounds almost Jesus like.
Adam willingly laid down his own life because of his love for Eve....

It does sound sweet, and romantic.  My only misgiving is that Adam blamed Eve when God confronted them.

"The woman you gave me..."

At least, it comes across as blame anyway.

Quote from: Lefein on October 20, 2010, 07:23:52 PM
It does sound sweet, and romantic.  My only misgiving is that Adam blamed Eve when God confronted them.

"The woman you gave me..."

At least, it comes across as blame anyway.

That was after the fall and after their eyes had been 'opened.'

BTW, he actually was blaming God lol.  God gave him the woman.

Well, I suppose that makes sense. lol.

The thought did occur to me one day (pre-UR)

"...Would I have gone with Eve out of the garden?"
"...What if Adam knew what Eve had done...and wanted to be with his mate..."

Is this taught somewhere?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 08:03:20 PM
Is this taught somewhere?

No.  Just here--

1 Timothy 2:14
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.


and here--

...Adam.... who is the figure of him that was to come.


Rom 5:14

You are saying that that teaching is Tentmaker teaching?

Does it have to be specifically Tentmaker teaching?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 08:30:30 PM
You are saying that that teaching is Tentmaker teaching?

No lol

I'm saying the 'teaching' is in the Bible--depending on how you read those verses.  You note it says Adam was not deceived and that he was the figure of Christ.

I dont really accept that thought that its a Bible teaching. But thanks for your thoughts, and I think you are reading "into" Rom.5:14

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 09:09:22 PM
I dont really accept that thought that its a Bible teaching. But thanks for your thoughts, and I think you are reading "into" Rom.5:14

That's fine.  You're the one who brought up the idea of a 'teaching' not me.

But I remember you saying--how do you know that Adam was not deceived?  That's how.  It's in the scripture.

Also it does say there that Adam is the figure of Christ--if you consider 'the one to come' as being Christ.

I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 09:29:37 PM
I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

Because whether one likes it or not the scriptures are interconnected. What happened in the garden is connected to the being called the serpent, if we have a better understanding of the garden we can understand the serpent better and his role.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 02:14:50 AM

Quote from: Molly on October 20, 2010, 02:08:46 AM
Manslayer and liar from the beginning--

Jesus takes it all the way back to Cain and Abel, and the men killed by satan were the righteous men of God.

35And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

--Mat 23


But, we first see Satan's lying ways in the garden, and I consider that he murdered Adam, so I would take it back to the garden and  the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand the Cain and Abel, but is that "the" beginning?  And how/when did the adversary murder Adam?

Two points, I'd like to make. One is, that Cain murdered Abel and this is the first bloody murder. So the question is did this happen in the begining? This murder took place in Genesis, the first book of the bible the 'beginning of the bible'.

The second thing is that the other murder the devil did is spiritual murder, by killing Adam. How did he do this?



John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it

Here we have the witness of murder, conected with the witness of him being also a liar. In the garden the serpent lied to Eve and said you shall not surely die. So in effect he murdered Eve by convincing her to eat 'poisonous' food or to be more exact convincing her that this food, will make her wise and that she will not die and that God is the real liar.

You really think "he" convinced her? I have read many answers and a good many "seem" to give alot more power to a defeated adversary and grant the adversary more sway than I do;   Rather than all power to the God and Creator and His Plan and Purpose.
I dont know, I find that much of the stuff that has been proposed here is...... well i dont know.
Anyway my queery was who/what and just trying to find out more of the identity of the adversary, not the retelling of the Genesis story or what are angels.
I have been on this site for sometime now, perhaps to long, for Im beginning to feel dominated by some opinon answers and almost intimidated by others. Maybe some of you bro. and sis. feel the same about me.
But then again its probably just me, and Im not mature enough to be in some these discussions,
and not really equiped with enough knowledge to enter a post.  I perhaps need to restudy and pray more along with an absence from the forum. Ive enjoyed a good many posts and I can only hope I am not leaving with to many ill words or thoughts.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 21, 2010, 02:23:38 AM
You really think "he" convinced her? I have read many answers and a good many "seem" to give alot more power to a defeated adversary and grant the adversary more sway than I do;   Rather than all power to the God and Creator and His Plan and Purpose.
I dont know, I find that much of the stuff that has been proposed here is...... well i dont know.
Anyway my queery was who/what and just trying to find out more of the identity of the adversary, not the retelling of the Genesis story or what are angels.
I have been on this site for sometime now, perhaps to long, for Im beginning to feel dominated by some opinon answers and almost intimidated by others. Maybe some of you bro. and sis. feel the same about me.
But then again its probably just me, and Im not mature enough to be in some these discussions,
and not really equiped with enough knowledge to enter a post.  I perhaps need to restudy and pray more along with an absence from the forum. Ive enjoyed a good many posts and I can only hope I am not leaving with to many ill words or thoughts.
Peace and Love Through Jesus.

