Who is satan?

[Molly]

I brought up the "teaching" thing because it sounds much like what you infer is how it is.
And I dont see where Adam was decieved. ".....and she taketh of its fruit and eateth, and giveth also to her husband with her, and he doth eat; "

Besides the question is/was about satan/adversary and the identity of same. How come the orignal post, at least the ones Ive notice cant stay on topic?

I am only ever saying, this is how it is for me.  I don't know everything.  I'm learning like you are.  I have learned things from you.  I'm taking a closer look at Michael because of you.

We are just talking to each other here.  We can only really witness to what we know, and what we know is only a partial picture.  As anyone who has investigated a crime knows, the full picture can change everything.  But, we can help each other look at different parts of the picture.

I don't think we are that far off topic on this thread.  How can we discuss Satan if we don't look closely at Gen 3?  If some think he is an angelic or spiritual being, that leads to discussion of angels.  If you don't think so, then tell us what you think satan is.  Don't you think the back and forth discussion helps us to elucidate the matter, if only for ourselves?  We don't have to agree now, although someday we will agree because someday we will know even as we are known.

[jabcat]

I am only ever saying, this is how it is for me.  I don't know everything.  I'm learning ...

We are just talking to each other here.  We can only really witness to what we know, and what we know is only a partial picture.  As anyone who has investigated a crime knows, the full picture can change everything.  But, we can help each other look at different parts of the picture.

We don't have to agree now, although someday we will agree because someday we will know even as we are known.

:first:

[Ross]

Hi;
What do you think of this illustration?
2 Cor 11;12-15 " But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. For such people are FALSE APOSTLES, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself is DISGUISED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.  So it is no great thing if his servants ALSO DIGUISE THEMSELVES AS SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their destiny will be according to their works."

* Something to investigate. Seek the truth and this will be revealed.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Probably not the point you're trying to make but to me, it looks like a comment referring to the fiasco the seven sons of Sceva brought on themselves from using the name of Jesus like an incantation without having the blood bought authority that goes with it. They tried to cast the devil out of a possessed man, and he beat them all up and sent them back. Their "destiny from their works" was certainly decided that day, LOL......Blessings....

[thinktank]

To me the basic meaning is that some ministers pretend to be good, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You might want to take it further and see that the verse conects them to the devil, so possibly false wonders and miracles done in Christ name to deceive that they are from God. No fruit shown in both cases I think, unless they are the kind that pretend to be good as the pharisses did, making  a show of praying and giving etc, so that they are seen by men, have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. :2c:

[eaglesway]

Hi;
What do you think of this illustration?
2 Cor 11;12-15 " But I will continue to do what I am doing, in order to cut off the opportunity of those who want an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in what they are boasting about. For such people are FALSE APOSTLES, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as Apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself is DISGUISED AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.  So it is no great thing if his servants ALSO DIGUISE THEMSELVES AS SERVANTS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Their destiny will be according to their works."

* Something to investigate. Seek the truth and this will be revealed.

I think in context,1 Cor &  2 Cor (especially 1 Cor 3:11-20 & 2 Cor 10:1-18) makes it pretty clear that there were two distinct problems Paul was having in the Corinthian church. 1) the people were divided and using legitimate teachers to line up against one another(I am of Apollos...I am of Paul...I am of Peter) 2) There were men who were trying to pawn themselves off as apostles of Christ in order to achieve influence within the body, and in order to legitimize false teachings that were undermining the foundation the apostles had laid. These false apostles were like Korah and Balaam and Cain. They were like the reference in Jude to those who "left their proper abode" and are therefore held in chains in darkness. Among their false teachings, that Christ was not raised and that the dead are not raised, or that the resurrection was past.

2Co 2:17  For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

1Co 3:10-11 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ignoring the pronoun (his) connected to writings about Satan makes no more sense to me than ignoring the pronoun when connected to God or Christ. The apostle Paul was instructing here, not speaking by allegory, and I don't believe he was lacking any knowledge that we have today.

[Ross]

Hi;
Interesting that point about the false teaching that Christ was not raised.
There are references in other places like 2 John 7 " Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist."
The act of denying the flesh actually denies that Christ paid the price in full.
To deny Christ coming in the flesh is actually laying a foundation other than the one which is laid, Jesus Christ.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: When I first came to Him and read that scripture about no man being able except thru the power of the HG to say that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh, confused me, because I knew that prior to my conversion, I believed Christ came in the flesh as the Son of God. I asked Him about this, and He said, "NO, it means no man can say Jesus Christ came in THEIR flesh, except thru the power of the HG."

