The lake of fire or Le lac de feu

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony
    The 'bad enough' was wood, hay and stubble....garbage that cannot stand the test of the day, i.e. the fire of the light, as Jesus' eyes of fire lay all things bare (in my view). All they had to do was assert their righteousness, that was bad enough- "if you were blind, you would have no sin- because you say you see your sin remains". While I agree that Gehenna was a literal place- so also is Jerusalem, yet we have come to Zion and to the heavenly Jerusalem, and the many prophecies concerning Jerusalem, our mother, from above, who is free, who is coming down out of heaven- a city with foundations, made without hands, etc. ....... these same prophetic illustrations or parallels may apply to Gehenna, for I do believe that Jesus accompanied these threats with the exclamation, "Who has warned you to flee from the wrath to come". This "orge"(wrath) or 'reaching forth/passion', against those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" is, again, in my view, similar to the orge manifest against the angels in Jude, who "left their proper dominion" and are held in chains, reserved for sentencing, (as I see it) for their date with the LOF. Are you saying that God raises the dead to the GWT judgment just to "kill" all over again the ones whose names are not written in the Lamb's book? Have I misunderstood? Are you an annihilationist?....peace John

[micah7:9]

The Revelation of Jesus Christ is an uncovering for the overcomer, it is showing and telling those who have ears to hear, this is the way. It is lit by fire, and as fire thrusts its way through the stubble, hay and wood. The Book will cause the wisdom of the wise to stumble and grope in the darkness of the frail mind of man.

Isa 35:5  Then opened are eyes of the blind, And ears of the deaf are unstopped,
Isa 35:6  Then leap as a hart doth the lame, And sing doth the tongue of the dumb, For broken up in a wilderness have been waters, And streams in a desert.

[peacemaker]

Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition.

So, he spoke literally, not Spiritually?  :coffee2:

The state of dying has always been obscured by mystery or superstition; its precise definition
remains controversial, differing in accordance to the culture or legal systems of men.

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition

Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1  And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2  and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:

Mat 18:1  At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire.  This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.

[eaglesway]

`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
(Mat 10:28)

[Tony N]

Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition

Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1  And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2  and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:

Mat 18:1  At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire.  This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.

Thanks micah,
The sermon on the mount, though spoken to His disciples was concerning the rules which will be in force for all Jews during the millennium.

Here is something of interest:
Isa 66:23-24  And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh."  (24)  And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

The above verse is not for the disciples. They are not the ones who are required to bring the monthly quota to Jerusalem but the nations. And look what happens to those who transgress.

But the above threats are not about the lake of fire.

[Tony N]

`And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.
(Mat 10:28)

Correct eaglesway, Gehenna, not the lake of fire. By "soul" in the verse you quote I believe it is concerning the enjoyment of the blessings being cut off and their bodies being destroyed in Gehenna. But I believe they are not killed IN Gehenna but prior to that and that there dead bodies are then dumped into Gehenna to be disposed of as rubbish.

Gehenna is not about the lake of fire.

And the believer who builds improperly on the foundation wood, hay, stubble, their works will be burned up yet they shall be saved yet thus AS through fire. It doesn't say they will be saved through fire but as it were through fire. It is a figure of speech. You dig man? You hip to my trip?  :laughing7:

[micah7:9]

Quote from: Tony N on Today at 07:58:49 PM
Jesus warned the Jews about a literal Gehenna which will surely be part of the millennial reign of Christ. Gehenna was used by Christ as a threat to the people that if they do something bad enough they will end up in that trash dump in an unburried condition

Jesus spoke this to His disciples.
Mat 5:1  And having seen the multitudes, he went up to the mount, and he having sat down, his disciples came to him,
Mat 5:2  and having opened his mouth, he was teaching them, saying:

Mat 18:1  At that hour came the disciples near to Jesus, saying, `Who, now, is greater in the reign of the heavens?'
No sir, it was the disciples he instructed about Gehenna fire.  This fire, which is judgement fire (decisions) is for those who are following as disciples.