Yes I believe he did convince her, by mincing Gods words and confusing her. But the important thing about Genesis is that God allowed this testing to take place, just as God tests us with temptations. However unlike Adam who is simultude to Jesus who was also without sin but who failed the temptations but Jesus passed the temptations because he is the lord from heaven, and according to Jesus only God is good.

job4
17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? 18 Behold, he put no trust in his servants; and his angels he charged with folly: 19 How much less in them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation is in the dust, which are crushed before the moth?

1 Corinthians 15:47   
The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Mark 10:18   
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God

I'm sorry if you feel dominated, I do post here a lot, perhaps too much. My intention is to show you the scriptures and how it applies to your questions, I don't claim to have all the answers, there is so much to learn from the scriptures and from life that even a baby can teach an apostle, timothy for example taught Paul how to love more, for life is gigantic, diverse, full of minds that see things from different perspectives, but we still live in a orderly world where truth is available and I'm not calling you a baby, neither am I an apostle, but simply a man trying after the lords heart.

I encourage you to pray and study , particularly if you feel that you must, God bless.

As a wise man once said;

"Let us reason together"

Conversation, and reasoning together is one of the vertebrae in the backbone of fellowship.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 18, 2010, 05:59:41 AM
I have a need to study just who the adversay is. I do not see that the opponent is a being. I know that
Col 1:16  because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
Col 1:17  and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
So with that information I must reason that what Im looking into is a thing.
Thing=any matter,circumstance, affair, or concern;often used in plural
Ive posted this again hoping that some will stay on the subject with out wandering to and fro

This may be relying pretty heavily on English. "Pas", all- simply "all", is translated as "all men", "every man", and numerous other examples, depending on context. In addition, since you and I are among the "pas" being reconciled and the "pas en pas"(all in all) that God will fill- as well as the "pas" that is from Him through Him and to Him- there is no reasonable imperative to consider satan a "thing", as opposed to a "being", in those verses, IMO. Also, what "thing" needs reconciliation? The need for reconciliation involves a violation, and the import of the work of "the blood of His cross" is the reconciliation of adversaries, "among whom we also once walked"...

  And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach--
(Col 1:21-22)
the continuation of the thought in the verses you chose lends some weight to my point I think.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 20, 2010, 09:29:37 PM
I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

I am only ever saying, this is how it is for me.  I don't know everything.  I'm learning like you are.  I have learned things from you.  I'm taking a closer look at Michael because of you.

We are just talking to each other here.  We can only really witness to what we know, and what we know is only a partial picture.  As anyone who has investigated a crime knows, the full picture can change everything.  But, we can help each other look at different parts of the picture.

I don't think we are that far off topic on this thread.  How can we discuss Satan if we don't look closely at Gen 3?  If some think he is an angelic or spiritual being, that leads to discussion of angels.  If you don't think so, then tell us what you think satan is.  Don't you think the back and forth discussion helps us to elucidate the matter, if only for ourselves?  We don't have to agree now, although someday we will agree because someday we will know even as we are known.

Quote from: Molly on October 21, 2010, 10:03:54 PM
I am only ever saying, this is how it is for me.  I don't know everything.  I'm learning ...

We are just talking to each other here.  We can only really witness to what we know, and what we know is only a partial picture.  As anyone who has investigated a crime knows, the full picture can change everything.  But, we can help each other look at different parts of the picture.

We don't have to agree now, although someday we will agree because someday we will know even as we are known.

:first:

Hi;
What do you think of this illustration?
2 Cor 11;12-15 " But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. For such people are FALSE APOSTLES, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself is DISGUISED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.  So it is no great thing if his servants ALSO DIGUISE THEMSELVES AS SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their destiny will be according to their works."

* Something to investigate. Seek the truth and this will be revealed.

 :cloud9: Probably not the point you're trying to make but to me, it looks like a comment referring to the fiasco the seven sons of Sceva brought on themselves from using the name of Jesus like an incantation without having the blood bought authority that goes with it. They tried to cast the devil out of a possessed man, and he beat them all up and sent them back. Their "destiny from their works" was certainly decided that day, LOL......Blessings....

