the rest of 1Tim 4

[Seth]

It's shouldn't be aggrivating if you agree with what I am saying: no more our works but Christ's works.

Hon, that doesn't have anything to do with the curser jumping up and down when trying to write in the quote box.  :laughing7:

Ah, I totally didn't get that because my screen doesn't do that. So I actually thought that you were saying that what I wrote was jumping all around thematically and that you were aggravated by it. That totally perplexed me because from what I saw, we were in agreement as to how works do fit into the Mystery even thought they are not generated by our own self.

What do you mean by "don't blame me"? Didn't know I was blaming any one for anything?

See above.

Yes, they did change, maybe you don't see it but I do.
In the beginning Paul talks about how important our faith is, later he says it is the faith of Christ that is most important. In the beginning Paul taught New Covenant to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Paul said we had to be grafted into Israel to be saved. Later he came to see we didn't need Israel we are of the family of God, not Israel.  With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. The New Covenant ties us with Israel and the earthly kingdom, the Mystery, or final revelation of salvation, puts us in the heavenlies.

I actually don't see those as different or changed, rather different ways of saying the same thing. For example, the thing about Israel. Israel is actually "God's first born son."

Matthew 2:13-15, Hosea 11:1-2, Exodus 4:22-23

That being so, I see Paul's statement about being grafted into Israel (the first born Son) to be saved, and being the family of God as being the same statement, not a progressive change.

You said this: "With the New Covenant one had to be baptised, keep the Lord's Supper, have faith, repent. None of that is required with the Mystery. "

I think it depends on what you mean by those things, and what you think Paul meant. For example, since the mystery is unification of God with man through the Spirit, baptism is essential, if you are talking about baptism of the Spirit. Now if we are talking about SYMBOLIC acts which POINT to the Spirit, they are not necessary.

However, you said: "There are no works involved with the Mystery." That is what I disagreed with because there are works involved with it. In fact the mystery is revealed SO THAT we may be saved from what we once were enslaved to, that good works may be produced in us. That is why I quoted from the books you mentioned to show that there was NO departure from Paul as to what the mystery was for and what it was meant to produce. Paul stressed the importance of good works in those books just as much as he did in any other.

And the thing about Christ's faith, I think to me just means that we do need to have faith, yet it is the faith of Christ given to us as a gift "crying abba father." So, while we do have faith, it is Christ's faith that is given to us. Again, I see all these things reinforced through Paul's message throughout his epistles. If there are variations on ways of saying things, doesn't mean that the message changed.

[Zeek]

CHB, was Romans written before or after Paul received the "mystery" knowledge??

and before the mystery revealed to Paul, in the "new covenant", was the faith required "our own faith" or the "faith of Christ", a gift, dealt from God? 

[Seth]

...also in 1 Corinthians 12 faith is noted as being a gift of the Spirit.

[Zeek]

...also in 1 Corinthians 12 faith is noted as being a gift of the Spirit.

yes, from God

Rom 12:3  For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,

and

"of Jesus", even in his early writings (Romans , at least I think Romans was written early; as to why I ask that of CHB)

Rom 3:22  and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,

[WhiteWings]

What is wrong with this quote box it is all over the place it is so aggravating.

Not a real solutionto your problem but what if you prepare your message in Notepad and afterwards past it back to the forum?

[Raggedy Anne]

I'm trying to follow this thread.  It seems like it is an argument about several things: 1) Who is saved - who is not 2) Can one lose salvation 3) Who chooses whom, do we choose God or does he choose us?

Here is the way I see it.  I am saved by God's grace.  I never felt saved until in His time He delivered my soul from the fear of death and my mind from wicked works, etc...  For years, I believed in God and in Jesus, but had no true rest, no settled feeling of peace about my relationship with him.  That is because it was not of me being willing, but in His hands.  We are warned to never take God's grace in vain and we should take such warnings seriously because we are completely dependent on God for our peace of mind and our assurance of faith.   God could, if he thought it necessary, hide himself at any time and leave us desperate, say if we had become proud in our hearts and needed to be humbled.  In that sense, yes, a person could lose their salvation or shipwreck their faith.   I depend on God every day to keep my candle lit, to keep my lamp filled with oil because without him, I would be so lost in a very dark world, a very troubled world.   

