The Meaning Of Christ's Atonement For Sin Without Hell

[micah7:9]

I must say that somewhere along the way I must have taken a wrong turn following the caravan of this thread. So I am stopping at a cafe and taking a coffee break, besides I'm almost out of gas. Bless the Lord. :dsunny:

[Seth]

LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

[jabcat]

Alright, you asked for it, so I guess I'll talk to you   :happygrin:  (modifying - glad to see in the meantime some others jumped in..)

I started to try to dig into specifics, but the more I look at it, I'm thinking it just could be that we look at the same scriptures, but are just going to come away with some variance in interpretation for right now.  I don't think that would be the first time that's happened in Christendom :)

It's funny.  Much of the time it seems we're saying the same things, then here and there there's suddenly a seeming divergence.   I don't know that it would benefit to try to take each and every point and try to reach absolute common ground on it.  I started to, but again, it just seems to be kind of looping, agreeing on many basics, but still just viewing some things differently.

I've started and re-started to post specific replies to various points, but again, it just seems to looping, like we're saying the same things again.  (like I just did, haha)

So, including your last post about Eph.   Here's what I see there.  We're saved by faith (which is given) by grace (which is given), not of works - period.      The result - included IN that salvation - is the then continuing process of the evidence of Him being in us, i.e., His works of righteousness "which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them".  I believe we can lose things, but not our having been made a child of God.  We're either a child of God, or a child of the devil.  I don't believe I'm a child of God one day, and if I or He slips up and I don't do exactly what I need to stay in the right good works, that I'm suddenly the next day a child of the devil again.  That's honestly the way I was raised, i.e., one can lose their salvation.  I don't believe that.  I believe when the spirit is saved, i.e., Acts 16:30"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" 31They said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household", I'm a child of God..I may fail, fall, sin..but I won't stay there (at least comfortably) - because a child is disciplined...  I don't believe there's anything I can ever do to not be His child.  That's accomplished by Him adopting me into His family through the gift of faith and grace.  If I'm a disobedient child, He will discipline me and I will repent in this lifetime, or I will suffer loss in the next age..things of me that won't be saved...but when I believed unto salvation, my spirit was renewed and it was SEALED by the Holy Spirit.  See, to me, anything less is just too tenuous.  The Holy Spirit in and out?  God's child/devil's child/God's child/devil's child - all based on works?  To me, that scenario waters down the power of the cross.  Maybe, just maybe, if we both stepped back and set on it a year, we might find we're saying a lot of the same things..just from different angles, and in different verbiage...for right now, for me, I think it's a simple truth to say "I'm saved by grace through faith and it's a gift, then God expects obedience and surrender, and He helps me do it.  I have no righteousness of my own, I must look to Him, the author and finisher of my faith."

Blessings.

[jabcat]

LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

:)

In all these various terms, attempting to come to a definitive conclusion, I've been thinking there may be some contextual things to consider, "who's talking exactly about what"?   I.e., some things being lumped together that may need to be "rightly cut [divided]".. ;  I had posted this earlier -

"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

[Seth]

LOL, here is the shortest version I can give. I have spoken in complex posts but I try to pare it down when I can.

Justification is by faith. If faith is dead, there is no justification.

What I want to know is, how is this inconsistent with scripture?

:)

I've been thinking there may be a contextual issue, some things being lumped together, i.e., needing "rightly cut".. ;  I had posted this earlier -

"The context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone.

James and Paul seem to be using the word "justified" in different context/meaning. In Romans 3:28  Paul is using the word justified to mean "declared righteous by God." Paul is speaking of God's legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ's righteousness is applied to our account.   On the other hand, James is using the word justified to mean "being demonstrated and proven."

:friendstu:

But Paul never says that righteousness is credited to our account. That's the interpretation.

Paul also never literally says that anyone is justified by faith ALONE. He does say "by faith" but we add our interpretation when we say he MEANT alone.

Paul literally said "Not the hearers of the Law are justified before God but the DOERS of the Law are justified." In context with Romans 2, he is saying that Gentile believers are able to do those works by nature not by being under the Law. But Paul's statement aligns itself with James so that they are not using the word in a different context.