To me the basic meaning is that some ministers pretend to be good, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You might want to take it further and see that the verse conects them to the devil, so possibly false wonders and miracles done in Christ name to deceive that they are from God. No fruit shown in both cases I think, unless they are the kind that pretend to be good as the pharisses did, making  a show of praying and giving etc, so that they are seen by men, have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. :2c:

Quote from: Ross on October 22, 2010, 11:29:57 AM
Hi;
What do you think of this illustration?
2 Cor 11;12-15 " But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. For such people are FALSE APOSTLES, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself is DISGUISED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.  So it is no great thing if his servants ALSO DIGUISE THEMSELVES AS SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their destiny will be according to their works."

* Something to investigate. Seek the truth and this will be revealed.

I think in context,1 Cor &  2 Cor (especially 1 Cor 3:11-20 & 2 Cor 10:1-18) makes it pretty clear that there were two distinct problems Paul was having in the Corinthian church. 1) the people were divided and using legitimate teachers to line up against one another(I am of Apollos...I am of Paul...I am of Peter) 2) There were men who were trying to pawn themselves off as apostles of Christ in order to achieve influence within the body, and in order to legitimize false teachings that were undermining the foundation the apostles had laid. These false apostles were like Korah and Balaam and Cain. They were like the reference in Jude to those who "left their proper abode" and are therefore held in chains in darkness. Among their false teachings, that Christ was not raised and that the dead are not raised, or that the resurrection was past.

2Co 2:17  For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

1Co 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the pronoun (his) connected to writings about Satan makes no more sense to me than ignoring the pronoun when connected to God or Christ. The apostle Paul was instructing here, not speaking by allegory, and I don't believe he was lacking any knowledge that we have today.

Hi;
Interesting that point about the false teaching that Christ was not raised.
There are references in other places like 2 John 7 " Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
The act of denying the flesh actually denies that Christ paid the price in full.
To deny Christ coming in the flesh is actually laying a foundation other than the one which is laid, Jesus Christ.

 :cloud9: When I first came to Him and read that scripture about no man being able except thru the power of the HG to say that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, confused me, because I knew that prior to my conversion, I believed Christ came in the flesh as the Son of God. I asked Him about this, and He said, "NO, it means no man can say Jesus Christ came in THEIR flesh, except thru the power of the HG."

And it was true; 2 weeks before conversion someone asked me if Jesus Christ lived in me, and I thought they were delusional, after all how can someone else live inside you?  :mshock:  :mblush:  :laughing7: Blessings....

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
(2Jn 1:7)

I hesitate to disagree with God......;o)

     Please,forgive the sarcasm but, as I read the context,it is regarding deceivers and anti-christs who have gone out into the world to resist the gospel. I think it would have clearly read "those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in their flesh through the Holy Ghost" if it meant that. I believe the meaning of the verse is partially revealed in the name "Yashua Mashiach"- since the Jews did not acknowledge the coming of Messiah, the central aspect of the gospel to Jew and Gentile, and the obvious indictment of their darkness. This denial has become and always was the central warground of the testimony of Mashiach, who, if He was not the unique son of man, firstborn son of God , indwelt fully by the Father- had no power to redeem and no claim to Lordship. The denial of the fact that the Messiah of the world (kosmos and aions) has come in the flesh- the Logos birthed, is, in my humble opininon the place where 2 John 7 intersects with the following scriptures to lend full understanding. "YHWH was in Messiah reconciling the world unto Himself"(2 Cor 5:19).... "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to tabernacle in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Col 1:19-20)

A stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Gentiles- but the key aspect of the revelation of God to every being in heaven and earth and under the earth.

I do believe one could extrapolate as follows- "One who does not believe Yashua Mashiach has come in the flesh would not believe that He has come in their flesh through the Holy Ghost" because "I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you".... but I do not believe that denies, or pre-empts the other, clearer (to me) meaning of the 2 John vs 7. Peace John

 :cloud9: I think it can be taken both ways, personally. But I was sharing the revelation He gave me concerning MY confusion over that particular scripture, because I did believe He came in the flesh, prior to conversion. Blessings....