Thanks micah,
The sermon on the mount, though spoken to His disciples was concerning the rules which will be in force for all Jews during the millennium.

Here is something of interest:
Isa 66:23-24  And it comes, according to the monthly quota in its month, and according to the sabbath quota in its sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me in Jerusalem,says Yahweh."  (24)  And they fare forth and see the corpses of the mortals, the transgressors against Me, for their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they become a repulsion to all flesh."

The above verse is not for the disciples. They are not the ones who are required to bring the monthly quota to Jerusalem but the nations. And look what happens to those who transgress.

But the above threats are not about the lake of fire.

I believe it is.

[eaglesway]

 Hi Tony

I think I see where you're coming from. Ever read Sir Anthony Buzzard?

However, I don't see the need for your distinction(as to when they are killed) since the verse says destroy(apollumi) the body and soul in Gehenna. The soul, according to your own perspective(not mine), ceases to exist when a person is "killed", so if they are killed before being tossed into Gehenna the soul cannot be destroyed in Gehenna- making Jesus incorrect or careless in expression.

However, if the soul is destroyed IN Gehenna, just as it reads- then Gehenna may represent something like the LOF, or the LOF itself- where the worm(O worm Jacob) does not die and the fire is not quenched(also a figure).

Also, the expression "as passing through fire" is a figure of speech- agreed. What the figure represents may be disagreed upon. He will separate the wheat from the chaff( I believe chaff and wood, hay & stubble are the same) and burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. That fire is the light of day that consumes the darkness(1 Cor 3:13-15).

The chaff comes off the kernel- you and I are each the wheat and the chaff. We have to be separated by a good beating with the winnowing fork so that the chaff (which when still intact makes us unusable) can be knocked off, blown away by the fan, and burned.

Then the remaining kernel of wheat can be made into bread or whatever(becomes usable).

In planting, the chaff is dealt with when the life within the kernel burst through the chaff, cracking it. The seed grows and again the chaff is cast off, consumed by the earth. There is no multiplication of chaff, it just contains the  precious incorruptible seed.

I don't see how the annihilation position fulfills Eph 1:10, Col 1:15-20, Rev 5:13, Phil 2:9-1, Rom. 11:32-36 and a bunch of other verses. I have some close friends who are biblical unitarians and  have studied the view for annihilation pretty thoroughly- I don't agree.     Peace, John

[Tony N]

Hi Tony

I think I see where you're coming from. Ever read Sir Anthony Buzzard?

However, I don't see the need for your distinction(as to when they are killed) since the verse says destroy(apollumi) the body and soul in Gehenna. The soul, according to your own perspective(not mine), ceases to exist when a person is "killed", so if they are killed before being tossed into Gehenna the soul cannot be destroyed in Gehenna- making Jesus incorrect or careless in expression.

However, if the soul is destroyed IN Gehenna, just as it reads- then Gehenna may represent something like the LOF, or the LOF itself- where the worm(O worm Jacob) does not die and the fire is not quenched(also a figure).

None of the righteous will stand before the Great White Throne nor be cast into the lake of fire. So I doubt the disciples would have taken Gehenna to be the LoF.

eaglesway, just curious what you think about this quote:

"KILLING THE SOUL


"AND be not afraid of those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him rather Who is able to destroy the soul and the body in Gehenna" (Matt.10:28).

     "The Lord's disciples would have little difficulty in understanding this scripture from their viewpoint: our inability arises from the attempt to adjust it to our standpoint.

     "Strictly speaking, the soul cannot be "killed." It is only in figurative expressions in which the person is denoted by the "soul" that it is said to "die." It is notable that even in this passage God does not say that He is able to kill the soul, but to destroy it. At death the soul returns to the unseen. In fact, it has no separate existence. It is the effect of the union of body and spirit. When that union is dissolved the soul is no more. Sending it to the "imperceptible" is but another way of saying that it has passed out of existence so far as our senses are concerned.