And it was true; 2 weeks before conversion someone asked me if Jesus Christ lived in me, and I thought they were delusional, after all how can someone else live inside you?  :mshock:  :mblush:  :laughing7: Blessings....

[eaglesway]

For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
(2Jn 1:7)

I hesitate to disagree with God......;o)

     Please,forgive the sarcasm but, as I read the context,it is regarding deceivers and anti-christs who have gone out into the world to resist the gospel. I think it would have clearly read "those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in their flesh through the Holy Ghost" if it meant that. I believe the meaning of the verse is partially revealed in the name "Yashua Mashiach"- since the Jews did not acknowledge the coming of Messiah, the central aspect of the gospel to Jew and Gentile, and the obvious indictment of their darkness. This denial has become and always was the central warground of the testimony of Mashiach, who, if He was not the unique son of man, firstborn son of God , indwelt fully by the Father- had no power to redeem and no claim to Lordship. The denial of the fact that the Messiah of the world (kosmos and aions) has come in the flesh- the Logos birthed, is, in my humble opininon the place where 2 John 7 intersects with the following scriptures to lend full understanding. "YHWH was in Messiah reconciling the world unto Himself"(2 Cor 5:19).... "For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to tabernacle in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven." (Col 1:19-20)

A stumbling block to the Jews, and foolishness to the Gentiles- but the key aspect of the revelation of God to every being in heaven and earth and under the earth.

I do believe one could extrapolate as follows- "One who does not believe Yashua Mashiach has come in the flesh would not believe that He has come in their flesh through the Holy Ghost" because "I am in the Father and the Father is in me and I am in you".... but I do not believe that denies, or pre-empts the other, clearer (to me) meaning of the 2 John vs 7. Peace John

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I think it can be taken both ways, personally. But I was sharing the revelation He gave me concerning MY confusion over that particular scripture, because I did believe He came in the flesh, prior to conversion. Blessings....

[Lefein]

What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

[micah7:9]

Who is satan?
Quote from: micah7:9 on October 19, 2010, 12:20:28 AM  Reply #63
"Again I need ask when was this beginnning? There was no murder in Gen.1 In fact there was no Adam in the beginning". [Micah]
"I could show you but would not believe, you must find the answer on your own. Before you can understand Satan, you must first find the source of evil and it's divine purpose!"
[Paul]
Friend Paul, I thank you for your short statement of truth. The source of evil, is The Lord God and Creator. Knowing that, then the "adversary and evil", can only have a divine purpose. I read Gen 1:1  "In the beginning of God's preparing;" and then I read
Joh 8:44 "...man-slayer from the beginning..." From=  G575 A primary particle; "off", that is, away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literally or figuratively): - (X here-) after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for (-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-) on (-ce), since, with.

In my understanding the advesary is "from the beginning" if this be so, the adversary "is out from Jesus Christ" for Jesus Christ is the Firstfruits [the beginning.] of Gen. 1:1
H7225 rê'shı̂yth  the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
1Co 15:23  But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; then they that are Christ's, at his coming.

I also contend that in John. 8:44 when we read "your father the devil" " lusts of your father" "He was a murderer" "no truth in him" " he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. "  The fact it reads, "your father, he, him" I contend relates to mankind/flesh,  man himself through the fact that man and his help-meet are flesh and as Paul writes...
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
Rom 8:3  for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh,
I believe the key words  here are LIKENESS OF SINFUL FLESH,  man on the other hand IS SINFUL FLESH.

Yes I am learning, and without the body beginning to fitly,  join together, with the mind of Christ, (i) myself as only a part,  must yeild to the earnest expectaion of the whole. You are correct Molly, without putting forth the thoughts that the Lord reveals to us as individuals we will never understand even the largest of our personal revelations without all the parts.

2Ti 3:16  every Writing is God-breathed, and profitable for teaching, for conviction, for setting aright, for instruction that is in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17  that the man of God may be fitted--for every good work having been completed.

[Cardinal]

What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

:cloud9: Exactly......after the heart change, I COULD say He came in MY flesh. God just used that then to prove to me in yet another way, that I was now different, and something definitely DID happen to me. I didn't get saved in a church, so obviously there was room for people to try to tell me nothing happened, because some believed that if it didn't happen in church, it didn't happen, as I was soon to find out back then. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

:cloud9: I think it can be taken both ways, personally. But I was sharing the revelation He gave me concerning MY confusion over that particular scripture, because I did believe He came in the flesh, prior to conversion. Blessings....