What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

Who is satan?
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 12:20:28 AM  Reply #63
"Again I need ask when was this beginnning? There was no murder in Gen.1 In fact there was no Adam in the beginning". [Micah]
"I could show you but would not believe, you must find the answer on your own. Before you can understand Satan, you must first find the source of evil and it's divine purpose!"
[Paul]
Friend Paul, I thank you for your short statement of truth. The source of evil, is The Lord God and Creator. Knowing that, then the "adversary and evil", can only have a divine purpose. I read Gen 1:1  "In the beginning of God's preparing;" and then I read
Joh 8:44 "...man-slayer from the beginning..." From=  G575 A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with.

In my understanding the advesary is "from the beginning" if this be so, the adversary "is out from Jesus Christ" for Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits [the beginning.] of Gen. 1:1
H7225 rê'shı̂yth  the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

I also contend that in John. 8:44 when we read "your father the devil" " lusts of your father" "He was a murderer" "no truth in him" " he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. "  The fact it reads, "your father, he, him" I contend relates to mankind/flesh,  man himself through the fact that man and his help-meet are flesh and as Paul writes...
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 8:3  for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
I believe the key words  here are LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH,  man on the other hand IS SINFUL FLESH.

Yes I am learning, and without the body beginning to fitly,  join together, with the mind of Christ, (i) myself as only a part,  must yeild to the earnest expectaion of the whole. You are correct Molly, without putting forth the thoughts that the Lord reveals to us as individuals we will never understand even the largest of our personal revelations without all the parts.

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:14:17 PM
What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

:cloud9: Exactly......after the heart change, I COULD say He came in MY flesh. God just used that then to prove to me in yet another way, that I was now different, and something definitely DID happen to me. I didn't get saved in a church, so obviously there was room for people to try to tell me nothing happened, because some believed that if it didn't happen in church, it didn't happen, as I was soon to find out back then. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on October 23, 2010, 09:20:13 PM
:cloud9: I think it can be taken both ways, personally. But I was sharing the revelation He gave me concerning MY confusion over that particular scripture, because I did believe He came in the flesh, prior to conversion. Blessings....

Comprendo :o)

Then what of this ?
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

I think what Cardinal means, is that in her body which is a temple, in the holy room of it; dwells Jesus.

Quote from: Lefein on October 24, 2010, 05:58:10 AM
I think what Cardinal means, is that in her body which is a temple, in the holy room of it; dwells Jesus.

I understand what she is saying, what does that do for the understanding of Romans 7:18?
Joh 4:24  God is Spirit;
Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf.

Rom 8:9  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
I have been attempting by the Grace of God to come to the mindset of Christ that it is the Mind of Christ that indewlls the saints and believer, and that until we seriuosly begin to try and understand the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
I contend that we are at this place Jos 3:4  only, a distance is between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure; ye do not come near unto it, so that ye know the way in which ye go, for ye have not passed over in the way heretofore.'

Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Here the resurrected Christ is not saying he is in the flesh by saying He has flesh and bone. He is not saying He is not in the Spirit by demonstrating that He is not spirit only. He who has received the Spirit without measure(Jesus) has flesh and bone.
as i see it

The meaning of Romans 8:19 is that we are not in the flesh (under its governance and walking in the ways of the carnal mind) if we walk in the Spirit(under its governance and walking in the ways of the mind of Christ in the Spirit)

Brethren, we do not yet know what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

The flesh profits nothing,, it is a container, no more. The Spirit gives life, so we reign in life over mind and body.

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh///// We eagerly await our adoption as sons, even the redemption of our bodies///// And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

Amen :grin:

 :cloud9: @ Micah.....there's 2 kinds of flesh mentioned in there. One our natural bodies, the other our fleshly appetites and lusts. Blessings....

Yes- absolutely two kinds, Blessed is the mind that has understanding :o)

Explain please.

Basicly, in some places, "the flesh" refers to 1): the lower nature; the carnal mind; the old man with his appetites of mind and body out of alinignment with the divine nature; who was crucified in Christ and who was buried in baptism; and who we are to reckon as dead and mortify. In some places it refers to2): the body, the simple container, being neither good nor evil, simply material; that will be resurrected. Jesus had flesh and bone (definition 2)....material being, as well as spirit being, in His resurrected state. We will also, in ours, since we will be like Him. Jesus was never, in the flesh(Definition 1), because He walked in unbroken union with the divine nature at all times.