     "But the Lord's disciples would look at this statement from a practical angle. Should they be killed what would be their experience? Though they should die yet their next conscious moment, when the soul returns in resurrection, would be the bliss of the kingdom. All that men can do to them is to cut them off from further suffering and usher them into their reward.

     "Not so with God. In the kingdom (and we lose much if we do not keep the kingdom constantly in view in reading the "gospels") death will mean much to those who deserve it. Not only will their bodies be destroyed in the fires of Gehenna, which will be the place of punishment in that age, but they will lose all the joys which the kingdom offers by the destruction of their souls.

     "Those killed by men escape suffering and awake to bliss: those destroyed by God forfeit bliss and awake to suffering at the bar of the great white throne.

     "Those who strive to enter that kingdom will have much need of this exhortation, for many, indeed, will enter the kingdom by way of the death of the body and the resurrection." (A.E. Knoch, Unsearchable Riches, vol.17, p.378).

Eaglesway wrote:
Also, the expression "as passing through fire" is a figure of speech- agreed. What the figure represents may be disagreed upon. He will separate the wheat from the chaff( I believe chaff and wood, hay & stubble are the same) and burn the chaff with unquenchable fire. That fire is the light of day that consumes the darkness(1 Cor 3:13-15).

That's an interesting way to look at it.

The chaff comes off the kernel- you and I are each the wheat and the chaff. We have to be separated by a good beating with the winnowing fork so that the chaff (which when still intact makes us unusable) can be knocked off, blown away by the fan, and burned.

Then the remaining kernel of wheat can be made into bread or whatever(becomes usable).

In planting, the chaff is dealt with when the life within the kernel burst through the chaff, cracking it. The seed grows and again the chaff is cast off, consumed by the earth. There is no multiplication of chaff, it just contains the  precious incorruptible seed.

What if we aren't wheat? What if we are rice? O.K. bad joke. I get the point.

eaglesway wrote:
I don't see how the annihilation position fulfills Eph 1:10, Col 1:15-20, Rev 5:13, Phil 2:9-1, Rom. 11:32-36 and a bunch of other verses. I have some close friends who are biblical unitarians and  have studied the view for annihilation pretty thoroughly- I don't agree.     Peace, John

I think we westerners have a different concept of "destroy" than the eastern mind. To them it meant to be loosed from a whole(some) situation such as a horse being let out of its corralle and left to roam on its own in the wilderness. It was be destroyed in the sense of falling over a cliff or dying of thirst or killed by a lion.

Those who enter into the second death are just dead, not annihilated never to be raised again from that death.

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony,

I agree that we have a different concept of "destroy" in the western mindset. This word "destroy" has had a lot of things written about it on the forum. Apollumi is used in some strikingly different ways in the 86 usages that come up when I search the N.T. usage in e-sword. For instance, in Mt 15:24 it is used of the "lost(apollumi) sheep of Israel". In Mt 10:29 He that finds his life shall "lose(apollumi)" it and he that "loses(apollumi)" his life for my sake shall find it. Most of the uses, however, communicate a meaning of death and dying. But in regards to killing the soul(tho I am not sure "kill" is the best translation of apollumi), I have a couple of observations.

If killing the soul is a complete loss of consciousness, why should one "fear" the second death. Why would it be better to have ones eye plucked out. But, if(as in my view) the destruction of the soul in the LOF has to do with the "tearing down of strongholds and imaginations that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God" then it makes more sense to me, because "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess". To resurrect people just to kill them again and then to resurrect them a second time later makes no sense to me.

Also, I believe that many righteous from the ages before Christ and some from this age who never heard His word will stand before the GWT, as it clearly states in Romans "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ".This to me is speaking of the GWT, for no other such "DAY" qualifies unto Romans 2:15,16. As it continues, God is no respecter of persons. For it is not the hearers of the law who are justified, but the doers. Those who obeyed having never heard, were a law unto themselves, showing the law written on their hearts, and will be as the sheep. Those whose conscience condemns them, who violated the law of God written in their hearts  will be as the goats, and go into the LOF, until they bow the knee- come under subjection. When all is subject to Christ as Lord, he will return all thngs to the Father and all rule power and authority will be abolished, because God will be all in all in a universal harmony of free wills.