Just thought I'd add this to the discussion while it is on my heart.

Anne

[natcat86]

A verse that has been in my head a lot lately is Psalm 37:4 Delight yourself in the LORD and he will give you the desires of your heart. I was thinking that if you are delighting yourself in the Lord you will be a naturally sinning less. Not just trying to be good out of obligation but like in any relationship where you are delighted with that person you are naturally more attentive the things that will please them. Also to get to the point where you are delighted in the Lord to have a relationship that close you must be spending lots of time in prayer and reading your bible. the more you get to know him the more you will understand why it is that sin is sin and why we should want to be more christ like.

What is it they say, sun light is the best disinfectant, the more time you spend in the light (Christ) the more He will disinfect you.

If you are delighted in the Lord the desires of your heart will all be things which will make you more Christ like.

If you are saved and loving God you are becoming more Christlike every day.

[CHB]

Hi Seth, Zeek,

I will explain this in the shortest possible way and to the best of my ability and the way I understand it all. Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, I just don't have a lot of time to post much.

The Covenants Old and New were ONLY for the Israelites (Jer. 31:32-34) The Lord says he will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. There is nothing said about Gentiles here. (Rom. 9:4) This also shows that the covenants and promises were only to Israel.

Also in (Eph.2:11-12) Paul says that the Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise. paul made it clear that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles they were excluded from the promises and covenants. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel to receive the promises.

(Heb. 8:6) When Christ was crucified that established the New Covenant with Israel, not Gentiles, remember Christ said "I am ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

After Christ was crucified the apostles along with Paul started preaching the New Covenant, that is all they knew about. Later Paul saw that he was chosen to go to the Gentiles. Paul still preached the New Covenant most of the time because he was prevented from preaching the Mystery. If you notice Paul kept asking for prayer so that he could preach this message as he thought he should but that didn't happen.

The first mention of the Mystery was in (Romans 16:25) but Paul only mentions it briefly as he acknowledges in (Eph. 3:1-) this whole chapter of Ephesians talks about the Mystery. No one knew about this until it was revealed to Paul. As he says in verse 1, teaching this mystery is why he is in prison.

This Mystery wasn't the New Covenant, it was better than the New Covenant in that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel, or be attached to israel to become saved. Paul began to understand that we were of the family of God, not Israel. We are a child of God, not Israel. We are in Christ, not Israel. All of the laws were no longer necessary to be saved. Remember how the apostles preached, repentance and baptism in order be saved?   As Paul said in (Eph. 3:6)  now we are fellowheirs and of the same {BODY,CHRIST} not {Bride, Israel}, and partakers of HIS PROMISE IN CHRIST, not Israel.

Under the New Covenant the epistles show that God recognized two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being in Christ. The Gentiles reckoned as Israelites were given duties far less stringent than ordinary Israelites. Still, under the New Covenant all were acknowledge as Israelites.

The Mystery is a better understanding of what God had planned for all people concerning salvation. It is the final stage of understanding the Gospel.

The faith we have now is no longer our faith but that of Christ. The works we do now is no longer our works but Christ working in anf=d through us. We no longer need baptism or keep the Lord's Supper to be saved. Our citizenship is now in heaven, not on earth. We are not the Israel of God but the family of God.

The Mystery wasn't preached much as you can see once you understand it and know what to look for. Paul was constantly asking that prayers be made for him so that a door would be opened for him to preach the Gospel.

Even today people want to be associated with Israel and try to claim the New Covenant applies to themselves when in fact it was only for Israel.

CHB
         

[Zeek]

Is this "new covenant teaching" or "mystery teaching"?

Rom 3:22  and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference

[Seth]

If you are delighted in the Lord the desires of your heart will all be things which will make you more Christ like.

If you are saved and loving God you are becoming more Christlike every day.

Amen Check this out:

Psalm 37:4-6
Delight thyself also in the LORD: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart. Commit thy way unto the LORD; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass. And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

So what I see there, is that the desires of our heart is something actually that God gives to us, THEN carries that desire to pass, and in doing so brings forth the righteousness he gave us to be ours.

So you are exactly right, if God plants desires in our hearts then brings it to pass, those desires will be Christ like because they are FROM Christ.