Paul is attaching works to justification, but he is being clear, that the works happen by the SPIRIT, according to the circumcision of the heart, and not by self-determination. They are doers of the Law because it's written on their heart. Therefore they do not steal, they do not covet etc etc. Doers of the Law are justified.

[jabcat]

Yes, I agree - correct interpretation is important.  I believe there's context to that too...look exactly at who Paul is addressing when he talks about the Law, and exactly WHAT he's addressing... :2c:

[jabcat]

Your statement here;  "Paul is attaching works to justification, but he is being clear, that the works happen by the SPIRIT"...   that's the whole "viewing angle" I was talking about...  I agree that there are works attached - but they're not some separate requirement, rather but a PART OF what Christ's indwelling presence brings...a result of..not a means to an end...I believe that's Christ.. :)

[Seth]

Yes exactly. Paul is saying "Look you Judaizers! The Gentiles who have received the spirit are not coveting, not stealing, etc and you who preach Circumcision are doing those things! They are doing it because they have the Spirit, and you are not.

Therefore, the Gentiles are justified, and you are not, because they are doers of the Law, not hearers only."

Paul was always clear that love fulfills the Law, not circumcision, diverse washings etc. But at the end of Romans 2 he says:


Romans 2
26 So then, if those who are not circumcised (Gentiles) keep the law's requirements, will they not be regarded as though they were circumcised?27 The one who is not circumcised physically and yet obeys the law will condemn (judge) you who, even though you have the written code and circumcision, are a lawbreaker.

Love completes faith, which is why incomplete faith cannot justify, because it does not fulfill the Law, only Love fulfills the Law.

[jabcat]

Haha, I think we're getting nowhere fast, but it's kind'a fun   :happy3:   A lot of good scriptures are being posted :)

I believe Jesus fulfills the Law.  Of course, He is Love.

Actually, I personally think there are about 50+ scriptures I would understand   as "His righteousness being credited to a believer's account", WHEN truly given the faith to believe on Jesus as Savior - the miracle of the free gift.  I.e., have become a child of God.    I listed about 10 earlier, here's a few more.

Romans 5:18  Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 4:5 - But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:26 - To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Romans 3:25 - Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

[Seth]

I just want it to be known that I do agree with those scripturess, but I think what Paul is saying is that the free gift is the Spirit by faith which makes man obedient to the Law not of himself but as a free gift. There is no salvation but by his life, and therefore no righteousness. No man is presently righteous without faith first so Romans 5:18 cannot be understood outside "we access grace through faith" and that is how God makes man obedient to the things of the Law which are of love

That pretty much reconciles Paul with James outright   :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

[jabcat]

Well, I think I'm "OK" with your main conclusions there  :laugh:  :Peace2:   

Just a few thoughts;  I believe Jesus fulfilled the Law.  so that's where I believe His righteousness 'given' comes in.  But I also agree, that changes things within us.  There will be activity, and evidence of activity.    But since we could both probably post all night about specifics, I'd like to be more general about the overall topic. 

       I really and truly think some words, such as "justify" can be used in different contexts and meanings, and needs to really be rightly cut (hard to do).  For instance;  I may be saved, spiritually reborn, a believer on Jesus as Savior, and in that sense be fully justified.   Strictly based on God's gift.  Because of our High Priest, we can enter boldly in the throneroom of grace.

On the other hand;  I may spit on a beggar.  There's no way I can be "justified" in performing that act (unless I was mentally disabled, etc., but you know what I mean).  Does that mean I'm no longer a child of God, as in no longer "justified" in an overall sense, and so now I'm a child of the devil?  Or is that 2 different things?  I believe it is...but it seems like we're at a pretty good place, so maybe that's just something to be examined more in the future.   :dsunny:

[Seth]

Well I am glad that we have made some significant agreements.  :cloud9:

On the other hand;  I may spit on a beggar.  There's no way I can be "justified" in performing that act (unless I was mentally disabled, etc., but you know what I mean).  Does that mean I'm no longer a child of God, as in no longer "justified" in an overall sense, and so now I'm a child of the devil?

For someone who spits on a beggar and says he has faith. I'd have to look at James 2. Then, I would need to look at Romans 2.

I would need to ask, is this person a "doer of the Law and therefore justified?" I would have to ask, did works follow faith unto justification? No, because, as you said, you aren't justified in that act.