Quote from: Cardinal on October 24, 2010, 03:17:39 AM

Quote from: Lefein on October 23, 2010, 10:14:17 PM
What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

:cloud9: Exactly......after the heart change, I COULD say He came in MY flesh. God just used that then to prove to me in yet another way, that I was now different, and something definitely DID happen to me. I didn't get saved in a church, so obviously there was room for people to try to tell me nothing happened, because some believed that if it didn't happen in church, it didn't happen, as I was soon to find out back then. Blessings....

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


Psalm 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

Quote from: eaglesway on October 24, 2010, 06:58:03 PM
Basicly, in some places, "the flesh" refers to 1): the lower nature; the carnal mind; the old man with his appetites of mind and body out of alinignment with the divine nature; who was crucified in Christ and who was buried in baptism; and who we are to reckon as dead and mortify. In some places it refers to2): the body, the simple container, being neither good nor evil, simply material; that will be resurrected. Jesus had flesh and bone (definition 2)....material being, as well as spirit being, in His resurrected state. We will also, in ours, since we will be like Him. Jesus was never, in the flesh(Definition 1), because He walked in unbroken union with the divine nature at all times.

Thus the word likness in Romans 8:3

I believe I understand and see what you all are saying. This house of clay/flesh is the temple of the Holy Ghost when the The Father has drawn us to His Son. We are to do our best to do the best we can for this body to keep in good healthy.

But, the enemy is still out there 1Pe 5:8  Be sober, vigilant, because your opponent the devil, as a roaring lion, doth walk about, seeking whom he may swallow up,
And if I read Gen. 3:14 correctly ".... and dust thou dost eat, all days of thy life;"
Gen. 3:17 "...  cursed is  the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life, "
And Gen.2:7 "...And Jehovah God formeth the man--dust from the ground..."

The adversary is a principality and power and the "channel" the "dia"-logue is accusing accusations, to you and me who are mankind, a living soul... "dust of the ground + breath of life = FLESH (a living soul). And I contend that without the "mind of Christ" the flesh is weak and in it is found no good thing. This is how I reason and understand this.

1 Corinthians 2:16
... but we have the mind of Christ.



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

Amen.

Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2010, 07:51:58 PM

1 Corinthians 2:16
... but we have the mind of Christ.



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

How blessed are we!!! A double portion for certain!!!! An inheritance undefiled!!!!

  love what some have brought forth  on this thread and the law of moses is  for the flesh and putting it to death its the ONLY place satan can accuse  you before God it is by you trying to obtain your own righteousness by the Law /carnal command
If you are dead to the law of sin  that works death in us   by dead works and  dead fruit   
  but also  by  faith in  the same baptism  / Jesus Christ you are free in the Spirit 
  For me many times I see the carnal is always  divivded and at war with the Spirit
  the division  is clear    and seperate 

Satan  has this power over death / darkness  ,  basically ignorance   about the ways of God  the Light knowledge of Him   is the power along with the Love of Christ  to overcome the world and the lust  of it and in it

the flesh is a dark covering to hid sin in ..... but the Light/knowledge of  the Lord  exposes it for what it is  there is none righteous no not one  , not one understands

Romans 7

4 So, my dear brothers and sisters, this is the point: You died to the power of the law when you died with Christ. And now you are united with the one who was raised from the dead. As a result, we can produce a harvest of good deeds for God.

5 When we were controlled by our old nature, sinful desires were at work within us, and the law aroused these evil desires that produced a harvest of sinful deeds, resulting in death.

6 But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit.

so we no longer as an adversary  messenger/angel  of Satan accuse the brothers and sisters  by  judging  the flesh  because we know that no good thing dwells in the flesh and no flesh is justified  in the Sight of God
  Jesus told the hypocrites   you judge according to the flesh I judge no man  , so what does Jesus judge than ?

  love the NLT .God's Law Reveals Our Sin
7 Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, "You must not covet."[c] 8 But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. 9 At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, 10 and I died. So I discovered that the law's commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. 11 Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. 12 But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.
13 But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God's good commands for its own evil purposes.

Struggling with Sin
14 So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin. 15 I don't really understand myself, for I want to do what is right, but I don't do it. Instead, I do what I hate. 16 But if I know that what I am doing is wrong, this shows that I agree that the law is good. 17 So I am not the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.
18 And I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[d] I want to do what is right, but I can't. 19 I want to do what is good, but I don't. I don't want to do what is wrong, but I do it anyway. 20 But if I do what I don't want to do, I am not really the one doing wrong; it is sin living in me that does it.