Comprendo :o)

[micah7:9]

Then what of this ?
Rom 7:18  For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.

[Lefein]

I think what Cardinal means, is that in her body which is a temple, in the holy room of it; dwells Jesus.

[micah7:9]

I think what Cardinal means, is that in her body which is a temple, in the holy room of it; dwells Jesus.

I understand what she is saying, what does that do for the understanding of Romans 7:18?
Joh 4:24  God is Spirit;
Gal 2:20  I have been crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I that live, but Christ that lives in me; and the life which I now live in the body I live through faith in the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up to death on my behalf.

Rom 8:9  And ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God doth dwell in you; and if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ--this one is not His;
I have been attempting by the Grace of God to come to the mindset of Christ that it is the Mind of Christ that indewlls the saints and believer, and that until we seriuosly begin to try and understand the words of our Saviour Jesus Christ,
Joh 6:63  the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;
I contend that we are at this place Jos 3:4  only, a distance is between you and it, about two thousand cubits by measure; ye do not come near unto it, so that ye know the way in which ye go, for ye have not passed over in the way heretofore.'

[eaglesway]

Luk 24:39  Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Here the resurrected Christ is not saying he is in the flesh by saying He has flesh and bone. He is not saying He is not in the Spirit by demonstrating that He is not spirit only. He who has received the Spirit without measure(Jesus) has flesh and bone.
as i see it

The meaning of Romans 8:19 is that we are not in the flesh (under its governance and walking in the ways of the carnal mind) if we walk in the Spirit(under its governance and walking in the ways of the mind of Christ in the Spirit)

Brethren, we do not yet know what we shall be, but we know that when he appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.

The flesh profits nothing,, it is a container, no more. The Spirit gives life, so we reign in life over mind and body.

2Pe 1:4  Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh///// We eagerly await our adoption as sons, even the redemption of our bodies///// And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead

[micah7:9]

Amen :grin:

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: @ Micah.....there's 2 kinds of flesh mentioned in there. One our natural bodies, the other our fleshly appetites and lusts. Blessings....

[eaglesway]

Yes- absolutely two kinds, Blessed is the mind that has understanding :o)

[micah7:9]

Explain please.

[eaglesway]

Basicly, in some places, "the flesh" refers to 1): the lower nature; the carnal mind; the old man with his appetites of mind and body out of alinignment with the divine nature; who was crucified in Christ and who was buried in baptism; and who we are to reckon as dead and mortify. In some places it refers to2): the body, the simple container, being neither good nor evil, simply material; that will be resurrected. Jesus had flesh and bone (definition 2)....material being, as well as spirit being, in His resurrected state. We will also, in ours, since we will be like Him. Jesus was never, in the flesh(Definition 1), because He walked in unbroken union with the divine nature at all times.

[Molly]

What might also help clear up that verse, is that there is a difference between head knowledge, and heart knowledge, just as there is a difference between lip service in church, and worship in Spirit and Truth in the same building.

Someone might say out of head knowledge, like you Cardinal prior to your conversation that Jesus came in the flesh...but it'd be useless words, or trivia - like lip service in a church.

But then someone else might say out of heart knowledge, like you Cardinal after your conversation, that Jesus came in the flesh, and then it'd be Life to the person through the Holy Ghost - like worshiping in Spirit and in Truth, in the same church, or out of the church, and everywhere you go!  Because the presence of God is recognised, not just acknowledged.

:cloud9: Exactly......after the heart change, I COULD say He came in MY flesh. God just used that then to prove to me in yet another way, that I was now different, and something definitely DID happen to me. I didn't get saved in a church, so obviously there was room for people to try to tell me nothing happened, because some believed that if it didn't happen in church, it didn't happen, as I was soon to find out back then. Blessings....

Ezekiel 36:26
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.


Psalm 16:9
Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope.

[micah7:9]

Basicly, in some places, "the flesh" refers to 1): the lower nature; the carnal mind; the old man with his appetites of mind and body out of alinignment with the divine nature; who was crucified in Christ and who was buried in baptism; and who we are to reckon as dead and mortify. In some places it refers to2): the body, the simple container, being neither good nor evil, simply material; that will be resurrected. Jesus had flesh and bone (definition 2)....material being, as well as spirit being, in His resurrected state. We will also, in ours, since we will be like Him. Jesus was never, in the flesh(Definition 1), because He walked in unbroken union with the divine nature at all times.

Thus the word likness in Romans 8:3