However, if you repented and changed your beggar spitting ways, then I think your obedience would line up with Abraham's "walking in steps of faith."

If you repented but CONTINUED spitting on homeless people, I would then urge you to take a look at Hebrews 10 "for if we sin willfully..."

[JulieTang84]

The simple TRUTH is there is absolutely NO ONE who will not be saved. It is safer than MONEY in the bank. SO safe that Father through Jesus indicated that even those that very little spiritual knowledge has been given, very little will be expected.

Seth, I know you have given the Scriptures a great deal of thought, but PLEASE stop and think on PERFECT LOVE and then realize that you are likely a squillion miles short of the mark. Father is just so far beyond anything we can imagine.

Julie, I already know that everyone will be saved.  :doh:

When did I say I was perfectly on the mark? C'mon, Julie.  :friendstu:

So, why worry? Pray to Father that all the Love that you have will go to where is is needed most. Trust that Father knows and have Faith that it will. Then listen to your intuition (the voice with no sound) and  a path like gold will as if my magic will unfold before you. Seth, it is not about understanding nor is it about seeking to learn to discover; rather it is about letting go to allow light to come in and bro, a new world is just a breath away.

I know you never said you were perfectly on the mark! That's the stumbling block and has been for so many for so long. Father created each of us perfect for a reason. The world say's sure we are perfect but we will be even more perfect if we do this and buy this and watch that. That has always been the trap and religion fell right in with it. When we have truly learned to Love ourselves for who and what we are. When we can Thank God and mean it each time we look into a mirror, and when we can look back over all the things we have done and see a child who tried so hard but fell so short so many times and feel nothing but love for that one who knew little but dreamed so big. Only then will see EVERYONE else in that same light. Even the baddest of them all.

Paul on Love

If I could speak in any language in heaven or on earth but didn't love others, I would only be making meaningless noise like a loud gong or a clanging cymbal. If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I knew all the mysteries of the future and knew everything but didn't love others, what good would I be? And if I had the gift of faith so that I could speak to a mountain and make it move, without love I would be no good to anybody. If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it but if I didn't love others, I would be of no value whatsoever.

Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

Love will last forever, but prophecy and speaking in unknown languages and special knowledge will all disappear. Now we know only a little, and even the gift of prophecy reveals little! But when the end comes, these special gifts will all disappear.

It's like this: When I was a child, I spoke and thought and reasoned as a child does. But when I grew up, I put away childish things. Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now.

There are three things that will endure - faith, hope, and love - and the greatest of these is love.

This is how Father Loves each one of His children, and this is how we must Love Father in return. Love is not Fearful and Love will never Fail. Father will never fail any of His Children and it is quite likely that the ones the suffered greatest in this Life, He Loves the most.

Faith, Hope and Love. A simple question for you, what question regarding Father cannot be answered with those three words? Nothing else matters.

Love Wins  :HeartThrob:

Julie  :girlheart:

[Seth]

Julie, I love understanding and seeking to learn more. But thank you for your concerns anyway  :gimmefive:

[Seth]

by the way I do want to clarify something. I don't believe that by committing a sin  or making mistakes means we lose our entire place with God. John says that if we confess our sins God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we sin without remorse though then I think we're just sociopaths right? I think Hebrews 10 is clear that we become adversaries of the cross.

[dajomaco]

Dajomaco says: WE have been given a righteousness that
gives us the ability to talk to and hear from God our Father.

Here is where I disagree: We have been given a FAITH to talk and hear from God. The righteousness comes when we DO what we hear from him.

Which is why I disagree with: When ever I add works with faith it weakens my ability to stand in the throneroom

I'm sorry, Micah, but Paul said that it is not HEARERS only, but DOERS who are justified before God. I do not, therefore, see the scriptural foundation for NOT adding works with faith. James is clear that incomplete faith justifies nobody. Works added to faith make the faith complete. Only complete faith justifies anyone.

I know these aren't popular words, but I believe they are scripturally sound.

I am saying I have come full circle on this issue.

To prepare myself to enter the throne room of God

My mind with all the battling that goes on .