Also, (in my view) those believers who do not abide and persevere in Christ will "lose their reward"(1 Cor 3:12-17) IMO this reward is escaping the "hour of trial"(GWT) that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth. These who lose their reward will be kicked back to the second resurrection and the GWT, saved but as through the flames(flames = krisis, tribunal, judgment, discernment....His eyes are as flames of fire...He tries the reigns and the hearts....all things are laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do) They do not go into the LOF-but they lose something in the tribunal. Only the overcomers in Christ will participate in the first resurrection(this is the patience of the saints).


If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile(phtheiro) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(phtheiro-wither, waste, ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(1Co 3:15-17)

better translation- "If any man ruin/wither God's temple God will ruin/wither Him".

Paul's statement , taken in the proper context with preceding verses, concerns false teachers, not smokers ;o)

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered(xeraino- shrivel, wither, dessicate); and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:6) I think this is similar- not speaking of the LOF, but of the krisis examination wherein we lose reward before the judgement seat of Christ,

2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

We see through a glass darkly, and the same fuzzy images may appear one way to one....another way to another.

This is all by way of explaining myself, not by way of trying to convince you of anything. If anything I write resonates, great. I assure you I read your posts with an openess to such a resonance as well. Peace, John

[Tony N]

Hi Tony,
If killing the soul is a complete loss of consciousness, why should one "fear" the second death. Why would it be better to have ones eye plucked out. But, if(as in my view) the destruction of the soul in the LOF has to do with the "tearing down of strongholds and imaginations that exalt themselves against the true knowledge of God" then it makes more sense to me, because "every knee shall bow and every tongue confess". To resurrect people just to kill them again and then to resurrect them a second time later makes no sense to me.

Tony replied: Hi eaglesway, It it interesting that we do agree on so much. My take on this is Jesus wasn't talking about the second death when He spoke about destroying soul and body in Gehenna. He was talking about Gehenna. Gehenna is in play only during the millennium. The LoF comes at the end of the millennium. Neither does the LoF have to do with "tearing down strongholds and imaginations." That has to do with the weapons of our warfare: "For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful to God toward the pulling down of bulwarks;  pulling down reckonings and every height elevating itself against the knowledge of God, and leading into captivity every apprehension into the obedience of Christ," (2Cor.10:4,5).

God is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death.  So the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?

Also, (getting back to Ray Prinzing) Ray said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine, someone standing before the GWT and the Lord saying, "Have I got a deal for you! The second death is soooo much greater than the first death."
Litigent: Um, Lord, I didn't think the first death was so great.
Lord: Well, it wasn't. But the second death will be so much better.
Litigent: How can one death be better than another death?
Lord: Well, in the first death you just sort of died but in the second death you are really, really going to die in a much better way than the first.
Litigent: How is that possible?
Lord: In the second death you won't really be dead.
litigent: That sounds odd. Why is it called "death" then?
Lord: Well, I guess I wasn't thinking it through when I told John.
Litigent: That's assuring.
Lord: Anyway, while you are dead you will actually be alive to learn righteousness.
Litigent: I don't want to learn righteousness.
Lord: That's because you are dead.
Litigent: But won't I be dead when I'm dead again?
Lord: Yes *blush* but, umm, *blush* you'll be dead alive.
Litigent: Dead alive?
Lord: *blush* well, um, yea. Just trust me on this one. You'll just be spiritually dead.
litigent: Wasn't I spiritually dead the first time?
Lord: *blush* Look, I just make the rules here!

eagle wrote: Also, I believe that many righteous from the ages before Christ and some from this age who never heard His word will stand before the GWT, as it clearly states in Romans "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day when God will judge the secrets of mens hearts by Jesus Christ".This to me is speaking of the GWT, for no other such "DAY" qualifies unto Romans 2:15,16. As it continues, God is no respecter of persons. For it is not the hearers of the law who are justified, but the doers. Those who obeyed having never heard, were a law unto themselves, showing the law written on their hearts, and will be as the sheep. Those whose conscience condemns them, who violated the law of God written in their hearts  will be as the goats, and go into the LOF, until they bow the knee- come under subjection. When all is subject to Christ as Lord, he will return all thngs to the Father and all rule power and authority will be abolished, because God will be all in all in a universal harmony of free wills.