21 I have discovered this principle of life—that when I want to do what is right, I inevitably do what is wrong. 22 I love God's law with all my heart. 23 But there is another power[e] within me that is at war with my mind. This power makes me a slave to the sin that is still within me. 24 Oh, what a miserable person I am! Who will free me from this life that is dominated by sin and death? 25 Thank God! The answer is in Jesus Christ our Lord. So you see how it is: In my mind I really want to obey God's law, but because of my sinful nature I am a slave to sin
   We see that  satan is cast out of heaven here by what Paul says   his heart / seat of authority  the throne is where Jesus rules now  his mind is  heaven  , but  the body / earth  that satan is cast down to  has a short time to accuseand tempt / test us   because Jesus will cut this short in righteousness ! Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut [it] short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. our flesh bodys ..

Quote from: eaglesway on October 24, 2010, 08:34:18 PM

Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2010, 07:51:58 PM

1 Corinthians 2:16
... but we have the mind of Christ.



Ephesians 5:30
For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

How blessed are we!!! A double portion for certain!!!! An inheritance undefiled!!!!

Amen Amen!

   Just wanted to say  when Jesus told  the leaders of religious laws  the truth they hated him for it and wanted him silent  dead

   they claimed they were the children of Abraham 
but Jesus told them if they were ,,

they would be doing the same works  that Abraham did 
   they were in bondage to the law of sin and death  because it was a human attempt to keep the promises of God  and  we know God is Spirit and truth , you cannot justify the flesh to God  its cursed , always was and will be  and 
that will never happen , ever

  so what is satan really ?

  you have really  brought up some excellent points !!!  Have been reading though this  6 pages  some more
  love it that everything has been considered   if Satan was created by God for his purpose  as we are also 
I know the devils do fear and tremble   ,     they all fled at Jesus presence .

why did they fear Jesus ..  more so God because  Jesus said if tou see me you have seen the Father
    they believed , showed faith , yet their works  are evils
   
more to consider  , I want to know too! I do not know how to explain it
   God is Spirit  and Truth  with expressions of Love Jealousy and anger  , pure

  the devils offspring of vipers are unclean

  you have given much to consider  Thank you Micah  for this  tread!

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 06:24:52 PM
Joh 8:44  `Ye are of a father--the devil, and the desires of your father ye will to do;
he was a man-slayer from the beginning, and in the truth he hath not stood,
because there is no truth in him; when one may speak the falsehood, of his own he speaketh,
because he is a liar--also his father.

A man-slayer from the beginning:
Gen. 1--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 2--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done.
Gen. 3--- no killing done nor was there any lying being done** correction, the first lie was Gen.3:4. I aplogize               
Gen. 4---- vs. 7-- we have the first time sin is mentioned.
           ---- vs. 8-- we have man-slaying(murder.)
           -----vs. 9-- we have lying.
I suggest and believe that it is here that we have the beginning refered to in John 8:44
I have said this before, I  reason and understand, at least the first four chapters of Genesis is allegory.
I am learning as I hope we all are, but I seem to find even for those of us who have come out of Babylon,
there are explanations taught that leave me wanting.

Do I believe Cain is the adversary? Not on the surface. But I find that Cain "qayin" means 
the original sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast) from "qûn" A primitive root; to strike a musical note,
that is, chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman.
Cain's actions are death, lies, and we see from 4:16 that what Cain represents will be around for a while [even though the name Cain dissapears
after Gen.4 until the NT]; but Abel from his first action of his offering, becomes the first sacrifce, according
to
Heb 11:4  by faith a better sacrifice did Abel offer to God than Cain, through which he was testified
to be righteous, God testifying of his gifts, and through it, he being dead, doth yet speak.

And Abel "hebel" means  emptiness or vanity; figuratively something transitory and unsatisfactory;
from "hâbal" A primitive root; to be vain in act, word, or expectation; specifically to lead astray:

I have said this before, I  reason and understand, at least the first four chapters of Genesis is allegory.
I am learning as I hope we all are, but I seem to find even for those of us who have come out of Babylon,
there are explanations taught that leave me wanting.

2 Tim. 3:16  Peace and Love Through Jesus

great  thoughts about this

and know that anyone who hates his brother is the same as a murder , so we have that answer

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

yes allegory !! tree of knowledge of good and evil   Light and darkness  night and day
 
Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. she concieved once and   she bore twice   woman is saved in childbearing
     thanks for searching these things out   with careful thought and consideration .

Blessings to you as well.

 :cloud9: Amen and SO glad to see you back Rosie....... :girlheart: missed you (and sis)