I have come to the conclusion that to take any of my works
in the throne room with me. Leaves just a smidgen of doubt that whatever work I bring to mind .
I know I could have done better.
I resolved that no matter how pure a work I thought I may have done
I would not bring that work to cloth myself in .
It was always exposed as a filthy rag.
So now when I go into the throne room of God.
I go wearing the garment of faith in Jesus.
The Father and I discuss what I am wearing .
He is  pleased that I wear the garment that he provided and that I do not accessorize it.

[Seth]

I have come to the conclusion that to take any of my works
in the throne room with me. Leaves just a smidgen of doubt that whatever work I bring to mind .
I know I could have done better.
I resolved that no matter how pure a work I thought I may have done
I would not bring that work to cloth myself in .
It was always exposed as a filthy rag.
So now when I go into the throne room of God.
I go wearing the garment of faith in Jesus.
The Father and I discuss what I am wearing .
He is  pleased that I wear the garment that he provided and that I do not accessorize it.

Hi dajomaco  :friendstu:

You might be surprised that I agree with what you are saying inso far as my understanding of garments in the Bible. The Bible does not say that our BAD acts are as dirty rags. In other words, if I try and fail, that's a dirty rag. But that our own RIGHTEOUSNESS is as dirty rags (ie the GOOD things we do).

What's really interesting about that is HOW we have our own righteousness (I am really not trying to throw scriptures out there, but it's just amazing what you find):

Philipians 3
7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

You see, when we do good things because the LETTER says so, we have our OWN righteousness. But what Paul is saying is that he wants the righteousness that comes by faith. But see what he says right after that?

"Yes, to know the POWER of his resurrection...."

This is what I have been saying this whole time. The righteousness that comes by faith is through the power of his LIFE, by the Spirit, and that is what makes us conformable to Christ's death. And when Paul says things like : "I labored more...yet not I but the Grace of God with me..." He is living out his words that everything is a loss to him so as to gain Christ. Christ is doing the works through the power of his resurrection. Paul did not consider his works to be his own.

Here is proof (staying within Philippians):

Philippians 2
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

God does not consider pure works to be like dirty rags. He considers OUR OWN righteousness to be as dirty rags. Phil 2:13 is "the power of his resurrection through faith," to become like him and be made conformable to his death. To sacrifice ones SELF and live for God.

When we go into the sacred place, the pure works of the Lord go with us because they belong to him.

[micah7:9]

There you go Dajomaco(with humility in as I mention you)!
Amen and Glory :dsunny:
And that is tough my brother, in fact the garments hang on, as a shadow, despite all the shrugging and undressing. My given understanding, so Glory! I stand, for correction, should it not be so.

[Seth]

And, you know I like to boil it down to the most simple. So I will put it this way:

Here is the righteousness of God by faith: "For it is God who works in you both to will and to act of his good pleasure."

Obedience by faith, not by Law, that's the righteousness by faith. Jesus said in John 15 that the branches in him which do not produce fruit will be cut off from the tree, that they wither and are fit for burning.

I am not completely sure where accredited righteousness is supposed to do for someone in a case like that. I dunno, but it seems that Jesus is giving his disciples some pretty explicit warning about not producing fruit. Not everyone who says "Lord, Lord...."

To know him, is to know the power of his resurrection.

[JulieTang84]

Oh my Gosh, brothers REALLY!!!!  :dontknow:

Let go of the letter and see yourselves as mere toddlers in Fathers eyes. (See your own toddlers if you have them and the works of their hands) DO you see dirty rags? Do you see their works fit for the dump, or do you see wonderful works of Art that likely hang on the refrigerator or your office wall at work.

DO NOT be ashamed of yourselves and what you did or didn't do; could or could've done. There isn't a child alive that could not have scrawled a few lines on a piece of paper, better. But they could not have done it MORE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many children commit suicide everyday because they could not live up to "expectations?" What could have they gained had they been praised for their hard work, forgiven for their mistakes and encouraged with Love ALWAYS.

I have just one last thing to say and then I will step aside. Do you really believe the Father that Loves you more than you could possibly know, is a monster? He's not guys.

Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

Love you guys, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Oh my Gosh, brothers REALLY!!!!  :dontknow:

Let go of the letter and see yourselves as mere toddlers in Fathers eyes. (See your own toddlers if you have them and the works of their hands) DO you see dirty rags? Do you see their works fit for the dump, or do you see wonderful works of Art that likely hang on the refrigerator or your office wall at work.