The sheep and goat analogy is reserved only for those who mistreated Christ's brethren when He comes back to judge those nations as to how they treated His brethren during their great tribulation (Matt.25:31-46). That judgment is not about the GWT. Also, no one ever perfectly did the law aside from Christ. Paul lumps those with law and those without law to all be under sin and all sinned and want of the glory of God and none are righteous he wrote (Romans 3:9-20). The remedy for their condition is given in Romans 3:21,22 and Romans 5:18,19. The remedy given is not the great white throne nor Gehenna.

eagle wrote: Also, (in my view) those believers who do not abide and persevere in Christ will "lose their reward"(1 Cor 3:12-17) IMO this reward is escaping the "hour of trial"(GWT) that will come upon all those who dwell on the earth. These who lose their reward will be kicked back to the second resurrection and the GWT, saved but as through the flames(flames = krisis, tribunal, judgment, discernment....His eyes are as flames of fire...He tries the reigns and the hearts....all things are laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do) They do not go into the LOF-but they lose something in the tribunal. Only the overcomers in Christ will participate in the first resurrection(this is the patience of the saints).

As to the Uncircumcision believers: "There is no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus." While they may lose a reward they cannot lose their eonian life for it was gratuitously given and so was never earned and cannot be lost due to not doing such and such. I think you are confusing the Circumcision believers with those of the Uncircumcision when you write about "the overcomers." If they do not remain faithful to the end they cannot be saved (for eonian life.)

eagle wrote: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile(phtheiro) the temple of God, him shall God destroy(phtheiro-wither, waste, ruin); for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
(1Co 3:15-17)
better translation- "If any man ruin/wither God's temple God will ruin/wither Him".

Paul's statement , taken in the proper context with preceding verses, concerns false teachers, not smokers ;o)

Yes! In the Concordant Literal the word there in 1 Cor.3:15-17 is not 'destroy' but "corrupt." The CLNT uses appolumi for "lose" and "destroy" and "perish." and phtheiro for "corrupt". So if anyone corrupts the temple made up of the plurality of believers, God will be corrupting that individual. Such an individual is corrupted in this lifetime. This is not talking about someone corrupting ones personal body by smoking or drugs or whatever as you well note.

The person whose work is burned up is a different event from the one who corrupts the temple of believers. That event of works being burned up takes place after the resurrection of the believers and then they stand before the bema or platform of Christ, not the great white throne.

eagle wrote: If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered(xeraino- shrivel, wither, dessicate); and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
(Joh 15:6) I think this is similar- not speaking of the LOF, but of the krisis examination wherein we lose reward before the judgement seat of Christ,

Tony's reply: Again the above in John 15:6 is concerned with the Circumcision believers, not the believers of the Uncircumcision a.k.a. believers of the nations. Also, I agree it is not concerning the LoF. The question though is: Do the men gather those people not abiding in the Vine and cast them into the fire or do men gather up dried up branches and cast those branches into a fire? and that is kind of like what Jesus was telling the disciples? And so Jesus uses those people as an illustration where "fire" could be something akin to a "fiery trial"?[/quote]

eagle wrote: "2Co 5:10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad."

This judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."

It is not the great white throne we must appear before.

eatle wrote: We see through a glass darkly, and the same fuzzy images may appear one way to one....another way to another.

This is all by way of explaining myself, not by way of trying to convince you of anything. If anything I write resonates, great. I assure you I read your posts with an openess to such a resonance as well. Peace, John

That's cool. :icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

God is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death.

So instead of resurrecting and instantly kill people, He resurrects them passes judgement and 5 minutes later He kills them again?

So the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?

When exactly do they learn righteousness?

Also, (getting back to Eby) Eby said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine

Can you imagine that you didn't fully grasp what Eby wrote? (Or others that view LoF differently that you)
Reading this remark from you "(as if the second death meant just spiritual death)" the answer likely is yes.

[Tony N]

God is not resurrecting people "just to kill them again" as you suggest and protest to, and which I never suggested. He is going to resurrect them prior to the new earth, and then judge them according to their acts and then, SINCE THEY ARE NOT IN THE BOOK OF LIFE, they will not be allowed to live during the new earth age and so must re-enter death.

WW replied: So instead of resurrecting and instantly kill people, He resurrects them passes judgement and 5 minutes later He kills them again?

Tony's reply: 4 minutes and 35.4 seconds later to be precise.

Tony wrote: So the second death is not life. It is death. Why would God resurrect the billions of dead people from Adam to the last man, keep them alive during the new earth in their new "dead" state (as if the second death meant just spiritual death) since such ones could never learn from God or about God since they would be "dead to God" ?

WW replied: When exactly do they learn righteousness?
Tony's reply: I doubt they will have to learn righteousness. When they are resurrected from the second death they will automatically be righteous, immortal and incorruptible and God will be All in them. I will take it for granted you already know Romans 5:18,19, 1 Corinthians 15.

Tony wrote: Also, (getting back to Ray Prinzing) Ray said the second death is greater than the first death. I mean, can you imagine

WW replied: Can you imagine that you didn't fully grasp what Ray wrote? (Or others that view LoF differently that you)
Reading this remark from you "(as if the second death meant just spiritual death)" the answer likely is yes.

Tony's reply: Actually, the proper answer is "No."

Ray wrote:
For God's seconds are never duplicates of the first, they are always better, higher, and more powerful than the firsts, and used to counter-balance all the action of the firsts, and MUCH MORE - He always saves the best until last.
Because - the second death is prepared to purge out and burn away sin and its results, and so doing cleanse all of God's universe.

Poppycock. The Bible never says such. Death is not a friend. It is an enemy.

And here we have a most egregious misuse of scripture on the planet by Ray:

'that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage' (Heb. 2:9,14-15).

As if Heb.2:9,14-15 is dealing with the second death that destroys death! The death in that passage is all about the death of Christ, not death itself. Gheesh!

You can view the whole post of Prizing here: http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=8145.250

[Molly]

This judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."

"dais"  "judgment seat" [of christ]  bema christos

G968
βῆμα
bēma
bay'-ma
From the base of G939; a step, that is, foot breath; by implication a rostrum, that is, tribunal: - judgment-seat, set [foot] on, throne.


G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.



John 12:13:

"Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him,"



"branches" [of palm trees]

G902
βαΐ́ον
baion
bah-ee'-on
A diminutive of a derivative probably of the base of G939; a palm twig (as going out far): - branch.

G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.




Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"stand" [before God

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.



Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand[histemi], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 3


amazing grace...

[Beloved Servant]

Amen Molly.

28 Hither to Me, all who are toiling and laden, and I will be giving you rest.
                                                                                                Matthew 11

[eaglesway]

Hi Tony,
   I see the great white throne occuring at the end of the millenial reign. To me making someone "re-enter death" is killing them again. In my timeline(which may or may not b correct), the first resurrection is for overcomers, the second resurrection is at the end of the 1,000 years and is for all the rest of the dead of all the ages. I have however considered that the judgment seat of Christ may be an occurrence that spans the millenial reign, separating wheat from tares. As I read the parables, it appears to be more universal than that- but I am open on the matter. I am not really that familiar with the writings of J. Preston Eby. Although I have read a couple good pieces by him, I find some of it to be speculative.
 
Again, I have considered the concept of Gehenna as occuring during the millenia...., altho I still definitely see spiritual implications to it, beyond the disposition of bodies- perhaps similar to Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting(aidos) chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
(Jud 1:6)

Peter uses this same term, concerning the present world being "reserved" for dissolution(luo) and ruin(apollumi) by fire

Also in 2 Pet 2:10-22 Peter uses this same concept of false teachers being somehow "reserved" for the great day and the judgment of God

Those who are in Gehenna may be reserved there upon further disposition.



"I will set a sign among them and will send survivors from them to the nations: Tarshish, Put, Lud, Meshech, Tubal and Javan, to the distant coastlands that have neither heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they will declare My glory among the nations. "Then they shall bring all your brethren from all the nations as a grain offering to the LORD, on horses, in chariots, in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem," says the LORD, "just as the sons of Israel bring their grain offering in a clean vessel to the house of the LORD. "I will also take some of them for priests and for Levites," says the LORD.(Isaih 66)

This seems to parallel Zechariah ch.12-ch.14 and and a few others like Rev 21:24, and Micah ch 4, which may concern the millenial kingdom, when "the mountain if the Lord will be raised above all the other mountains and the nations will say, 'Come let us go up to the mountain of the house of the Lord to learn His ways'...."

"For just as the new heavens and the new earth Which I make will endure before Me," declares the LORD, "So your offspring and your name will endure. "And it shall be from new moon to new moon And from sabbath to sabbath, All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the LORD. "Then they will go forth and look On the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm will not die And their fire will not be quenched; And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind."
(Isa 66:19-24)

and Daniel-

"While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts. "I kept looking Until thrones were set up, And the Ancient of Days took His seat; His vesture was like white snow And the hair of His head like pure wool. His throne was ablaze with flames, Its wheels were a burning fire. "A river of fire was flowing And coming out from before Him; Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him; The court sat, And the books were opened. "Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire. "As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
(Dan 7:8-12)
It is clear that there are several manifestations of "the burning fire".

When those verses are combined with Peter's


For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed(apollumi), being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away(veil in the heavens rolled back like a scroll) with a roar and the elements(elementary principles....same as Hebrews5:12, gal 4:3,8 and Col 2:8,20) will be destroyed(luo-dissolved) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. Since all these things are to be destroyed(luo- dissolved) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be destroyed(luo) by burning, and the elements(stoicheon-elementary principles) will melt with intense heat! But according to His promise we are looking for new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells.
(2Pe 3:5-13)

Since the things that are invisible are greater than the things that are seen, I think there are many layers of destruction being defined in these scriptures- all by light and fire....all involving the corrective judgment of God, and manifesting in several distinct ways.



I have not really majored in apocalyptic time sequences, because the principles of how God judges are more important to me than the exact administrations of them. Above all, the testimony that God has created the world for His "kind intention"(eudokia)- the "good news"(euaggelion) of the reconciliation of all through the blood of His cross is my primary focus. I do find these things very interesting to discuss tho. Especially the relationship of light and fire and harmony to and darkness and water and chaos.

I do not believe the dissolving by fire of the present world (reserved for fire) is any different than the ruining of the world that was formed out of water and destroyed (apollumi) by water. The earth and its works and the "stoicheon/elementary principles"... the rudiments of this world will be subjected, burned and transformed. Exposure of the hidden motives and the revelation of love to the corporate consciousness of man is the eventual goal of all this till "God be all in all".

I do think your limiting of the tearing down of strongholds and casting down imaginations to the weapons of our warfare is a narrow view. In Psalm 2 we see that this is God's purpose through out the ages, as the rulers of this world "imagine a vain thing" until the Lord exalts His anointed one- even the dispersion at Babel fits this foundation.

Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psa 2:9-12)

Of course, many of these things defy our concepts of time, limitation and definition. When John saw, in Rev 5:13, every created thing worshiping the one who sits on the throne even the Lamb, was he seeing the future? or was He transported into eternity, a realm beyond time, into the fulfillment of all things.

[Tony N]

This judgment seat is actually a raised platform such as was used in handing out awards:
2Co 5:10 "For all of us must be manifested in front of the dais of Christ, that each should be requited for that which he puts into practice through the body, whether good or bad."

"dais"  "judgment seat" [of christ]  bema christos

G968
βῆμα
bēma
bay'-ma
From the base of G939; a step, that is, foot breath; by implication a rostrum, that is, tribunal: - judgment-seat, set [foot] on, throne.


G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.



John 12:13:

"Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him,"



"branches" [of palm trees]

G902
βαΐ́ον
baion
bah-ee'-on
A diminutive of a derivative probably of the base of G939; a palm twig (as going out far): - branch.

G939
βάσις
basis
bas'-ece
From βαίνω bainō (to walk); a pace ("base"), that is, (by implication) the foot: - foot.




Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.


"stand" [before God

G2476
ἵστημι
histēmi
his'-tay-mee
A prolonged form of a primary word στάω staō (of the same meaning, and used for it in certain tenses); to stand (transitively or intransitively), used in various applications (literally or figuratively): - abide, appoint, bring, continue, covenant, establish, hold up, lay, present, set (up), stanch, stand (by, forth, still, up). Compare G5087.



Romans 5:2
By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand[histemi], and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.



21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

--Rev 3


amazing grace...

Molly, The Concordant makes a distinction between "thronos" and "bema" where "thronos" is "throne" and "bema" is "dais." Dais is a raised platform and "thronos" is the throne.

The believers of the nations will never stand before the Great White Thronos but will be presented before the "bema" or "dais" to receive rewards.

It is easy to just quote sources like you do and that is good for some things but it is better if you search these things out to see if they are so like the Bereans did.

The Great White Thronos is for those who are not in the body of Christ.

[Molly]

The Great White Thronos is for those who are not in the body of Christ.

Yes, that's what I was noticing in my little study there.  Thanks.

This idea that we are standing on something--the importance of the foot--where the foot is placed--a basis--determines relationship with Christ--the palm branches of peace and praise--the shoot moving out from the branch--we are standing on him, in him,  on his faith,  and therefore we will stand--


16And so the LORD says,

   "I'm laying a firm foundation

   for the city of Zion.

   It's a valuable cornerstone

   proven to be trustworthy;

   no one who trusts it

   will ever be disappointed.

--Isa 28

[Molly]

Molly, The Concordant makes a distinction between "thronos" and "bema" where "thronos" is "throne" and "bema" is "dais." Dais is a raised platform and "thronos" is the throne.

The believers of the nations will never stand before the Great White Thronos but will be presented before the "bema" or "dais" to receive rewards.

Tony, do you think also the believers are part of the great white throne?

Know ye not that we shall judge angels? [1Cor 6:3]


21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
--Rev 3


"throne"

G2362
θρόνος
thronos
thron'-os
From θράω thraō (to sit); a stately seat ("throne"); by implication power or (concretely) a potentate: - seat, throne.


Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

[Tony N]

Molly, I don't think so. We are going to be so busy administrating the grace of God among the sovereignties and authorities among the celestial realms we won't have time for this life. If anything the Circumcision believers who remain on the earth may be involved in the GWT but I don't know.

[Beloved Servant]

...but I don't know.

allelluiah

[Tony N]

...but I don't know.

allelluiah

Just like you to concentrate on the negatives rather than the positives. You act as if I think I am a know-it-all. Believe me, I don't know it all. But for you to concentrate on that to the exclusion of everything else is, well, sort of puerile.

Getting back to the lake of fire . . . it is death . . . not life. It is not a learning experience. It is not God. It is not Father. We are not the lake of fire.

[Molly]

...but I don't know.

well, It will be interesting for us if we are, because we have our instructions--


Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


And, for them--

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:




Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

[eaglesway]

Actually, it is the second death, which does not exactly comprehensively express exact sameness to the first death. There may be differences. There is not a lot written.