Philippians 2:12-13
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

[Seth]

I will explain this in the shortest possible way and to the best of my ability and the way I understand it all. Sorry it took me so long to get back with you, I just don't have a lot of time to post much.

Thank you for your patience, and no need to apologize.

The Covenants Old and New were ONLY for the Israelites (Jer. 31:32-34) The Lord says he will make A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. There is nothing said about Gentiles here. (Rom. 9:4) This also shows that the covenants and promises were only to Israel.

Actually that is where I disagree.

Paul shows that when God was talking through the prophets of old about Israel's return to the land, he was actually talking about the establishment of a new people who would be called Jews.

Hosea 2:14-17, 20-23
I am now going to allure her; I will lead her into the desert and speak tenderly to her. There I will give her back her vineyards, and will make the Valley of Achor a door of hope. There she will sing as in the days of her youth, as in the day she came up out of Egypt. "In that day," declares the LORD, "you will call me 'my husband'; you will no longer call me 'my master.' I will remove the names of the Baals from her lips; no longer will their names be invoked.

I will betroth you in faithfulness, and you will acknowledge the LORD. "In that day I will respond," declares the LORD— "I will respond to the skies, and they will respond to the earth; and the earth will respond to the grain, the new wine and oil, and they will respond to Jezreel. I will plant her for myself in the land; I will show my love to the one I called 'Not my loved one.' I will say to those called 'Not my people,' 'You are my people'; and they will say, 'You are my God.'"

Carnally discerned, the prophecy says nothing about "gentiles." But Paul's interpretation applied to both Jews and Gentiles in the Spirit:

Rom 9:23-25
What if he did that to show the riches of his glory to others? Those are the people he shows his mercy to. He had prepared them to receive his glory. We are those people. He has chosen us. We do not come only from the Jewish race. Many of us are not Jews. God says in Hosea, "I will call those who are not my people 'my people.' I will call the one who is not my loved one 'my loved one.'" He also says, "Once it was said to them, "You are not my people.' In that very place they will be called 'children of the living God.'"

Paul interpreted Hosea spiritually, because he knew that Spiritual discernment is needed to understand what is given to us (1 Corinthians 2:11). So, Paul applied that spiritual discernment to know that when God spoke about bringing scattered Jews back to the land, he was talking about increasing the family of God, because to be a Jew is NOT outwardly according to the circumcision of the flesh (people who weren't circumcised were not Jews, regardless of their parentage), but IS inwardly according to circumcision by the SPIRIT.

So, the new covenant with the house of Israel IS the covenant with BOTH Gentiles and Jews who are circumcised by the SPIRIT.

Also in (Eph.2:11-12) Paul says that the Gentiles were strangers from the covenants of promise. paul made it clear that as long as Gentiles remained Gentiles they were excluded from the promises and covenants. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel to receive the promises.

The "times past" that Paul is speaking about there, is when to be a Jew was to by circumcised by the flesh. That is why Paul says to them:

Eph.2
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Paul's point there is that NOW, since to be a Jew is to be inward according to circumcision by the Spirit, being Gentiles according to the flesh, DOES NOT keep them form the promise even if they were once conc. The promise of Abraham IS the promise of the HOLY SPIRIT. So, as long as someone is a Gentile, they ARE excluded, but the definition of Gentile now is NOT being circumcised in the heart by the Spirit. So they are only excluded because they have not yet believed.

Galatians 3:1
(God) redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, SO THAT by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.

(Heb. 8:6) When Christ was crucified that established the New Covenant with Israel, not Gentiles, remember Christ said "I am ONLY sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel".

That's right. The lost sheep of the house of Israel are the same ones Paul referred to as "once not a people, now a people" anyone with the Spirit once were lost now are found.

This Mystery wasn't the New Covenant, it was better than the New Covenant in that one didn't have to be grafted into Israel, or be attached to israel to become saved.

As I have stated before I disagree.

Look at this prophecy:

Hosea 11:1-2
The LORD continues,"When Israel was a young nation, I loved them. I chose to bring my son out of Egypt. But the more I called out to Israel, the further they went away from me. They brought sacrifices to the statues of the gods that were named after Baal. And they burned incense to them.


Exodus 4:22-23
Then (Moses) say to Pharaoh, 'This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son, and I told you,
"Let my son go, so he may worship me." But you refused to let him go; so I will kill your firstborn son.'"

And see how, hidden in that prophecy is Christ:

Matthew 2:13-15
An angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. "Get up," he said, "take (Jesus) and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him." So he got up, took the child and his mother during the night and left for Egypt, They stayed there until King Herod died. So the words the Lord had spoken through the prophet came true. He had said, "I chose to bring my son out of Egypt."

Israel IS the first born son, It's JESUS!

That means to be grafted into Israel is to be GRAFTED INTO CHRIST. Going back to what Paul said: A Jew is not outward according to circumcision of the flesh, but of the heart by the Spirit. That is why to be saved, one MUST be grafted into Christ, because that is how one puts on the mind of Christ and is saved from the mind of the flesh.

Under the New Covenant the epistles show that God recognized two types of Israelites on earth. The first were Israelites of the flesh who accepted Christ and the others were newly adopted "Israelites" who were Gentiles in the flesh but now called the "Israel of God" because of being in Christ.

This is the same as "the mystery." BOTH are ONE with Christ, both the remnant of physical Jews and Gentiles who are both Jews according to God's new definition of Spiritual oneness with Christ.

That means Israel of God is the SAME as "the mystery" because the Mystery speaks of oneness with God by the Spirit.

The faith we have now is no longer our faith but that of Christ. The works we do now is no longer our works but Christ working in anf=d through us. We no longer need baptism or keep the Lord's Supper to be saved. Our citizenship is now in heaven, not on earth. We are not the Israel of God but the family of God.

We are BOTH the Israel of God (because we are in the First born Son, who is Israel, AND we are the family of God). The two are not separate concepts.

Even today people want to be associated with Israel and try to claim the New Covenant applies to themselves when in fact it was only for Israel.

I am one of those people because I know what Israel really is.
       

[HartleyDamboiseII]

CHB I totally agree with your whole post and will record it, I know that you put a lot of work into it , But you are right on many counts, especially it being the short version.
Lee


Seth, hope your not offended, but I believe you are totally grasping for straws to get your belief Believed, Jesus is not Israel. Carnally or Spiritually. That would be like me marrying my self. Bride and Groom in one.

Sorry Seth, I just see so much justification in your post to get your "story" across. IMO  Please don't be offended, it is just how "I" feel.

I will never be a follower of The Law. Or a beaker of said law. "sinner"

Lee Damboise II      Gentiles were never sinners.

[Seth]

Seth, hope your not offended, but I believe you are totally grasping for straws to get your belief Believed, Jesus is not Israel. Carnally or Spiritually. That would be like me marrying my self. Bride and Groom in one.

Not offended. Israel was prophetically Christ as the Bible says. You don't have to believe that if you don't want to. I am not forcing you to believe anything.

The mystery is ONEness. The reason it is a mystery is because when you say: "that would be like me marrying myself" you demonstrate the mysterious quality of ONEness in two people conjoined by the Spirit. Christ is Israel, We are IN Christ, and are IN Israel. And we therefore ARE Israel. Hence, the mystery. As he is so are we in this world. The two are one.

You ever wonder why when you marry someone, that person's sister is called your sister (ie sister in law?) That doesn't mean you are committing incest. It's that way because God looks at the two as ONE. So my father is my wife's father, and her brother and sister are my brother and sister.

In the same way, Christ is Israel and we are Israel by virtue of being in Christ. The two are one.

Sorry Seth, I just see so much justification in your post to get your "story" across. IMO  Please don't be offended, it is just how "I" feel.

As I said, I am not offended. Feel however you need to feel. You haven't shown me wrong, you have basically just handed me one big "nuh uh." What am I supposed to do with that?

I will never be a follower of The Law.

Is that what this is about?

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Yes

[rosered]

 

   Seth I do hear what you are saying and  these  also reveal   part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing   the mystery of godliness

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints  
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.  

 and CHB  is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
 I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,  


 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you  give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?  


Jam 2:17   Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.  

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have  faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works.  


Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have  not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells.  


 in a nutshell , it all comes from  God /Love  and Love for God  , the real deal  not the   fake stuff  so men can think anyone is  godlike :msealed:

15but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth.
16By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
         He who was revealed in the flesh,
         Was vindicated in the Spirit,
         Seen by angels,
         Proclaimed among the nations,
         Believed on in the world,
         Taken up in glory.

 


 :HeartThrob:
 :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.

Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO

[Seth]

    Seth I do hear what you are saying and  these  also reveal   part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing   the mystery of godliness

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints  
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 

  and CHB  is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
  I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 


  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you  give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 


Jam 2:17   Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. 

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have  faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 


Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have  not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells. 


  in a nutshell , it all comes from  God /Love  and Love for God  , the real deal  not the   fake stuff  so men can think your godlike  :msealed:

  :HeartThrob:
  :HeartThrob:

Exactly. The works that save are a manifestation of God which wills and works through us. Yet I do not see this message changing over the course of time in Paul's epistles. I see His epistles consistently speaking that message.

We have faith, yet our faith is ours because it has been given as a gift of God. 1 Corinthians 12 speaks on that as clear as crystal. Those 1 Cor 12 works are things we do, yet we do them because they have been gifted through us. So because Paul speaks of "your faith" and "faith of Christ" doesn't mean he is talking about separate things. They are both the same thing.

And as you demonstrate, the works that save have saving power in the sense that they are opposite of the evil works done in in the previous old man. If we are saying we have faith and are working evil anyway, that faith is not complete as to what was intended by faith....salvation.

Good stuff rose.

[rosered]

James is % 100 percent written to followers of Law, and not to be taken for a Gentile as rules, just understanding of how God delt with His people, "then" and not to todays gentiles.

Rev. is not to us either unless your a born Jew. the whole book is written to a people and at the time it was never intended as a book for Gentiles, it is % 100 percent a book to reveal The Christ in Creation...The whole book. IMO

  We cannot take out parts of the bible to suit  ourselves and  form our   ideas as truth Lee .
 to me its ALL or nothing ..   Love God  first and your neighbour  as yourself   and  everything else just seems to fall into its proper place .. :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Rose do you believe in following all 640 penned laws of Moses??? In "the bible"  ????

[rosered]

    Seth I do hear what you are saying and  these  also reveal   part of the mystery Paul speaks of in Revelations / revealing   the mystery of godliness

Jud 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort [you] that you should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints  
Hbr 6:10 For God [is] not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that you have ministered to the saints, and do minister.


Rev 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 

  and CHB  is speaking of this Faith being the Lords faith
  I can also see this too
Jam 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?  If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 


  And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding you  give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit? 


Jam 2:17   Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone. 

Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, You have  faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your  works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 


Rev 2:13 I know your works, and where you dwell, [even] where Satan's seat [is]: and you hold fast my name, and have  not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas [was] my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwells. 


  in a nutshell , it all comes from  God /Love  and Love for God  , the real deal  not the   fake stuff  so men can think your godlike  :msealed:

  :HeartThrob:
  :HeartThrob:

Exactly. The works that save are a manifestation of God which wills and works through us. Yet I do not see this message changing over the course of time in Paul's epistles. I see His epistles consistently speaking that message.

We have faith, yet our faith is ours because it has been given as a gift of God. 1 Corinthians 12 speaks on that as clear as crystal. Those 1 Cor 12 works are things we do, yet we do them because they have been gifted through us. So because Paul speaks of "your faith" and "faith of Christ" doesn't mean he is talking about separate things. They are both the same thing.

And as you demonstrate, the works that save have saving power in the sense that they are opposite of the evil works done in in the previous old man. If we are saying we have faith and are working evil anyway, that faith is not complete as to what was intended by faith....salvation.

Good stuff rose.

  Seth you simplified it  great !  
I agree , also we are to be carful how we handle the Word of Truth

  we  see  alot the same things  in the same way  :thumbsup:

  we cannot  do anything against the Truth but for the Truth

 and thats a great work /cause  for the Glory of God and His   Son Christ / annointed .....   :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel, of which WE ARE.

Romans 2
13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, BY NATURE may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ.
17 Lo! you are being denominated a Jew, and are resting on law, and are boasting in God,
18 and know the will, and are testing what things are of consequence, being instructed out of the law.
19 Besides, you have confidence in yourself to be a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.
21 You, then, who are teaching another, you are not teaching yourself! who are heralding not to be stealing, you are stealing!
22 who are saying not to be committing adultery, you are committing adultery! who are abominating idols, you are despoiling the sanctuary!
23 who are boasting in a law, through the transgression of the law you are dishonoring God!
24 For because of you the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations, according as it is written.
25 For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law's demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law.
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.


This agrees with EVERYTHING James says, and especially how he addresses his letter. It isn't about following the LETTER of the law, Lee. It is about the righteousness OF the law fulfilled BY NATURE (by the empowerment of the Spirit) in them who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and are therefore ISRAEL.

[rosered]

Rose do you believe in following all 640 penned laws of Moses??? In "the bible"  ????

  Hi Lee ,
    they have their part Brother  , and many do  still  follow that course  of worship to God  
 I tend to  follow the   New Testament  more so   LOVE JESUS WORDS  
 the main  Law  Jesus  spoke of here  simplifies   everything  
in the nutshell  



Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?  


Mat 22:37   Jesus said unto him,you shall love the Lord your God with all your  heart, and with all your  soul, and with all your mind. 


Mat 22:38   This is the first and great commandment.  


Mat 22:39   And the second [is] like unto it, you  shall love your neighbour as yourself. 

Mat 22:40   On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.  
I see that as filfilling all the   Law in Christ .. :HeartThrob:
IMO..... :HeartThrob:

[rosered]

James is written to the 12 Tribes of Israel, of which WE ARE.

Romans 2
13 For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
14 For whenever they of the nations that have no law, BY NATURE may be doing that which the law demands, these, having no law, are a law to themselves,
15 who are displaying the action of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying together and their reckonings between one another, accusing or defending them,
16 in the day when God will be judging the hidden things of humanity, according to my evangel, through Jesus Christ.
17 Lo! you are being denominated a Jew, and are resting on law, and are boasting in God,
18 and know the will, and are testing what things are of consequence, being instructed out of the law.
19 Besides, you have confidence in yourself to be a guide of the blind, a light of those in darkness,
20 a discipliner of the imprudent, a teacher of minors, having the form of knowledge and the truth in the law.
21 You, then, who are teaching another, you are not teaching yourself! who are heralding not to be stealing, you are stealing!
22 who are saying not to be committing adultery, you are committing adultery! who are abominating idols, you are despoiling the sanctuary!
23 who are boasting in a law, through the transgression of the law you are dishonoring God!
24 For because of you the name of God is being blasphemed among the nations, according as it is written.
25 For circumcision, indeed, is benefiting if you should be putting law into practice, yet if you should be a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 If the Uncircumcision, then, should be maintaining the just requirements of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 And the Uncircumcision who, by nature, are discharging the law's demands, shall be judging you, who through letter and circumcision, are a transgressor of law.
28 For not that which is apparent is the Jew, nor yet that which is apparent in flesh is circumcision;
29 but that which is hidden is the Jew, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, whose applause is not of men, but of God.


This agrees with EVERYTHING James says, and especially how he addresses his letter. It isn't about following the LETTER of the law, Lee. It is about the righteousness OF the law fulfilled BY NATURE (by the empowerment of the Spirit) in them who are circumcised in the heart by the Spirit and are therefore ISRAEL.

Good stuff , Seth 
you did clarify   MUCH better on this  :HeartThrob:

[HartleyDamboiseII]

Ok then you are a Jew but I am a Frenchman and was never born of Jewish blood. so I am a Gentile, so we are different, that is ok. I don't mind.

I have always wanted to ask a Jew who do you bring your animals to now, to do your sacrifices in a temple that ain't there anymore, sense you didn't ever acknowledge The Christ ever coming, how do you wipe your sins away for the "year" now. Under your system in the present time. I know how I do it as a believer in The Christ. I just want to ask a Jew how is it done today? absolutely no offense intended, just wonder about their system

[Seth]

I have always wanted to ask a Jew who do you bring your animals to now, to do your sacrifices in a temple that ain't there anymore, sense you didn't ever acknowledge The Christ ever coming, how do you wipe your sins away for the "year" now. Under your system in the present time. I know how I do it as a believer in The Christ. I just want to ask a Jew how is it done today? absolutely no offense intended, just wonder about their system

Do you mean a Jew according to the flesh, or that which is circumcised in the heart by the Spirit? Because it still seems that you disagree with Romans 2:28-29.