DO NOT be ashamed of yourselves and what you did or didn't do; could or could've done. There isn't a child alive that could not have scrawled a few lines on a piece of paper, better. But they could not have done it MORE PERFECT!!!!!!!!!!!!

How many children commit suicide everyday because they could not live up to "expectations?" What could have they gained had they been praised for their hard work, forgiven for their mistakes and encouraged with Love ALWAYS.

I have just one last thing to say and then I will step aside. Do you really believe the Father that Loves you more than you could possibly know, is a monster? He's not guys.

Dajomaco, if you could have done better you would have. We all would have; we are not perfect and Father does not expect it.

Love you guys, Julie  :HeartThrob:

Julie NO, God is not a monster, he is one who disciplines his children so as to convert them and mold them into the image of his beloved Son. He does this because he is merciful and knows we are in slavery, so he is a deliverer. Just as the Jews were delivered from the Egyptian slavemasters , so God also delivers his children from the bonds of slavery and the yoke of darkness. No, he is not a monster, but a father.

Do you think for one minute I would allow my own child to persist in mockery, whining, violence etc? No way. I LOVE her, so I COMMAND her to do as she is told, and if not there is consequences.

Not a monster. A father. Can you please stop admonishing us as though we believe to the contrary and let us discuss these matters? Nobody is fighting. We are talking...

[JulieTang84]

Do you think for one minute I would allow my own child to persist in mockery, whining, violence etc? No way. I LOVE her, so I COMMAND her to do as she is told, and if not there is consequences.

Not a monster. A father.

Not for a single moment Seth. Not ever. You command out of and through LOVE i would expect, gently at first and as time goes on you likely reprimand with increasing force. Children are no different to us with Father. We push boundaries to the breaking point and if boundaries are no firmly established and enforced..... we know what happens then.


But I was talking about the "good" things she does in HER eyes. Do you see those things through eyes like hers. DO you see all the struggles she went through, all the things holding her back? I guess not because we are not so well equipped. That was my point. Father is. He knows EVERYTHING. He knows what you are good at and what things cause you to stumble. All I am saying, is to not concentrate on the stumbling, but rather when you dance gracefully with Spirit (you know the times)


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

When she does something good in her eyes that IS good, then I am proud and happy for her growth. If she does things that are good in her eyes that are actually BAD, then I correct her. She doesn't need to think that everything she does is a dirty rag. I beleive God wants us to take off our dirty garment and put on his garment, not stay naked.

[JulieTang84]

When she does something good in her eyes that IS good, then I am proud and happy for her growth. If she does things that are good in her eyes that are actually BAD, then I correct her. She doesn't need to think that everything she does is a dirty rag. I beleive God wants us to take off our dirty garment and put on his garment, not stay naked.

You are absolutely correct. I will just offer one more thing for anyone reading this. Children live for praise they NEED it. If praise is not present then the child will either do everything in their power to please whilst dying inside because they can't. Others will seek praise another way. There measure of worth is how many buttons they push and how quick. If they rile a parent / teacher, etc then they will have succeeded as they would have made a difference.

Not the difference the parent wants and certainly not the one the child would prefer to give. I have noticed that there are many broken children of Father, fear of displeasing him. Afraid of always falling short of the mark. Hating where they have come from and many ashamed of who they are. This is why the "church" is doing such a disservice to those such as these. Where words of encouragement and a shoulder to cry on if needed; they are often judged harshly and told to give their life to Jesus. These broken people cannot even accept their own life; the Jesus they devote their life to is just an illusion, a paper doll and it matters not if Jesus's Father is going to torture millions forever, just so long as it is not them.

People of all ages and all creeds need to hear what is good about this world, they need hope through something to hope for. Many churches make their money by keeping the flock dependent. Most of the friends I have won't leave their ET church, even though they don't agree with the teachings. They always ask: What if I am wrong? I always respond with, what if you are? Their faith is just an illusion and will always be until Father steps in and draws them to the real Jesus. This journey can be rough.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

I hear bitterness :sigh:

from who :Chinscratch: