The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[thinktank]

I believe in soul sleep, but I am open to the possibility that unbelivers who die in their sins go to a place called hell or the bottomless pit awaiting judgment, I think this is what Gary from tentmaker belives, this makes sense from a certain viewpoint, but it would have to mean that the lake of fire would be a spiritual fire, because the dead would be brought out of hell and then lifted up to the great white throne to be judged, no flesh can live to see God, so they cannot be flesh and blood human beings, raised from the dead from hell. Satan and his angels are cast into the lake of fire also and these beings are spiritual, so how can a fallen angel, where angels are described as ministering spirits, be thrown into a physical fire upon the Earth?

I do have a possible answer to my question, if I go with soul sleep, but I want to know what you think?

[reFORMer]

No saints have gone on before us. John said only Christ has ascended and Peter said David did not ascend. The Jewish saints don't go to heaven anyway. They remain on the earth after being resurrected and go into the kingdom to be established on the earth. The saints of the nations assemble as one complete group to the Lord in the air when He returns.

So, though I'm born again, if I am at least 51% descended racially from Abraham that means I will be left behind when your tradition's rapture occurs?

No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?

"And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven." (Jn 3^1-3, CLT)

"And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be." (Jn 14³, CLT)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who blesses us with every spiritual blessing among (lit., entos 'in' pl.) the celestials (or, 'heavenlies,") in Christ" (Eph 1³, CLT)

"...yet God, being rich in mercy, because of His vast love with which He loves us (we also being dead to the offenses and the lusts), vivifies us together in Christ (in grace are you saved!) and rouses us together and seats us together among (lit., entos 'in' pl.) the celestials (or, 'heavenlies,') in Christ Jesus..." (Eph 2^4-6, CLT)

(These passages reveal the Concordant Literal's translators bias by putting "among' rather than "in" and using their three little lines sign with it indicating the plural.  Also, the word "celestials" for the plural "heaven" which could've been "heavenlies" or "heaven" with their three line symbol meaning it is plural for consistency.  To say we are seated, "Together among the celestials" sounds like these "celestial" could be angels among whom we are participating rather than other dimensions in which we have become alive.  It strongly favors later gnostic beliefs.)

No read my lips, no one but Jesus has gone to heaven. The Bible says so. Why believe old wives tales?

"I shall also be coming to apparitions and revelations of the Lord.  I am acquainted with a man in Christ, fourteen years before this, (whether in a body I am not aware, or outside of the body, I am not aware -- God is aware) such a one was snatched away to the third heaven." (2 Co 12^1-2,CLT)

"...and the tombs were opened. And many bodies of the reposing saints were roused, and, coming out of the tombs after His rousing, they entered into the holy city and are disclosed to many." (Mt 27^52-53, CLT)

[reFORMer]

When I am born from above, my spirit in union with the Spirit of God inhabits my body together with me. We are spiritually married, making us part of the bride of Christ. Individually, as a "new Man," we are no longer mere Adamic men; but are members of the body of the new man, Christ the Lord out from the heavens. "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone." (Ep 5:30, AV) "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:17, AV)  "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ." (1 Co 12:12, CLT)  These Scripture portions say we are one Spirit and one body with the Lord.

The following makes it clear we are located in the heavenlies (the celestials.)  Though many with some faith in Jesus are very lacking in experience of this Divine life we are partakers of it does not mean it is not a reality:
Ephesians 2:4-7 (AV)...
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we are born as humans (in Adam) we have an Adamic nature with its limitations.  We see out of the front of our head in only a narrow portion of the light (electromagnetic) spectrum.  And so it is with the limitations of the rest of our senses.  Born of the Spirit of God as parts of Messiah we have His nature.  We are born again with eyes to see God and to see by the means of God.  Yet, until "the redemption of the purchased possession," our body salvation, born physically of God in resurrection, we have a foretaste.  Then we shall "see Him as He is."

The "spiritual," or, "extended senses" come with being born of God spiritually when our souls are aligned with Him.  Many have little experience of these things.  They are never the less very real.  Visions, prophecy, supernatural powers, word of wisdom or knowledge:  These are sample of the Divine nature we may partake of now.  This is all of a life lived IN THE HEAVENLIES!

[thinktank]

When I am born from above, my spirit in union with the Spirit of God inhabits my body together with me. We are spiritually married, making us part of the bride of Christ. Individually, as a "new Man," we are no longer mere Adamic men; but are members of the body of the new man, Christ the Lord out from the heavens. "We are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bone." (Ep 5:30, AV) "He that is joined to the Lord is one spirit." (1 Co 6:17, AV)  "For even as the body is one and has many members, yet all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, thus also is the Christ." (1 Co 12:12, CLT)  These Scripture portions say we are one Spirit and one body with the Lord.

The following makes it clear we are located in the heavenlies (the celestials.)  Though many with some faith in Jesus are very lacking in experience of this Divine life we are partakers of it does not mean it is not a reality:
Ephesians 2:4-7 (AV)...
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

When we are born as humans (in Adam) we have an Adamic nature with its limitations.  We see out of the front of our head in only a narrow portion of the light (electromagnetic) spectrum.  And so it is with the limitations of the rest of our senses.  Born of the Spirit of God as parts of Messiah we have His nature.  We are born again with eyes to see God and to see by the means of God.  Yet, until "the redemption of the purchased possession," our body salvation, born physically of God in resurrection, we have a foretaste.  Then we shall "see Him as He is."

The "spiritual," or, "extended senses" come with being born of God spiritually when our souls are aligned with Him.  Many have little experience of these things.  They are never the less very real.  Visions, prophecy, supernatural powers, word of wisdom or knowledge:  These are sample of the Divine nature we may partake of now.  This is all of a life lived IN THE HEAVENLIES!

Wow, you've changed your tune the holy spirit is truly at work within you, it is amazing how fast, keep being led by the spirit and he'll lead you into all truth

Blessed are you Reformer, for flesh and blood has not revealed this unto you but my father who art in heaven

[reFORMer]

The real Samuel was not called up by the witch of Endor.  Samuel was a man of God of rare qualifications.  He could not have been controlled by the witch to defy the precepts of the living God Who forbids necromancy.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: I always thought GOD allowed him to have what He wanted ie. the real Samuel (like the Israelites were fed quail), then used it to judge his flesh with. Blessings...

[thinktank]

What baffles me about that story, is that if that spirit wasn't samuel, which must be the case, then who?

Would a demon repeat what God said?

Maybe God used the demon to confirm to Samuel what he already knew.

[micah7:9]

The real Samuel was not called up by the witch of Endor.  Samuel was a man of God of rare qualifications.  He could not have been controlled by the witch to defy the precepts of the living God Who forbids necromancy.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[micah7:9]

What baffles me about that story, is that if that spirit wasn't samuel, which must be the case, then who?

Would a demon repeat what God said?

Maybe God used the demon to confirm to Samuel what he already knew.

i had wondered that myself, but in ISam 13 all was taken from Saul, he was told it was over; so nothing that was conjured up by the witch was nothing more that the fate that had already been dealt Saul. Saul's imagination, in his heart, was only being backed up with what he(Saul) already knew. Saul was seeking a different answer, one that would restore him.  :2c:

[CHB]

This might shed some light on this subject. This article talks about how everything on earth has a counterpart in heaven. He makes very good sense of this.


"Geography of Heaven"    http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d990501.htm

Even humans on earth have their counterparts in the form of angels in heaven. Jesus spoke of children having "their angels" (Matthew 18:10). Early Christians thought Peter had his own angel with the same appearance as Peter (Acts 12:15). The angel of the Prophet Samuel even went by the name "Samuel" (1 Samuel 28:11–15). What we will one day discover is that the earth is a pattern of heaven in a microcosm sense. The regions in heaven are more vast in extent, but the inhabitants are the same size as humans on earth. At the present there is as much diversity in heaven as on earth. There have been as many wars in heaven as we have had on earth. Soon, heaven will become pure as the Father and Christ are pure. All this will be given in my forthcoming book on "Angels." [Note: Dr. Martin did not complete his book on angels before his death in January 2002.  DWS]

CHB

[Nathan]

Tony stated . . .
No Samuel was not brought back to life. That was a familiar spirit the witch brought up. Also, King Saul could not see that spirit, only the witch could in her own mind

Oh Tony . . .the only way I would say something like this was if I was trying to maintian my own doctrine . . but I'm sorry, that's not at all what Scripture stated.  Not at all.  There is absolutely no indication that it was a familiar spirit.  Even Scripture stated "Samuel said" .. . no.  It's not going to fly at all.

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out at the top of her voice and said to Saul, "Why have you deceived me? You are Saul!"
13 The king said to her, "Don't be afraid. What do you see?"
      The woman said, "I see a spirit [a] coming up out of the ground."
14 "What does he look like?" he asked.
      "An old man wearing a robe is coming up," she said.
      Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground.  15 Samuel said to Saul, "Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?"     "I am in great distress," Saul said. "The Philistines are fighting against me, and God has turned away from me. He no longer answers me, either by prophets or by dreams. So I have called on you to tell me what to do."  16 Samuel said, "Why do you consult me, now that the LORD has turned away from you and become your enemy?

If it was only in her mind, how could Saul have a direct conversation?  Why would Scripture state "And Samuel said . . ."

No familiar spirit.  The woman used unauthorized means to bring him up.  Not much different than many churches using unauthorized means to cast out demons, heal the sick . .so on and so forth . . .

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the person who does what my Father in heaven wants. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name? Didn't we force out demons and do many miracles by the power and authority of your name?' 23Then I will tell them publicly, 'I've never known you. Get away from me, you evil people.'

First of all, when a person dies the bible says that their spirit returns to God Who gave it. God is not in the ground. The witch only saw a vision. Samuel's real spirit could not have come up from the ground as the witch said. As I said before, it was just a familiar spirit. Just like when Christ was transfigured before the three disciples and the disciples saw Moses and Elijah speaking with Christ. But it was just a vision and Christ told them to tell no one of the vision.

I'm also quite sure Saul did not hear that familiar spirit but used the medium to relay the information.

I think part of my problem in your doctrine Paul is that you seem to jump back and forth from what's literal which is the fact you point out the spirit came up from the ground rather than down from heaven . . .which may or may not have significance . . . to adding things in that Scripture never said . . .so that you're belief can remain intact.  Because you changed to assume that Saul spoke to the spirit through the witch, even though Scripture isn't saying that specifically.

You're kind of flip flopping on your reasoning while trying at the same time to make it sound absolute.  I'm still waiting for someone to explain how they can come to a conclusion that it wasn't Samuel when Scripture literally states that it was.

When I go off on you dimensionally, I purposefully don't use Scripture as my platform or source for what I see.  I know that sounds like I'm discrediting the Scriptures again but I'm really not.  I believe strongly that the Word of God is IN me.  So when the Spirit REVEALS the Word from within . . .then I find the Scriptures are in alignment or agreement. 

But I don't base what I see on what I read, I base it on what I see from within first.  From the sound of his voice that speaks out images in my spirit.  At which point, the spirit will often times also lead me into passages that are indeed saying the same thing, but it's lying beneath the literal words being written.

I see Scripture on different dimensions.  But when you've already made it clear in previous conversations that one should rely more on what Scripture says first . . .I'm confused as to how you can then turn and say "We're to assume"  . . .like in this instance . . Saul isn't really talking directly to Samuel . . .he's not talking directly to this assumed familar spirit . . but he's talking to the witch, who's talking to the familiar spirit, who then responds not to Saul but to the witch, who then relays the message back to Samuel . . .prophesying of Saul's demise . . .which even more strangely, comes to pass to the letter of what was prophesied.

So . .now either God did allow Samuel to speak DIRECTLY to Saul who then  . . .because he is VERY connected to the goings on in the natural because he's still very much ALIVE in the spirit was able to prophesy Sauls demise . ..OR .. . demons can prophesy God's plan to people who go to witches.  Which one would you prefer to build your faith on?

[thinktank]

Interesting stuff on that website cb. I enjoy things like that.

Could make sense that there have been wars in heaven.

Dragon and his angels fought in heaven but michael the great prince prevailed and cast him down.

Also I've noticed that christ does not say theres a new earth but says there will be a new heaven and earth.

I've allways wondered why the need for a new heaven, does God want it redecorated.
Because satan and his angels have been thrown out. Maybe God is speaking about the Earthly heaven because Satan goes to and fro and is the prince and power of the air.

[reFORMer]

You're very possibly going to even lose your life if you come under the doctrine of devils.  Is that the will of God?

[thinktank]

I think part of my problem in your doctrine Paul is that you seem to jump back and forth from what's literal which is the fact you point out the spirit came up from the ground rather than down from heaven . . .which may or may not have significance . . .

Nathan

I tend to believe in soul sleep and the spirit or energy goes back to God, but if we do have a spirit that walks around like Obiwan kenobi, then from this point here I could argue that the spirit of Samuel comes up from the ground, because he came from hell(abyss not ET), being of Jewish descent perhaps he was in Abraham's bossom. I've heard somewhere that Abraham's bossom is located in hell, just a thought. :2c:

[eaglesway]

All scripture is God breathed(Paul to Timothy).....
Holy men moved of God spake by the Holy Ghost(Peter to the church at large)

That is until it conflicts with some logic construct of man-made doctrine of systematic theology

The narrator of the book of Samuel is the Holy Ghost.


And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods(elohiym-mighty ones) ascending out of the earth. And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day. Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines. Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
(1Sa 28:12-20)

Whatever a person believes about the spirit and the soul after death- the Holy Spirit is the narrator of the history and in no place is there even the slightest indication of any other thing than that the soul/being/person/mind of Samuel was speaking to Saul. The fulfillment of Samuels prophecy to Saul is a confirming factor as well. The surprise of the witch is also. I would rather speak with an attitude of inquiry and uncertainty than insist that the plain face of the word cannot be plain because it does not agree with my theology.

The narrator said, "....because of the words of Samuel".

But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
(2Pe 1:20-21)

[CHB]

eaglesway, what if the angel... or god as the witch said she saw...name was Samuel? It is a possibility. What if there are angels with the same name as we all have?  It was an angel that did most of the speaking for God but in most instances it appears to actually be God himself speaking.

CHB

[Tony N]

eaglesway, there are many "psychics" on T.V. who supposedly talk to the dead. Are we to believe them if dear old aunt Sally, who was killed in a car crash, comes back from the dead and tells the audience there is a place of eternal torment in hell fire and damnation?

"The dead know nothing." Therefore it is impossible for Samuel, who was dead at the time Saul went to the witch, to have known anything about Saul's predicament. It was just a familiar spirit.

[Nathan]

I've been out of the loop for the last couple days, which appears that this thread has been quiet as well.  But even in the latest comments, I've yet to see anyone use Scripture to accurately explain why it is that you continue to claim it's either an angel, spirit, or demonic deception when, as Eaglesway's last post clearly highlights that the author of the text is distinctly pointing out it was not a familiar spirit, it was not his angel, it was not anything but Samuel himself. 

Of course it would have to be his spirit in the sense that his flesh is dead and buried.  Soul sleep isn't really a solid answer due to the fact that it to, is theory.  But I don't want to derail this into that, I simply have asked for someone to explain to me why you can take something that Scripture says is "this" and try to convince me that it's actually saying "that". 

"If" this is a familiar spirit . . .then why would Scripture not be pointing that out here?  It gives no indication that this was anyone other than Samuel.  I really think that there is a reliance on a doctrine from one verse (dead know nothing) that is threatening the accuracy of other verses as a result.

For me, there are too many other passages that point to the fact that just because a man stops breathing doesn't mean the man stops existing.  There's no indicatio of dormancy.  In fact, from what I've seen and read, life continues on after our time in this realm comes to an end.  We continue to exist, just in another dimension from this one we're in now.

This issue is almost like it doesn't matter what Scripture says here, that's not what it means because if it meant what it says, then that would interfere with a doctrine of death . . .and I say, so be it.  I'd rather let go of a doctrine, which is merely a choice of what to believe . . .than to become defiant against what appears to be pretty plain.

Again, it surprises me that I'm the one defending written Scripture because I for one, pursue patterns over literal quotations due to the fact that spiritual truth is revealed inwardly rather than filtered through natural means of understanding.

If you have a revelation that Samuel was not raised from the dead, then Scripture would also support that as well.  But in this case, it's not being presented as a revelation, rather it's being presented as something conflicting with another passage . . .or belief of what another passage is saying.

[micah7:9]

I dont believe it can be answered any better than

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.

1Sa 25:1  And Samuel dieth, and all Israel are gathered, and mourn for him, and bury him in his house, in Ramah;
:2c:

[Nathan]

I dont believe it can be answered any better than

Ecc 9:5  For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward, for their remembrance hath been forgotten.

1Sa 25:1  And Samuel dieth, and all Israel are gathered, and mourn for him, and bury him in his house, in Ramah;
:2c:

Yeah, I'm aware of that "one" verse that continues to be used as the platform to reject all other ideas that there is life after death.  How about looking at the whole context? 

Eccl. 9
3 It seems so tragic that everyone under the sun suffers the same fate. That is why people are not more careful to be good. Instead, they choose their own mad course, for they have no hope. There is nothing ahead but death anyway. 4 There is hope only for the living. As they say, "It's better to be a live dog than a dead lion!"
5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6 Whatever they did in their lifetime—loving, hating, envying—is all long gone. They no longer play a part in anything here on earth. 7 So go ahead. Eat your food with joy, and drink your wine with a happy heart, for God approves of this! 8 Wear fine clothes, with a splash of cologne! 9 Live happily with the woman you love through all the meaningless days of life that God has given you under the sun. The wife God gives you is your reward for all your earthly toil. 10 Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom.

So, out of this we are going to base our theology that there is no knowledge in death?  Look at the over-all message he's saying.  Are we also then to beleive that we might as well live however we want because it's all pointless and we're going to just die and blow away anyway?

This is the result of living in the Old Covenant system.  It's not establishing truth at all.  It's not looking forward in hope.  It's not even looking forward.  The author is sharing a point of view from the state of mind he's in.  There's no way I would pick a verse out of this and build a theory that there's no knowledge beyond death.

Are we forgetting that Jesus reversed this line of thinking?  Was not his message about life and abundant life?  Resurrection from the state of death?  And yet you want to try to convince others that even though you can receive life in this realm of death, when you die, everything you received amounts to nothing?  This is not the message Jesus left us with.  it's not his nature that we become forgotten, that we just deteriorate and fade away. 

Choose to believe that your soul is going to just rot away in the grave if you wish, but for me, I believe life has come where death once ruled.  I choose to beleive when this body gives it's last breath, the spirit within it will be transported into the realm of abundant life without the limitations of the realm of carnality or flesh.

I also choose to beleive when Scripture states it was Samuel who was raised from the dead, that it was Samuel who was raised from the dead.  I find it so puzzling to see people reject this form of resurrection and embrace a doctrine of death.  I find it even more puzzling that people also choose to believe demons or the demonic realm prophecies God's plan to men.  It's a bit troubling, really. 

Many posts have been put out in confidence that what's being said is truth when what's been written is being pushed aside, assumptions are replacing the very words written and a different message is being presented as doctrine. 

For me to believe it was anything other than Samuel, requires me to deny what's been written in the first place.  Can an ungodly person raise someone from the dead?  I'd use this very passage as an example that it can happen, but obviously, people here choose to brush off the fact that Scripture states it happened in this passage so I guess it wouldn't do much good to reference it.

However, as I first stated at the beginning before I realized what the other belief on this was . . .that Jesus did refer to people who exercise in the ministering gifts without the true authority of the Spirit as those whom he states to "depart from me, I never knew you". 

Scripture also says the tongue has the power to bring death "and" to bring life.  It doesn't say only a godly tongue, but "any" tongue.  So for me, it was a witch that did indeed bring Samuel back to life and prophecy Saul's demise.  The other verse used to defend the idea that in death there is no knowledge, as far as I'm concerned, is not a passage establishing truth from a resurrected state.

When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning.  But my spirit lives on.  My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead.  But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being.  Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on.

[thinktank]

So what do you think happens to a person in the old testament Nathan?

Also what happens from your view after death, of a person who has lived in 1700AD who dies without knowing or believing in Jesus Christ, do they sleep?

[micah7:9]

You said, "When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning.  But my spirit lives on.  My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead.  But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being.  Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on."
"But to say "I" go into a state of dormancy....."
Nathan I believe this verse will help.

Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

[Nathan]

You said, "When this body dies, when this brain stops functioning, everything it's retain in the natural sense, stops functioning.  But my spirit lives on.  My body is buried in a grave, my skin decomposes, "that" is where knowledge stops and wisdom no longer passes through . .because this flesh is dead.  But to say that "I" go into a state of dormancy is throwing the baby out with the bath water . . .I'm a multi-dimensional being.  Flesh dies, the rest of me lives on."
"But to say "I" go into a state of dormancy....."
Nathan I believe this verse will help.

Ecc 12:7  And the dust returneth to the earth as it was, And the spirit returneth to God who gave it.

Are you using this to support the sleep?  Or to support knowledge after death?  I use this to support the fact that there "is" knowledge and wisdom.  That this was where Samuel's spirit went when he died, which is why he knew what Saul's demise would be.  He was in the realm where God resided, so when the witch called him back over to our realm, he already knew what would happen to Saul because he was now dwelling in the realm where everything was already finished.

[micah7:9]

Samuel died, dead ISam.25:1. If you read I Sam.15:26- you will see that Samuel already told Saul the Lord was through with him, met his demise as you say.
Later when Saul goes to see the witch, the Lord dont work with witches. Well, the witch does her congerin and Sauls mind indulges in his imagination, hoping he will get a positive word.
Anyway, IF Samuel would have been brought forth, it would have been brought DOWN, not up. The spirit of Samuel returned to the God who gave it.
The dead no not anything.
Rom 6:6  this knowing, that our old man was crucified with him , that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
You are ALIVE in Christ, right?
1Co 15:55  where, O Death, thy sting? where, O Hades, thy victory?'
Dont know if this helps. Peace and Love Through Jesus

[Nathan]

No, but thanks for trying . .. I still believe if it were anything other than Samuel, Scripture would not have stated it was Samuel talking to Saul.  It would have stated that it was a familiar spirit deceiving Saul.  I'm still thinking the perception about death on the other passages is what's not quite in alignment.  That's the thing about perception, if it's accurate, all of Scripture will harmonize with it.  If it's not, there will be areas where it just won't fit.  For me, this is one of them and there's still not been any explanation that answers the question why is Scripture stating it was Samuel if it wasn't.